Icelandic Ash Cloud

[peterperfect]

With all the ATC closures due to this ash cloud, how is it affecting SAR cover ?

[airborne_artist]

And what about QRA? Will Ivan stay at home?

[Lukeafb1]

Just seen on BBC television, that as of 12.00hrs, all British airspace is closed to inbound and outbound commercial flights until at least 18.00hrs today.:confused:

[spekesoftly]

how is it affecting SAR cover ?According to Sky News at 1020 BST, RAF SAR flights will continue to operate.

Will Ivan stay at home?Hopefully they will scramble en masse, fly through the volcanic ash, wrecking the engines and grounding their fleet in the process! ;)

[philrigger]

;)

From BBC News on-line.

Fears over the ash forced the Great North Air Ambulance - covering parts of North Yorkshire - to be grounded, but the Royal Air Force said it would maintain its search and rescue operations.

An RAF spokesman said: "We will continue to provide full search and rescue cover, however we will consider all requests we get on a case by case basis.

[Vie sans frontieres]

And what about QRA? Will Ivan stay at home?


Haven't you heard? They have no plans to invade. Welcome to the post-Cold War world.

(Yes, I know, Russian Bears. Zzzz)

[ORAC]

From Army to RAF to RN in 4 sentences...... :ugh::ugh:

The Independent: Army helicopter flies patient from Scotland (http://www.independent.co.uk/incoming/army-helicopter-flies-patient-from-scotland-1945667.html)

A critically ill patient had to be flown from Scotland to London by military helicopter today after volcanic ash grounded most planes in the UK.

Only an RAF Sea King helicopter was suitable to make the journey after the volcano exploding in Iceland led to restrictions being imposed on UK airspace.

The female patient was taken by ambulance from hospital in Dunfermline, Fife, to HMS Gannet at Prestwick. From there a Royal Navy Sea King helicopter flew her to London, landing in Regent's Park at around 9am. An ambulance then took her to University College Hospital.

The incident was organised by the Aeronautical Rescue Coordination Centre (ARCC) at RAF Kinloss which was asked to help at 3.13am.

An RAF spokesman said: "The ARCC would not usually task a helicopter from Scotland so far south but due to the air traffic control (ATC) restrictions caused by volcanic ash from an erupting volcano in Iceland there were no civilian aircraft or military fixed wings options available. If we had not taken this patient by helicopter then the only other option was a road ambulance."

The Scottish Ambulance Service said it took a female patient from Queen Margaret Hospital in Dunfermline to Prestwick for transfer to London.

Flights were grinding to a halt today as ash from Iceland's volcanic eruption moved into UK airspace. Airports faced massive disruption with flights in and out of all Scottish airports suspended, and those further south shutting or suspending flights during the day. The ash cloud is damaging to aircraft due to its abrasive effect on jet engines.

The RAF said it would continue to provide full search and rescue cover but would restrict that to operational flights only, and would consider each request for assistance on a case by case basis.

[Grumpy106]

Day off for Boulmer then!

[rock34]

Is this ash cloud affecting military low level flying? I was under the impression that this cloud was quite high up?

[Descend to What Height?!?]

Look at the red line on the charts in the link, and you will see there is a risk down to lower levels.

http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/aviation/vaac/data/VAG_1271331761.png

Met Office: Volcanic Ash Advisory Centres (http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/aviation/vaac/)

[Tankertrashnav]

One bonus - at least it's knocked the flipping election off the top of the news schedules. :ok: I feared only a major air disaster or terrorist attack would do that.

[[email protected]]

All around the country, mil aircraft are being wheeled into hangars to protect them whilst the sun shines brightly in the sky!!!

If it is safe to fly on SAROPs, it is safe to fly on training. If it is not safe to fly because of the ash then it is not accpetable to do SAROPS either.

Some classic military decision making today:ugh:

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Duty of care and acute risk aversion perhaps? :D

[Gainesy]

Early POETS perhaps?:)

[Wrathmonk]

such a thing should ground the RAF

and the RN ..... and the AAC :ugh:

[TEEEJ]

Rock34 wrote

Is this ash cloud affecting military low level flying? I was under the impression that this cloud was quite high up?

Harriers went through the Mach Loop, in Wales around 11 o'clock.

