Helicopters and Volcanic Ash?

[coatimundi]

It's an interesting morning out here in the North Sea...:bored:

As my door is being battered down by worried helicopter passengers asking what's going on, can I prevail upon you professionals for some answers to give them?

Why aren't helicopters flying when we understand that the volcanic ash is at a high level (just heard its at 6000m and above on the news).

I presume the ash would have exactly the same effect on helicopter turbines as on jet a/c? Also can it be confirmed that there is still no method of monitoring volcanic ash from your flight decks?

Personally I'd much rather you didn't fly if there was any question of problems being caused by the current situation, but others less aware need to be given good reasons why they will be stuck offshore for the next few days.

Thanks for any enlightenment :ok:

[helimutt]

All you need to tell them is that due to a volcanic ash cloud, it has been decided that airspace is closed until further notice, and this is being done for the safety of travellers. It's a saftey issue, surely that's all they need to know? Tell them to check the NATS website if they want more details, even though its just crashed due to everyone logging in!

It's not your fault, not your problem, and it's all part and parcel of air travel, ie 'Time to spare? Go by air' !!!:ok:

Wonder if North Sea pilots will get the day off? :E

[101BOY]

BBC News reporting one of the northern air ambulances are grounded - I think they said Yorkshire.

[helimutt]

now I can understand airliners being grounded due to the level that the ash is at, and understandable if there was ash falling from the sky, a la Pompeii, :eek: but to ground helicopters too, which can quite legally fly around at 500' quite slowly in comparison to the big jets, just seems a bit of overkill to me, especially from where i'm sitting, I can see for over 10k easily. ;)

it's just someone somewhere afraid to say it's ok to go. :E

[JimBall]

Well, it's made the security much easier for the live debate today..........

[Senior Pilot]

A Royal Air Force Sea King helicopter was forced to fly a critically ill patient from Scotland to London following the cancellations. She was flow from HMS Gannet at Prestwick to Regent's Park, then on to University College Hospital.
An RAF spokesman said: "We will continue to provide full search and rescue cover, however we will consider all requests we get on a case by case basis.


BBC News (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8621407.stm)

Apart from the likelihood that it would have been a Royal Navy Sea King from HMS Gannet, how is the volcanic ash affecting other Rotorheads in Europe, as well as UK?

[IRRenewal]

which can quite legally fly around at 500' quite slowly in comparison to the big jets,

Not a helicopter man myself, but I would have thought that even if you are flying quite slowly your wings aren't. Would that be a cause for concern?

[Agaricus bisporus]

Surely if there is sufficient ash in the air to damage low level aircraft there is going to be horrendous health problems as this stuff gets into people's lungs?

But as the event is several hundred miles away surely all the particulate matter fell out a long way off and very little is falling from the high level dust cloud over UK?

Is this just more risk-averse overkill

[Senior Pilot]

With a proper particle separator/filter, I would not have expected volcanic ash to be any different to fly through than desert sand, bushfire smoke/embers, or any of the other conditions that are part and parcel of a helicopter pilot's life.

Not all of our machines have part seps, but there should be no reason why those that have, be prevented from flying: bearing in mind that the current NOTAM only restricts IFR flights.

[Tailboom]

How does this effect VFR Helicopter flights I was going to Ireland in a turbine on friday

[Senior Pilot]

Current NOTAM

A VOLCANIC ASH CLOUD, ORIGINATING IN ICELAND, IS HAVING A MAJOR IMPACT AFFECTING UK AIRSPACE. UK AREA AFFECTED:
610000N 0100000W 610000N 0000000W 600000N 0000000W
570000N 0050000E 550000N 0050000E 530409N 0031619W
521700N 0004400W 512200N 0041300W 521000N 0062900W
535605N 0053533W 563400N 0040700W 591000N 0052400W
603243N 0100000W 610000N 0100000W SFC/UNL
OPR SHOULD REFER TO VA ADVISORY 20100415/0600 FOR FURTHER INFO.
IN ACCORDANCE WITH ICAO VOLCANIC ASH CONTINGENCY PLAN, NO IFR CLEARANCE WILL BE ISSUED FOR PENETRATION OF THE FORECAST CONTAMINATED AREA THAT LIES WITHIN UK AIRSPACE.

Note: No IFR clearance

[Chris P Bacon]

For Rolls Royce 250 operators, there is CSL 1095 (C20 series) issued for flying in volcanic ash.

[charlieDontSurf]

In Norway they have closed the entire Norwegian airspace, even the SAR and HEMS are grounded!
The only SAR machine available now is the one at Svalbard....

This is kind of crazy!

"We are put back 50 years" is the headline:- Vi er satt 50 år tilbake i tid | ABC Nyheter (http://www.abcnyheter.no/node/107944)
"Dramatic when the helicopter can't fly because of volcanic ash":
- Dramatisk når helikopteret ikkje får flyge på grunn av vulkanaske - Møre og Romsdal - NRK Nyhende (http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/distrikt/more_og_romsdal/1.7081347)

The airspace will open on friday, if not later.

"Volcanic ash is hard to detect from an aircraft, and is not visible on the weatherradar.
The most dangerous aspect is that the particles'(ash) meltingpoint is lower than the turbines' working-temp. This leads to the ash melting to a thick, lava-like fluid, that slowly floats into the engine and causing it to shut down.
The ashparticles are very hard, with sharp edges, effectively sand-blowing leading edges.
The windshields are most vulnerable, turning matte, and the pilot's loose visibility."

-From the Norwegian Meterological Institute.

Where I am, the weather is:
METAR 151120Z 02006KT 320V050 9999 FEW030 BKN055 09/02 Q1015

If there is such a danger involved in flying helicopters VFR, then the air should be so saturated with volcanic ash that it would be dangerous to stay outside without any protection (face-mask etc), wouldn't it????:eek:

[JimL]

All in line with the contingency plan - why try to double guess the experts?

http://www.paris.icao.int/documents_open/download.php?maincategory=48&subcategory=63&file=EUR_VA_CP_September_2009.pdf

Jim

[S76Heavy]

To me closing the entire airspace is a CYA move. Best way to prevent accidents is to not let anybody fly..

However, like not all humidity and low temperatures are "icing conditions",there must be something about the concentration of ash particles that determines whether or not it becomes a safety hazard.

Flying VMC/VFR means you should be able to "see and avoid". To prevent the general public from flying VFR is something I can understand, but to totally ban SAR/HEMS on the basis of perceived safety/unsafety seems excessive.
Especially when helicopters are suited to land at the merest hint of (engine) trouble, with no doubt a highly alert crew under the circumstances.

But hey, I am just a pilot..apparently I cannot be trusted to make sensible decisions in todays PC world.

[JimBall]

Jetstream forecasts show that the ash will be taken east and south away from UK. Turkey & Greece by Saturday.

[Mick85]

Something you need to consider is the cover that will be provided under a warranty or service plan if engines are contaminated having flown against, prevailing advice. That is why I am grounded. There is no cover and a large bill could result.

[S76Heavy]

Mick85, I understand.
For a commercial operator or a private hire certainly something to be taken very seriously.

But operations with the aim to aid those in peril, like SAR and HEMS have another cost/benefit analysis. Certainly the engines would suffer (how much? we don't really know as we know nothing about the concentration levels, especially at low altitudes) but would that be worth it if you can save a life?
Which does not mean you have to risk 3 to 6 lives to save one, but that is why a responsible crew should have the option of weighing the information and make sensible decisions. Mitigate the ever present risks is what it is all about.

I just think that blanket restrictions usually are very shortsighted and stupid.
And aviation seems to suffer more and more from them.

[FloaterNorthWest]

The Isle of Man has closed its airspace to ALL aircraft both VFR and IFR with a 12 mile radius of the coast.

Great for me but not so great for my Boss!

[nigelh]

I am planning flying vfr London to Yorkshire this afternoon ....i am still not aware of any ban on vfr ???

[Tailboom]

Well ive just this minute come off the phone to Cardiff Tower and they are saying that VFR is ok, they have suggested I read Notam H902/10 issued this morning.

Just spoken to Maintenance Org to look at the Rolls Royce flight in volcanic dust advice and that basically says avoid it if you can but have more compressor washes and watch out for reduced power !!

[tacr2man]

The Thames Valley Police chopper is still flying as its hovering over the remains of the Cherwell Valley Services which has been generating its own plume for the last couple of hours http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif

[charlieDontSurf]

I started to think about today's total ban of SAR and HEMS ops in Norway.

Where I am now, there's blue skies 360 degrees as long as you can see, but SAR and HEMS ops are grounded because of volcanic ash.
The reason is that they can't operate if IFR traffic isn't allowed. But now it's daylight and perfect VFR weather...

The society today is extremely safety-focused, and it's always "safety first". But are we fooling ourselves by beeing too cautious? What risk is involved in flying VFR at 2000ft when you can't even see trace of volcanic ash in the atmosphere? Are the SAR or HEMS crew at a great risk if they fly VFR now?
Surely, the pasients who would need help now won't get as fast to the hospital, and won't get a doctor out to the accident site. Not to mention if something happens offshore at an oil-platform, or to a ship...

Are we securing ourselves to death by jeapordising potential patients' security over something that maybe isn't that dangerous?
What if a train disaster happened up in a remote area now? I guess they would allow helicopters to assist, but there are quite a few accidents a day that are life/death situations depending on a rapid HEMS service. People don't decide NOT to get injured today or tomorrow...:ugh:

I clearly understand that IFR traffic may be dangerous because you don't know what you may fly into, but VFR...?

Is this the consequence of a "safety first" society? Where the most dangerous a kid can do is to put on his helmet, because he might get pinched by the strap-lock...?:bored:

[S76Heavy]

It's not, and never has been, a "safety first" society.

It is however, an "I'll make sure I don't get sued for damages" society.:yuk:

Which is why such idiocy as a blanket ban on all flights gets imposed without any conscious thought. Wonder if the cause of death of people the coming days will be listed as "volcanic ash cloud" :ugh:

[[email protected]]

The world has gone barking mad - yes it is an excellent idea not to fly into a volcanic ash cloud but to stay on the ground when the weather is 8/8 blue is ridiculous.

The SARF is ops only at the moment and one has to wonder at the logic - if it is too dangerous to fly because of the ash then it is too dangerous to fly full stop. If it is safe to fly on SAROPs then it is safe to fly on training.

Our helos have a very splendid sandfilter/particle separator on the engines which is good enough for Afghanistan sand but not good enough for Icelandic ash!!!!!

All around the country, mil aircraft are being wheeled into hangars to protect them while the sun still shines brightly in the sky - talk about risk-averse decision making:ugh:

[EESDL]

Of course you do not fly into any sort of debris....doh!

If debris is in cloud so you can't see it then you have to stay clear of cloud....doh!

If you can't guarantee being able to stay clear of cloud then don't fly.....doh!

but then NATS guy mentioned 'no flying in commercial airspace' on telly.....does that mean that if I'm parked within an ATZ then I can't take off - yet my farmstrip mate can?

The ASH is not a player at lower levels (as I rant)- will someone at NATS please grow some balls!!!!!!!

World has gone mad and lunatics have taken over.........

Read the effing NOTAM - vfr only

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

So whats the crack with all this ash stuff then.. Looks like it could go on for days judging by the ashtam
:8:{

I presume the CAA are going into the 'starting volcanos market' cause that seems to be the best way of stopping the UK from flying. Something they have been trying to do for years.

[CRAZYBROADSWORD]

been flying all day today not seen any ash can't see what the bother is and as at 1800 local north london was still blue skys is this stuff invisible or am i missing something?

[101BOY]

Spoke to our maint org earlier and they said that Turbomeca, RR and P&W were all putting out advice not to fly and therefore so were they. With Battersea shut to most traffic it's a bit academic at the mo.

[Tango123]

paradox :}:

Adrenaline helicopter tours in Iceland (http://www.nordurflug.is/)

[heliboy999]

Have had students asking if they can fly tomorrow. Although it will be a Hughes 300 and the sky is due to be clear, the dust that accumulated on my car tonight makes me wonder what would be happening to my blades. The blades have already lost the paint from normal clean air operation, who knows what wear they would experience during the 3 hours planned flying in potential grit filled air? Any views?
Im leaning towards NOT flying but would appreciate some back up or sensible advice.

HB999

[Helikopter]

Tango 123, this is a totally different mountain (Fimmvorduhals), this is just a mountain with lava and no ash at all, but this one today (Eyjafjallajokull) is way underneath a ice with a lot of ash. Just keep the fingers crossed that the next glacier east with the mountain Krafla doesnt start, there we are most likely talking about months !

[Senior Pilot]

Just keep the fingers crossed that the next glacier east with the mountain Krafla doesnt start, there we are most likely talking about months

The last time Eyjafjallajokull erupted, it lasted two years! Mind you, it was 1821 to 1823 ;)

[birrddog]

The last time Eyjafjallajokull erupted, it lasted two years! Mind you, it was 1821 to 1823 ;)
Remember it well do you, Splot?

:E

[tommacklin]

I think that's a very reasonable request for advice under these abnormal circumstances and am surprised there haven't been more.

I'm actually on the other side of the world so I'm only reading about what is going on in Europe. My advice would be to exercise greater than normal caution in making that decision to fly. Obviously, if a restriction is placed on vfr flight in UK then the decision is taken away from you, but even lacking any flight restriction, if there is ash or thicker than normal dust settling on your car, I would have to consider what it would do to the air filter whilst airborne, or to the blades as you mentioned.

There seems to be some disgruntlement and disbelief at the caution being displayed by those in authority, maybe it is overkill, I don't know, however, sometimes we just have to accept that those decisions are made by fairly smart guys, being paid to make wise decisions for the benefit of most people.

You might ask your senior pilot for his advice, get some top cover. Or ask the person who is liable to pay for the repairs if any damage is caused.

These are abnormal conditions, it's a very reasonable cause for some concern.

Have a good flight......or not.

Tam

[thepross]

We have been flying around active Volcanoes here in Hawaii since the early eighties. They are still active and we are still flying.

I can understand the High go fast guys need to divert, but the Helo folk's standing down is a total Joke.

Here in the USA the operators tend to have the final say rather then the Govt.
But then again that is about to change with this New Administration's One World Order....

[thepross]

Um,

That is true. But in the early Day's (83 or 84) of the Mauna Loa eruptions which lasted many week's we continued flying up close and personal.

Mind you some of the operators did have turbine problems as well as pitted windshields and the occasional damaged blades from folks crossing down wind and to close to the eruption site.

[Heli-Ice]

What goes up, must come down.

This ash falls down so you will definitely encounter it at lower levels in not such a long time.

On a lighter note. I am thinking about starting an auction here. How much do you want to pay me for putting the plug back in the Eyjafjallajokull volcano? :cool:

[Spunk]

Got up at 04:30 this morning, checked the NOTAMS stating "NO IFR flights", got out to the airport to find out that the entire airport is closed even for VFR.
Looks like the entire airport staff decided to take a day off. :eek:

[mfriskel]

Take a good look in your engine maint manuals. This is from PWC.

J. Aircraft Flown through Volcanic Ash or Smoke.
(1) Do a compressor wash - performance recovery (Ref. Chapter 71-00-00, POWER
PLANT - CLEANING).
(2) Drain and refill the engine oil system (Ref. Chapter 72-00-00, ENGINE GENERALSERVICING).
(3) Replace the oil filter (Ref. Chapter 79-21-00, OIL SYSTEM (DISTRIBUTION)-
MAINTENANCE PRACTICE).
(4) Do a function check of the chip detector (Ref. Chapter 72-00-00, ENGINE
GENERAL-SERVICING).
(5) Inspect the compressor for damage (Ref. Chapter 72-00-00, ENGINE
GENERAL-INSPECTION).
(6) Do a power assurance check as per the Applicable Aircraft Manual.
(7) Drain and refill the engine oil system with new oil after 50 ±10 hour (Ref. Chapter
72-00-00, ENGINE GENERAL-SERVICING).

