YSBK First solo flight ends in crash landing

[Matt-YSBK]

First solo flight ends in crash landing
From First solo flight ends in crash landing (http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/first-solo-flight-ends-in-crash-landing-20100412-s22f.html)



April 12, 2010 - 11:22AM

A pilot's first solo flight has ended with a crash landing at Sydney's Bankstown Airport.

The solo pilot was not hurt in the incident about 9.30am (AEST) today, a spokeswoman from the Sydney Metro Airport Bankstown said.

"A single engine aircraft has made a heavy landing this morning," she said, and the emergency service plan had been activated.

The pilot's instructor was supervising nearby and when the plane came down heavily he rushed over to the aircraft, leading to incorrect media reports that there were two people on board.

The airport spokeswoman could not say if the pilot was male or female.

A minor fuel leak was being cleaned up by fire brigade officers, she said.

One of the three runways at the airport remains closed.

AAP

[Aeroo]

The airport spokeswoman could not say if the pilot was male or female.

Does it matter? The important thing is they're ok (though probably in need of a clean pair of undies)! :)

[JMEN]

And more importantly get back on that horse!

[smiling monkey]

The airport spokeswoman could not say if the pilot was male or female.

Does it matter?

Such info is required so that the appropriate change of underwear can be brought to the crash scene. ;)

[Jabawocky]

bugger..........beaten to the punch line. :D

We all remember our first solo with some level of satisfaction, this poor sod will remember it for all the wrong reasons. I just hope they get back on the horse and ride it, and learn.

J

[Peter Fanelli]

Isn't someone going to publish the last half dozen TAFs for us?

[VH-XXX]

Someone made a good post on this a while back, I'll have to find it.

Something along the lines:

- Post a picture of the aircraft from airliners.net saying how it looks fine in the picture

- Provide the last dozen weather reports for the area, METAR, TAF, etc

- Comment on how the pilot must have felt and what you would have different if it happened to you

- Comment with your condolences even though you neither know the pilot or are even involved in the industry

- Tell everyone how you "eagerly" await the results from the ATSB

- Post references to as many "similar" incidents that you can find for that aircraft type and for that airfield and draw as many meaningless conclusions that you can between the two

[The Green Goblin]

Or comment on how the aeroplane stalled, the Pilot is dangerous and what cowboys we all are.

Miss ya work Planky :cool:

[GADRIVR]

Of course we COULD kick off with theory that it was an unintentional CFIT..... in this case it could have some merit!!!
Back into the saddle mate!

[Annihilannic]

Look's like that's the tail of VH-HCE I can see there.

Pilot makes hard landing at Bankstown Airport - Local News - News | Canterbury-Bankstown Express (http://express.whereilive.com.au/news/story/pilot-makes-hard-landing-at-bankstown-airport/)

[Josh Cox]

There you go Peter:

METAR: DGAA 120400Z 28006KT 9999 SCT010 28/25 Q1008 NOSIG
short-TAF: out of date (68 hours)
long-TAF: DGAA 120330Z 1206/1312 29003KT 9999 SCT010 BKN100 BECMG 1208/1210 23010G20KT SCT013 SCT120 BKN250 TEMPO 1216/1218 TS FEW030CB BECMG 1220/1222 27005KT BKN010 TEMPO 1304/1306 00000KT 5000 BR SCT009 BKN090

[j3pipercub]

Gold GG!

Of course we have OZBUSDRIVER to now replace the Plankmeister...

C'mon OZ, show us a google earth photo...

j3

[OZBUSDRIVER]

nahhh, not worth touching...not an airfarce trainee:}

[NAMPS]

"unintentional CFIT" - hmmmm I think more of a UFIT.