TJ

[RUCAWO]

Irish Coastguard S-61 has been flying around here ,Newtownards, for the last hour or so.

[Monkey Madness]

Despite the order from HQ Air to ground all but CAT A, CAT B and QRA flights from 1200Z, RAF Odiham and RAF Benson were still flying at 4pm, as was RAF Northolt.

[wetdreamdriver]

understand the isles of scilly skybus service was still running and lots of puddle jumpers still flying around in the afternoon - perhaps then it is on comair above 10000' that's grounded?

[Saintsman]

It didn't seem to bother the Chinook flying over Basingstoke about one o'clock, but then again, they've got EAPS. ;)

[r supwoods]

Living in the South East we have regularly been covered in Saharan sand ... didn't this need a suspension of air travel?

[Mechta]

So if no powered flights are using controlled airspace, can glider pilots go where they like now?:}

[gijoe]

Sandpit Shuttles? Is the Gateway starting to fill up?

[andyy]

ORAC, Re your 1203 yesterday, post #7, I think You'll find that it was an RN Helicopter. I am quite sure that other Services could have accomplished the task with their helicopters but a bit of accuracy (or pointing out the inaccuracies of others) would not go amiss.

[vecvechookattack]

I seem to remember from O Level Geography that the biggest danger is a volcano called Katla. Is this eruption close to Katla?

[Molemot]

This from elsewhere....not too joyful!!

Global cooling: What happens if the Iceland volcano blows

The potential eruption of Iceland's volcano Katla would likely send the world, including the USA, into an extended deep freeze.

"When Katla went off in the 1700s, the USA suffered a very cold winter," says Gary Hufford, a scientist with the Alaska Region of the National Weather Service. "To the point, the Mississippi River froze just north of New Orleans and the East Coast, especially New England, had an extremely cold winter. Depending on a new eruption, Katla could cause some serious weather changes."

Eyjafjallajokull, the Icelandic volcano .... isn't the direct problem. It's Katla, the noisier neighbor, that's the concern. If lava flowing from Eyjafjallajokull melts the glaciers that hold down the top of Katla, then Katla could blow its top, pumping gigantic amounts of ash into the atmosphere.

Scientists say history has proven that whenever the Eyjafjallajokull volcano erupts, Katla always follows -- the only question is how soon.

"If it (Eyjafjallajokull) continues to belch, then you worry," says Hufford......

[melmothtw]

SAR, QRA, and emergency medical flights unaffected.

Airbridges to Afghan and Falklands suspended with 4 aircraft currently held up in the system (2 stuck at Akrotiri)

Emergency evacuation out of Afghan going to unaffected coalition nations

[TheSmiter]

Global cooling: What happens if the Iceland volcano blows

Thanks for that Moley, really cheered me up.

Do you mind if I lie down under the kitchen table and drink heavily?

:uhoh:

[Gainesy]

Nice to see the USA includes itself in "the World" then.

Couple of light GA types swanning around n. of Shoreham.

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

Still not a speck of dust/ash in the sky here!

Duncs:ok:

[RS30]

Nice day for it but my trip scrubbed due to the ash! Stacked early and looked up at a sky completely devoid of contrails. Must be the first time that has happened over the UK since the 50s. Felt like being in the stone age...bring back the jets!

[GreenKnight121]

Finnish fighter jets damaged by volcanic cloud (http://www2.canada.com/topics/news/story.html?id=2914603)


Finnish fighter jets damaged by volcanic cloud


AFP

Published: Friday, April 16, 2010
HELSINKI - Finnish fighter jets which flew through the volcanic dust covering much of Europe suffered damage and the air force warned Friday the cloud could have a significant impact on planes.

The air force F-18 Hornet jets were on training flights in northern Finland on Thursday morning, when airspace was still open, and the engines were later found to contain fine, volcanic ash dust.

"Based on the pictures, it was discovered that even short flights in ash dust may cause significant damage to an airplane's engine," the Finnish Defence Forces said in a statement.

Images taken inside one Hornet engine with a fibroscope camera indicated that the heat of the engine - around 1,000 degrees Celcius - had melted the ash inside the engine, blocking ventilation channels. "Blockages of ventilation channels caused by melting ash lead engine components to overheat and material to weaken," it said, adding this could fracture rotating engine parts. In the worst case, the weakening of component materials could cause "parts to detach and the engine to be destroyed," it said.