[MightyGem]

Well, I've just turned up at work to find that we're grounded(along with the rest of the UK ASUs I believe) after advice from Turbomeca. As someone else said, a CYA exercise I think for low level stuff.

[Hummingfrog]

Thanks for that info MG:E - time to go and do the blag we've planned - hope Cameron isn't around ready to "fire up the Quattro", though most of the lads have decided to get banged up in time for the World Cup - get free SKY TV and 3 meals a day!;)

HF

[Nubian]

Now, all sensible people wouldn't have any problems with flight-restictions when you're exposed to the smoke and volcanic ash. But what sort of consentration in the air is it in the lower part of the atmosphere a few thousand kilometers away?

Is it really sane to have EMS and SAR helicopters (all helicopters for that sake) grounded far far away from the eruption. As long as you can't see these particals in the air, I doubt that they are more harmful than the very visible SAND you normally see when landing in dry places. (damages to surfaces, not ingested)
And for engine damage, this should be avoided with the use of sand-filter?? I am not talking about partical-seperator, but proper sand-filter.

But this ash is really special, so normal means won't help.



But hey, there might be "other" reasons to keep a total ban I'm sure.

[Droopy]

It would be interesting to see a comparison with the Harmattan in W Africa - different composition of course but often much more dense than this stuff, ISTR many hours flogging around in 1-2 mile vis

[chopjock]

I presume pistons are less effected. Imagine that, turbines grounded and good old pistons fly normally.:)

[R44-pilot]

Think of all the piston NON IR rated pilot!!! :p






(our turn now) :E

[SilsoeSid]

If there is absolutely, and I keep hearing it on the radio and TV, absolutely positively no threat to health in any context whatsoever...with Professor after Doctor after Health 'Expert' telling us this is so, how come engines are 'going to be' affected so much as to ground EMS etc?

Having washed the car yesterday (it really needed it), I expected a layer of this volcanic ash to be on it this morning. Quelle suprise, diddly squat, apart from those darned flying rats leaving a message. I'm sure there's a difference between flying through a volcanic ash cloud as in the 747 back in '82 and flying through dissipated ash cloud thousands of Km down range.


What next FFS?
Thunderstorm in Edingburgh, stop refuelling operations in Newcastle!
And when some other 'expert' appears on TV and mentions health risks, cancellation of the London Marathon and other events next weekend?

Hey ho, It's a lovely day out there, the birds are singing (and flying) and all is well with the world. (until an expert tells us otherwise!)

[Heli-Ice]

Um... lifting

The plug is of the threaded type with counter-clockwise threads and for the right amount, I will use my devilish powers to unscrew the volcano with it :}

Jokes aside.
I can tell you that the ash that falls lea side of the volcano is very thick and it is beginning to damage farmlands. But to our amazement, most of the domestic airports and airfields have not been closed and flying helicopters in the viscinity of the volcano has not been prohibited.

Air North has been busy flying with news reporters and geologists and evacuating people from the area.

Check this article (http://mbl.is/mm/frettir/innlent/2010/04/16/ofrynileg_asynd_eyjafjallajokuls/) on Morgunbladid newspaper, it is in Icelandic but the picture isn't :)

[charlieDontSurf]

I suppose the VFR heli-ban hysteria is because we aren't used to this situation.
If the volcano at Iceland had been active for several years, they wouldn't quit flying in Northern Europe....
The British 747 flew through the main eruption form the volcano with extremely dense ash, no wonder the engines stopped..

It's the same in countries with blue skies 364 days a year, and the one day with poor visibility, they don't fly.
In Norway we have winter and lots of rain/snow and poor conditions, but have learned to live with it, and fly when the conditions are good enough, but it doesn't need to be perfect.

Heli-Ice:

I know you are happy that you get a lot of tourists coming to see the volcano, but you don't need to smoke out the rest of Northern Europe! Look what you have done, now we can't even fly to Iceland to see it! :}
Can you please turn down the eruption a bit, so we can get things moving here again...?

[tottigol]

"Volcanic ash is hard to detect from an aircraft, and is not visible on the weatherradar.
The most dangerous aspect is that the particles'(ash) meltingpoint is lower than the turbines' working-temp. This leads to the ash melting to a thick, lava-like fluid, that slowly floats into the engine and causing it to shut down.
The ashparticles are very hard, with sharp edges, effectively sand-blowing leading edges.
The windshields are most vulnerable, turning matte, and the pilot's loose visibility."

I cannot wait for the next disaster movie to come out, which shall surely includes scenes like the one above.:8

[nigelh]

Unbelievably i managed to claw my way home from London to Yorkshire , battling my way through volcanic ash . My pax were issued with scarves across their mouths and i wore WW2 goggles to protect my eyes . The engine miraculously kept turning , blades dripping molton glass ...but we made it :eek:
Now planning to be a superhero and collect some pax from the borders who have been stranded . Strangely enough , looking inside the cockpit and engine bay there doesnt seem to be a single speck of dust ...its immaculate .
Maybe its my butler being v attentive ...or maybe just maybe .....no thats such a stupid thought .......i was just going to suggest that maybe this is a load of bollocks and there is no ash floating out there at 500ft at all .....maybe our beaurocrats have their heads up their arses again and havent actually looked outside :ugh: One word ......PATHETIC . No add another one as well TYPICAL . How on earth did we win a war .

[Mr Scoop]

I think the disaster movie would need the pilot battling with the aircraft to stop it from hitting an orphanage / school / maternity hospital.

[nimby]

Is this Nick Clegg's doing?

[Heli-Ice]

charlieDontSurf

What we got here is a hostage situation. We found a few very rich tourists and they are held hostage by the eruption while we strip'em to the bone.

Just wait a few days and these people will be let loose and you will be tricked up here instead for a complete package :ok:


A little more about the ash vs helicopter.

Since the volcanic ash mainly composed of very rough glass type crystals, doesn't it eat up the blades on our precious helicopters? I recon that this is a lot worse than desert sand/dust of any kind?

Scoop and tottigol

Make sure that the movie will be shot in Iceland in real circumstances. We have all the resources here and if something isn't available, you don't need it.

[snotcicles]

I remember hearing that when Mt. St. Helens erupted in the early '80's, the guys that chose to fly amongst the ash got about 300 hours between overhauls on their compressors. My guess is the engines and rotor systems leading edges won't last too long. The engine probably won't quit...right now...:rolleyes:

[nigelh]

There is no evidence of any ash at all from my flights last night or today ...i would say that means there isnt any ....some of the more enterprising operators of jets are really making hay now flying charters :D:D
Of course if and when there IS ash then things would be different ....until then carry on flying .

[thwock]

when did air traffic change from assiting aircraft with the safe and orderly flow of traffic to telling us when and where we can fly ?:ugh::ugh:

[AnFI]

http://www.nordurflug.is/images/stories/forsida/f1-volcano1.jpg

[BDiONU]

when did air traffic change from assiting aircraft with the safe and orderly flow of traffic to telling us when and where we can fly ?:ugh::ugh:
ATC don't own the skies, the governments do. NATS is the largest of the UK's Air Navigation Service Provider, note the words Service Provider. They provide a service within the confines of the licence and limitations of HM Government PLC. In the current situation NATS are the governments spokesmen/talking heads. Neither NATS nor the airlines want to stop flying because they're losing money hand over fist.

What absolutely astonishes me is the arrogance and selfishness being displayed in this thread. HM Government are taking advice from volcanologists and the met office about the ash plume and are acting on that advice. In this thread I read non experts who simply want to fly wherever and whenever they like, to hell with the rest of us. Well I personally don't want the mangled wreckage of your aircraft landing on my head, or my house or my friends etc. etc. and I don't want my taxes spent in scraping you up off the ground. You remind me of the most ignorant comment on sky from some woman who said "It's a disgrace, I want to go on my holidays and they won't let me!" Does she really want a holiday which has the potential to become permanent?
The effects of volcanic ash on aircraft are very well documented and the risks are too high, stay on the ground until it's absolutely safe and you're not likely to cause harm to the rest of us.

BD

[AnFI]

It is understandably the correct decision for a state functionary to make.

He is only at 'wrong' if he 'allows' flght incorrectly - there is no incentive for him to make a judgement to allow flights ... even though it is probably ok.

It's a bit like y2k computer issue....

(Nutty but ......... if required corridors could be verified as suitable by flying 'survey flights' - the squirrel with barrier filter could do the job - ready to go now if required....)

After all the 100's of millions of pounds might be worth a few hours in a helicopter...
don't they have atmospheric sampling aircraft?:ugh:

[AnFI]

Isn't the problem here about accountability anyway?

IFR Class A airspace aircraft are 'controlled' by someone who cannot verify that there is not a dense ash cloud on the route in the path of the aircraft - therefore he cannot be expected (individually or corporately) to give a clearance ...

... the pilot would be able to determine if his path were obscurred by dense volcanic ash - but he is (effectively) not allowed to look out of the window in Class A airspace. (No VFR or SVFR in Class A Areas)

Temporary permission to fly SPECIAL VFR in Class A Controlled Areas - could help.

I guess most of the UK population is looking up at the sky and not seeing a volcanic cloud at all - 8/8 blue?
Can anyone see this cloud ?
Is it just a theoretical possibility which is being avoided?
Can this possibility be verified....?

Is there an observable upper atmospheric dust cloud somewhere?

Am I missing something here?

Is there damage from invisible trace ammounts ?
Are we talking about parts per 10 billion?

[AnFI]

Volcanic ash does not affect VFR aircraft....

[volrider]

I guess they are not telling you stay on the ground just to be awkward and spiteful, more likely they are doing it for a good reason, i.e. trying to give you a better chance of reaching pensionable age!
It is a sensible thing to follow the rules and if they say No then thats it, when its safe to play outside they will let you know:ok:

[Heli-Ice]

Aftenposten.no issues a forecast (http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/article3609072.ece)for ash cloud dispersal.

Article on Flightglobal (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/04/16/340727/pictures-finnish-f-18-engine-check-reveals-effects-of-volcanic.html) about Finnish F-18's eating Icelandic ash.

Live update (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/04/16/340703/live-updates-european-airspace-disruption-continues-due-to-volcanic-ash.html) about airspace restrictions due to the volcanic ash on Flightglobal

Funny thing is that we have flight restrictions of only 10 NM radius from the craters at Eyjafjallajokull.

News coverage (http://www.mbl.is/mm/frettir/forsida/2010/04/16/oku_inn_i_midjan_mokkinn/) of the volcanic ash some 50km to 100km east of the eruption site. Note that the video is shot at noon :eek:

[LEGAL TENDER]

Volcanic ash does not affect VFR aircraft.... You might like to ask the Shetland Coastguard?

BBC News - Helicopter flies through volcano ash in Shetland rescue (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/north_east/8624984.stm)

Helicopter flies through volcano ash in Shetland rescue


http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/47659000/jpg/_47659665_choppermedivac226.jpg The decision was taken to use a helicopter for the patient

A rescue helicopter was flown through clouds of volcano ash to help a woman on Shetland who was in a "life or death" situation.
The woman was seriously ill in the Out Skerries, and it was feared ferry travel may take too long.
The Shetland Coastguard helicopter crew decided to fly through not only ash, but low visibility caused by rain and mist on Friday morning.
The casualty was taken to Gilbert Bain Hospital in Lerwick.
Pilot John Grant told BBC Scotland there was evidence of ash deposits on the helicopter on their return.
Martin Sykes, watch manager at Shetland Coastguard, explained: "After discussions with ambulance control we realised that this was a life or death situation with a casualty in a very serious condition.
"The helicopter crew made the difficult decision to fly through the clouds of ash, mist, and rain in a bid to save the woman who is now receiving treatment in hospital."
He added: "After every operational trip the helicopter is given a thorough clean thereby removing any debris that has built up."

[flyer43]

In June 1991, Mount Pinatubo erupted in the Philippines. The volcanic ash drifted across to Brunei where I was flying the S61s based there. One of my colleagues experienced compressor stall as he applied power at the end of his approach at our base. On inspection, it was found that substantial build up was occuring to the compressor blades which required the implementation of 2 compressor washes per day to prevent further engine problems.
It was very rare that any of the helicopters there operated IFR, so I think the above statement isn't exactly true........

[AnFI]

Yes the helicopter probably doesn't know whether it is being flown VFR or IFR ...

.... I am sure the ash would have the same effect on the engines whether the pilot is flying VFR or IFR.....

The restriction is only for IFR though....

Presumably because if you are looking out of the widow and free to adapt your path there is no need to fly through the dust particles ....?

(It seems rarer for twins to have particle seperators though ... is that true?)

[nigelh]

Absolutely Volrider ...Nanny knows best :rolleyes:

[AnFI]

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/47652000/jpg/_47652360_ash.jpg

[AnFI]

Belfast-London looks ok don't you think?

Of course we must obey the rules....

... but when the rules stop people doing thing which are quite obviously 100% fine in all other respects other than being against the rules then it undermines the credibility of the rules.

We can strive to improve the quality of the rules - don't you think?

What cost can an economy bear for the sake of unaccountable 'safe' decisions?
£500,000,000?

(nigelh - bet you love being told what to do by 'nanny' - eh?;))

[BDiONU]

Of course we must obey the rules....

... but when the rules stop people doing thing which are quite obviously 100% fine in all other respects other than being against the rules then it undermines the credibility of the rules.

Are there rules about only flying aircraft types for which you have a licence? Are there rules for only flying aircraft which have an appropriate airworthiness certificate? Why should flying in airspace be treated any differently. I'm an Air Traffic Controller and our priority is safety, it seems a real shame that some portions of the aviation community don't view safety in quite the same way :hmm:

BD

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

BDioNu,

I agree with you 100%. This thread is just loaded with "Experts" who think they know better. Give them the responsibility to say "YES IT IS OK TO FLY" and risk several hundred thousand lives an hour and watch their little pink arses fall out.

I never read such a total crock of sh-one-t in my life.

If you look at the sattelite imagery the cloud has almost encircled UK and down into Europe. Where can anything fly with a 100% chance of not getting goosed by the ash.

Maybe they should have watched the Sky Documentary re-run of FLIGHT BA-009 from Perth last night. The paint jobs alone would run into millions.

If there is doubt - there is no doubt. I just take people to work and back. I understand the more difficult decisions for EMS/SAR pilots and their management because they are not just taking people to work and back - are they!!!

Well done NATS for having the balls to make a tough decision without waiting for the body count.

[BDiONU]

Well done NATS for having the balls to make a tough decision without waiting for the body count.
It's not NATS decision to make, nor any of the other ANSP's throughout Europe who have responded similarly, it's a government decision.

BD

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

BdioNu,

Well OK then, well done to whoever in the Government had the balls to make....blah blah..blah.............................

DB

[AnFI]

This is one of the Finnish F-18's which went to play with the cloud - note the date:
http://www.flightglobal.com/assets/getAsset.aspx?ItemID=33774

PICTURES: Finnish F-18 engine check reveals effects of volcanic dust ...
Link is here:
PICTURES: Finnish F-18 engine check reveals effects of volcanic dust-16/04/2010-London-Flightglobal.com (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/04/16/340727/pictures-finnish-f-18-engine-check-reveals-effects-of-volcanic.html)

As for rules... sure if there is doubt then no doubt.
but if there is no doubt then don't doubt too much.

