Muscat/ Mumbai handoff whinge

[global707]

The usual pallava going eastbound through Muscat FIR towards India. We were being held 4000ft below our planned level (having departed base on slot time) First MCT sector unable to offer anything higher "the next sector will be able to help" they said. Finally get to within 50nm of the Mumbai FIR when we are told "radar service terminates call Mumbai on HF" Response to this is 1. What freqs in use (does it ever make a difference!) 2. Is our planned level avail? Response; "NO due traffic" I say, "well is it traffic in front or behind and what speed are they at?" ...... "I don't have time to help you; goodnight"!! :ugh:

Who ever you are.....thanks for the really professional service.... Someday I hope to be able to return the goodness that you put out there.

Time 2350ish on 123.95

[White Knight]

Well it's simple really - Muscat is really BUSY so plan accordingly.. I think Muscat does a great job considering the airways constraints they have to work with...

That they haven't got time to reply to you one on one is probably a symptom of the system, not the controller!!!

Anyway - big deal - don't you carry contingency????:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[GoreTex]

who cares if you get the level or not? does it really affect your life? dont waste your energy for somebody who doesn't give a .... about you

[ATCO1962]

Hey, global,

As a Muscat controller, I can tell you that the situation you described happens a number of times every night. The sector responsible for feeding your aircraft into Bombay's airspace has up to 38 planes at a time and each one has to be fed into procedural airspace and we cannot use Mach number technique, even though our letter of agreement with Bombay allows for it. That means that we are severely overloaded at night and it's now every night that that is the case. The only thing that I'd say the controller did wrong, if what you say is exactly what was said, was to indicate that the next sector could help. Often, the next sector drops aircraft to a lower level because of congestion or Bombay in transigence. Either way, be kind because you have no idea how difficult it can be at that time of night. Be grateful you didn't have a TCAS event. And please don't start asking "Who's the traffic?, etc" because you'll get an acid reply from me, I can assure you. Even if the frequency seems relatively quiet, you can bet your bottom dollar that the controller is snowed under doing all the coordination necessary so that you don't get stuck at FL270 and that's not as easy as it sounds.

And by the way, in all likelihood, the controller you described will be no "git" but a highly qualified artisan who was doing his best to give you the service level that you can expect with a hopelessly overloaded system and limited equipment and procedures. Choose your descriptors wisely, please.

[CAYNINE]

Hear Hear ATCO, well said!

I have heard so much crap on the radio in the last few years in the MCT FIR. Especially the 400 series and the 300 series flights that believe they have the god given right to argue/negotiate/or sometimes blatantly direct their wishes at the ATCO.

For God's sake shut the F##* up and read the above post again.

I get sick of having pilots with an axe to grind taking up the airwave space when others are coming on freq at the boundary. MCT, UAE, etc do a damn good job.... furthermore you professionals out there....

"coming down",

"checkin in",

"outta 4 point 5 headin to 25oh"....

don't seem to appear in the phraseology section of ATC....

Just my beef :)

[ALK A343]

Hey ATCO 1962,

You guys do a good job out there! Keep it up! I cross your airspace almost every other night and about 80% of the time we get the requested level.
When we do get stuck at FL290, it is no big deal, that is why we carry our contingency as somebody mentioned earlier. Also in our case crossing the arabian sea only takes 1 hour out of a total flying time of 4.5 hours, so being stuck at lower levels is not really that dramatic.
Talk to you guys soon on 123.95!
ALK A343

[White Knight]

Well - the comments are there to read and digeast global707...

Looks like YOU are the git:}

[PorkKnuckle]

the controller you described will be no "git" but a highly qualified artisan who was doing his best

Unlike the "artisan" on 123.95 the other night who steadfastly ignored initial calls from three aircraft in a row, then had everyone "Say again" the info they'd transmitted up front in the first place.

This fella had a local accent. Couldn't be bothered taking it in and just ignored everyone. Yeah I'm sure they're busy sometimes but other guys seem to be able to lift a finger and at least transmit, "Standby." Or they seem able to take in the info while doing something else, then get back to the aircraft and not need everything said all over again.

How many instances of returning to previous Muscat or UAE freq with, "No joy on 12X.XX", to be answered with, "Okay try again now (I just woke him up.)"......??

Question:

Do the Muscat staff have any contact with the imbeciles in Bombay and know which HF freq is in "use" by them or do they just read off every HF freq on the chart to the pilot?

If the latter, may as well save your breath and air time as it's written all over the chart anyway. On the other hand, if known, the freq actually in use at the time WOULD be handy sometimes... :ok: This is not new or cutting edge practice, it's actually done in western FIRs! :ok:

Thankyou for that small favour, oh gods of the tower!!! :p

A small amount of timely information can make a difference on a long flight. Maybe knowing how long you're going to be at a level and burning more than planned and being able to plan ahead could be handy for the guy in the seat.