The Hornets exposed to the dust from the eruption of a volcano in Iceland would be checked thoroughly, with "at least some" of the engines detached and sent for further studies and repair.

The air force would keep a Hawk combat aircraft equipped with a tank to take atmospheric samples on standby to assist civilian authorities as necessary, it said, adding that operative military flights would continue normally. Samples taken by the plane, which collects particle samples in a filter in the tank, could be used to analyze how much ash dust was in the air.

A huge cloud of volcanic ash from Iceland has spread over large part of Europe, shutting airports and forcing the cancellation of thousands of flights. Finland's airports were shut Thursday at midnight and flights are not due to resume until Saturday afternoon at earliest.
© Agence France-Presse 2010

PICTURES: Finnish F-18 engine check reveals effects of volcanic dust-16/04/2010-London-Flightglobal.com (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/04/16/340727/pictures-finnish-f-18-engine-check-reveals-effects-of-volcanic.html)

PICTURES: Finnish F-18 engine check reveals effects of volcanic dust
By Craig Hoyle

The Finnish air force (http://www.ilmavoimat.fi/) has released images showing the effects of volcanic dust ingestion from inside the engines of a Boeing F-18 (http://www.flightglobal.com/landingpage/hornet.html) Hornet fighter, while it prepares to make inspections on several additional aircraft.

Five of the air force’s Hornets were involved in a training exercise on the morning of 15 April, just hours before the imposition of airspace restrictions due to the ash cloud spreading from a major volcanic eruption in Iceland.

One aircraft’s engines have been inspected so far using a boroscope, with melted ash clearly visible on its inside surface. The air force decided to release the images to show the potentially damaging effects of current flight activities, says chief information officer Joni Malkamäki.
“The images show that short-term flying can cause substantial damage to an aircraft engine,” the air force says. Continued operation could lead to overheating and potentially pose a threat to the aircraft and its pilot, it adds.

Checks will soon be made on the other four aircraft involved, and some engines will be removed to help Finnish company Patria – which provides in-service support for the nation’s F-18 fleet – to assess the extent of any damage caused. Its fleet comprises 55 single-seat F-18Cs and seven two-seat trainers, with each powered by two General Electric F404-402 engines.

Finland halted air force training flights yesterday, but the air force will continue to perform operational sorties as required, such as air policing missions and national security tasks.

One of its BAE Systems Hawk jet trainers also flew from Kauhava air base twice yesterday carrying an air sampling pod which collected dust from the atmosphere at various altitudes.

The air force is sharing the gathered information with the Finnish civil aviation authorities, and says it will stage more such flights as requested.http://www.flightglobal.com/assets/getAsset.aspx?ItemID=33774

http://www.flightglobal.com/assets/getAsset.aspx?ItemID=33775

[Gainesy]

Any plane-spotters topped themselves yet?:)

Anyone got the pix of the sand-blasted engines' innards from GW1? A few folk were caught out by sandstorms if I remember correctly.

[Tourist]

Don't see why this would worry any of our helicopters fitted with sand filters

[scarecrow450]

Any plane-spotters topped themselves yet?http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif

nearly !! not that I'm a spotter of course ! :hmm:

DHFS canx all flghts friday

[Molemot]

Global cooling: What happens if the Iceland volcano blows

Thanks for that Moley, really cheered me up.

Do you mind if I lie down under the kitchen table and drink heavily?




Smiter, my plan exactly!!!

[TheChitterneFlyer]

Tourist,

Sand and volcanic dust are two entirely different particles. Volcanic dust is similar to talcum powder... no sand filter is going to filter this sort of stuff.

[cornish-stormrider]

yet they manage with other very fine sand particles.

Also remember that chopper donks are a lot less highly strung than your average bypass thunderchariot.

RB199's get mullered by sand - I'd imagine EJ200's and prattle and whineys efforts suffer as well.

Your average french train engine just chugs along

Go Puma, Go Puma, Go Puma!

It wouldn't affect a scramjet so Aurora shoud be fine, I'm informed by the tinfoilers it will be overflying today :E

[Tourist]

TheChitterneFlyer

Methinks that you do not know what sort of filter helicopters have nowadays.
Me also thinks that you should go see the sand in Afghanistan and then talk to me about fine talcum powder.