Only IFR are banned ... VFR are not banned ... how does the ash know what the flight rules of the pilot are? Good rules are good ...

........ and sure it's a difficult decision - can this stuff be seen and can safe passage routes be established? How much would it cost ? Is it worth it? Do we care? Could we do better?

[Swamp76]

Just like Y2K.............................like every other uninformed opinion on here.

Y2K was a non-event because the risk was seen, mitigated, eliminated.

Rather than wait until an aircraft blunders into a high ash concentration area the risk has been seen, mitigated..............

You can blame the endless parade of ambulance chasers and greedy 'victims' for the level of caution.

[bellsux]

I am reading that a lot of European airline staff are quite worried about this at the moment due to the financial losses that the airlines will be taking from this event.
What effect is it to the helicopter staff over there? Will some companies be fitting FDC Aerofilters and take advantage of the demand? Will others look like shutting down until it clears? What will the North Sea oil companies do.. go to boats? West African touring crew.. what are your plans for rotations?
It certainly has the potential to change aviation in Europe and the people that rely on it for a living.

[[email protected]]

It will be interesting to see just how long this goes on before there is a massive climbdown by the govt/NATS/CAA/met office and business gets back to normal - the eruptions haven't stopped and the weather pattern seems set to stay.

No one doubts that flying through volcanic ash is bad for engines but at what concentration of ash does it become a factor? The 1982 incident happened in an ash cloud so dense it looked like thick 'normal' cloud - what is above most of UK and the surrounds is barely visible to the naked eye.

Since what there is of the ash cloud seems to be easily trackable by satellite and forecastable in track by the met office, why not route aircraft round the 'high risk' areas and get on with it?

We seem to be victims of an internationally agreed protocol where 'volcanic ash' seems to be the trigger for a chicken-licken 'the sky is falling down' reaction rather than accepting that volcanic ash is present in the atmosphere all the time and defining concentrations that are either safe or not to fly in.

If I was an airline boss I would be demanding some decent scientific evidence of concentration level Vs risk.

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

CRAB, why do you beleive that the management should be able to determine when we should be flying (re "If I were an airline boss") if you actually work in civil aviation you would know that the management would want us flying regardless of what risks exists (generally) and it is only through sound regulation, hindisght and experience that systems are put in place to prevent this kind of attitude.

What kind oif "climbdown" are you expecting. Is it that eventually we will fly and say see...SEE....I haven't died.

God save the unsuspecting passengers from the likes of you and the others on this forum who have suddenly become VULCONOLOGIST ENGINE SPECIALISTS in less than a few days.

I have no idea how much ash constitutes risk and I would hazard a guess that the powers that be probably are not 100% sure either.

What is definitley sure is that no-one will be put at risk if aircraft do not fly in the ash cloud.

This volcano could go on for weeks....months and I am sure that eventually other factors will come into play. More information. Data on how the ash is concetrated and where.

I am pretty sure that in my lifetime...no volcanos have erupted near the UK and Northern europe before, so it is going to take some time for the Authorities to create a safe operating environment around such phenomenom and feel comfortable again about the risk to passengers and crews.

Making a tough decision is just that....TOUGH. Tough because to reverse that decision you need a definitive change in circumstances, perception and/or attitude.

I am more than happy to wait for the Authorities to come up with a definitive answer.

DB

[malabo]

Double Bogey - you must be expecting to continue to be paid while you "wait out the volcano". In short order, no revenue, no payroll.

And no manager is going to risk damage costs in excess of revenue. Darwinism of the capital system.

[volrider]

NATS announce restrictions in place until 01:00 Sunday... interesting video at BBC
BBC News - Ash plane 'finds a lot of muck' in UK airspace (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8626625.stm)
Worringly he states lower level crap that wx radar etc does not see..... Maybe this will explain the dangers a bit more clearly to doubters???

[BDiONU]

Commercial aviation is and must put safety first risks must be mitigated as much as possible. Why? Lets look at it from the ATC perspective, if NATS had a mid air or very close airprox people will lose confidence in us and they will cease to use us, our revenues will drop and we'll go out of business. The shudder that went through the entire ATC community after Überlingen can still be felt.
The same applies to aviation companies, if you think that you're much more clever than those hidebound bureaucrats who are stopping you flying and took a load of SLF aloft, then crashed and they died, how bad is that for your business, how many people are going to want to fly with a company that takes risks? Do you not think that hunkering down until this is over, albeit with massive cost implications, is preferable to getting airborne with, what the experts consider, a real possibility of an accident which will deter SLF from flying with you and your company will go bankrupt?

BD

[coatimundi]

For info - an EC225 has just lifted off the Sedco 704 en route for Aberdeen at 0840 local time. :ok:

This a/c had been shut down offshore since the 14th due to a tech problem. Another EC225 will be lifting from ABZ shortly to fly to the S704, there may be one or two other flights this morning before the ash cloud returns this afternoon :(

Edit - there are now 5 North Sea helicopters airborne in the Central area at 0930 local.

[Paul Chocks]

Interesting one this. We all have our perceptions of what is safe or not, and indeed make judgements every day when we fly. Very few of us are experts on volcanic ash however.

On Thursday, I was tasked to fly, and after gathering as much information as I could, judged that it was safe, at the altitudes and latitudes I needed, and so proceeded.

However, looking at the last few posts above, it looks like some pilots like Double Bogey could have a major conundrum.

It appears that some NS pilots do not believe it is safe to fly, and yet at least one operator has started operating again. If one company has started, then there will be pressure on all the operators.

However, ultimately the aircraft captain is responsible for the safe flight of his aircraft. How much will your company support you as a commander if you refuse to fly?

[AnFI]

We have barrier filters .... still can't get into france since they have taken the blunt step of CLOSING their FIR ...

I am happy that it is not a risk to us.

I suppose the difference in approach is explicable in terms of how bureaucracies function...

It would be unreasonable to ask a body that does not know, to make the descision - they would have to say NO because to say yes (if indeed it were in fact ok) would take the exercise of judgement which understandably they do not have, and have no incentive to use.

The private busness has every incentive to make that judgment well....
as BdIOnUpoints out :
"a real possibility of an accident which will deter SLF from flying with you and your company will go bankrupt?"

If they don't know they have to say NO.

Companies carry the responsibility of jobs and lives and are accustomed to making those judgments ... whereas in a non commercial world there is little need to make any judgments on these issues ... they rarely have to ....

When all descissions are made by disinterested bureaucrats companies lose the ability to judge and eventually end up doing anything which is allowed if it makes a buck - this is likely to be worse.

[SilsoeSid]

Still no ash deposits on the car!

Anyway, everyone mentions it but doesn't post it, so here it is;

Q) EGXX/QWWLW/IV/NBO/W/000/195/5441N00219W999
B) FROM: 10/04/16 21:44C) TO: 10/04/17 12:00 EST
E) A VOLCANIC ASH VA CLOUD, ORIGINATING IN ICELAND IS HAVING A MAJOR IMPACT AFFECTING UK AIRSPACE. SCOTTISH AND LONDON FIR/UIR AREAS AFFECTED, BASED ON A PROJECTION FROM THE VOLCANIC ASH ADVISORY MESSAGE IS AS FOLLOWS:
170000 EAST AND SOUTH OF THE FOLLOWING LINES 5820N 00254E,
5147N 00427W, 5152N 00622W
170600 EAST AND SOUTH OF THE FOLLOWING LINES 5636N 00500E,
5303N 00037W, 5312N 00530W
171200 NORTH OF LINE 6019N 01000W, 6100N 00216W AND SOUTH OF LINE
5651N 00500E, 5244N 00530W
OPR SHOULD REFER TO LATEST VA ADVISORY FOR FURTHER INFO SEE MET OFFICE VAAC LONDON WEBSITE. IN ACCORDANCE WITH ICAO VOLCANIC ASH CONTINGENCY PLAN, NO IFR CLEARANCE WILL BE ISSUED FOR PENETRATION OF THE FORCAST CONTAMINATED AREA WI UK AIRSPACE. LONDON FIR/UIR
REMAINS ZERO RATE UNTIL 1200 APR 17. SCOTTISH AIRSPACE RESTRICTIONS INCLUDING NORTHERN IRELAND AND THE AIRSPACE TO THE WEST OF THE CONTAMINATED AREA INCLUDING PART OF THE NORTH SEA, SHETLAND AND ORKNEY REMAIN LIFTED. MANCHESTER, LIVERPOOL AND ALL AIRPORTS NORTH OF THOSE MAY BE AVBL FM 0300-0900 FOR NORTHBOUND DEPARTURES, SOUTHBOUND ARRIVALS AND FOR WESTBOUND DEPARTURES AND EASTBOUND ARRIVALS SUBJ INDIVIDUAL COORDINATION WITH UK FMP. CAUTION CURRENT FORECASTS SHOWS THAT AFTER 0900 THE ASH CLOUD MOVES NORTH AGAIN AND THAT THE SITUATION IS SUBJ CHANGE AND DIVERSION AIRFIELDS MAY BE A SIGNIFICANT DISTANCE FROM THE ORIGINAL DESTINATION.
VFR OPERATORS SHOULD OPERATE EXTREME CAUTION AND MUST ASSURE THEMSELVES THAT THEIR FLIGHT CAN BE CONDUCTED IN A SAFE MANNER BEFORE FLYING. NOTE THAT ATSOCAS CAPACITY MAY BE SEVERELY LIMITED DURING THE
PERIOD. AUS 10-04-0218/AS6.LOWER: SFC UPPER: FL195And the Isle of Man;

Q) EGTT/QAEXX/IV/NBO/AE/000/999/5405N00437W999
A) EGNS B) FROM: 10/04/17 05:45C) TO: 10/04/22 11:00
E) WHEREAS THE ISLE OF MAN (IOM) DEPARTMENT OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT DEEMS IT NECESSARY IN THE PUBLIC INTEREST TO RESTRICT OR PROHIBIT FLYING IN IOM AIRSPACE BY REASON OF THE DANGER TO AVIATION CAUSED BY VOLCANIC ASH IN THE ATMOSPHERE, AN ACFT SHALL NOT FLY OVER THE IOM OR THE TERRITORIAL WATERS ADJACENT TO THE IOM EXCEPT WITH THE
PERMISSION OF AND IN ACCORDANCE WITH ANY INSTRUCTIONS GIVEN BY THE AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL UNIT AT IOM (RONALDSWAY) AIRPORT. SFC/UNL THE DEPARTMENT MAKES THESE REGULATIONS UNDER ARTICLE 96 OF THE AIR NAVIGATION ORDER 2005, AS IT HAS EFFECT IN THE IOM AND IS DETAILED IN STAUTORY DOCUMENT NO.256/10. FURTHER INFORMATION CAN BE OBTAINED FROM BRIAN JOHNSON, IOM DIRECTOR OF CIVIL AVIATION 01624682357.VFR OPERATORS SHOULD OPERATE EXTREME CAUTION AND MUST ASSURE THEMSELVES THAT THEIR FLIGHT CAN BE CONDUCTED IN A SAFE MANNER BEFORE FLYING.

I wonder if Mr Ryanair is thinking of VFR'ing a 737 across to Dublin :ok:


I bet the news agencies are glad they have this to report on, the scipt is made for them and the world awaits... but wait a mo, all this with the election so close as well. I hope that Dead Donkey story is ready for May 8th :suspect:


It's another lovely day, birds-a-singing, sun-a-shining, lets keep things as they are....Why vote for change! :eek:

[WOP]

Looks like all three operators have partially resumed operations, probably on a case to case basis...

[F.A.TAlbert]

Out of curiosity, how many crews out there have actually had experience of power loss and blade errosion and are confident that they can assess correctly the risk level that results? I suppose those who have had military time in the desert might be able to drag up a 'once upon a time experience' when the symptoms were so noticeable it couldn't be anything else.

Well clear skies again in the north yet my car [valeted last night] is covered again but only 50% of yesterday's mess. Wonder what the values are for engine repair/blade renewal is versus lost revenue?

[AnFI]

.... most companies run policies where any individual pilot can make any 'no go' decision with zero negative consequences....

[SilsoeSid]

Research aircraft returns to volcanic ash plume (http://planetearth.nerc.ac.uk/news/story.aspx?id=710)


Where have you heard this before?

The same team flew out to the plume's expected location on Thursday, but did not find the ash. Although this outcome was negative, this does necessarily mean the ash clouds are not dispersing as the models predict - further investigation is needed.

Those darned model predictions again!
What do Twiggy and Naomi know about all this anyway?


Ahhh, Perhaps this is why?

The Dornier is normally used for low-altitude remote sensing of the land and atmosphere using instruments such as radar and lidar - the latter is like radar but uses lasers instead of sound waves to build up a picture of distant objects. Atmospheric sampling work like this mission is normally the job of another aircraft, the Facility for Airborne Atmospheric Measurement's (FAAM) BAe-146.

[volrider]

well look on the bright side Sid, at least your Sunday most likely wont be wasted in bed;)

[jayteeto]

We are still on line for HEMs (since lunch yesterday), I flew 6 sorties yesterday. (Blackburn area and Lakes)

[Daysleeper]

instruments such as radar and lidar - the latter is like radar but uses lasers instead of sound waves to build up a picture of distant objects.
:ugh:

NATS unveil the new Heathrow 23cm echo locator ......

[Nubian]

You just can't fix stupid!!

A friend I just spoke to told me that in Norway, the CAA has banned HANG and PARAGLIDERS from flying as the they said something like "no-fly rules are no-fly rules":eek:

[volrider]

seems to be some confusion on whats fly and no fly??? I understand Airlines and IFR traffic are at risk but it also seems VFR are at risk according to the reports I have read and seen, I know that at our base Turbomeca have sent information re flying in such conditions and what is required re service after an event, it also is worded in such away that it seems any guarantee is invalid if you fly... Hence a lot of similar set ups are likewise not flying... The ash/dust/nasties seem to be a lot lower than IFR, it would most likely be in the levels a lot of VFR operstions work in... just because you cant see it does not mean its there??
I think that most set ups like ours will await clearance from those that know better before we are flying again:uhoh:

[nigelh]

Double Bogey .....i am just SO happy you dont work for me :ok:

[Heli-Ice]

A question was asked if flight in Iceland have been stopped.

Answer is no but there are restrictions of course.

See ISAVIA (http://www.flugstodir.is/?PageID=101) and ICAA (http://www.caa.is/English/Frontpage/#fragment-1)website

Also see Icelandic Met Office (http://en.vedur.is/weather/aviation/windcharts) website

Live from the eruption: Mila webcam (http://eldgos.mila.is/eyjafjallajokull-fra-valahnjuk/) & Vodafone webcam (http://www.vodafone.is/eldgos)

[volrider]

Heli ice I think the cloud etc is moving away from Iceland which may well be the reason certain flights are operating, likewise the ease of restrictions for northern UK (which were then changed when the cloud moved towards it again)
I think DoubleBogey makes some relevent and interesting points to be honest.
what was the old saying...." there are old pilots and bold pilots, but never old bold pilots"... This thread seems to explain that theory:}

[Palma]

Is this closed to both VFR and IFR traffic?

[Heli-Ice]

volrider

Thats true, the volcano is on the south shore of Iceland and we have strong northerly winds that blow the ash away from us for the time being. The farms just beneath the volcano are getting slapped with thick layers of ash and their farmlands are ruined.

I live some 90km to the west of the eruption and we hope that wind will be favourable to the most of us. In this context it is hard to judge what is best but everyone thinks about their own so what have you?