[Tidbinbilla]

Something along the lines:

- Post a picture of the aircraft from airliners.net saying how it looks fine in the picture

- Provide the last dozen weather reports for the area, METAR, TAF, etc

- Comment on how the pilot must have felt and what you would have different if it happened to you

- Comment with your condolences even though you neither know the pilot or are even involved in the industry

- Tell everyone how you "eagerly" await the results from the ATSB

- Post references to as many "similar" incidents that you can find for that aircraft type and for that airfield and draw as many meaningless conclusions that you can between the two

Well, who just pulled a rabbit out of a hat?

Well done, that man! you should be a moderator!

I Remember when HCE almost had it's tail completely severed. THAT was a few years ago :}

TID

[chookboy]

does anyone know the flying school

[ozbiggles]

I don't see anything wrong with the first two, unless actual facts are not allowed here?
As long as its one of each.

[brywithawhy]

Hi all,

I provide a feed to LiveATC.net for bankstown tower 132.80. If the circuit training frequency was patched together the audio should be archived on the LiveATC website.

I'm looking for it now. But if anyone else wants to help - feel free. Then cross check the rego to see which school

[glekichi]

But in this case there isn't (yet?) video footage of an aircraft stalling it on! :}

[remoak]

No, we must wait for the report... only an accident investigator could possibly understand how such an accident could occur. None of you have the years of training required to analyse the causes of this tragedy, so no further comment is allowed.

Oh, and no condolences!:=

:ok:

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

does anyone know the flying school

Probably, but no-one wants to see the info presented so some jorno can "get the information from a "reliable" (HA!) source".

[chookboy]

i can understand that but if anyone could let me know by msg a school or tail number i just want to know if it was my school

[VH-XXX]

Tail number????

Real pilots don't call it that.

Which paper are you from?

[chookboy]

sorry only done 6 hours into my gfpt with basair thats why i want to find out if it was my school if it is im going somewhere else

[Scorpion83]

Well you could work through process of elimination... who at YSBK still run C152s?

[chookboy]

well my school has a heap of them, thats why i think its them, plus with the training i have so far i get the impression they might send you up even when your not ready

[j3pipercub]

Here fishy fishy fish...

[PA39]

:ouch: I may be opening up a can of worms here....but care factor -10. I have sent thousands solo over the many years and never had a single mishap. Not luck....luck has nothing to do with it, it is good solid training, which covered every possible scenario. A lot of our training went far beyond the day VFR syllabus and we were often ostracised (sic) by the regulator for "overtraining" but we never lost an aircraft or pilot. Hours to solo were never a consideration, it was on ability, skill and absorbtion of knowledge. When the candidate was ready for solo.....he or she knew it in themselves. When you've tried every emergency, bounce, porpoise, go around, engine failure in every part of the circuit ... and you're just sitting there observing the student correct every mishap and fly copybook c/l time after time.....its time to hop out and give him/her their one lap on their own. I put the incident in this thread down to poor instruction.
Old fashioned....you betcha but I'm still alive (13500hrs) and so is every single one of my students. OFF THE SOAPBOX.

[Scorpion83]

Hey Chookboy, check your PM.

I don't think anyone should be going solo without at least 10 hours, its one thing to spend time to show a student how to do it, its another for the student to spend time and being able to safely land a plane.

[PPRuNeUser0163]

Someone correct me if im wrong and if i am i do apologize but when i phoned atis at around 11-midday it was indicating a swinging wind at 10 gusting 20 knots.. Surely not conducive to a first solo even if mostly down the runway? bit to handle for a first solo student from my flight training experience from a few years back anyways.

[brywithawhy]

I did my first solo at 8 hours and never had a mishap.

Anyway I've looked through the archives at liveATC and couldn't hear anything. let us know if anyone else has success

Edit: I did however have a dedicated and experienced instructor who knew his ****. I've been through a few of the late flying schools and notice that the majority of the instructors are only there because they want to get hours up not because they want to teach. I think that's the problem going on.

[A37575]

Hours to solo were never a consideration,

Good job you weren't instructing in the RAAF in my time. You would soon be up in front of the Commanding Officer explaining why you didn't have the confidence or ability to send a student on the first solo within 12 hours max.

