Is the tourism market dead/alive??

[K3nnyboy]

Hi All,

Was having a conversation over the dinner table with a friend of mine who's currently flying for the airline. I told him about my situation, which is being a CPL holder with low-hours + being away from the aviation industry for the past 4.5 years, he told me the easiest way to get myself back into it is to go bash around in the bush to build up hours, or become an instructor if i wanna stay in town.

However, a third option that came out under my suggestion would be starting a tourist joy flight business around town, that way you get to stay close to home and get to build up some hours at the same time. It sure sounds like a good idea, but just wanna know how realistic this idea is in regards to 1)Aircraft hire; 2)CASA regulation 3)Whether or not there's a market for it.

shoot me some ideas ladies & gents, anything would be greatly appreciated :ok:

KB

[training wheels]

You'll need an AOC to do this. I wouldn't know the first thing about applying for an AOC but I can imagine it would be quite a bureaucratic and costly process. If it was that easy mate, they'd be a heap of low time, fresh CPLs opening up shop all over the place doing joy flights. Fortunately (for the public), it's not.

[Xcel]

spare 20k and 500 PIC hours and 9 months commercial ops experience... happy days...

dont shoot me cant be bothered getting out part 82 to reference this...

[VH-XXX]

You'll need to do some market research on your area and the potential for passengers to see if you have an income source.

AOC you can buy but yes, it will cost a fair bit and you'll need the relevant experience and repore with CASA.

Not to mention airport usage agreement, cost of running the machine etc, all good fun to try and work it out.

That being said there are plenty that have already done it successfuly and plenty more that didn't.

[Aeroo]

As to whether or not there's a market for it, it depends greatly on where you are. Are there any particular attractions nearby so that you could market your flights as 'scenic', or would you just be taking people for a ride in the local training area? If you simply are taking them for a joy ride, what type of aircraft would you be using? People (after getting over the "It's old!" factor) would probably be much more interested in flying in a Tiger Moth, than in a C172. Are there many tourists coming through the area where you live? If so, keep in mind that there is usually an off-season that you'd have to see yourself through (eg. In Tasmania, a lot of activity providers close down over Winter because it's too cold for tourists to come across and play. They are trying to remedy this situation now by introducing a festival over Winter, which I think is a very good idea!).

Just a couple of things to think about.... Good luck! :)

[Pandanus]

I had an idea like that once; thankfully I didn't follow it and went up North instead. Ended up flying for an airline in my home city after a GA / regional airline career so I can speak with some experiences of my own.

A lot of effort and enormous expense for a marginal return in flying hours and financial return; more likely financial loss. Besides scenic hours around a city are not going to build a flying career. It'll just become an expensive pit-stop before you come to your senses. :{

Don't waste your time with instructing or anything else in the cities, just go up north, stick it out, follow the well worn path and you'll do alright. And if the first charter job is hard to get, go and get started as a jackaroo working for Stanbroke Pastoral or one of the other companies that own outback cattle stations for a year or two on a C182 until you can break into charter.

Scenic hours (like instructing) are low grade hours which can only lead to the next step (which is up North anyway). Why would you want to go to all that effort when you could much more easily just get a flying job which will lead you to better things?

I think the Castrol GTX mafia boss sums it all up nicely.

YouTube - Another Castrol GTX - Australian Commercial (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pE_HbVs3bCM)

Good luck and enjoy the ride
Pandanus ;)

[eocvictim]

I'm not willing to get into a huge debate over this however instructing hours are not worthless. I just got this from someone who was in constant contact with recruitment at a major (senior FI at said airlines training facility). They count the first 1,500-2,000hours instruction then the rest is worth 0; obviously this there is more to this but its essentially how they view it.

With 1,500-2,000 instruction you can get a good twin gig in a city and dont need to head north. I know this from first hand experience and I was one of about 6 FI to do the same within a 18month period.

[Kulwin Park]

Not quite dead - under the halfway mark of breaking even I would say ... Just my observations. KP

[werbil]

I did something like that about twenty years ago.