It is hard to watch the impact this eruption has on Europe and sitting up here in the sunshine, watching the volcano spew its thing over to you is quite surreal. Some are even making sarcastic jokes about this all. Iceland runs great and our airliners can leave the country at will, at least to the west. Some flights have been made to Scotland from Iceland so things are moving a bit.

In here we are preparing for loss of harvest over the next years in case this eruption will last for months or even years. If the mountain Katla, which is only a few miles to the east of Eyjafjallajokull starts erupting, it will make this erupton look like a "campfire". This is a real possibility now because eruptions in Eyjafjallajokull mountain have been known to trigger eruptions in mount Katla. If that happens, we will not be having debate about if it is safe to fly in the UK like we do now, it will most likely not be safe or even clear enough to go VFR.

Thats that... Happy days.

[volrider]

If the mountain Katla, which is only a few miles to the east of Eyjafjallajokull starts erupting, it will make this erupton look like a "campfire". This is a real possibility now because eruptions in Eyjafjallajokull mountain have been known to trigger eruptions in mount Katla. If that happens, we will not be having debate about if it is safe to fly in the UK like we do now, it will most likely not be safe or even clear enough to go VFR

That is what we all fear, if history repeats itself, flying will be the least of our worries:sad:

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Double Bogey - So Happy you don't work for me

WHY would you just break the rules and fly!!!

I am back to work Monday (as I have been OFF) If the government/met/NATS say the airspace is open I will fly no problem.

NigelH I guess you are frustrated as you have some kind of aviation charter business and if that is the case I am sorry that you are taking a hit with this.

I am not in that business. My job is to turn up, assess risks and fly. I am reasonably good at all normal aviation risks that apertain to our helicopter operation but have no clue about volcanic ash.......so I will leave that up to the expert (or at least more informed people than myself).

Just because you are taking a hit does make these decision worng!!!

For the record, I suspect that you would be the kind of person I would NEVER work for as you are probably the kind of guy who takes unecessary risks to turn a profit.

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

MALABO

I presume that you would rather fly and get paid regardless!!!!!!!

I work for a good Company who take their responsibilities seriously.

Are you that dumb to think that not paying pilots when they cannot/will not fly would be a safe operating environment or do you just not care.

Jeeez.

I am off for a swig of VOLVIC!!!! (maybe a bit of Gin thrown in).

[nigelh]

CRAB, why do you beleive that the management should be able to determine when we should be flying (re "If I were an airline boss") if you actually work in civil aviation you would know that the management would want us flying regardless of what risks exists (generally) and it is only through sound regulation, hindisght and experience that systems are put in place to prevent this kind of attitude

You are quite obviously in the right job .
With your union style of chippiness against operators i dont think you would last long . And no , i dont believe that any operators want you to fly regardless of risk .... name one ?? They may just want you to some time use some common sense .

ps I havent cancelled a flight due to this ash cloud and continue to fly legally thankyou:ok:

[jeepys]

What double bogey said is correct

"What is definitley sure is that no-one will be put at risk if aircraft do not fly in the ash cloud".

So why don't we all give up flying forever.
Why stop there. When it's snowing in Aberdeen then there should not be a car on the road. That would be safer surely DB.

The fact remains that not the whole of the UK has been affected equally. Shetland are suffering a lot more than Southend. Can we not have flexibility in this country?

DB, as far as working for a good company that does not take unnecessary risks, did Mr Bristow not take huge risks in his pioneering days. Yes, of course he did and that is how he built the company that exists today.

[Paul Chocks]

DOUBLE BOGEY,

Lets be clear, airspace IS open - VFR flight is perfectly legal, although caution is advised (rightly so). Look at the NOTAM.

It is only IFR, and therefore Class A, which is unavailable. The vast majority of helicopter flying is outside Class A, and that which is flown normally IFR can, if VMC pertain, be flown VFR.

You could rock up to work on Monday, with EXACTLY the same NOTAM in force that their is today and your company may ask and expect you to fly.

Regarding charter, from what I hear, demand has never been higher as all those stuck and with sufficient money are chartering helicopters!

[BDiONU]

What double bogey said is correct

"What is definitley sure is that no-one will be put at risk if aircraft do not fly in the ash cloud".

So why don't we all give up flying forever.
Why stop there. When it's snowing in Aberdeen then there should not be a car on the road. That would be safer surely DB.
In a couple of words 'risk management'. We can understand and mitigate the risks of 'normal' flying, we cannot mitigate the risks of the ash problem as it's unprecedented. Where there is doubt there can be no doubt.

BD

[Bilbo Bagover]

France this afternoon closed their airspace for public transport VFR flights. For helicopters I think that closes all avenues for European charter work.
Bilbo

[nigelh]

Surely if you inspected the engines of the aircraft that have been continually flying over the last few days and find no damage there is your answer.....surely sending an aircraft up to all suspect areas and inspecting the engine after would work ?? Get it wrong , prove all these panickers correct and all you have done is damage an engine . Prove there is no problem and you could save this country many many millions and also save a lot of families, what is very likely a very very expensive nightmare, which could have been avoided .:ugh: For people like DB they dont care as they are paid whatever happens and have no incentive at all to use judgement .
One question i would ask is ...how many rich people have been stranded either away or not able to get to their homes , yachts etc ????? Not many is the answer because they have continued to fly all over the world departing vfr......its alright for some and has been a bananza for some operators and good on them:D

[BDiONU]

Prove there is no problem and you could save this country many many millions and also save a lot of families, what is very likely a very very expensive nightmare, which could have been avoided .:ugh:
But we're not in that place yet. My heart doesn't bleed for those stranded away as they're safe on the ground. If the aircraft they flew on crashed because of the effects of ash I'm certain the remaining families would be vehement in their condemnation of those who allowed aircraft to fly with the ash risk. Not to mention that the costs would be far greater than those currently being incurred, it's not rocket science to figure out what's safe.

BD

[Nubian]

BDiONU,

Isnt it an ATC-forum you can play on, instead of adding fuel to the fire here on Rotorheads?? I think we have enough of the like amongst ourselfs with DB heading the pack?
When you keep on repeating DB "when there's doubt......" I can tell you, I DO want to go home at the end of the day. It seems as you think that we all are suicidal, as we are questioning the total ban on flying in some places. (in an earlier post I mentioned some paragliders in Norway grounded by the CAA)

Now I do have experience from flying in deserts, landing in zero vis when the dustcloud catches up (very noticable for machine and crew). I have seen what that does to an engine NOT equipped with sandfilters, but for all my flying in the sand I have flown helicopters WITH filters fitted and operating, and have been able to look inside my engines which is a big diffrence. Also with bladetape fitted which works very good and is an insanely cheap measure....

Now, I do understand perfectly well that flying through ashclouds is not a good idea (like the BA747, KLM, Finnish F18 etc. etc.) but if you do fly inn VFR CAVOK 1000 km away from any ash-cloud I have a hard time understanding the problems.
You earlier stated that the damages was well documented. I would like to know the following from those findings:
What were the consentration of ash in PPM, by voulme and/or weight? Partical size etc.??
There are very good sandfilter on the market which is widely in use, and this I'm sure would prevent the turbines of EMS helicopters of my friends from spitting lava....

[pasptoo]

The fact remains that not the whole of the UK has been affected equally. Shetland are suffering a lot more than Southend. Can we not have flexibility in this country? :confused:

So far today, I have been told of ash deposit on the ground from Shetland to Cornwall (and a few in between).

As far as flying VFR and "low level". If you need a microscope to see the particulate, then how can you see them flying in VMC ? The ASHTAM depicts the forecast area from SFC - FL100 covering most of the country and getting wider. How many of the aircrew on here are experiencing ASHTAMs for the first time? That is why it is good to debate, but don't just think you are bigger and better than Mother Nature! She will always win.

The meteorological sampling aircraft has found particulate throughout the the lower airspace, as have many of the RAF Met stations around the country. Jets on the ground in Germany with Engines covered in plastic.

Add to all this a few showers around and we have ourselves an nice abrasive paste for our engines to ingest. Then once inside and nice and warm it forms into a nice hard baked on matter ready for Stall/surge/failure as it sees fit! No harm done if you don't pay for spares 'n' repairs!

Several Engine manufacturers have also issued warning notices about avoidance and engineering procedures if encountered.

I think risk assessment of any possible contamination is the best way forward, even if it is 8/8 blue. Does it only affect the IFR and Controlled Airspace? You and I know where it is, but does the ash? :ugh:

Is it not safer for a couple of days (or weeks) of no flying / precautionary planning rather than a couple of AAIBs with an out come of "We told you so!" ?

[Bertie Thruster]

1000 km away from any ash-cloud I have a hard time understanding the problems.


Waddington Met has been recording passing low level (varying from on the deck to 3000ft) particulate plumes('traces of ash') over the airfield for the last 2 days.

[BDiONU]

BDiONU,
Isnt it an ATC-forum you can play on, instead of adding fuel to the fire here on Rotorheads??
Yes there is an ATC forum but the folks on there seem to be much more safety oriented and risk averse than some of the posters in this thread. In addition there is comment about my company (NATS) who I am (strangely) keen to defend. Lastly this is a public forum, private forums exist if you don't want people like me bursting bubbles ;)

BD

[Senior Pilot]

Rotorheads,

Just a reminder to play the ball, not the man. There is no need in this debate to be openly insulting of other contributors, whether you agree with them or not.

The volcanic ash cloud is a huge problem which is unlikely to go away for quite a while yet. There is a lot for us all to learn about the subject!

[volrider]

Nubian, your keeness to fly is to be comended, like everyone on this forum we want to return to our jobs ASAP, myself .... I have been unable to work in the aircraft since January due to medical reasons (not maddness either:})
I was looking forward to my first shift Thursday and sadly I have had 3 days stuck on the ground looking at the helicopter sitting motionless:( But as much as I want to get up I know that we can't and I will have to wait a little bit longer. What I do know is that those that know better than me, do not think it's a good idea to risk engines, airframe and ulitmately lives just yet.. I will be happy to go when they say so and not before. Sand filters, not seeing the dust etc etc means jack to me as I know like a lot of folk here diddly sqaut about what is going on above us, so I will trust their expertise on this subject :ok:

[volrider]

Statement on Icelandic volcanic eruption: Saturday April 17, 2037
The volcanic ash cloud from Iceland is moving around and changing shape. Based on the latest information from the Met Office, NATS advises that the restrictions currently in place across UK controlled airspace will remain in place until at least 1300 (UK time) tomorrow, Sunday 18 April.

We will continue to monitor Met Office information and review our arrangements in line with that. We will advise further arrangements at approximately 0300 (UK time), Sunday 18 April.


Doesn't seem to be getting better:sad:

[slingyerhook]

Folk's,

I hope this has not been covered,but while reading the local rag today i noticed an article on the front page covering an RTC on the A9 in the Highlands and how the air ambulance (02A) Dalcross could not attend,but 137 could out of a similar area attend,is there a difference between RAF and civi in this predicament?.

A pilot i am not,so whats the score here,how does the ash affect airspace so close....or is it down to NOTAMS etc?.

SYH.

[[email protected]]

Slingy - some air ambulances are allowed to fly, others are not - it depends on the company policy. The SAR Force is allowed to fly for SAROps but only those outside of the red area on th VAC maps issued by the met office can fly for training.

I have flown twice on SAROPs today and there is a light dusting of particulate on the nose of the aircraft after each one - our engines do have sand filters but there is some discussion about whether the particulate size is too small to be filtered by them so we are comp washing the engines after each flight.

The long and short of it is that there is ash in the air but of very low concentration - is this a big short term risk to engines? I don't believe so or we wouldn't be flying at all.

I think the same is probably true for airliners providing they stay VMC - there may be long term engineering penalties but the cost of those is bound to be massively outweighed by the lost revenue of not flying at all.

Flying in VMC conditions that we have had for the last few days is not going to put out the flame on the engines no matter how much the doomsayers may claim - it might take some hours off them and they might need more frequent washes and inspections but this blanket ban on flying is ludicrous.

What this process has highlighted is the lack of adequate measuring capability and any form of assessment of particulate levels Vs risk to flying.

We are mainly relying on the met office who on Thursday were saying it wasn't a met issue at all and they were only advising the govt on the effects of the winds spreading the cloud.

[Oldlae]

Crab,
You are right, check the evidence, I hope that the your first stage compressor blades are inspected after each flight as I suspect the first signs of damage will show up there.

[EESDL]

any further guidance from Turbomrca UK?

[Brilliant Stuff]

Turbomecca are saying do not fly in the ash and if down the road they can attribute any maintenance issues to the ash than you the customer will have to pay for any damages PBH or not.

[fkelly]

My understanding is that Turbomeca have extremely clean hands...if you get my drift :hmm:

[John Eacott]

I have flown twice on SAROPs today and there is a light dusting of particulate on the nose of the aircraft after each one - our engines do have sand filters but there is some discussion about whether the particulate size is too small to be filtered by them so we are comp washing the engines after each flight.

The long and short of it is that there is ash in the air but of very low concentration - is this a big short term risk to engines? I don't believe so or we wouldn't be flying at all. crab@,

Two points: if the volcanic ash is too small to be trapped by the filters, then a comp wash may be irrelevant. I understand that the issue with the ash is that it will be 'melted' by the internal temperatures of the engine and thus clog nozzles, cooling vents, etc, or abrade the IGV's on the way through. Surely a wash would be akin to closing the stable door after the horse has bolted?

I understand that Science 1 (the test Dornier) encountered high concentration readings @ 2000ft over Bedfordshire a couple of days ago. Maybe more testing needs to be done to establish what the threat level really is?

Of course there's volcanic ash and there is Volcanic Ash ;)

http://gallery.me.com/johneacott/102634/JGT-20Raboul-2001/web.jpg

[tommacklin]

What a great shot, where was that taken John?

Tam Macklin

[Wizzard]

Hi Tam, it's been a while...;)

Looks like a post Mount St Helens photo to me!

[Heli-Ice]

I saw the plume rise to at least 20.000' tonight at 20:00! and it was blown southwards from the volcano. There seems to be enough power left in the crater. Our beloved geologists are predicting less eruption activity soon... well what do they know, a farmer told them when the previous eruption started in the same mountain...

Winds are expected to change to W & NW tomorrow and for the next 24 hrs in Iceland. I guess you will be getting more ash over to the mainland from us over the next day or two, unfortunately.

Wikipedia never lies about volcanic ash (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volcanic_ash)

John
Thats an interesting picture.

[John Eacott]

I put the last post up in a rush before leaving for a m'bike ride, and forgot to mention that it was after the eruption in Rabaul, PNG in September 1994. I bought the rebuild as VH-JGT, and it is still going strong with the current owners :ok:
http://gallery.me.com/johneacott/102634/JGT-2008/web.jpg

Another photo, this Squirrel was also brought into Australia and rebuilt:

http://gallery.me.com/johneacott/102634/JGT-20Raboul-2002/web.jpg

[[email protected]]

Apparently the risk to our engines is the ash reacting with the nickel in the compressor blades which can cause embrittlement that is irreversible. What is not known is how much exposure to what concentrations it takes to cause any real problems.

Yes, comp washing is closing the stable door but it makes people feel good.:)

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Dear CRAB and all others who seem hell bent on trashing anyone who posts a note of caution.

For the record: I will fly when the UK Government states that in their considered opinion we can do so (I think the NS was operating yesterday) and then only if my Company wants me to (ie that there are no engine TBO insurance factors they need to respect).

As I have absolutley no idea how to assess the risks of volcanic ash I place my trust in those that do.

What a surprise that several days down the road you are all beginning to dig up various reasons why flying in this cloud (even in very small concentrations) is certainly bad for the aircraft, and may possibly lead to an incident.

