8 DEC's interviewed at EK last week

[hotcurry]

As the title says.

I guess it’s all down to the bottom dollar...

Keep the FO in the seat (motivated) for a further only 5 years and issue him/her with a dummy at sign on , just to help look after the boss for the next 3 days or so.

Don't get me wrong about the whole DEC thing. I'd one day hopefully be in the same position to apply for a DEC job but hey who we kidding here. Some guys (DEC's) are seriously lacking in many departments when it comes to long haul wide body ops, but considering that the previous job didn't develop that side of their career, they are not to be blamed but management possibly is.

Better get a new set of stripes as these suckers are getting pretty dull and I see myself wearing them for some time to come.

Off to the uniform store then.

[cerbus]

DECs should never be an option and especially now at Emirates. How much longer are the good FOs going have to wait to get their commands and how much babysitting is going to be going on in the cockpits?
Any pilot applying to EK should be fully aware of how the mangement treats its pilots. This is just the most recent example.

[GoreTex]

who believed that EK would not hire DEC's anymore?
if you expect the worst in EK you are still an optimist because it will be worse than you expected.

[Firestorm]

It happens in lots of airlines. I've lost count of the number of DECs I've had to baby sit in a low cost airline. I asked the Chief Pilot if he'd made me into a training FO once, and if was supposed to get a pay rise. At least he didn't flannel, and treated my tongue in cheek enquiry to the answer it deserved! I wouldn't expect the same at Emirates.

[mensaboy]

Yes it happens at some airlines but there is no other airline with so many qualified and capable F/O's who are being bypassed. From an experience and suitability standpoint, there never has been a need for DEC's at Emirates..... the policy is simply a cost savings measure! Nowadays though, I concede that since fewer suitable F/O's are opting for EK and we are so far behind the power curve when it comes to crewing the aircraft, DEC's are becoming the only option.

Many of us have been predicting a reinstatement of hiring a large amount of DECs and yes, every single pilot considering this airline should have considered this fact but all of us, even those not affected by this policy should be compassionate towards those affected. This is a very sad turn of events for the F/O's already here and those about to join. I have stated on many occasions to prospective pilots coming to EK, ''watch out for a massive increase in DECs and when it happens, don't come crying to the rest of us.'' But now that it appears to be happening again, I can't help but sympathize with my colleagues, regardless of how much denial they were experiencing when they signed on the dotted line.

The DEC policy at EK has always been a bad option simply because we have always had an abundance of suitable F/O's ready to upgrade. It blatantly exposes our managements view regarding our value to the company and demonstrates that they just don't care about us.

This tendency towards DEC's is far worse for many pilots at EK, than the vast assortment of other negative changes recently.

Nothing against those pilots who are about to join as DEC's, most of us would do the same, but lets be honest. Many DEC's will be less capable, less knowledgeable and less personable (Capt America springs to mind), than most of the F/O's with whom I fly on a daily basis.

If you think this airline has finally sunk to the bottom of the sludge pool when it comes to its treatment of employees, they will surely find yet another way to force us to lower our expectations. The situation here has become laughable in many respects.

ps. I cannot imagine anyone from a decent place, even if they are unemployed at the moment, considering joining this operation. 6 years to upgrade?? wow, it might be 10 now!

[Pitch Up Authority]

EK is short of pilots and they will hire anybody they can get.

[sexdriven]

Do DEC,s also need 4000hrs on an EK type?

[Firestorm]

EK is short of pilots and they will hire anybody they can get

Maybe I'll apply then! I 'm not qualified for a command, but if they are that desperate... We'll I've got two good legs, and can spell my own name.

More seriously recruiting DECs in any numbers doesn't do much for the airline. SFOs feel bypassed, and let down, and loyalty to the company is eroded. The DECs are usually looking for temporary employment until their own country's economy recovers then they bang out again, as do the SFOs, and the airline is left with a lower quality of crew than it could have with a bit of foresight, and strategic planning. Strategic planning isn't something that airlines have in abundance the world over...

[airbus757]

Do not be surprised when this airline becomes like Singapore Airlines. Eventually all Captains will be hired as Captains and all First Officers will be hired as First Officers with no chance of upgrade. This will not apply to the Local Staff. The painful part is going to be when they make the transition. There will be a huge number of First Officers who suddenly realize they will never be upgraded. The transition will begin when the airline approaches the end of its growth.

Just a prediction. Time will tell. You can bet your bottom dollar, if it will save the company money they will do it in a heartbeat. They do not care about the humans who keep the airline going.