[Winch-control]

Reminded me of the Train stops.. Yes sir, little bit of snow on the line, short delay!
Little bit of "talcum powder" falls out somewhere in the near vicinity of a UK Mil a/c.....and err yep grounded...
And whose to say eaps won't remove it? has it been trialed??:ugh:
Don't think so! :rolleyes:

[minigundiplomat]

Me also thinks that you should go see the sand in Afghanistan and then talk to me about fine talcum powder.



Overated. Just take our word for it.

[kiwi grey]

According to the reports, the last time this volcano let loose (1821?), it went off intermittently for nearly two years.

So what happens if London, Paris, Brussels, etc., etc. are still closed in a fortnight? or a month? or three months? You guys could probably fly to Madrid or someplace and get home by train, but I have a colleague visiting her daughter in the UK, she was due to fly out Friday and be back at work Monday.

How is she and thousands of others going to get home?
Will Prestwick become the major UK airport?:eek:
Or will Air NZ flights from here terminate in Marseilles or Toulouse and SLF have to get the TGV to London via Paris?:eek:
And how long before airport companies are in receivership - no landing fees, no car-park fees, no duty-free sales, but the finance costs continue, and so do a portion of all the other costs?This is actually potentially a desperately serious situation, far worse than the GFC.

[Robert Cooper]

If the volcano next door goes off in sympathy, then I guess all bets are off.
Bob C:uhoh:

[GreenKnight121]

kiwi grey...

I have a two-word answer for you.

Queen Mary.

If'n you don't like that one, then I say... Holland America.


Cruise liners become ocean liners once again.... Bring Back the Blue Riband!!!

[Royalistflyer]

If the volcanoes keep going ....... we could lease the RAF out to Australia ......

[BEagle]

I heard on the wireless at the end of last week that the Eyjafjallajoekull eruption had already released more CO2 and CO into the atmosphere than humans had in the previous 100 years.

That should give the huggy-fluffy warmists something to worry about!

Major airlines such as ba, KLM and Lufthansa have already begun to challenge the 'ash-ist' doom-mongers about the validity of their computer modelling - sampling flights over Europe have found nothing of any real concern.

A Dornier over the North Sea did find some gaseous layers and a trace of ash - but perhaps nothing worse than you get downwind of Didcot in a summertime inversion.

Are the ash-ists taking over from the pig flu, chicken flu and millenium bug alarmists, one has to wonder?

[Tankertrashnav]

Duty of care and acute risk aversion perhaps? :D


Think that's possibly the case GBZ. I see Lufthansa and another airline have done a couple of probing flights in the last 24 hours. Are we, possibly Boscombe, not doing something similar? Surely it's worth a go in an ejector seat equipped aircraft to see the affects on turbine blades etc? Or are we so risk averse now that not even a test pilot would consider it?

[Tourist]

BEagle

"I heard on the wireless at the end of last week that the Eyjafjallajoekull eruption had already released more CO2 and CO into the atmosphere than humans had in the previous 100 years."

Just confirm that you are aware that not everything on the wireless bears any resemblance to the truth? Some of it may, in fact, be total arse gravy.

[vernon99]

So how much has it put out since it started smoking last week? I am sure it is a lot, but can anyone reliably calculate it?(I suppose where the climate change people are concerned, reliable data isn't that important)
Does anyone know what % of CO2 released per year is from humans vs nature? I mean all this green taxes etc, what's the point if we only produce say 10% of output. This volcano must have knocked a large hole in this years figures.

[Thelma Viaduct]

Gas studies at volcanoes worldwide have helped volcanologists tally up a global volcanic CO2 budget in the same way that nations around the globe have cooperated to determine how much CO2 is released by human activity through the burning of fossil fuels. Our studies show that globally, volcanoes on land and under the sea release a total of about 200 million tonnes of CO2 annually.
This seems like a huge amount of CO2, but a visit to the U.S. Department of Energy's Carbon Dioxide Information Analysis Center (CDIAC) website (Carbon Dioxide Information Analysis Center (http://cdiac.ornl.gov/)) helps anyone armed with a handheld calculator and a high school chemistry text put the volcanic CO2 tally into perspective. Because while 200 million tonnes of CO2 is large, the global fossil fuel CO2 emissions for 2003 tipped the scales at 26.8 billion tonnes. Thus, not only does volcanic CO2 not dwarf that of human activity, it actually comprises less than 1 percent of that value.