CRAB - I understand from your posts that you are a SAR pilot. You have my sympathy. I have done HEMS myself and there is nothing worse than not being able to make the scene of the incident/accident, for whatever reason.

Foir NigelH, having spent 3 years of my life doing HEMS, never once failing to get airborne to react, but many times having to land or turn back due to WX I am more than capable of knowing where the risks are and how to mitigate them.

None of this equates to the standards of safety that my current passengers demand and deserve (even if at times they forget this).

Mitigation of risk - is just that. If the rewards outway the risks - get on with it. The curious issue here is that when CRAB and the HEMS guys talk about rewards - they mean HELPING PEOPLE IN NEED. I suspect your reward has a more commercial implication.

Complaining that there is a lack of resources to deal with this problem properly from the outset is just plain silly. What if a massive sunspot boils the NS. Have the goverment got enough resources in place for that!!!!

Call me uneducated but I had know real idea that we have a volcano so close (looking at the map its probably closer to me here in ABZ than London) until the damn thing burped it's unholy load into the sky.

Its better on this thread now that people are actually posting informative information about the nasties of volcanic ash rather than wining cos they can't go flying.

As a public transport pilot (CAT) our first and foremost responsibility is to the PAX we intend to fly - not to profit nor to selfish wants.

As more information becomes apparent I suspect better operating strategies can be developed but none of them should be based on getting airborne JUST TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS.

CRAB - if you have dust on the nose I would suspect that your Ginger-beers are boroscoping the donkeys to see whats going on inside. Is it an S92 or a Mil machine?

[starshiptrooper]

Any idea where the turbomeca info came from re pos invalidation of pbh ? There is no new press releases on their website ?

[101BOY]

Our info came from Eurocopter UK who had an email/letter from Turbomeca.

[Gaseous]

My aircraft has been parked outside -in sunny Lancashire- unmoved since Thursday. There is now a significant coating of dust - enough that I could not fly without washing the screen. As a PPL I dont have to fly, and my take on this is, I wont till its gone. -I pay the maintenance bills. I doubt safety is a problem for piston aircraft but the maintenance issues are unknown. I suspect blade paint will be the first thing to suffer followed by high cylinder leakage at the next annual. If the ash gets past the air filter and embedded in the pistons rapid cylinder wear will occur. Oil analysis should reveal if this has happened but by then its too late. I do not know if the ash will pass the air filter. Not worth the risk for me.

[Fortyodd2]

Turbomeca have referred us to their service letter 2332/05 which outlines the precautions to be taken when operating engines in a "Polluted atmostphere". We had dust falling here on Friday but no visible amounts since then. Consequently, we are keeping the aircraft inside, responding only to tasks where there is an immediate risk to life and carrying out an engine rinse after each flight.

[roundwego]

Looks like the Northern North Sea heliops might be back in action tomorrow.

http://metoffice.com/aviation/vaac/data/VAG_1271569746.png

[Nubian]

John,

I wouldn't say "nice" of your photo as my understanding of nice means something diffrent from clearly broken aircrafts. But a great shot!

Now, on the 1st. picture I can see what looks like a Longranger hovering/landing in the background, and I am curious as to know what sort of damages that sustained or what kind of "anti volcanic-ash-kit" it was equipped with? Clearly, if the ash does not melt to glass(looks like powder to me) on the ground, then landing in half a foot of "it" with a helicopter would kick up some dust that eventually finds it way into the engine, no?



Saturday, KLM, Lufthansa, Airfrance and some other airlines took off with various aircrafts and flew sectors in their respective countries (KLM with a 737 with it's CEO on board) to see the effects on the aircrafts engines and the rest, without finding any damages whatsoever. I am not talking about that they were chasing the ash cloud, but they flew normal routes. THIS is diffrent to flying through the heart of the cloud that you can see with your own eyes, like the examples that has been re-told/re-aired (BA009 on Disc.) 200 times the last 3 days.

It's about concentration (ie. PPM) and size of the ash that will be a factor, or we have been flying around eating ash for many years unknowingly. As for the last 30 years there have been some fairly heavy eruptions around the world, which have produced a lot of ash over the years. I will not list them again... Google.com
These particals stay in the atmosphere for years and don't all come down within a matter of a few days if someone think that (of course the main parts of it will come down, but not everything)
Maybe 2010 ought to be the year, we all stopped flying as a precaution, hell then the tree-huggers would be happy too as all the bad CO2 from the aviationsector would stop and the planet is finally saved!! :ok:

[volrider]

Nubian, FYI The KLM 737 flew a great circle away from the the majority of the ash cloud (not the planned route it would have normally taken);)
But hey why let the truth get in the way:ok:
I think sadly commercial pressure will force this issue before the skys are clear

[roundwego]

Looks like the Northern North Sea heliops might be back in action tomorrow.



Maybe not !

http://metoffice.com/aviation/vaac/data/VAG_1271591498.png

[skadi]

Lufthansa ferried 10 heavies from Munich to Frankfurt, albeit at FL100; no problems there either. They even climbed to FL 240 without any effects to the aircraft and engines...

German carriers lead backlash over volcanic ash closures (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/04/18/340746/german-carriers-lead-backlash-over-volcanic-ash-closures.html)

skadi

[tomotomp]

anyone out there know of any reliable contact info re french airspace closure to VFR trafic.

thanks

[SilsoeSid]

Seems to me, amongst the tales of peril and 'death to those that dare venture yonder', 'There be Dragons', etc, all we simply need is a change of wind.

Still no danger to health or environment (only jet engines at all levels!) and the London Marathon etc is still on. (should be interesting)

Is it me or are all the GA fraternity up and at it because they can? So much for the peace and quiet round these parts, can't hear my ice chinking in the Pimms.

Wish I was stuck abroad somewhere, what on Earth is Gary Lineker doing dragging his family 2058 miles over 24 hours travelling by plane, car and train to make it back from Tenerife in time to present Match of the Day.
In harmony, you can hear his 4 sons and daughter saying 'Thanks Dad' as they return to school tomorrow.

Hey ho, lets see what happens tonight.
Have a good week y'all.

[rotorrookie]

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4002/4530928395_63004aa94a_b.jpg

Took this picture yesterday when I landed only 2NM away form crater, it was with National Geo making documentary about this eruption and troubles it caused in Europe. Bit of paradox here being able to land so close when most of your airspace is closed, ist better to be on right side when these go off.

The last wish of the Icelandic economy was to have it's ashes scattered over Europe :}
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs494.ash1/26982_115245151827290_111455325539606_215646_4921127_n.jpg

[volrider]

I think the things got lost in translation when we asked their banks for our cash back..

NATS announce UK airspace closed untill 07:00 at earliest, BA are flying a 747 to Cardiff from Heathrow to "test the air" with Willie Walsh onboard, I guess the cabin crews are interested in that flight and its outcome:E

[VeeAny]

Tomo

Does this help ?

LFFA-A2295/10
A) LFBB LFEE LFFF LFMM LFRR
B) 2010 Apr 18 14:00 C) 2010 Apr 19 13:00
E) DUE TO ICELANDIC VOLCANO EYJAFJALLAJOKULL SIGNIFICANT VOLCANIC
ACTIVITY, VFR PUBLIC AIR TRANSPORT FLIGHTS AND ALSO ALL IFR FLIGHTS
ARE PROHIBITED WITHIN FRENCH AIRSPACE, FROM SURFACE TO FL205,
LOCATED ON NORTH OF A LINE BORDEAUX-MERIGNAC LFBD (4449N-00042W)/
NICE LFMN (4339N-00712E), EXCEPT FOR FLIGHTS CONDUCTING HUMAN SAFETY
OPERATIONS.
THE AERODROMES OF BORDEAUX-MERIGNAC (LFBD) AND NICE COTE D'AZUR
(LFMN) ARE NOT CONCERNED BY THESE RESTRICTIONS.
IT IS STRONGLY REQUIRED TO VFR FLIGHTS TO CONSULT SIGMET, NOTAM AND
ASHTAM BEFORE ANY FLIGHT.
PILOTS HAVE TO PAY ATTENTION TO THE PHENOMENOUS DANGEROUSNESS AND OF
THE RISKS FOR ANY ACFT ENTERING INTO THE VOLCANIC ASH CLOUD.
PLEASE BE AWARE THAT THE CONTAMINATED AREA IS NOT NECESSARILY
VISIBLE.


Not exactly contact info, but seems to imply private is ok.

[Wizzard]

So, these restrictions are from surface level to flight level nose-bleed. Most offshore platforms rely on gas-turbine engines for their power supply - have they shut down? I don't think so! :ugh:

I've just watched a news conference with the European transport minister on the BBC - what a joke. I think there might be a few law suits flashing around "when the dust settles" :*

[roundwego]

Ash cloud forecast to reach east coast of Canada tomorrow. I wonder if they will stop flying - I suspect not.

http://metoffice.com/aviation/vaac/data/VAG_1271612174.png

[PlasticCabDriver]

Glad I'm not flying tomorrow, wouldn't want to have to deal with all that "PHENOMENOUS DANGEROUSNESS"

[Agaricus bisporus]

Surely military and civil helos have been flying in recirculating dust for donkey's years in desert and unprepared sites. Has this ever caused significant engine problems?

I once did a stint of desert ops that involved 2 jetrangers operating for about 250/300hrs with extremely dusty conditions at each T/O and landing (average sector probably a bit under an hour) visibility in recirculating dust often 10m at touchdown.

The Chief Engineer's only comment on our return was that he'd never seen such clean engine internals.

[jayteeto]

In Gulf War 1 there were two different models of Puma sand filters. One worked and one was hopeless, the bad ones caused a lot of engine damage. So yes, reciculating dust and sand does damage engines.

[F.A.TAlbert]

I vaguely remember 2 hours engine life before noticeable power loss and over temping and 30 ish hours blade life. Personally, I'll give it a go but that is only because I do not have to pay for the maintenance costs:}

[Nubian]

Volrider,

Nubian, FYI The KLM 737 flew a great circle away from the the majority of the ash cloudExactly my point! So, do you think we should continue to hold ops in this area then?

(not the planned route it would have normally taken)http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif The flight of KLM was checking diffrent altitudes up to FL300 over the Netherlands (it's not a big country I know well, but Germany is next door, so is Belgium which did their own tests) and ALL the routes into one of the biggest hubs in Europe go through that airspace, so what do you think is the NORMAL route? All routes via that little rock in the north-Atlantic?

But hey why let the truth get in the way:ok:What truth am I trying to cover?

I think sadly commercial pressure will force this issue before the skys are clearYeah, I think it should be a pressure on the authorities to conduct proper tests, that will show that it is justified danger.

Call me mad, but I don't sleep in full hockey-gear either....:eek:

[AnFI]

Another two years of this might induce someone to find out if there is actually a problem....

The government may become 'boxed in' by this if they are not careful ....

If it lasts much longer .... and eventually it is decided that it is infact ok to fly at these very very low contamination levels then the question will be how was the precautionary advice allowed to stand for so long.... at such a high cost.

It will be uncomfortable for a government to declare it is now ok to fly at these levels... leaving them open to be liable should that advice be wrong (they may have to 'underwrite' that green light for the sake of the economy?)

If this lasts much longer and it is discovered that there is a problem then mitigation measures will need to be developed..... what? Filters ... at those flow rates ... unlikely. Maybe mandatory inspections per flight in the 'red area' ?

50m quid spent finding out is cheap and it needs to have been done yesterday....

Didn't the 747 with the 4 flameouts fly through the dense main plume - millions of times greater concentration than this 8/8 ths blue sky. Totally different to this situation?

Maybe a SVFR in class A controlled airspace will allow airliners to 'see and avoid' dense volcanic ash plumes and thus alleviate the impossible task of controllers to provide separation from this hazard which is invisible to them.... ?

ICAO will be setup as the 'fall guy' if someone does positively determine that htere is no problem.

[SilsoeSid]

Grapevine has it that an ASU is operating a 'limited service' case by case.
Day VFR only, Night 'Cat A' tasking only.
Both engines for take off/landing/task but one put to idle for cruise.
In the event of 'abnormalities', Idle engine placed to Flight, Flight Engine placed to Idle, RTB.

Serve and Protect. :ok:

[alpineflyers]

Read this, I think it will show how dangerous volanic ash really is.

Should planes fly in Iceland volcano ash? Be careful, study says. / The Christian Science Monitor - CSMonitor.com (http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2010/0418/Should-planes-fly-in-Iceland-volcano-ash-Be-careful-study-says.)

PM me if you want the NASA study in pdf, it is really interesting and an eye opener.

[SilsoeSid]

alpineflyer,
To those who won´t believe the dangers

Did you read the case study though?

"Engine Damage to a NASA DC-8-72
Airplane From a High-Altitude Encounter
With a Diffuse Volcanic Ash Cloud"

37,000ft.
I think that's a bit high for most helicopters!!

[alpineflyers]

how can you be sure there is no ash cloud at 2000 or 3000 feet?

[SilsoeSid]

how can you be sure there is no ash cloud at 2000 or 3000 feet?

Iceland volcano ash is 'no threat to human health' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8622362.stm)
The UK Health Protection Agency (HPA) has said that the cloud of ash from Iceland's recent volcanic eruption is not a significant public health risk.

The plume of volcanic ash has grounded flights across the UK, but the HPA says that it is "trapped" in the atmosphere at high altitude.

Unless 2/3000ft is considered high altitude, that's how. :ok:
Besides, I haven't heard of any cordoning off of Snowdon, Scafell or Ben Nevis...yet. ;)

[Agaricus bisporus]

Am I alone in feeling intensely uncomfortable that advice on flying thru ash is being promulgated by such scientific, rational and logic-based organizations as the Christian "Science" monitor, fer Chrissakes????

Why not enlist rational and qualified experts like Chemtrails or Rage against the Machine, or the Pope and the Moonies on this too???

Dear, oh Dear.


:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Heli-Ice]

Rotorrookie

Flott mynd meistari!

Volrider
So true, we don't have "C" in our alphabet anymore :}

[B.U.D.G.I.E]

Seems now the bloke who was doing the forecast has got his 3 yr old child to do it with a red crayon...

Not looking good

Image link: Met Office (http://metoffice.com/aviation/vaac/data/VAG_1271655414.png)

[AnFI]

A British Airways Boeing 747 completed a successful test flight in "perfect" conditions and without encountering any difficulties, the airline said.
Lufthansa and Air Berlin said Sunday that the decision to close much of Europe's airspace was not based on proper testing and that their aircraft showed no signs of damage after flying without passengers.

Secretary Lord Adonis said after an *emergency meeting of ministers at 10 Downing Street that data from the test flights would be considered today.

[[email protected]]

I am sure Gordon will make a big election issue out of how his govt cleared the skies when they open UK airspace again.

Not surprised the airlines took it into their own hands to assess the real danger from the ash as opposed to the theoretical danger - and guess what, no problems found.

If the engines have a reduced TBO because they are flown in low ash concentrations then it will be a small price to pay for getting air traffic moving again - and without compromising safety because the engines were never going to stop in such low concentrations anyway.

[AnFI]

Right now, the biggest impact for business is the sheer number of executives who are stuck abroad, unable to come home.
"The real danger for them is that we'll discover we don't really need them," one business leader joked.


(CRAB: hear, hear!)

[AnFI]

Meanwhile Gordon Brown has recalled cabinet ministers from the campaign to deal with the air crisis
- they will hold a Cobra emergency planning meeting at 0830 BST.