7

[GMC1500]

I'm not a bean counter, but can someone explain how it saves the company money to hire DEC's rather than upgrade senior FO's and hiring new FO's to replace them?:confused:

[fatbus]

1 upgrade course + 2 new hire FO full courses

DEC 1 quick transtition + 1 Fo new hire

When explanding if you have 10 capts and 10 fo and need 15 you will upgrade 5 fo's leaving you with 5 and needing 15

[pool]

The explanation is quite simple:
As the FO pool dries out because the T&Cs are now known to be crap and the AAR intimidation campaign leaves its stinkin' marks, and only the desperate and unemployed FOs apply, but the company desperately needs more pilots, they look for DECs. There are much more on the market, especially those stuck on single aisle jets for another century. The shiny twin aisles at EK have a huge appeal and the pprune-deaf and blind join. FOs at EK get pi$$ed due to their being stuck on the right seat, they leave, making the hole on the right even bigger. Upgrades are therefore not possible, and even more DECs are necessary.
I predict a wave of downgradings in the near future. If you consider the complete bs punishment mentality setting in (the last couple of buddies I flew with, right or left, have almost ALL had some sort of warning on their record, for the very slightest little bs they can come up with), it is obvious that the ever more lacking numbers on the rhs will be filled with disciplined captains. Clever, clever! Watch your back now.

[Virtual Reality]

It happened in CX, EY, SQ, QR and most of major airlines is Asia as well...............:ugh:

No different and there is nothing special in EK as far as bean counters are concerned ...........:}

Pilot is just a number .........:yuk:


VR

[Payscale]

wet vee 2..

Whoooa cowboy! hold your horses. Not very nice thoughts you have about the ethics in the Training Dept... We dont do that!!
DEC is a part of any expat airline. If you didnt know that, then you didnt do your homework.
If someone being recruited today believes in a 4 year command, well then that would imply a doubling of the fleet. Hardly possible in these times..

Accept that there will be DEC and self propelled goal posts...this is the middle east.

Payscale

[southflyer]

.... ethics at the EK training department.... ha ha ha thanks for the laugh...

[ekwhistleblower]

Good discussion but no DECs were interviewed last week!

[Volverine]

TRE/TRI/LTC = license to kill
What a nice and easy job, MUCH less risk than in Irak but still......whatch your back guys !:E

[Wizofoz]

Good discussion but no DECs were interviewed last week!

Yeah, but something about "Truth" and "a good story".

After all, we just did three pages on someone NOT being disciplined for carrying extra fuel...

[Patty747400]

EK:s website says you need at least 1500 hours on 330/340 or 777 to be considered for DEC so I'm surprised by these comments:

"Some guys (DEC's) are seriously lacking in many departments when it comes to long haul wide body ops, but considering that the previous job didn't develop that side of their career"

"...they look for DECs. There are much more on the market, especially those stuck on single aisle jets for another century."

Anyone cares to explain?


I have 4000+ command hours international operations on the 747-400 and have not been offered an interview so I don't think they are as desperate as some of you might believe. (After learning here about the conditions you operate under I'm not sure I would want the job even if I could).

[BigGeordie]

Patty, they didn't used to be that bothered about time on an Emirates type. We had DECs joining who had only ever flown a 737 around Europe. Some of the ones without longhaul experience struggled a bit in some of the more "interesting" places we operate into.

[Pitch Up Authority]

The main difference between long haul and short haul is that you have to perform when your body does not want to. In others words if you need to be 100 % on the short haul you will suffer badly on the long haul.

DEC or not.

[BigGeordie]

Well, that would be one of the differences but I would suggest that there are more challenges than that. It really is impossible to compare the radar enviroment in Europe, whith VHF comms everywhere, to a (say) procedural RNAV approach into Addis. To say nothing of the fun on the ground once you get there.

Europe has its own challenges but they are completely different to the ones we face on a day to day basis on the EK network. You don't need to be God's gift to aviation but it does take time to adapt.

[Che Xindamail]

Just a few comments on the "baby-sitting" issue.

A DEC with 20 years airline experience and 10 years as captain will (almost) always be a better overall commander than an F/O with 10 years total airline experience.

Granted, the cosmetics of company SOP's and certain local knowledge will be to the F/O's advantage in comparison with the new DEC, but overall, the old guy will be the more suitable Commander, simply because he's more experienced.

DECs are the future, accept it. For financial reasons as someone rightly illustrated, but also because it makes sense to recruit the necessary overall experience to a growing company. You don't see doctors applying for nurses jobs.

Those that see themselves as "baby-sitters", I think your comments reflect on your lack of suitability as future Commanders. Sadly.