Really, just HOW hard is it for ATS to say something like, "Negative traffic ahead, flight level ***, same airway, destination is *****."

Now it's the pilot's problem but at least he has an idea of the bigger picture and maybe it might even affect the end result for 300 odd paying passengers - one of whom could be an ATS staff member on vacation.

But this git still had time to be a smartass.

The "S" in ATS stands for Service but obviously some precious types seem to have forgotten that.

[ATCO1962]

Hi Porkknuckle,

As in all occupations, there are always a few who spoil the good name of others so I won't make an excuse for those who should know/do better. That said, I sit next to a lot of our controllers, both expat and local, and they have all lifted their games to cope with the huge increases of traffic that we've seen in the last few years. Sometimes, we have so many aircraft on our screens and so many pending that it's hard to see the wood for the trees. That East sector controller has to do all the initial sequencing for both Dubai and Abu Dhabi, with no flow control measures in place for aircraft from the Bombay FIR, and that task in itself can be overwhelming. With urgent coordination necessary, sometimes your check-in calls are deliberately ignored in favour of ensuring that the coord is accurate and timely with other controllers. Ideal? Hardly. Necessary sometimes? Yes.

The East sector is also plagued with another problem. It stretches for about 800 miles, I think, and aircraft in the RASKI/PARAR region cannot hear transmissions on the other side of the FIR so sometimes, when it appears that a controller is ignoring you, he is, in fact, desperately trying to hear more calls elsewhere and doesn't have the time to explain it all to you. A little grace extended to us would help a lot. In most cases, we're not trying to spoil your day or wanting to deny people the levels that they want. It's just that we're struggling to cope with the sheer volume of traffic, traffic that is not limited by flow control except in the case of UAE departures.

As for Bombay, yes, we have direct comms with them via a landline but we are subject to the whims of the controller de jour. There is a lot of variance in the performance of their controllers but I undertsand they have their own problems. We would be helped enormously if some of them told their management to implement Mach number technique so we can reduce our current 10 minute separation standard to a minimum of 5 minutes between a faster aircraft followed by a slower aircraft. As well, they block FL330 from being used most of the day to allow for crossing aircraft in their airspace. I would like to see them change that to FL290 or lower so the bulk of the E-W traffic can get their long-haul levels.

The HF freq's are given to us by Bombay every few hours but I can tell you from long experience; it will usually be 10084/10018/8879 during the day and 5658/5601/6661/3467 during the night. When we have time, we'll give it to you but we assume that some operators, like IAC and AIC already know the freq's to expect.

Hope that helps. Please be kind to us while we drown in traffic. We are actively trying to recruit the numbers necessary to sectorise to more manageable sector sizes, but that'll take some time.

Cheers

[mensaboy]

A general thank you to Muscat ATC but there does seem to be a decline in the usually high standard of Muscat ATC (perhaps new controllers hired to handle the ridiculous amount of similar EK flights scheduled thru their airspace at the same time?) all jockeying for their prefered altitude.

Muscat has it tough though, being situated between Mumbai's superbly managed airspace, Tehran and the UAE's insightful departure and arrival planning. No wonder controllers occasionally get annoyed when some of us come across as being irritating (or irritating for that matter). We are on the same team though, that being flight safety and efficiency, so perhaps we should all direct our displeasure at those responsible for the chaos and not each other.

It can be frustrating to be held at the gate for 45 minutes, at the beginning of a red-eye variation flight, only to discover that once you reach Muscat you might still not get your desired altitude. And YES, it can be a big concern being kept lower especially eastbound because not only is it less than an optimum altitude based on aircraft performance, but the higher altitudes give a much better (and planned-for) tailwind component.

And by the way, what is with this new belief on the part of some local pilots, that if they get on the radio and intersperse local jargon, then magically ATC will accomodate our wishes? That reeks of favoritism and an inherent belief that some individuals expect preferential treatment, which from my experience does not happen and is not a professional attitude to have.

Totally agree with your comments Caynine.

[ATCO1962]

mensaboy,

Thanks for the understanding. The flow control you allude to out of the UAE with, reference to 45 minute waits at the gate, is still only a stop-gap measure and is not handled by a dedicated flow control mananagement unit and we're not likely to get one of those for a number of years yet. The NOTAMs that give guidance to companies as to how we manage flow is, in fact, all we have. It's a blunt-force weapon that we've applied that really has no science behind it except that it may just keep two aircraft apart somewhere along the way, we hope. I have a lot of sympathy for the UAE guys who have to somehow work out how they can apply the restrictions that we have set up because they are complicated just to read, let alone apply.

We, too, give our thanks to the many crew who have had to endure awful levels without complaint. After almost 20 years here, I have certainly noticed a significant decrease in pointed questions on the frequency when desired levels are not given. In the good, old days, and we had the time, we would almost always juggle levels to give the optimum levels to the longest-haul flights. Sadly, these days, we haven't got the time in the busiest periods to strategise in that manner.