Of course if the student was hopeless that is another story and in that case the scrub test would sort him out one way or another. But by hanging on to the student so he can be taught all sorts of nice to know things rather than need to know before things before first solo, is being unfair to your student and an unnecessary financial burden to him. It is command time that will build his confidence - not hours and hours of dual.

There are operators (instructors) in flying schools that think the more dual a student has the better he will be. For that reason they deliberately delay a students first solo for 15-30 hours or more because of perceived "safety".

In reality it is a blatant rip-off. There are new grade 3 instructors who either do not have the confidence to put their student for a CFI check for first solo or worse still want to squeeze a few more bucks out of the student dual and hang on to the poor bastard for as long as possible.

[apollo85]

This Poor bugger! I really do feel bad - and i hope he does jump back on the horse -

On another note why are we all feeling so bad???? - HASNT THIS KID JUST SATISFIED THE DIRECT ENTRY REQUIRMENT FOR QANTAS??? :}

[PA39]

A37575

:mad: Yes it is a good thing I wasn't instructing in the RAAF in your time. All my instructional hours were done in the real world not sheltered workshops. The first moron that bashed me on the back of my helmet to advise that i was scrubbed would've ended up with two black eyes. There are times when you must be upfront and explain to the student that perhaps flying an aircraft is not for him/her and they are wasting their money. You can always tell the ex RAAF boffins who were used to flying state of the art machinery, all at tax payers expense, in contrast to struggle street in GA. Robots v People. It was not a matter of hanging the student up there to make an extra buck, at times I GAVE hours to them to overcome handling difficulties....at my expense, not taxpayers!! There was never a grey area with the RAAF, like all boffins it was black or white........no flexibility. The ex RAAF self confessed top gun FOI who insists you go to the minimums and not hold 50' above for "turbulence", and then pulls an engine so you dip below the minimum for a split second and fails you. However when you ask him to do the same excercise to see how he would go, but he knows whats going to happen, states " Oh I couldn't do it either" don't worry you'll get it next time. All ther time flying a fuel guzzling twin which costs you your weekly hard earned wage to hire. I have no time for some ex RAAF cowboys who place themselves on a pedestal, who would not and have not survived in the REAL world.

[j3pipercub]

A37575,

There are also ex RAAF pilots who are HUGE TOOLS. They prance about thinking that civvie street should be just like the RAAF and that they are Gods gift to aviation.

Now that I've generalised just like you...care to edit or retract some of that post.

j3

PS. Legendary PA39

[PA39]

:) J3....Good for you mate.
Regards
PA39

[remoak]

Hmmm funny that, the same species of tool also infest the RAF and the RNZAF... normally identified by their propensity for wearing their forces-issue leather flying gloves everywhere. Clowns...

[AirSic]

I remember a TOOL of the highest order, an ex RAAF scrubbed at 1FTS that would fly an Auster with his bone dome and leather gloves whilst towing gliders for the local cadets....

He would strut around in his flying suit and mirror glasses pontificating his greatness to one and all.

I feel the need......

the need to throw up!

or to quote from the movie Red Dawn...

I'm an Auster driver!

[RENURPP]

Good job you weren't instructing in the RAAF in my time. You would soon be up in front of the Commanding Officer explaining why you didn't have the confidence or ability to send a student on the first solo within 12 hours max.

Of course if the student was hopeless that is another story and in that case the scrub test would sort him out one way or another. But by hanging on to the student so he can be taught all sorts of nice to know things rather than need to know before things before first solo, is being unfair to your student and an unnecessary financial burden to him. It is command time that will build his confidence - not hours and hours of dual.


There are operators (instructors) in flying schools that think the more dual a student has the better he will be. For that reason they deliberately delay a students first solo for 15-30 hours or more because of perceived "safety".