[ruserious]

incoming :}

[GoreTex]

I think Fastman has a valid point

[parabellum]

Fastman: did you actually read what you I wrote in it's entirety?

Looks like he did!:)

[airbus757]

Gents, when was the last time you were concerned or even aware of the seniority and grade of the flight attendants. If one of the flight attendants was junior but held a higher position than one of their co-workers it is unlikely that I would even notice. On the occasions where I did notice I certainly would not give it much thought. All I am concerned with is do I have the required crew to do the job. That is exactly how our managers look at us. As long as the job is getting done as cheaply as possible they will be happy. Individual issues do not matter.

7

[etops777]

Just attended the recurrent GS. They said the hiring of DEC was not true and the company has stopped hiring of DECs.

[pool]

What's the difference between information from pprune and information from any EK body?

The one is a rumor, the other a blatant lie.

I actually don't know anything about the DEC stuff, but please, information out of a GS?????

To cite a fellow poster on another thread: I have not been lied to as many times in my previous life as in the very few years at EK. They pretend it's cultural, but extremely well duplicated by "western" spit-bowl-holders.

[Che Xindamail]

Regarding DECs suitability.

Just to clarify, my generalization refers to captains that have been trained in normal, well-renowned flying organizations and as such have had their command aptitude put to the test.

Naturally guys from less than desirable backgrounds should not make the cut, and maybe that's where airlines fail in the selection procedures. I maintain the notion that experience in normal airline operations counts in the left seat, and that's why DECs are here to stay.

[donpizmeov]

The DEC thing is no longer an issue. The fellas that joined post 2003 knew all about them before joining. In fact they had to scroll down below the DEC info to find the FO info on the emirates careers website. So knowing that EK hired DECs and what this would mean they still decided EK was the right place for them.

The Fos that joined prior to 2003 were shafted and lied to by the company, and really are the only people that have a real gripe with the DEC issue.

the Don

[BigGeordie]

Everybody that joined prior to the announcement of DECs in 2003 had now had a chance of a command course. As Don says, the situation is not good, and not right, but it is not a secret either. The company has hired and will continue to hire DECs to meet their needs. It isn't going to change.

[Oceanic]

Agreed that those who joined post '03 have always known about the DEC program, but as with everything at Ek the goalposts were continually shifted. Initially it was only for those with substantial wide body command time on an Ek type aircraft. Then when the applicants that were eligible dried up the requirements were reduced until (as mentioned by one previous poster), there were candidates accepted from the left seat of narrow body aircraft who had never ventured outside Europe.

Those from my previous employer who joined Ek up to 18 months after I did came in as DEC's where as that opportunity was denied to me as the criteria were higher when I applied. Fortuitous, yes, but fair?

[DHC6to8]

edited at the request of another

[411A]

A DEC with 20 years airline experience and 10 years as captain will (almost) always be a better overall commander than an F/O with 10 years total airline experience.

Positively correct.

I maintain the notion that experience in normal airline operations counts in the left seat, and that's why DECs are here to stay.

Agree.

Those that see themselves as "baby-sitters", I think your comments reflect on your lack of suitability as future Commanders.

Not only that, but suitable for the RHS job as well.

IF I was running EK, I would hire Captains to be Captains, and First Officers to be First Officers...with the proviso that the latter category might be upgraded, if I felt like it.
SQ had the right idea, many years ago.

At SQ years ago, locals had a well defined career path.
Expats?
You were hired for a specific FD position, period...with a very few exceptions.
When locals were due for Command training, their complete files were checked, especially the monthly fitness report filed by each line Captain they had flown with, that past month.
Too many black marks?
Rejected for either upgrade to larger equipment, or upgrade to command.
SK (Charlie) Chan, the DFO at the time, ran a tight ship, and his policies kept First Officers on a short tether.

A wise precaution, in my view.

[captainsmiffy]

411A, do you own a goldfish?

[Phantom Driver]

Guess a few guys here (maybe) new to the PP forum, or otherwise unfamiliar with 411A's role as "Winder-Up-in-Chief", in which case serves you right for taking the bait.

However, for the more observant, it must be said that there is often a germ of truth in a lot of his (obviously) more unpopular observations:ok:.

What I say is-"To thine own self be true"-if you are going to be fit for the left seat, (ability, attitude, preparation, etc, etc.), nothing will stop you. Fairly simple, isn't it?

p.s F/O once said to me, "never trust a Captain!". (in jest, of course). Replied back -"Agree absolutely; Never trust anyone!":)