[tomotomp]

thanks for that but I have seen that, was hopeing that I could actualy speak to someone as the Notam for closure takes a bit of time to get into the system.
:ok:

[SilsoeSid]

Europe Under Health Warning Due to Volcanic Ash
Europe Under Health Warning Due to Volcanic Ash (http://www.emaxhealth.com/1506/europe-under-health-warning-due-volcanic-ash.html)

Best part of the article has to be;

Health officials are certain that the ash will not cause any ill health effects in the United States, except, however, for the acute stress travelers might feel from not being able to fly into or out of European airports because the ash is too dangerous for aircraft to fly through.

Loads of work coming up for the therapists ;)

[rotorspeed]

What I find frustrating and remarkable is that there appears to be no objective measure of the low level ash particulates that are a threat to VFR aircraft. If you have asthma for example, the pollen count provides a measure of threat that sufferers can consider and potentially avoid.

It is ridiculous that it is considered that there is no risk to anything at ground level in the UK yet as soon as you get a few 100 ft up the world is apparently quite different.

I'm not flying not because of any real safety concerns but because I don't want to risk accelerating insidious erosion etc damage to my turbine engines. What is really required though is an objective numerical value that can be measured across affected areas and engine/airframe manufacturers then recommend what they think is an acceptable level of contaminants for flying to take place.

Surely it can't be hard to measure, given the huge impact on peoples lives? It seems just all to subjective at the moment.

[SilsoeSid]

Volcanic ash grounds Britain for days to come -Times Online (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/travel/news/article7101162.ece)

Scientists had thought that the volcano was abating, but yesterday saw some of the strongest eruptions yet as it blasted plumes of ash more than 30,000ft high.

Geologists have no idea when it will stop. An eruption in Iceland in 1973 lasted more than five months.


VAAS/Met Office Cimate change. Has my car tax gone down yet or are they still advising the Govt that my car is destroying the Planet?

It's as if card playing Mother Nature is saying to the Prius drivers out there, "I'll see your 89g/kg, just cop a load of this".

[TRC]

I've read this thread from start to here. I am not a doom-monger.

The references to physical damage to helicopters seem to be almost entirely focussed on engines, some reference to m/r blades and a passing reference to windscreens.

On Friday, my car had a liberal coating of fine, talc-like dust which felt quite abrasive. On Saturday, after washing the screen there was a different deposit that looked like glass crystals.

My point here is that any moving parts of any machine are likely to be subject to accelerated wear if they are operated in these conditions of contamination. Not just the well-publicised engine problems.

I'm thinking:
Swashplate bearings
M/R feathering, teetering, flap and drag bearings
T/R bearings
Rod end bearings
Etc.

Just my ha'pennies worth.

[Cuddles]

@ Wizzard.

When was the last time you saw the Beryl Bravo flying along at 3000 ft?

[skadi]

An eruption in Iceland in 1973 lasted more than five months.

And what effect did that to the airtraffic then ??
I guess: NONE!

skadi

[Thomas coupling]

This is a simple dilemma to address. In order of priority:
(a) Ask your insurance company will they cover you for flying during this advisory period.
(b) If the answer to (a) is yes - ask yourself: do you feel lucky today??

[volrider]

Sid you make some very good points there, if in fact your car and mine are killing the climate, then surely the Icelandic folk who seem to have the highest emissions competition sewn up will pay my increasing car tax:E
I found healthy deposits of ash all down the side of my car today...fag ash I think...

[noblades]

Is this Risk management's 1st real testing?

Theory?....Safety is paramount!!!! P.C. and will be stance from NAA'a

Reality.... Profit is paramount.. prolonged grounding of operators will bankrupt the same companies that provide the NAA's with their profits.
No Operators = No need for NAA's

I wonder will it end up as an a** covering exercise?

NAA's "safety is responsibility of operators"
Operators "Enviroment Safety is responsibility of NAA"
Manufacturer " we're staying the hell out of this one"

Fasinating to watch real case unfold. I time this will become a great case study.

[Nubian]

TRC,

I'm thinking:
Swashplate bearings
M/R feathering, teetering, flap and drag bearings
T/R bearings
Rod end bearings
Etc.And yet these components are operating in various types of sand and salt all the time, allthough sometimes with shorter component-life, (ie. you change them when they have reached the tolerance limit, instead of acc. hours/years in service) But this happens all the time regardless operations.

TT-straps, elastomeric dampeners, seals etc. etc. etc. list is long.

Reasons for focusing on blades and engine for me, is due to the fact, that if those parts suddenly break, things are more serious than if your pitch-links develop more than the tolerance of play. I really would like to see the pitch change bearings, that fails catastrophically from in good conditions at preflight, in the +-3,5 hours normal endurance that most helicopters have on a full bag of gas without NO other indications of problems! Wind-screens are not really an issue as I normally not fly above 140kts. I usually avoid things coming my way that I don't want to bump into as well, ie; clouds, trees, mountains, towers, etc.

Aircrafts just don't fall out of the sky, without some indications first (if we exclude "certain" helicopters suffering MGB-zeisures, Turbine-runaways, bladeflinging and other mechanical failures etc.) for the ones that do think that. Even the famous BA 747 didn't crash, after it's encounter with the ash.

Do, anyone know of any accidents fatal or not caused by ash at all? I am seriously interessted. Can't google anything besides of how to avoid it (lots of info) but no accident report. (only the known incidents)
I would like to compare that to the amount of accident which is caused by lets see...... weather (windshear, microbursts, rain, snow, Frezzing fog/rain, CB's on final.... eh, in fact ALL weather-related accidents)

Torquestripe,

Maybe someone in the "system" want to get rid of the rich people with biz-jets and save the A4-family form extinction....;) (must be a good one for the conspiracy-teorists)
The decision of the Dutch CAA, is not really surprizing as they told media (pretty much the same story with the Germans) just after the KLM test, that they were not interessted in the findings, and rather rely on computor models!

A tad arrogant or just another CYA situation or maybe both?

[ShyTorque]

Some years ago, on a foreign tour, we used to fly around all summer with the sky bright red or brown from dust thrown up by heavy vehicles, sometimes to the point of IMC. There was never an engine failure in the three years I was there.

It's about time this overcautious nonsense about the safety of helicopters in a tiny bit of fallout over London was stopped and we all went back to work. :hmm:

[TRC]

Nubian,

I did make it clear that I was drawing attention to:

.....moving parts of any machine are likely to be subject to accelerated wear if they are operated in these conditions of contamination

I wasn't suggesting that these components will suddenly fail.

The purpose of my first post was to draw attention to those flying so called 'immune' piston powered helicopters (and everyone else, whatever they fly) that unusual rates of wear to other parts of their helicopters may occur if they fly in alleged contaminated air.

(In the 36 years of my career as a helicopter LAE, I have been involved in crop spraying & desert operations in E. Africa and Morocco. I know a little bit about abrasive operating environments)

[SilsoeSid]

So it looks like British Airspace will start opening up again tomorrow.
BBC News - Northern UK airspace to reopen after volcanic ash chaos (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8630455.stm)

The problem we have now results from the hoo ha from the insurers, manufacturers et al. jerking their knees and seeing a quick buck come service time. By them stipulating that flight withing the 'red area' invalidates any insurances or warranties, we are still going to be stuck on the ground until the 'red area' moves. I suggest written permissions from the same are needed before ops resume.

Anyone else notice the recent rapid shifting of the red area, despite what the rest of the Met Offices site tells us? (synoptics and high alt winds) I wonder how long it is before the Met Office models move the red line away from the UK.

The competition for Miss Exeter was particularly fierce this year ;)
Met Office Modelling (http://www.monkton-farleigh.co.uk/sc_ru_1001.jpg)

[[email protected]]

The NASA report linked through alpine flyers earlier post highlights the problems with high bypass turbofans on airliners being the blocking of the cooling holes and passages in the turbine blades rather than the melting of the ash in the combustion chamber.

The turbine blades are then operating above their design temperature which will affect their life but not their ability to work - it is still a case of accepting engineering penalties and getting flying again rather than not flying because of a safety risk that the engines might flame out.

We have had all sorts of helpful people on the news saying things like 'a double engine failure in say a 767, will mean all on board will die' - talk about scaremongering:ugh:

[ECFAN]

Saw this on CNN.com

Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com (http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2010/04/17/tuchman.volcano.helicopter.cnn?iref=allsearch)

[MightyGem]

Seems to be a fair bit of flying in the ash at the moment:
http://www.radarvirtuel.com/#

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Crab - If a turbine blade/stator vane is allowed to heat up beyond its melting temperature I very much doubt that you will much time to worry about its design life. The thing will eventually fail - probably with catastrophic results.

Thats why the powers that be are soooo cautious. The worst that can happen....is just BAD.

The NASA aircraft flew in the cloud for 7 minutes. A cloud that was not detected by the operating crew, just the boffins in the back.

I think you optimism is commendable but flawed.

[birrddog]

I have not read anything where someone has claimed the fan blades will melt; they will overheat, and become brittle, increasing their rate of natural wear.

This is not something that will happen in one flight, and with the right inspection procedures can be monitored with a good degree of reliability.

Your maintenance bills will go up, and you will be down for more service periods; I don't believe anyone claims this is something that will happen in the midst of a single flight in 8/8 skies.

[Droopy]

The competition for Miss Exeter was particularly fierce this year

The blonde on the left with a head growing out of each shoulder looks familiar :ooh:

[VeeAny]

Folks,

I've started to put together a site on Volcanic ash and info about it for us as pilots, its not detailed enough to be of great use yet but its a start. There is nothing on it you couldn't get from Google info wise, with the exception of some tools that come straight from my in house collection.

You can find it at

ASHTAM Home :: ASHTAM The Aviation, Volcanic Information Site (http://www.ashtam.co.uk)

There is Google Earth Plotter of the volcanic ash Advisories that you can play with the different layers in, it gives I believe a reasonable picture of where the models say the ash cloud is or will be at a point in time, the folder names should give away what you are looking at.

If you just want the latest KML file without having to visit the site it can be found at http://www.ashtam.co.uk/VACloud.KML

Before anyone says it, I know I need to get out more.

Gary

[AnFI]

Anyone know why the Heathrow zone is closed to (S) VFR traffic?

Private individuals can fly if they wish - but not in 'our' airspace Jack ... it's not exactly too busy - is it?

[AnFI]

One: Find scapegoat , ICAO? Metoffice? NATS? Brown? Adonis? CAA?
(A knighthood for whichever chairman takes the blame .... hurry.)

Two: "We (the government) can't say yes it's up to you private industry to make your own decision" ("here is the data we have collected using your tax funded equipment")

(Three: Dammage will happen ... "told you so")

Maybe the other European countries will stop blindly following the UK on aviation matters - too late I guess....:ugh:

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Apparently Cheryl Cole is inconsolable as she has just learned that Ash has probably F****d most of Europe!!

(Just to lighten the mood)

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

THE FOLLOWING TAKEN FROM THE NASA REPORT

Engine Damage to a NASA DC-8-72
Airplane From a High-Altitude Encounter
With a Diffuse Volcanic Ash Cloud

In the early morning hours of February 28, 2000, the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) DC-8 Airborne Sciences research airplane inadvertently flew through a diffuse plume of volcanic ash from the Mt. Hekla volcano. There were no indications to the flight crew, but sensitive onboard instruments detected the 35-hr-old ash plume. Upon landing there was no visible damage to the airplane or engine first-stage fan blades; later borescope inspection of the engines revealed clogged
turbine cooling air passages.

The engines were removed and overhauled at a cost of $3.2 million. Satellite data analysis of the volcanic ash plume trajectory indicated the ash plume had been transported further north than predicted by atmospheric effects. Analysis of the ash particles collected in cabin air heat exchanger filters showed strong evidence of volcanic ash, most of which may have been ice-coated (and therefore less damaging to the airplane) at the time of the encounter. Engine operating temperatures at the time of the encounter were sufficiently high to cause melting and fusing of ash on and inside high-pressure turbine blade cooling passages.

There was no evidence of engine damage in the engine trending results, but some of the turbine blades had been operating partially uncooled and may have had a remaining lifetime of as little as 100 hr.

There are currently no fully reliable methods available to flight crews to detect the presence of a diffuse, yet potentially damaging volcanic ash cloud.


NASA are all Astronauts so they should know.

Not a good read if you are keen to go flying.

[nigelh]

Well DB , i,m going flying now . Beautiful day , people to fly ...perfect . Now you have a nice day sitting at home alright ?? :ok::ok:
And the cheryl Cole one is .....whats the difference between Cheryl and the Volcano .......the Volcano is still blowing ash .:D

[Coconutty]

Re the "Still no risk to health" quotes - This appears to be backed up by NATS @ 0245 today :

The information shows that Scottish airsports should be available from 0700

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Hi NigelH,

Good one. Any more volcano jokes out there.

Went to work this morning ready to go flying. No IFR flight permitted. Sitting on arse all day AGAIN!!

Went to Iceland (Supermarket) for something nice for tea. Cashier asked me "Would you like some Ash-back"...................the whole place erupted!!

NigelH enjoy your day and if you are brave enough to do some VFR out over the NS there are plenty of passengers who are gaggin for it.

DB

[The Count]

Tried to do the heliroutes on Saturday night and there wasn't even anyone manning the radio! (Thames or Heathrow!!) :eek:

[[email protected]]

DB - as birddog says there is no threat of turbine failure, just increased wear and decreased service life - they are not being operated above their melting point, just their designed operating temperature which will have been calculated so the engine makes its TBOs.

See Nick Lappos' old thread re engines and beans:ok:

[EESDL]

Sunday 830pm local
Sea King requesting to drop-off med team into Regents Park......refused as wasn't Cat1......
Intrigued to hear if your plea to ATC work?

[VeeAny]

Seems common sense (from an airspace point of view) is beginning to prevail

WITH IMMEDIATE EFFECT THE CHANNEL ISLANDS CONTROL ZONE (CICZ) WILL NOT PRECLUDE SPECIAL VFR WI THE CICZ CLASS A AIRSPACE. THE REGULATOR IS MAKING NO JUDGEMENTS AS TO THE SUITABILITY OF THE ENVIRONMENT FOR FLIGHTS AND IT IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE INDIVIDUAL OPERATOR TO CARRY OUT THEIR OWN RISK ASSESSMENT PRIOR TO FLIGHT AND SHOULD BE AWARE THAT THEY ARE FLYING INTO AIRSPACE WHERE THERE IS A KNOWN RISK TO AVIATION DUE TO VOLCANIC ASH. PILOTS SHOULD BRIEF THEMSELVES BEFORE FLIGHT ON THE ATC SERVICES AVBL FM ADJACENT ATC UNITS ON LEAVING THE CICZ AND ON CROSSING THE ZONE BOUNDARY, PILOTS MUST ENSURE THAT THEY ARE ABLE TO CONTINUE VFR.

I am lead to believe other bits of similarly classed airspace are soon to follow :D.

[VeeAny]

Special VFR now back in action in CTRs in the UK and Channel Isles.

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/7/20100419SVFRContingencyPolicyLetter.pdf

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

CRAB, I think you are rather missing the point. The design temperature limits for rotable components within a gas turbine hot end section are critical. That is exactly why tertiary air is used within the engine to maintain a stable temperature environment within which the components will survive.

Operating the engine in conditions, such as with airways and internal pathways blocked, especially within turbine blade and hub tree components does not simply mean that the TBO is compromised. What it means is that the inherent properties of the material, proven at a design temperature range, are entirely different when operated outside that design temperature range.

With turbine blades in particular, elasticity and thus "creep" tends to be the first indications of prolonged operation beyond the designed range (and by prolonged I do not mean weeks, but several minutes).

Thus there are no methods by which TBO can be reduced, simply due to operation beyond designed temperature ranges, and the real issue here is if such operations occurred unforeseen and undetected, catastrophic failure of the hot end is the most probable result.