Which produces more CO2, volcanic or human activity? (http://hvo.wr.usgs.gov/volcanowatch/2007/07_02_15.html)

[onetrack]

The situation must definitely be getting serious, and the ripples are spreading in the pond. I got an advertising email from Flight Centre this morning, and the incredible part about that email, was that it was advertising RAIL JOURNEYS!! Yes, the 3 DAY RAIL SALE offer, is on from today, from Flight Centre. There wasn't a mention of a single airfare deal, to anywhere, on the whole page ..... :uhoh:

Ahh, well. At least I guess I can look forward to....

1. Cheaper fuel via lower oil prices....
2. Less gallivanting around by pollies, at MY expense.... :)

[Shackman]

I see a plan to start an 'evacuation' from the beaches of Dunkirk (well maybe the harbour) has fallen foul of our gallant Borders Agency. A few little ships are making the trip to bring back as many people as possible, but the B**** A**** are insisting they pre manifest (or whatever the marine paperwork is) and name all those they are bringing back before leaving the UK. Hooray for Dan Snow and thank god these paper gods weren't around almost exactly 70 years ago.

[Hueymeister]

I'm stuck in San Francisco/Vegas...pse send food parcels c/o hueymeister, Bellagio Suites, Las Vegas, NEVADA:cool::}

[ricardian]

Ahh, well. At least I guess I can look forward to....

1. Cheaper fuel via lower oil prices....
2. Less gallivanting around by pollies, at MY expense....
I'd love some cheap petrol - I filled up on Wednesday and paid 135.4p per litre.

[amb_211085]

This volcano must have knocked a large hole in this years figures.

Ah well, just take it into account in Icelands Carbon Credits for this year!

[Pontius Navigator]

I see a plan to start an 'evacuation' from the beaches of Dunkirk (well maybe the harbour) has fallen foul of our gallant Borders Agency. A few little ships are making the trip to bring back as many people as possible, but the B**** A**** are insisting they pre manifest (or whatever the marine paperwork is) and name all those they are bringing back before leaving the UK. Hooray for Dan Snow and thank god these paper gods weren't around almost exactly 70 years ago.

Shack, my first thoughts too but then I though well done Les Frogs (not UK BA). If any Tom, Dick or Dan can zip across in a dinghy and fetch a few 'mates' back then so too can Ahmed, Mustapha and Alamalcan bring some too and there are plenty who have been stuck in Calais for months :}

[Lima Juliet]

It seems the majority of "scaremongering" from the DFT/CAA/NATS/MetOffice players are based upon the BA B747 losing 4 engines in 1982. However, they always fail to mention that the B747 flew for a prolonged period through the middle of a very big and unknown ash cloud, it was a dark moonless night, there were hints that they were in an ash cloud for some time (but it was not a well known phenomenum to crews at the time) and they still managed to land safely (although it was a very close thing!).

Here is a snippet of the event that might enlighten some of those that believe all the hype...

On the clear, moonless night of 24 June 1982, Scheduled BA flight 009 took off from sweltering Kuala Lumpur bound for Australia. There were 249 passengers on board the plane, which was laden with 91,000kg of fuel for the five-hour flight to Perth.

At the controls was Captain Eric Moody (pictured recently). As they levelled out at the 747’s cruising altitude of 11,300 metres, the crew ate their evening meal, just as the flight passed south of the city of Jakarta.

His dinner eaten, Captain Moody left the cabin and made his way down the spiral stairs to the first class section in search of an unoccupied toilet; but before he could find one he was called back. Moody remembers noticing as he turned some little puffs of what seemed to be smoke issuing from vents on the floor. There was also an odour that reminded him of the smell left behind after electrical sparks have flown.

When Moody reached the cockpit the crew had already switched on the seatbelt signs and the engine igniters, to support the combustion of the fuel, just in case. The windscreens were lit up with the most impressive displays of St Elmo’s fire the captain had ever seen. The weather radar, though, showed nothing unusual. Then the First Officer pointed out that all the engines appeared to be lit from within by electrical discharges. In moments, the St Elmo’s fire changed to something resembling tracer bullets. Almost immediately, Roger the Senior Engineer called: “Engine failure number four”.