I found someone that was prepared to let me operate under their AOC (it was much easier back then) and took the financial risk. Once I obtained sufficient experience I got my own AOC (it was a hell of a lot easier back then). If you do good research and choose the right location, the right equipment, do sensational marketing and have a good run with the weather you may be able to avoid losing a small fortune.

Tourist work is very weather dependant and is usually seasonal. When the weather is good the tourists aren't there and when there's lots about the weather is usually crap. My experience is that in good weather a significant number of people go bush walking or to the beach and when the weather isn't great for those activities they'll think about scenic flights. If you do make a go of it others will probably try to copy you - at a fraction of the price - which is where good marketing is essential.

Would I do it again? From a career progression perspective a definite no - the hours built very slowly and I made a pittance. When I gave it away with just over 1000 hours in the logbook I left the industry for over ten years (apart from some casual charter work) before ending up flying floats in open water - which is brilliant flying but really wont lead anywhere. In my case lifestyle and life enjoyment won.

[K3nnyboy]

Operating under somebody else's AOC....hmmm that sounds interesting, does it mean I'd then become an employee of the company?? I do notice if I am working as a tourist charter pilot, I'd need to be checked by the Chief pilot every 6 months or so??

I'm based in Sydney, so I guess there's a few icons to fly around with.....

but Werbil mentioned a good point, life enjoyment and fulfilment.

Cool cool, thanks guys for the input,:ok: I'd do some deep thinking before taking my next step.

cheers~~

KB

[eocvictim]

If doing a V1 is all you want to do, why not just do Jollies for a flying school/local aeroclub or even try for the float plane mob on the harbour. You'd probably earn the same amount and you'll get similar hours without the headaches.

I'm actually surprised no one has mentioned Insurance. If you're a low time pilot with no outside experience, even if you get an AOC or approved to operate under someone else’s (which is going to be extremely difficult) insurance will be immense!

What type and whose aircraft are you planning on using? Joy flights are usually priced similarly to the solo rate of the aircraft so just hiring is out of the question. Even if it was an option we're back to insurance because the hirer's insurance wont cover you.

"If you want to make a small fortune in aviation, start with a large one".

[werbil]

Joy flights are usually priced similarly to the solo rate of the aircraft Well that pretty much sums up the state of the industry - it was certainly not the way that I operated.

To operate under someone's AOC you will be supervised by their chief pilot - after all it is their balls on the line. If you go down that path make sure there is written contract - otherwise if something happens you could very well find both insurance and CASA to be huge issues. Also make sure you personally check that aircraft used is insured for both hull and carriers liability and names the operator who's AOC you are operating under.

[Clearedtoreenter]

or become an instructor if i wanna stay in town.


Hate to be negative, but right now, with 3 major schools gone belly-up in Sydney, quite a few highly qualified and experienced instructors are now looking for work, not to mention newly qualified G3's... You might need to think carefully about that 'option' before committing thousands to it in the near future.

[wombat_keeper]

My suggestion would be to forget Instructing all together especially in the current economic climate.
If you don't wish to "head north " and really are committed to starting your own operation consider "teaming up " with a medium sized locally based road transport operation that provides regular services to regional areas throughout NSW.
Explain to them that you can coordinate same day on demand express delivery of anything that just cant wait i.e parcels, spare parts, medicines, medical records and even D.Gs that can't be shipped on RPT.

Explain that this Capability will make their company the number one transport contact throughout their area.
By working with an established entity you can share a reasonable portion of advertising , administration costs and tap into their wealth of client contacts from day one.
As far as the legalities go i know that CASA has (in the last 16 months) eased the requirements and in some circumstances even waived the requirement for an AOC for non pax operations.

With less red tape and admin costs than an pax carrying charter company you should be almost viable from day one.

[longrass]

"If you want to make a small fortune in aviation, start with a large one".

Hahahaha, that only applies to pilots come businessman, businessman come pilots start with a small fortune and generally leave with a large one.

I can think of 8 off the top of my head that have become multi millionaires within 10 years...

[K3nnyboy]

sorry for bumping this topic up guys, but I was doing a bit of random search on good old google, and found this company called "Sydney By Air", anyone know anything about them?? They operate a C208 out of YSBK~~