In reality it is a blatant rip-off. There are new grade 3 instructors who either do not have the confidence to put their student for a CFI check for first solo or worse still want to squeeze a few more bucks out of the student dual and hang on to the poor bastard for as long as possible.absolute garbage!

E actly the reason ex or current RAAF shouldn't be involved in civil aviation.

Firstly, the average civil flying school doesn't have the option of chosing only 17yr old pimply faced kids that have gone through days of aptitude tests.
The average flying school cannot(if they want to stay in business) show students the door if they don't come up to standard in set minimum times.

Flying schools would not survive if their safety record was that of the RAAF.

Flying schools do not have their own 10,000ft runways with no or little traffic. They have little in the way of distractions whilst doing their early training, and thats after hours of briefings.

It would be easy to go on and on about the differences but I know it will fall on deaf ears when it comes to our ex mitary friends.

[psycho joe]

There are operators (instructors) in flying schools that think the more dual a student has the better he will be. For that reason they deliberately delay a students first solo for 15-30 hours or more because of perceived "safety".

In reality it is a blatant rip-off. There are new grade 3 instructors who either do not have the confidence to put their student for a CFI check for first solo or worse still want to squeeze a few more bucks out of the student dual and hang on to the poor bastard for as long as possible.


Well said,

Unfortunatly I was one of these kids back when I first started. I was one of the lucky ones that realised I was perpetually funding greedy old bastard owner/CFI's retirement and left for a better school. Others didn't and their careers were destroyed before they started. :mad:

[PA39]

It happens in every industry. Thats why you must do due diligence before you sign up to a school. Ask everyone including previous students, thank goodness for the invent of forums such a this. Do your homework thoroughly before parting with your money. I knew of one old coot years ago that used to have his students refill the training aircraft (PA38) with .....MOGAS out of an unfiltered drum! These guys are never successful no matter how long they operate for.

[eocvictim]

Remember the old rule for sending a student solo. If you wouldn't put your mother in the plane with them, they're not ready. Granted I only instructed for a couple of years and only started 30ish students but still yet to meet anyone who reaches the standard within 10 hours.

This is not WWII and its not the 1950s. This is the age of laws and litigation. As an instructor you need to be confident that if the :mad: does hit the fan you can stand in front of the coroner, the family of the dead student and say unequivocally that to you had done everything to assure they were to standard. At best stand in front of your CFI and explain why there is a bent plane sitting at the end of the runway.

Personally I want a long and prosperous career in aviation and didn't want to give it away so some kid could toss on to his friends that he went solo in 6 hours. Realistically what is an extra 4-5 hours in 150/200 anyway, who cares if it takes another couple of laps?

[glekichi]

Ive heard of that old rule eoc but truth be known there are a lot of CPL holders I wouldnt send my family with. :eek:
As you said though, one needs to be confident that they could justify that everything had been done to standard, and possibly in a court of law.
More importantly though, as my old CFI used to say, be sure that you would be able to sleep at night if something were to happen. If you are blaming yourself then you aren't likely to be able to convince others not to blame you.

[apollo85]

Well said Eco!!!
That is exactly how it is!
My father told me - if you were happy to send your family up there with them while they did there solo..then they are ready!
Sitting on the "scare chair" as instructors call it - means sitting on the chair, fingers crossed, coz your licence is up there with them. Coronors court was always at the back of my mind!

[remoak]

I wouldn't send my family up with any of the students I have soloed... they know JUST enough to get around the circuit safely... if anything were to go wrong, they might make it, but given the level of nervousness most first solos feel, the chances of panic or a skill deficit are high...

I also wouldn't send my family up with a lot of CPLs, but that's another story...

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

...actually it's a bit more objective than that.
They have to reach the required comeptencies in the syllabus and that takes as long as it takes, so rather than using the old "would you send your family" etc you actaully have a measurable bit of evidence that they are ready.