There was a pause. Then he announced: “Engine failure number two….three’s gone…. they’ve all gone.”

Moody said: “OK Roger, put out a Mayday”.

13.44 “Jakarta, Jakarta, Mayday, Mayday Speedbird 9. We’ve lost all four engines. We’re leaving 370.”

[drustsonoferp]

@Beagle.

I don't know how neutral the assumptions the Environmental Association are, but from the Grauniad: According to the Environmental Transport Association, by the end of today the flight ban will have prevented the emission of some 2.8m tonnes of carbon dioxide since the first flights were grounded.

The volcanic eruption has released carbon dioxide, but the amount is dwarfed by the savings. Based on readings taken by scientists during the first phase of Eyjafjallajokull activity last month, the website Information is Beautiful calculated the volcano has emitted about 15,000 tonnes of CO2 each day.

[GreenKnight121]

And BA flight 009 regained all 4 when it got down a ways, and made it into the airport with adequate power for flight.

[airborne_artist]

And BA flight 009 regained all 4 when it got down a ways, and made it into the airport with adequate power for flight.

While covering 90nm across the ground and losing >20,000'. Fine at 35,000' over the ocean, but at 18,000' over land you'd be a bit screwed.

[SilsoeSid]

the website Information is Beautiful calculated the volcano has emitted about 15,000 tonnes of CO2 each day.

15,000 x 6 days = 90,000 tonnes
90,000,000,000 grammes

2000 km travelled, so 90,000,000,000g / 2000km = 45,000,000 g/km

Well, that puts my cars 219g/km into perspective and I've not used it for a few days!

[SilsoeSid]

Please correct me on this, but didn't BA flight 009 fly into a full volcanic ash cloud at night c180 km from the volcano, as opposed to a clear blue skied day, thousands of miles away from the source?

Also KLM Flight 867, another 747, flew into the plume of the erupting Mount Redoubt, again c180 km from the volcano, causing all four engines to fail.


Is there not some kind of picture emerging there?

[Postman Plod]

and the 80-odd other flights that have had serious incidents due to volcanic ash in the last 20 years? and the Finnish F18's? Finland being on the whole clear of ash:

BBC News - Iceland volcano in maps (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8625813.stm)

Yeh, they're scaremongering based on 1 flight :ugh:

Currently, world-wide advice from ICAO is based on engine and airframe
manufacturers stating that aircraft should not be exposed to any volcanic
ash.

If you go fishing (test flight) you might not catch a fish (ash) , but it
does not mean there are no fish (ash) in the sea. (air)

The Daily Mash - MET OFFICE FINALLY BLAMED (http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/environment/met-office-finally-blamed-201004202655/)

[Double Zero]

All the tests seem to be using 747's, as Sid says there is a pattern; is this because of Captain Eric Moody's experience, or because modifications took place as a result ?!

Also if there's a low level risk ( I thought it was medium / rare ) what about the Ark Royal's Olympus engines ?

Different much less fussy kit, or should I offer to lend mast, sails and 5hp outboard ?

Yours,

Master & Commander ( Anderson 22' )...

[Hugh Spencer]

I don't understand what is going on because at 9.45 am this morning on a website, KLM and Lufthansa aircraft were flying over UK airspace but no sign of any British planes - RadarVirtuel.com with a Volcano Ashes Layer (http://www.radarvirtuel.com)

[diginagain]

Its quite possible, Hugh, that those aircraft flying in the 'safe' air over our airspace climbed to that altitude in air also considered to be 'safe', while our own gallant pilots would have to climb up through 'less safe' air.

[Ray Dahvectac]

The same website shows a significant amount of traffic over central Europe too.

While there is no significant ash above FL200 over most of Europe (according to this link (http://metoffice.com/aviation/vaac/data/VAG_1271741319.png)) there is still a cloud from SFC-FL200.

So have most European airlines just decided to ignore the warnings while we Brits are happy to wait in ever-lengthening queues for a trip on Grey Funnel Lines from Spain to Portsmouth? Is it a Nu Labor conspiracy in an attempt to prove they can take firm [Naval] action when needed? :ugh:

[Blacksheep]

climbed to that altitude in air also considered to be 'safe'Probably shipped to Lithuania by road from Germany and Holland for their take-off and climb. :rolleyes:

[Wander00]

By can someone explain why the ash cloud is coming from the north, but that it is Scottish and some northern airports that have been open, albeit temporarily. Has the CAA and NATS got it in for Heathrow and Gatwick?

