Merged: Red bull air race crash?

[das Uber Soldat]

Just got a message from a mate saying one of the red bull air race aircraft just ended up in the Swan river. Nothing on the news yet?

Anyone able to verify/debunk?

[Diversion90]

I just heard the same thing too, I was planning on heading down to the river in about an hr and a half to watch them train. I hope this is not the case. Lets keep refreshin perth now and see.

[toolowtoofast]

Red Bull Air Race Crash | Plane crashes into Swan River (http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/red-bull-plane-crashes-into-river-20100415-sg9o.html)

[Atlas Shrugged]

It was only a matter of time before one of these blokes went in.

Did it stall? ;);)

[VH-XXX]

Did it stall?

You'd have to ask Planky for the answer to that one, he's the only one qualified to answer that question with limited information at hand.

[BBJ flying spanner]

just heard news flash plane landed inverted in the river. Latest report is the pilot injured but not life threatening. One very lucky boy:ok:

[Maxweight]

Heard that it was the Brazillian aircraft,not sure how he is but rescuers were quickly on the scene!
Max

[Jabawocky]

It was only a matter of time before one of these blokes went in.

That is quite true.......but given what it is they do, they have such a good record!

Hope he is not too badly hurt.:uhoh:

[Long Bay Mauler]

The pilot is in RPH with critical non life threatening injuries according to the news.

The crash was spectacular with lots of water spraying in the air as it flipped onto its back.

The police are currently towing the aircraft to the city side of the river.

[hillbillybob]

don't read the comments on the perth now website guys, you will get dumber the more you read.

bad news about the crash but glad to hear the pilot is relatively ok. good thing they did the escaping from submerged aircraft training yesterday i guess

[Keg]

Very unconfirmed report that the Ch 7 news chopper ignored ATC instructions and violated controlled airspace to get footage of the scene. This isn't from my usual WA ATC sources so isn't as reliable as I'd like.

If it's true, a big thumbs down to the pilots involved. :=

[havick]

Keg. I doubt the CH7 pilot would've intentionally busted CTA (in fact that is the case in this instance) just to get a shot. There's many of times you just tell the chief of staff in the studio bash it, needless to say you would give your best efforts to get what you could.

I don't know who flies/operates the CH7 machine in Perth, but I do operate the one in Adelaide on a daily basis, so I have a fair idea of what commercial pressures said pilot would've been under.

All media helicopter pilots that do it day in and day out, know it's counter-productive in the long term to try and get that one shot at all expenses, as you will find yourself with no help at all from ATC in the future.

[Masif Eego]

Hey Keg, of your 3025 posts this is up there as one of your best.........:ok:
Wake up............:=

[Skystar320]

confirming with KEG, also what we have been hearing on the ground at the Red Bull Air Race.

[glekichi]

Did it stall?

Irrelevant! He survived therefore he must have done a good job!! :}:}

[The Green Goblin]

Now we just need Dunza to fly the ATSB investigators over in one of his Caravans, Planky to take the lead role in the initial investigation and release the interim report along with roxy to explain the aerodynamics of an inverted glide and how weight would not affect it.

Glad to hear the fella survived. Even the best sometimes find themselves up the creek without a paddle.

Oh don't forget sunny blaming it on Qantas :ok:

Haven't missed anyone have I?

[kev_laline]

Pleased to hear the pilot is OK and that he didn't have a "normal" nosedive.:confused:

[Ultralights]

i think a few have gone in during red bull air race practice sessions, fortunately no fatalities.
I remember Peter Besenyei taking out a light pole in japan a few yrs ago.

a few good pics on the red bull site, a testament to the strength of those aircraft that they remain intact and are survivable even hitting the water at speed. (as opposed to a controlled ditching)

[rcoight]

Haven't missed anyone have I?


You forgot Wally saying it crashed 'cos it only has one engine...


:}

[VH-XXX]

I am yet to see a relevant TAF for this.