That is precisley why hot end temperature limits are defined in Flight Manuals down to single degrees. The criteria and acceptable operating ranges are that critical.

The temperature we measure (and view in the cockpit) bears only a limited relationship with the critical temperatures experienced in the business bits of the hot end. Thus start temperatures and operating temperatures may differ with engine speed, as this is a function of total air mass available through the engine, the majority of which is used for flame shaping and tertiary cooling. Only a fraction of the sucked in the intake is actually used for conbustion.

Blocked air passageways within a turbine engine are an extermely serious condition, thus the immediate $3.2m overhaul of all 4 of the NASA aircraft engines.

I am not an expert in this field, far from it but I do have an aerospace engineering background to draw upon. I think it is very foolish to think that these issues are not important.

Taken as a whole this very subject is the meat and two veg of the current European policy for flight within Volcanic ash/dust environments. Modern turbine engines simply cannot endure prolonged operation in certain types of particulate atmosphere especially those emanating from volcanos.

Do you really believe that the entire European Aviation Indistry is currently being compromised by regulators who simply devise policy on a whim or the back of a fag packet.

The problem with this thread, and those who post one dimensional devil may care posts is that such individuals will never have to suffer the consequences of what they post.

I am an operational NS pilot and although I can appreciate the reasons behind the extreme caution of the European Governments I will not hesitate to start flying as soon as the restrictions are lifted, cos also taken as a whole, my expertise lies in flying helicopters and not the in depth risk assessment and decision making process necessary to ensure that we can operate safely within the current volcanic conditions.

As an aside, we have had one catstrophic engine failure (in my time) on the NS. Due to an overspeed but the results were horrific and there was not much life left in the PAX or crew long before the aircraft hit the sea.

Its all very nice and dandy to feel that what we are experiencing is overkill or just plain daft. But the days of thinking there will just be a bit of a bang down the back, and no bother we've got two engines are long gone. Modern helicopter engines let go with a spectacular bang when a catastrophic failure occurs.

That is a grown-ups explanation - just for you. My reference to the blades "melting" in my earlier posts is a bit of poetic licence............but, actually the results are about the same.

I will wait until a grown up says it is OK to fly.

[101BOY]

Given the CAA policy letter, will the London CTR re-open and therefore Battersea? Why the 5700kg limit - only the S92 and AW139 likely to be affected civvie wise?

[[email protected]]

DB - thankyou for the egg-sucking lesson on engines 101, one doesn't need an 'aerospace background' to know this stuff;) You really are a 'glass half empty' sort of fellow.

My 'one-dimensional devil may care' attitude seems to be reflected by the carriers who are desperate to get back in the air - the European policy, whilst not quite 'back of a fag packet' stuff, is a typical EU 'one size fits all' approach which gives little flexibility in such a variable and rapidly changing situation.

Increased inspections, especially borescoping, will show signs of creep and allow the increased wear to be assessed appropriately rather than the knee jerk 'flown through ash - scrap the engines' approach.

Not quite sure what the catastrophic failure in the NS has to do with this thread or maybe you think you have to amplify the dangers of an engine failure (more eggs methinks).;)

[Up Heli R]

Anyone know how much damage was done to the CHC (Netherlands) AW139 after it flew through some ash at the weekend?

[ShyTorque]

Double Bogey, The point you are missing is that the entire FIR was closed as a broadbrush reaction with no conclusive research done. It will be re-opened in the same manner.

As a NS pilot you have the comfortable position of a relatively large organisation plus a union to back you up and can take no personal responsibility for risk assessment. Others don't and must make their own assessment. Me included.

If you think this reaction by the authorities was much more than a huge backside covering issue, look at the additional requirements now demanded to begin use of Battersea heliport again. I'm beginning to think they want no trade at all.

[Up Heli R]

TorqueStripe,

Thanks for that. Must have been a wicked rumour?

R

[S76Heavy]

Shytorque, I agree with your viewpoint.

From the beginning it was clear that the "no risk" position taken by those who hold office and responsibility, meant a wholly different risk than that meant by those at the pointy end.

It is the "one fell swoop" approach that leaves us with no options, and no confidence in the supposed "knowledge" and "professionality" of decision makers.
Swine flu panic and Millenium Bug have been mentioned as well; more examples of huge overreaction of decision makers unwilling to open themselves up to potential claims after using good judgement and not pleasing everybody.

What has happened is that unlike many compressors, trust has been eroded to the point where replacement is due. Next time someting big comes around, many if not most people will automatically go into sceptic mode because of experiences like this.
That is where the real danger lies, in my opinion.

Nobody advocated flight through the big ashcloud. But to have an emergency response plan without any flex to take into account what happens in the real world to and with real people, is sheer folly.

It is nice to sit on your backside knowing that you are protected by the lack of alternatives. But for many that is not the case, and while nobody wants to risk life and limb, there is a grea area that needs to be defined. For the next time, because it will happen again. Somewhere soon.

[SilsoeSid]

2009 Press Releases (http://www.birminghamairport.co.uk/news.aspx?id=10&articleid=602)
Due to Volcanic activity in Iceland, there will be no flights in or out of Birmingham Airport until at least 1AM Wednesday 21st April.

Despite the above, and still being in the red area until 1200Z tomorrow, (according to the most recent charts) how come I've just seen a Cessna 510 Citation Mustang, D-IEGO, depart on 33?

Photo Search Results | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?aircraft_genericsearch=&airlinesearch=&countrysearch=&specialsearch=&daterange=&keywords=iego&range=&sort_order=photo_id+desc&page_limit=15&thumbnails=)

Note: It has 2x PW615F turbofans
Cessna Citation Mustang - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_Citation_Mustang)


Operators
The aircraft is operated by private individuals, companies and executive charter operators. A number of companies also use the aircraft as part of fractional ownership programs.

Commercial pressures?

[tvpilot]

BREAKING NEWS

CAA: ALL UK Airports to open at 22:00 tonight

UK?S INDEPENDENT AVIATION REGULATOR ISSUES GUIDANCE TO OPEN AIRSPACE WITH SAFETY RESTRICTIONS | CAA Newsroom | CAA (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=14&pagetype=65&appid=7&newstype=n&mode=detail&nid=1862)

BBC:

BBC News - UK airports set to reopen (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8633597.stm)

All UK airports can reopen from 2200 BST on Tuesday, the Transport Secretary Lord Adonis has said.

Lord Adonis made the statement after consultation with the Civil Aviation Authority and a reassessment of the risk to aircraft from volcanic ash.

Some restrictions will remain in place, but they will be much smaller than those enforced under the current ban.

Lord Adonis said after the ban was lifted it would be up to airlines to bring flight schedules back on track.

Dame Deirdre Hutton of the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) said there had been detailed consultation with experts to reassess the tolerance of planes to the ash cloud.

Lord Adonis emphasised that safety remained paramount.

He said: "It is essential that we guarantee to the travelling public that the airlines are safe and that planes can safely fly."

[SilsoeSid]

BBC News - UK airports set to reopen (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8633597.stm)

UK airports to reopen from 2200

All UK airports can re-open from 2200 BST, the Transport Secretary Lord Adonis has said.

Lord Adonis made the statement after consultation with the Civil Aviation Authority and a reassessment of the risk to aircraft from volcanic ash.

Some restrictions will remain in place, but they will be much smaller than those enforced under the current ban.

Lord Adonis said after the ban was lifted it would be up to airlines to bring flight schedules back on track


Unless they mean 2200, as in 190 years time :ok:

[SilsoeSid]

Why not 2100hrs or 'with immediate effect'.
I guess maybe it's to give me time to have some beans on toast!

Happy flying y'all, shame sunset has gone for some of us :(

[Droopy]

This seems to be the link allowing operator discretion:-

UK'S INDEPENDENT AVIATION REGULATOR ISSUES GUIDANCE TO OPEN AIRSPACE WITH SAFETY RESTRICTIONS | CAA Newsroom | CAA (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=14&pagetype=65&appid=7&mode=detail&nid=1862)

The Civil Aviation Authority (CAA), the UK’s independent specialist regulator with oversight of aviation safety, today issues new guidance on the use of airspace. This is issued in conjunction with the Irish Aviation Authority (IAA) and covers the Anglo Irish Functional Airspace Block (FAB).

The new guidance allows a phased reintroduction from 2200 tonight of much of the airspace which is currently closed due to the volcanic ash plume over the UK. There will continue to be some ‘no fly zones’ where concentrations of ash are at levels unsafe for flights to take place, but very much smaller than the present restrictions. Furthermore, the Met Office advise that the ‘no fly zones’ do not currently cover the UK.

“Making sure that air travellers can fly safely is the CAA’s overriding priority.

“The CAA has drawn together many of the world’s top aviation engineers and experts to find a way to tackle this immense challenge, unknown in the UK and Europe in living memory. Current international procedures recommend avoiding volcano ash at all times. In this case owing to the magnitude of the ash cloud, its position over Europe and the static weather conditions most of the EU airspace had to close and aircraft could not be physically routed around the problem area as there was no space to do so. We had to ensure, in a situation without precedent, that decisions made were based on a thorough gathering of data and analysis by experts. This evidence based approach helped to validate a new standard that is now being adopted across Europe.

“The major barrier to resuming flight has been understanding tolerance levels of aircraft to ash. Manufacturers have now agreed increased tolerance levels in low ash density areas.”

Our way forward is based on international data and evidence from previous volcanic ash incidents, new data collected from test flights and additional analysis from manufacturers over the past few days. It is a conservative model allowing a significant buffer on top of the level the experts feel may pose a risk.

In addition, the CAA’s Revised Airspace Guidance requires airlines to:
· conduct their own risk assessment and develop operational procedures to address any remaining risks;
· put in place an intensive maintenance ash damage inspection before and after each flight; and
· report any ash related incidents to a reporting scheme run by the CAA.

The CAA will also continue to monitor the situation with tests both in the air and on the ground.


NOTES TO EDITORS:
1. The CAA’s Revised Airspace Guidance will be based on new engine ash tolerance levels and will apply to low ash density areas identified by the Met Office. This information will be circulated on a six hourly basis. Areas where ash levels are at ³ 10-16, plus a sixty mile buffer zone, will remain no fly zones.
2. The CAA is the UK's specialist aviation regulator. Its activities include: making sure that the aviation industry meets the highest technical and operational safety standards; preventing holidaymakers from being stranded abroad or losing money because of tour operator insolvency; planning and regulating all UK airspace; and regulating airports, air traffic services and airlines and providing advice on aviation policy from an economic standpoint.

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

CRAB, I concede.

You are obviously much more informed than I gave you credit for.

You are clearly right and the rest of the safety system is wrong. Maybe you should be running the CAA/Government.

You do not know as much about engines as you think you do. Once a turbine blade has "crept" there is no contingency. The crystiline structure of the material has changed forever. Thats why temperature control in our engines is critical. I hope you suck eggs better than you understand gas turbine engines and materials technology. Creep causes contact with the turbine shroud, which is why during every after flight this is checked by manually rotating the turbine. If it has "crept" the hot end is in the bin. period. Continued life is not an option. Thats why the risks (real, imaginary or over emphasised) of contaminating and engine with volcanic ash has been taken very seriously.

Just what was the alternative....carry on regardless and collect data along the way, running the risk of losing airframes and lives.

I think if you sit down, crack a beer and think very carefully about what has happened you will be hard pressed to have come up with any other solution than the cautious approach shopwn by the regulators and the governments.

The link with the NS accident simply serves to demonstrate the true horror of catastrophic hot end failure. Maybe your imagination simply does not function like mine. I use mine to stay safe.


Like I said some people will never have to suffer the consequnces of their ill concieved statements.

As I have always stated I will fly when those more informed tell me it is OK to do so. Thats how the safety system is supposed to work.

If flying resumes tommorrow I hope for everybody's sake you (CRAB) are 100% correct and the threat has been overstated. Its not the result that matters here, it's the journey taken to achieve it.

DB

[maeroda]

For your information above Italy there is no volcanic ash at all.
Those genious professionals of ENAC (FAA or CAA equivalents) had stopped ALL IFR and VFR flights over all the entire air space above the country.
Somebody is wondering why no stop is imposed ammong ETNA volcano activity lasting all year long that throws tonnes of ash upon something like 500thousand people, also SID's and STAR's from Catania airport being just in the very middle of the ever lasting smoke exiting from the edge of the volcano 24/7.
I normally fly every day in HEMS in such an environment with a B412, no problem at all.

No question about ash cloud is a danger for air transport, as all pilots know.

Arrogance can beat worse than a volcano, especially if aviation rulemakers are ignorant!!

[AnFI]

SilsoeSid: Look now at RadarVirtuel.com with a Volcano Ashes Layer (http://www.radarvirtuel.com/#) (courtesy MightGem)...

.... Willy Walsh must have forced this by having his planes hold (look at the spectacular holds of the inbound BA aircraft) and I guess they're playing tough with him to not let them in....... waiting till their low fuel forces a bigger divert... hence not:"with imediate effect"

Watch it live!

Well done CAA getting the SVFR going - some common sense:D

[nigelh]

Hi DB . For one moment in your previous post i thought you had woken up ...but then your next post proved me wrong !! You really are a creature of habit ...i guess it is your job where your every move is directed and sanctioned by someone from above ....if you ever leave your job and go into the real world you may find you have to make some of your own calls ....not leave it to another grown up . I have flown for 6 hrs today in gin clear skies ..for some unknown reason we had to fly through City airspace as Heathrow was closed , even for a Burnham / Ascot route ....why ?????? There is no sense or logic ...it is just beaurocrats doing what they do best ...sitting on a fence . Why was it safe to fly down the Thames East to West .....but apparently NOT west to East . DB i am sure you will agree West to East is v dangerous indeed !!!!
Anyway yet another beautiful gin clear , perfect flying day and a whole load of pilots , even vfr ones , sitting on the ground .
ps The insurance argument doesnt wash either as they have no right to restrict your insurance ...you have a contract with them which covers you for all legal flights ...if they say you are not insured " simples....." tell them to shove their premiums and move your policy or simpler , just keep flying and dont ask them as they will always take a "no flying " option but still take your premium . I think the UK aviation community have proved what a bunch of Lemmings they are ....all not flying ( for no reason ) then suddenly all flying ( again for no good reason !! ) A pathetic chapter in UK Eurolalaland Aviation.

[HillerBee]

As I have always stated I will fly when those more informed tell me it is OK to do so. Thats how the safety system is supposed to work.

That's exactly what I seriously doubt. Decisions were made on assumptions, computer models, etc. There is no system in place to actually measure the amount of ash. (all said before)

A cloud has to be visible otherwise it's not a cloud. If there are invisible ash particles in the air it's more like an 'ash bubble' ..........

It's been a very expensive over-reaction

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

IRONCHEFFLAY, Thanks for the information. I undertsand all of that. What my post refers to specifically is the NASA DC-8 incident (occurred druing a 7 minute flight through an unseen volcanic ash cloud of minute particles North of Iceland in 2000.

The result was as you describe, melting of the particles onto the turbine blades and partial blocking of the air holes that maintain the temperatures of the blades wihtin their design profile.

This incident was highly specific and the results were belived to have been caused by the particles being coated in ice, allowing them to get all the way through the engine withoun deterioration until they hit the hot turbine blades. NASA speculated that the specifics of the incidnet added greatly to the very rapid deterioration of the blades.

The engine manufacturer stripped all four engines. They
state in the report that the blades were less than 100 hours from failure.