[diginagain]

Perhaps a suitable analogy would be of a gent standing at a urinal. The bloke is in Iceland, the rim of the bowl is the Land of the North British, and Heathrow and Gatwick are the drain. Gravity has an effect on the stream, passing over the rim to fall on Heathrow.........

[Rossian]

.....WANDER00 why don't you take a look at the Met Office web site and go to the synoptic charts. Take a look at where Eyafjallajokul is and see where the airflow takes the detritus.
All will become clear. And there are some good graphics of where the densest parts of the ash clouds are.

The Ancient Mariner

[Thelma Viaduct]

By can someone explain why the ash cloud is coming from the north, but that it is Scottish and some northern airports that have been open, albeit temporarily. Has the CAA and NATS got it in for Heathrow and Gatwick?

Think about it fella :ok:

[Tankertrashnav]

CONTRAILS!!!!

I live about 3nm NW of Culdrose. Just standing outside at around 1930 local chatting with my neighbour, an Observer instructor, when we saw contrails approaching from the west. Usually would pass without comment as we live under an airway (cant remember what it's called) but this is the first I've seen since last week. Aircraft passed LND VOR and a few miles later executed a couple of very wide orbits and then disappeared to the North. While this was happening a second aircraft came up behind, and this one turned 90 left and also disappeared North, not a manoeuvre I've seen before

Were these test flights, or a couple of the transatlantic inbounds I heard about on the news buggering about over Cornwall while somebody finally decided where they were to go? Be interesting to find out.

[Liffy 1M]

Several eastbound transatlantic BA flights have diverted into Shannon this evening. Perhaps you saw some of these.

[Tankertrashnav]

Interesting Liffy, thanks, that was one of the theories we came up with. Question is, why did they let them get as far as LND before diverting them - and what was that orbit all about? Sounds like indecision at some level

[vecvechookattack]

as we live under an airway (cant remember what it's called)

You should have asked

chatting with my neighbour, an Observer instructor

As a QOI he would certainly know the number of the airway







All airports open


BBC News - UK airports set to reopen (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8633597.stm)

[JAVELINBOY]

Was looking at RadarVirtuel tonight and saw North American flights put into holding pattern south end of the Isle of Man then diverted to Shannon.
One New York Heathrow flight left the holding pattern then flew direct to Paris, it was listed as a East Midlands destination.
BA ex Lagos orbiting Cherbourg tonight as well

[advocatusDIABOLI]

OK, I Can't constrain myself any longer. (Ref- Island Volcanoes)

I think this is, and will be reported in History, as 'Risk Aversion' gone Mad!

We, in the aviation field, have quite rightly striven for better safety, but there might come a point, where 'x' meets 'y' and there is no possible progress in 'that' direction?

In that statement, I mean, that different possible means to advance or maintain safety should be explored, and more importantly, the general public assumption that flying can be 100% safe should be activley squashed!

That premis, should also be taken to the military (UK), as In my view, way too much time is dedicated to proving why we can't do things (RTS's) and little effort is put into why or what we CAN do.

Most Aviation Safety effort is purely negative; If It doesn't happen, it's no risk, The Ultimately safe Air Force Doesn't Fly.

Personaly, I think a much more pragmatic and engaged approach is required:

Make RTS's what they were intended to be- Pilots documents, for proper guidance and easily read.

Produce, an aircraft 'Legal Use Document' if required, separately, but not at Sqn Level.

FRC / FCCs- Guidance, NOT law, but accurate, and up to date.

Acceptance of all liabilities and risks falling through the above, openly accepted by HMG.

Allow full and free flight through any kind of 'Monster Thunderstorm', but Close the whole UKADR when there is a whiff of pumiss........ Geeeeezzzz


Advo

PS- Don't PM, I'm too bored of the Election to respond. Sorry.

[vecvechookattack]

Make RTS's what they were intended to be- Pilots documents, for proper guidance and easily read.

You are confusing the RTS with the Aircrew Manual (Pilots notes). The RTS was never designed for aircrew.... otherwise it would have been written by aircrew and be easy to read. As it stands, its written by gingerbeers and is complete bo££ocks.