From the Herald Sun

http://resources1.news.com.au/images/2010/04/15/1225854/209453-adilson-kindlemann-red-bull-air-race-training-crash.jpg

From the AGE.

http://images.theage.com.au/2010/04/15/1328377/300_bullcrash-300x340.jpg

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

He survived therefore he must have done a good job!!

From pylon altitude, I don't think you would have time to do any kind of job. Hang on for the ride, maybe have time to say, "OH, SH..."

Luck may prove to be a bigger player than skill in this case.
Good to see he's survived, regardless.

[Another Number]

Did it stall?Yep ... there was definite wing drop (into the water).


BTW: I was filming up 'til moments before that, but popped inside at the wrong time!

(NB: From memory, in the last round some of the guys were complaining about the too-low-flying rule... the officials now have some ammo)

[Ultralights]

http://images.scribblelive.com/2010/4/15/54d03f07-ae61-4578-8ad0-0571c95381d2_400.jpg

http://images.scribblelive.com/2010/4/15/3f448ce9-d717-43c4-a352-33bac3f05f36_400.jpg

http://images.scribblelive.com/2010/4/15/a9bf0022-b063-446b-bd18-cda7bb4a7c12_400.jpg

http://images.scribblelive.com/2010/4/15/0f964e81-c08f-4ca0-acbe-02ac7585852d_400.jpg

[Wally Mk2]

....................hey 'rc' don't bring me in on this, 2 is always better than 1 of course but even with 4 engines you can crash at that almost crazy low alt!:-)
One witness said on the news 2nite that he saw the plane go beyond the vertical in a turn at very low Alt, if so then any up elevator would plant the guy straight into H20 in a blink, probably just what happened:) Now had that have been an Airbus he'd be lucky to get past 67 deg's:E then again 'Sully' is the only one to have done likewise & lived!:)
Great shots there 'Ultra' :ok:
The TAF would have read, standing water:)


Wmk2

[braddles]

A close shave for the Brazilian ;)

Sorry, couldn't help myself. Good to hear Adilson is in a reasonable condition. Hopefully this wont bring out the 'ban it' mentality from those who know nothing about the sport :rolleyes:

[beer bong]

The next Sully

[PA39]

:ouch: Perhaps a new manouvre .......a fully executed Brazilian "Swan" dive !!!!

[braddles]

YouTube - Adilson Kindleman crash-landing in the Swan River - Red Bull Air Race Perth 2010 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGIydKxEoUo)

Link to the video



GGIydKxEoUo

[braddles]

Footage has been uploaded to youtube. I can't add a link for some reason...

[Bandit11]

It looks like the low wing G-stalled.

[HarleyD]

GG and XXX, oh you Guys,,,, HA HA HA well done. no one seriously hurt and a light hearted attitude to this event makes this thread fun.

WMk2, you are way, way out of planky's league for inane statements though your aversion to SEA is well documented. Also you can take a joke (like this one), another failing of planky's. It is almost peaceful without him, maybe remoak can move into this vacancy with his expert analysis.

You are correct that the input that a normal pilot may apply (pull back to make the houses get smaller) would pitch him 'down' if he was beyond 90 aob, but to these guys that is an ulikely mistake to make as they are well familiar with what most would consider 'unusual' corrective inputs to recover from such attitudes. Pushing would be instinctive to him in these circumstances. Having said that, we are all infallible and even I have demonstrated a similar landing techique to this although at least I was over dry land at the time, of course it wouldn't have burnt so much if I had done it into a river.

Maybe he forgot he was in a land plane and was trying to land on the river? (Upside down or wingtip first shows an even lesser understanding of the correct method, even for water)

At least he is OK and has prolly chatted up a few nursies by now I would think, those latinos don't waste much time.