The most important issue here is that the flight crew and the afterflight did not pick up the contamination in the normal inspection phase. It was only the presence of highly sensitve volcano sniffing kit in the back (as it was a valcano monitoring flight) that alerted them to the fact they had an encounter with ash.

My point on this post, is that believing we can regularly operate in significant ashclouds, and simply expect a redcution in Turbine TBO is naive when considered against the NASA incident.

I have had a turbine jammed (on AS355 - Allsion 250 engine) found during an after flight. The strip report concluded that a manufacturing error had occurred allowing the trubine baldes to creep and contact the shroud. The turbine was 8 hours old. I was lucky that the turbine diod not let go in flight. Tha same result will occur if massive overtemp of the turbine blades is effected in flight.

I think you will agree that if you found a jammed turbine during after flight the conclusion would have to be that the crew were very lucky to complete the last flight without a major problem.

I am not concerned at all flying in the current conditions that the CAA and Governmet have decided are acceptable buit it is not by accident we can only do so provided an increase in monitoring is implemented.

[[email protected]]

Air traffic control company Nats insisted it faced no political pressure to ease the restrictions.

"We don't feel we have been under pressure from the Government," said spokesman Alex Bristol.

"Where the pressure has come has been to better understand the safety implications."

- we overreacted on poor information and have been forced to reassess

Transport Secretary Lord Adonis said there was now a "better" understanding of the effects of volcanic ash on aircraft.

"The CAA have been working around the clock with the aircraft manufacturing industry, the airlines and the research community to better understand how different concentrations of ash affect aircraft engines," he said.

"As a result, the CAA has now established a wider area in which it is safe to fly, consistent with the framework agreed by the EU transport ministers."

- We are climbing down from out untenable position because we now know that nanny doesn't know best

Willie Walsh, chief executive of British Airways, has said "lessons can be learned" from the handling of the event.

He added: "I don't believe it was necessary to impose a blanket ban on all UK airspace last Thursday.

"My personal belief is that we could have safely continued operating for a period of time."

- the airlines are looking for someone to blame

Strangely as predicted - despite the new eruptions.

DB-I am well aware of the premature embrittlement of the turbine blades caused by excessive temperatures - we were warned of this last week.

Iron - I suggest you read the NASA report on the inadvertant entry to ash cloud about exactly how the damage occurred - the holes were blocked in the turbine blades because the ash is different to sand. Now I know you know more about engines than me but excessive creep would mean the blades would impinge on the casing which would certainly be visible with a borescope, wouldn't it?

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

NIGELh

I cannot understand what you would expect the regulators to do. I presume nothing. Just carry on regardless and if something falls out of the sky then we will deal with it.

Of course they have not got it 100% right. They have tried to do the best fin the interests of safety. The passengers interviewed last night ion TV were repeatedily drawn by the jouro to try and critise the regulator and to a man they all said the same thing. They would rather have stayed on the ground if there was any doubt.

I have never intimated what you are doing is not safe nor has the regulator since he has allowed you to do it. As you have probably made a fat wad out of the crisis I am surprised you whinging at all.

As far as maiking may own descisions, thats just insulting. You have no idea what my backgorund is and I guess you have never flown Offshore.

Blowhards like you are the real reason for the transient overswing. Kneejerk reactions are mostly the result of trying to contain volatile missles like you.

How can you even possibly justify critising me for wanting to be compliant, safe and conservative.

Just what do you klnow about ash and engines. I suspect squat. But you will quite happily spread you particular brand of bollocks reagrdless.

I on the other hand admit to understanding very little, and therefore place my trust in those that do.

I am a pilot, not a geologist/meteorologist/mettalurgist.

Seeing as you have the answers to evrything why not stand for election.

[AnFI]

DB: "Blowhards like you [nigelh] are the real reason for the transient overswing. Kneejerk reactions are mostly the result of trying to contain volatile missles like you."

..... and Willie Walsh perhaps ??

[VeeAny]

I guess some evidence will now exist in the engines of the helicopters that have been operating at low levels VFR in the last few days around the UK and Northern europe.

I will be genuinely interested to see what if any damage has been done to those aircraft or their engines that becomes apparent in the weeks and months to come.

In the hypothetical situation of the operators who hire their aircraft in, if they continued to operate during the VA cloud hysteria and there was damage done, will they be paying for it or will they expect the owners to pay, I was asked to fly yesterday in London and whilst it never happened I would have done so only with the owner being appraised of the situation ?

The VA Cloud does seem to have pepped things up a bit for a few operators who have been running around the country and Northern Europe picking stranded people up.

The trade in illegal public transport clearly went up, with several of the usual culprits making some cash out of the situation.

[nigelh]

The more that these sort of things happen , the more we allow ourselves to be over regulated the more it plays into the hands of thr "grey" area charters / lease flights and also sadly the out and out illegal charters. They have business for only one good reason ....charter is now so over regulated and therefor over priced they have no alternative but to find a cheaper option . That is market forces and they will always win . Remember nobody would prefer to fly with some little tin pot illegal operator if they had the choice !!!! I have always said i believe that aoc charter on helis will slowly die over the next 10 years and it will be 90% lease/or just illegal . As it is i would say the figure is around 50%.
Good news that people are back in the air . Dont worry DB i am sure you will be fine :ok:

[Fly_For_Fun]

Is anyone aware of updated guidence from P and W / Turbomeca with regards to their engines and what restrictions, if any they still have in place?

[John R81]

Current forecast looks much better

http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/aviation/vaac/data/VAG_1271827786.png

John

[md 600 driver]

fly for fun
Is anyone aware of updated guidence from P and W / Turbomeca with regards to their engines and what restrictions, if any they still have in place?

presumably you still are advised not to fly with pbh untill turbomecca advises otherwise

did they made a mistake in advising ? is compensation payable ?

a new can of worms

[Special 25]

What is going on at Aberdeen. I keep seeing flights starting then stopping. Are engineers finding damage, crews finding ash, or is it just legal loopholes to be steered around?

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Special 25

At Aberdeen the 3 Operators are in constant contact with each other and the ATC.

I do not want to upset my bosses by explaining details but they are doing their best to provide a service whilst at the same time remaining in strict compliance with the Engine Manufacturer's guidlines and the notam VAACs information.

The start/stop you are witnessing is a direct result of the changing shape of the NOTAM and VAACS dispersion charts.

There is no option but to remain within the current guidelines.

Hope this helps

DB

[tvpilot]

BBC News - Offshore helicopters report volcano ash flight problems (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/north_east/8634712.stm)

Offshore helicopters report volcano ash flight problems


Helicopter flights over the North Sea were recalled after two aircraft reported being covered with volcanic ash.
The two Bond-operated aircraft were flying about 70 miles off Aberdeen.
The pilots reported ash on the windscreens after flying through a rain cloud on Tuesday night. There was no damage and no ash was found in engines.
The later decision to close airspace over parts of the North Sea led to the cancellation of helicopter flights.
Bond said it had cancelled all offshore flights, while Bristow cancelled all services from Scatsta in Shetland. CHC has also stopped some flights.
Hundreds of offshore workers were left stranded in the wake of the Iceland volcano ash flights disruption.

[handysnaks]

dark grey precipitation

Off the coast near Aberdeen! Now that is unusual! :p

[TRC]

"The pilots reported ash on the windscreens..."


Well, if the self-proclaimed 'experts' in the R & N ash thread are to be believed, it's probably the same 'pollen' that was all over my car.

According to a large number of amateur vulcanologists on PPRuNe, the ash doesn't exist.

[ShyTorque]

It exists, it was found on the windscreens. However, according to the same BBC report, no damage was caused to the aircraft or its powerplants.

The pilots made a sensible decision to return as they were faced with an unknown, possible hazard. With the benefit of hindsight and experience gained, hopefully they might be encouraged to fly again.

Bit like icing conditions.... if in doubt, pull out.

[heliski22]

Bit like icing conditions.... if in doubt, pull out.

Bit like the old catholic method of contraception, that? :E

[ShyTorque]

Come again?

[Fly_For_Fun]

Friend of mine in Aberdeen says he has been flying today. So all sorted then?

[finalchecksplease]

Sandyhelmet,

Was told to only "chem" wash the engines and not rinse them because if volcanic dust is present in the engine the water wash would turn it into "cement like" substance what would do more damage than good.

Finalchecksplease

[Palma]

So can we now do paragliding in Sweden??:)

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

IronChefflay.

Thanks for the info. Yeah I probably got a bit over enthusiastic with the 100 hours left. It feels so much better when I re-read and see that they may have had as little as 100 hours left.

DB

[Paul Fraser]

I've just been reading on the CAA website that:

“The major barrier to resuming flight has been understanding tolerance levels of aircraft to ash. Manufacturers have now agreed increased tolerance levels in low ash density areas.”

and

"The CAA’s Revised Airspace Guidance will be based on new engine ash tolerance levels and will apply to low ash density areas identified by the Met Office. This information will be circulated on a six hourly basis. Airspace where eash levels exceed this new limit will be no fly zones." (UK?S INDEPENDENT AVIATION REGULATOR ISSUES GUIDANCE TO OPEN AIRSPACE WITH SAFETY RESTRICTIONS | CAA Newsroom | CAA (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=14&pagetype=65&appid=7&newstype=n&mode=detail&nid=1862))

Has anyone been able to find charts of these areas issued by the Met Office? At the moment all I can find is the usual VAAC charts (http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/aviation/vaac/data/VAG_1271914184.png). Further, does anyone know which engine manufacturers have agreed ash tolerance levels or is it assumed to be all of them?

[skadi]

The UK Metoffice added forecast charts about the VA. Now the predicted ashconcentration is included:

Met Office: Icelandic volcano - Ash concentration charts (http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/corporate/pressoffice/2010/volcano/ashconcentration/)

skadi

[Sudden Stop]

^^^

You beat me to it Skadi.

It strange though, those charts were on the same webpage as the other vaac charts until a couple of days ago. And instead of the guff about 'engine manufacturer tolerance levels' (which engine/manufacturer?) the charts were described in terms of standard thresholds level (not that that actual give me a practical datum to understand the relevance!). Now the only place to see that chart is under the 'pressoffice' part of the site. Priorities seem to have changed and PR is now at the forefront.

[ShyTorque]

Now the authorities have admitted the safe levels of dust/ash in the air are 20 times what they previously thought only a few days ago, I hope some contributors feel 20 times safer when flying today. :p

As I said before, thirty years ago we were quite used to flying in thick (silica sand) dust all summer with no major effects on the aircraft or engines.

[Paul Fraser]

Thanks for that Skadi; I did search the site but I think the CAA referred to density rather than concentration so that is why I probably never found anything.
Finally found the CAA guidance: http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/srg_as_NOTAL201003.pdf More PR fluff than detail if you ask me.

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Just back on standby after a week off (which began by having to drive from Inverness to Devon on the Thursday this all started for the UK). Some interesting contributions - Shy, I dunno where you were among the silica sand 30 years ago but I know what it could do to 2 Arrius in the mid-oughties. The Kuwaiti police EC135s had the full sand filtration kit fitted, yet after only 1200-1300 hours of their 3000 TBO the engines had to be replaced as borescope inspections revealed Henry Moore-sculpture shapes where you'd normally expect to see straight lines on the blades. Nasty stuff, dust.

[John R81]

Eurocopter has now issued Safety Information Notice 2197-S-00 concerning flight in volcanic ash. Reproduced text:

Due to the eruption of the volcano in Iceland EUROCOPTER has been contacted by many operators asking for advice on how to proceed with their operation under these circumstances.

Flying in an atmosphere containing volcanic ash may affect the behaviour of the helicopter. Depending to the variety of the particles (size, weight, density, chemical composition…) it may increase the probability of a partial
power loss, engine flame out, navigation and piloting instruments failure or other helicopter malfunctions. Flight in such conditions may also decrease visibility and accelerate erosion of certain helicopter parts. In the past, on EC helicopters, engine flame outs have been experienced after flight through industrial smoke.

As a consequence EUROCOPTER advises operators to avoid flight in area of high density volcanic ash contamination (named zone 1 or black zone).

The flights done in potential contamination zone (area of low density volcanic ash contamination named zone 2 or red zone) have to be treated as flight in sandy or contaminated atmosphere. In this case the specific maintenance for flight in sandy or contaminated atmosphere has to be applied. The use of blades erosion protection kit is an option that remains at operator initiative. Engines in this environment must be operated and inspected in accordance with the applicable engine manufacturers instructions. Operators are requested to report to EC any unusual findings or unusual helicopter behaviour in operations.

Helicopters parked outside shall be protected by adequate covers to avoid accumulation and penetration of particles. Helicopters which have been exposed to volcanic ash shall be washed in accordance with general
procedures which are applied under conditions such as salt water or sand and dust environment.

EUROCOPTER stays at your disposal for further questions. Please refer to your normal contact person at EUROCOPTER’s technical support department

[Bertie Thruster]

From the 21st we have been following FODCOM 12/10

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/FOD201012.pdf

[Bertie Thruster]

Hard at work on the 18th, the 1st weekend of 'the volcano'.

It was strange to have such clear blue skies!


http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i97/nmhsu/april2010048.jpg?t=1272279536

[Chelm of Tryg 2]

Sometimes things are so stupid as to be almost unbelievable. Like the No Fly Zone around Inverness the other day, due to volcanic ash, centered on the airport with a 5 mile limit. How do they expect us to take them seriously?

[volrider]

How do they expect us to take them seriously

I guess when your engine stops you may become a believer :confused:

http://www.jma.go.jp/jma/jma-eng/jma-center/vaac/files/engin.jpg

[Nubian]

Volrider,

Pictures don't tell the whole story, so please if you could be so kind and fill in a few gaps.

What kind of a/c, where is it from and when is the picture taken?
And if you know, for how long has the engine been exposed to ash?

In your response to the previous poster, it should maybe be around Inverness the last few days, no?

[volrider]

Taken from a web search on "volcanic ash damage to aircraft engines"
Not related directly to Iceland however entirely relevent.
Page with picture on has following text....

Engine stall
Volcanic ash normally contains glassy materials, such as silicates, whose melting points are 600 degrees celsius to 800 degrees celsius. Since internal temperature of in-flight jet engine exceed 1000 degrees celsius, glassy particles in volcanic ash inhaled by the engines instantly melt. In the course of exhaust, the glassy materials are rapidly cooled down in the turbine chamber, stick on the turbine vanes, and disturb the flow of high-pressure combustion gases. This disorder of the flow may stop the entire engine in serious cases.


Windshield and aircraft body
Acicular solid particles in volcanic ash scratch the windshield of aircraft and lower the visiblity from the cockpit in serious cases. Ash particles also damage the paintwork of the aircraft body and corrode it.

Malfunctioning of speed meter
Volcanic ash could cause a clog-up in the pitot tube measuring air speed, and may have serious impacts on the aircraft operation.

Malfunctioning of electronic device
Volcanic ash clouds are often strongly charged, therefore may affect the wireless communication system's on the airplane.

Corrosion of the airplane body
Aerosols of hydrogen sulfide in volcanic ash cause corrosions on various components of the airplane.

[nigelh]

Volrider .....if you had read all the previous posts you would realise how utterly pointless your post is :ugh: We have established we are NOT talking about flying through thick plumes of dust ......we have established that for most of the time there is little or no ash in our crystal clear skies . I cannot see how it helps matters having you doom mongering . Its quite simple ...if you dont want to fly and think its un safe ...then dont :rolleyes: Old photos of damaged engines is just NOT relevent .

[volrider]

Bertie great picture, oh to fly in such pretty areas, beats the hell out of the "scenic" area called the 2nd city we are often trawling over....:}

http://bourgeoisinspirations.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/slum.jpg