I also got taken to task by CASA for not sending them as soon as they were competent and moving on to other bits of the syllabus instead. I had to explain that the delay was actually in waiting for the wheels in Canberra to grind around and produce the student licence, ASIC and medical...things that used to be done by the CFI and the DAME and took minutes rather than months...

[404 Titan]

I haven’t instructed for 15 years but it was pretty much as remoak and CFI have said. Items in the syllabus had to have been covered and their circuits were at a level of consistency that was predictable and safe. Would I put family in the aircraft with them? No, but I was confident that they weren’t going to hurt themselves, the aircraft or anyone else using the airspace with them. I had a number of students that went solo in under 10 hours and one that went solo in 8. Having said that I had one that eventually went solo in 30 hours and before the Nazis get on here and tell me I was ripping him off I sat down with the gentleman at 15, 20 and 25 hours and explained to him he was above the average and asking him if he wanted to continue. I have never seen someone so over the moon the day I eventually sent him solo.

[mattyj]

The 'ol tomahawk I soloed in soldiered on for another year or so before someone finally found the cracks in the spar and grounded it :\

[scavenger]

Not luck....luck has nothing to do with it, it is good solid training, which covered every possible scenario

:D

When you've tried every emergency...

:D:D

I have sent thousands solo...

:D:D:D

[Stikybeke]

I overhead someone talking today that apparently knew someone that actually saw this happen (from where I didn't hear...) ...apparently at the time, wind was 18 to 20kts from 260 with a X of 10Kts, Rwy was 29L.....Also (apparently) both occupants walked with no injuries, a bit of fuel spill that closed YSBK for a while and not too much damage to the A/C.....thank goodness for all that...could've been a hell of alot worse...

It could be all wrong of course, it's just what I heard....after all, this is a rumour based website...

Stiky
:suspect:

[remoak]

No... we MUST NOT speculate. Only an accident investigator can figure it out... :=:}

[Hasherucf]

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/7048/getattachmentaspxke.jpg

[Ultralights]

well that explains the fuel spill.

[Stikybeke]

"we MUST NOT speculate."

Fair call Remoak.......

(Apparent) Speculation ammended.....

Stiky
:suspect:

[PA39]

Looks like a bounce/porpoise that has not been corrected early. Goes back to training. IF it is true, re the w/v the instructor has something to answer for.

[remoak]

Stikybeke

I was being ironical... for all the anal individuals who think you need a Cray supercomputer to work out 2+2... speculate away... :ok:

[Atlas Shrugged]

Looks like a bounce/porpoise that has not been corrected early.

Could have been a stall, judging by the wing drop! ;);)

[psycho joe]

Looks to me like he came in a bit steep and forgot to flare. :E

[Stikybeke]

No probs Remoak....

Actually you were quite right...sometimes I need a reality check to bring me back into line...My fingers shouldn't go where my brain hasn't been..(is that the saying?)....from the looks of that picture though perhaps there might have been some merit in that conversation....and while I'm on a roll here....'YSBK First solo ? flight ends in crash landing.." I'm sure that bloke said they both walked away......

Regardless, at least he/she/solo/flight under instruction/ whatever....is/are OK....that's the main thing..

Enjoy,
Stiky
:ok:

[remoak]

... and you can be pretty sure that they won't do it again!

Does look like a classic porpoise/nose gear collapse though... not that it takes much to bend the nose gear in a 152. Damage looks pretty minor.

Isn't that what they call a "leaning jowler"? (let's see who gets that reference...!):)

[Josh Cox]

Remoak,

You're not speculating again are you ?.

Pass the pigs ?.

[remoak]

Yeah I did a bit didn't I... will go and flagellate myself immediately... :{

Pass the pigs... very good!

[Eastern2217]

Easy candidate for the Texas tailwheel conversion :-)

[Hasherucf]

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/2011/getattachmentaspxyl.jpg

speculate away ....

[Stikybeke]

Marks left by the painters vehicle after he drove over the new white centre lines he painted near the threshold of 29L 4 weeks ago?

Stiky
:}