Don't need a TAF to see that the RH was 100%

HD


edit
WOW, just watched that vid and take it back about the USD bit, he looks wings level RSU at impact. he seemed to demonstrate the effects of an inappropriate energy vector at work. Every replay accompanied by 'oooh sheet!' till i turned the vol down

[toolowtoofast]

You're a brave man suggesting any cause at this early stage - could have been anything - control failure, a stall, an engine problem, a health problem - I actually thought the rpm surge at the start of the run sounded a little odd.

[Winch-control]

He appears to roll left, level wings and ditch, pressumably to avoid the school if he'd remained on his previous heading?!:D

[VH-XXX]

You'd have to see other aircraft at the same location to confirm if the rpm surge is common for that part of the course, seems out place however it was practice after all. Pretty lucky he didn't dip a wing in first in the wet stuff as things would have been different for sure.

The news just showed footage from the tail camera - impressive. You'd almost describe the initial impact as "graceful."

[Ultralights]

cant believe no one has mentioned the words wet and Brazilian in the same sentence yet. :}

[Diversion90]

Does anybody know what frequencies the race tower uses? I'd like to listen in whilst im down there tomorrow.

[hardNfast]

The news just showed footage from the tail camera - impressive. You'd almost describe the initial impact as "graceful."

Anyone got a youtube link or something? Just did a search and came up with nothing,

[Diversion90]

HardnFast YouTube - Adilson Kindleman crash-landing in the Swan River - Red Bull Air Race Perth 2010 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGIydKxEoUo)

braddles provided this further up the page.

[Ultralights]

according to comments by the poster of the video, after the engine had the overrev, it cut out, if the engine failed, then he would have lost an immense amount of energy in the high G turn, and only had enough energy left to roll level and ditch. or the overspeed could have been a CSU governor failing?

[Wally Mk2]

'HD" I can handle a joke buddy:ok:

Now 'HD' from the Vid it does show Mr 'Braz' did momentarily go beyond the vertical on that last L/H turn but quickly corrected his boo boo (sharp reflexes for sure) bringing the plane to the vertical & perhaps a point where it no longer flew in a controlled state having rapidly bled off speed. I've been flying toy planes for more years than I care to remember & flown such stunts as this & lost a few toy planes as well (mainly due dumb thumbs!) . Once in a knife edge state with the wings no longer providing the impetus for lift some top rudder is needed to bring the fuse into a positive AofA to help reduce Mr gravity from winning so to me ( & this is an OPINION GUYS) it looks at though he has lost a lot of energy during those rapid 90deg turns & ended up with little energy left after that last rapid save from beyond the vertical. Notice the somewhat alarming nose down state during the beyond vertical maneuver? The flight trajectory was already pointing down & at the low Alt this guy was good to get it right way up prior to impact anyway! Another thought & again another OPINION perhaps he flew thru his own 'jet wash'. ( I should use the words disturbed air)& lost balanced lift?? There definitely was some loss of lift there in that tail vid accompanied by a loss of lateral control of some sort. I know that the Cap 21 in model form was a pig if pushed hard thru a vertical turn with lots of G's the outer wing (one skyward) would stall & the lower wing would still be flying & bingo the toy plane would go skyward with a flip off the top. Obviously not the case here as skyward to Mr 'Braz' was more 'waterward':}
And of course it could be a simple matter of the 'noise' stopped & he had little choice but to 'Sullyize' the plane!:)
Anyway he's alive that's the main thing. Perhaps something can be learnt from this stunt.

And no it's not speculation it's just an OPINION we can all have one:ok:

Wmk2

[Aerodynamisist]

Spoiler walk down-like problem on those massive ailerons perhaps, appears on the video to loose that last 20 feet in the roll after the initial problem of descending through the knife edge. Hope the wowsers don't get on there high horse here.

Like Hemingway said motor racing, bull fights and mountain climbing are the the only true sports anything else is just kids games played by adults.

[AussieNick]

ABC news is running the footage from the tail camera

Red Bull loses wings - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/video/2010/04/15/2874174.htm)

[das Uber Soldat]

The tail footage is certainly the most interesting. Carefully watching the ailerons I see no input when the aircraft suddenly rolled from maybe 80 deg bank to in excess of 90. There is large shudder at the instant it rolls left.

To my eyes, he then inputs right aileron, however nothing happens until eventually it rolls flat at the point of impact?

Stall or structural?

[muffman]

Watching that tail cam video you can see the wings flexing normally with the loading through the first couple of manoeuvres but there is an oscillatory buffeting type of flexing throughout the last one.

I don't know anything about the aeroplane type but in the types I've flown that would tend to indicate stalled or very close to stalled regime?

[Keg]

masif, my information is that TVG became airborne within the Perth CTR without a clearance and subsequently entered R910 (RBAR restricted zone) also without a clearance.

I now have that from three sources. Do you have information to the contrary?

[Spitfire boy]

Watching earlier practice noticeable that the aircraft banned from using a temporary landing strip at Langley Park by the Swan River due wind conditions

Red Bull Air Race Plane Crashes Into Swan River (http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/red-bull-plane-crashes-into-river-20100415-sg9o.html)

"Red Bull Air Race pilot Adilson Kindlemann has thanked his rescuers after crashing his plane into the Swan River. The 36-year-old Brazilian pilot was plucked from the river by emergency rescue crews and taken to Royal Perth Hospital, where he'll remain overnight in a stable condition after miraculously suffering only whiplash."

[Peter Fanelli]

OK, what role did QANTAS play in this accident?
The public has a right to know!

[captplaystation]

After watching the video , can only say , "lucky lad".

[Ultralights]

Footage from tail camera!

Red Bull loses wings - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/video/2010/04/15/2874174.htm)
very lucky chap indeed, especially if only suffering whiplash injuries!

[training wheels]

This has to be greater than 90 degrees AoB to the left .. probably about 110 degrees?

http://i42.tinypic.com/15zkphk.jpg


Rolling out .. seems to have quite a high nose attitude after the rollout.

http://i43.tinypic.com/300wi1x.jpg


Don't want to speculate whether it stalled or not; I'll leave that to planky. :E

http://i43.tinypic.com/ju9wyc.jpg

Vidcaps from Red Bull loses wings - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/video/2010/04/15/2874174.htm)

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Here we go again!

Geez, can't you guys EVER wait for the ATSB report?

Have some respect! :E

Dr :8

[CDRW]

Well, at first, when I heard about it, I thought it was some sort of engine failure or fuel problem - but this looks alot more serious. Think he must be go off an buy a lottery ticket.

[Capn Bloggs]

It looks to me like the left aileron is full down for a very long time with no response. Only at the last nano-second does the right aileron come full-up and the aircraft then rolls wings level before hitting the water.

Odd.

[BOAC]

OK - I know I'm getting old, but I've watched the vid several times and CANNOT see any sign of 'a wing coming off' or him 'losing wings'??:confused: I can see him making like an amphib (or, 'jus doin' a Sully':))! What am I missing?

[j3pipercub]

And you know what TW, planky is back! Wierd coincidence...

[VH-XXX]

I'm thinking those things are quite powerful and can easily do a prolonged knife-edge so you'd think he could hit the go juice and fly out of almost anything however there wasn't many rpm up front at the very end by the sound of it.

[18-Wheeler]

Looks to me (from those poor videos) like it was a high-speed stall that transitioned into a low-speed stall. Just a guess .....

[Capt Pit Bull]

CANNOT see any sign of 'a wing coming off' or him 'losing wings'??

Guessing that's supposed to be a play on words? Versus the advertising slogan "redbull gives you wings!"

[BOAC]

See! Told you I was getting old........:)

[YoDawg]

Having looked at the slow-mo footage from the tail-mounted camera, you can see the buffet during the left turn as he 'G'-stalls it.

Case closed! :ok:

If he'd suffered an engine malfunction prior to entering the chicane, I highly doubt he'd then have the balls to perform three steep turns when he could trade speed for height and look for someplace handy to put it down at his leisure - like an orphanage. Or an old folks' home.

[training wheels]

And you know what TW, planky is back! Wierd coincidence...

Yeah, he's back to do the analysis for us since ATSB won't be investigating this one. :E

[BGRing]

OK So there is Supposedly no such thing as a tip stall. So let me just reword that to One wing dropped and the other popped.

Left wing dropped due to over reaching the Clmax AoA with Aileron down. and the other wing would have more lift than that wing for the brief moment.

It baffles me as to why it did regain lift and not continue to roll over.
looks very similar to the SU27 flight in the Ukraine.
"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9dwSRHaN98&feature=related"
look at the 35-36 second mark of that one.

I would like to get a raw vid of the Brazilian Swan dive so I/we could pause and frame advance. especially the one mounted on the rudder.

[Capt Fathom]

It crashed.....!

[BGRing]

YouTube - Red Bull Air Race Plane Crash In Perth Pilot Adilson Kindlemann OK www.AirCrashObserver.com (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWcvmOD1BsA)

second guessing myself. Not a Stall.

He did it.

He inputted more left roll aileron to get back to 90 Aob and went beyond 90. doing so would be a good choice to regain low level but it seems to have been for to long.

Not a stall.:ouch:

Im now going to go back to stelth mode. and keep my mouth shut :oh:

[Skystar320]

http://www.walrusmagazine.com/blogs/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/armchair.jpg

[Atlas Shrugged]

Now we just need Dunza to fly the ATSB investigators over in one of his Caravans, Planky to take the lead role in the initial investigation and release the interim report along with roxy to explain the aerodynamics of an inverted glide and how weight would not affect it.

Glad to hear the fella survived. Even the best sometimes find themselves up the creek without a paddle.

Oh don't forget sunny blaming it on Qantas

Haven't missed anyone have I?

Yep! There is sure to be some turkey who can't use the search button starting a thread called "What is the Best Aerobatic School in Perth, preferably close to the Swan River" ;)

[mickjoebill]

Hope the bloke on the ladder in picture 18 had a lucky escape too....http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif


Red Bull Air Race plane crashes (http://www.theage.com.au/photogallery/wa-news/red-bull-air-race-plane-crashes/20100415-sgcn.html)


Mickjoebill

[j3pipercub]

Yeah Atlas,

We now need OZBUSDRIVER to post a pic of Google Earth and tell us all what he would have done...

j3

[TexanPilot]

when you can quite clearly see the engine working!
:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh: :ugh::ugh:

[PLovett]

and look for someplace handy to put it down at his leisure - like an orphanage. Or an old folks' home.

..........or the Brooker Highway. :}

[cirrus driver]

Perth local paper confirms the pilot was a BRAZILIAN and that he had a CLOSE SHAVE !!!!!:

[das Uber Soldat]

didnt someone make that joke already like 3 pages ago? :}

[Flying Binghi]

We now need OZBUSDRIVER to post a pic of Google Earth and tell us all what he would have done...


OZBUSDRIVER would say that if an ADS-B unit were installed then the pilot would not of pranged..... :}




.

[VH-XXX]

The sooner CASA mandate ground proximity warning devices for non-rpt aircraft below 5700kg's this crap won't keep happining.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

I am just slain by the wit exhibited on this thread....at least Brazilian and Wet in the same sentence had promise.:}

[apollo85]

The reason ATSB aren't investigating is because they can just find out what happened on good ol' PPRUNE! There is NO money to be made in GA, maybe you could all earn the big $$ being consultants for ATSB :}

Just the way media reporters scout this page aafter an accident, as do ATSB investigators!!

[brns2]

Slightly off topic, but does anyone know if the FA18 is doing a display this weekend? and which day?

Cant seem to find anything on the program

[remoak]

Why? Are you expecting it to ditch...? :}