With respect to favoured treatment, I would think that any level changes made would be a rarity. None of us are good enough to be able to offer that kind of "service" to anyone in our moments of madness. It may happen in quieter moments but I would still hope that most of our lads and lasses are above that.

Safe flying.

edited for clarity

[global707]

To all who have joined or followed the discussion. I would be one of the first to say that the MCT controllers generally do a fantastic job, knowing the constraints that they have to work with. The difference between someone providing you with some basic traffic information takes a matter of seconds; in fact probably about the same amount of time to say "I don't have time to give you any information"

The original post was not a whinge and moan about getting a lower level; and yes White Knight, I do carry contingency like everyone else; it is about the professionalism of a controller telling you he doesn't have time to assist you, so that you can execute your job in the safest manner possible. If the attitude is that they don't have time then why have them at all? Of course we need them and as has been pointed out on the thread, it is only a few who ruin it for the majority. i'm not sure that if a controller was revalidating his rating and he used that phrase during a check that he would score very highly with the examiner.

I have often thought it would be a very useful exercise for us drivers to spend a night at MCT en-route to see what you guys have to put up with, and like wise, come for a ride with us and see our side.

Anyway, it's good to see a lively discussion coming from this
Cheers
:8

[BlueSkye]

"well is it traffic in front or behind and what speed are they at?

I was going to type a long response to this but will keep it short.

I'll speak for myself in this case but be very carefull when you start asking questions like the above. Also take caution in your tone when you do decide to ask.

[White Knight]

Heck guys - a couple of hours even up to a few levels lower doesn't have a huge impact on either time or fuel when you're taking a 14 hour flight out to Oz. In fact it doesn't impinge badly on shorter flights either..... Do some of you know what 'contingency' means:rolleyes::rolleyes:

And why not just do your captain thing and uplift extra fuel if you're running through Muscat during peak flow - it's hardly rocket science is it?:ugh:

Just accept that the level you want may be occupied - who it is and where it's going doesn't matter because on the oceanic sector it ain't going to help anyway!!!!!

[Toruk Macto]

It's a planned level . You speak as, it's my god given right, Level.:ugh:

[fatbus]

But that s where the problem is, EK has way too many self appointed SKY GODS that really think they are entitled to that alt. These Capt's need to chill and stop trying to impress their FO's. Stop trying to impress your FO with BS.

Be a man , do the right thing- have some patients or take fuel

[jackbauer]

have some patients
What? You mean like a doctor?:ugh:

[fatbus]

patience - sorry about that

[Gulfstreamaviator]

I heard many HF freqs being passed to Aircraft for Mumbai.

Most were not read back, by I assume knowledgable local crews.

I was north south not east west, and had two direct routings, that were mostly welcomed.

Glf

[oz in dxb]

My pet hate is aircraft asking Muscat for Mubai's HF frequencies.
Come on guys, use your charts (paper or EFB). Low frequencies for night and high frequencies for day as explained by ATCO1962.

I'm sure this would help in reducing Muscat workload and chatter.

Oz

[Rule3]

Oz.....

It shocks me that so many pilots and ATCs do not comprehend the HF rules.:confused:
I have tried to help the uneducated with... "The higher the Sun the higher frequency, and always be on the alert for depressed MUFs.:ok:

[Guy D'ageradar]

I have often thought it would be a very useful exercise for us drivers to spend a night at MCT en-route to see what you guys have to put up with, and like wise, come for a ride with us and see our side.. :ok:

About time someone realised how valuable such visits are (or should I say, WOULD BE).

Gone, unfortunately, are the days of fam flights, the purpose of which was to give us lowly controllers some idea of what goes on up there.

I can, however, count on the fingers of one hand, the number of times that I have seen the aforementioned SKY GODS deigning to pay US a visit during my 20 years of experience. I don't think it would matter much whether you decided to visit Muscat/ UAE centre/ Dubai approach - as long as that visit was not timed to coincide with the daily afternoon lull in traffic.

Around 11:30 pm would be much more effective in demonstrating just why you may not get your preferred level/route/place in the sequence and would, perhaps, make you think twice about wasting our time with inane complaints on a very busy frequency.:ugh:

Professionalism works BOTH WAYS.

In the meantime, we all do our best each and every day to make a very inefficient, overworked, poorly equipped system work through all the monthly "double digit" traffic growth announcements without the cracked seams giving under the pressure. :ok::ok::ok:

Long may we continue to be able to do so!

Happy landings!!

Guy.

[oz in dxb]

It shocks me that so many pilots and ATCs do not comprehend the HF rules.
I have tried to help the uneducated with... "The higher the Sun the higher frequency, and always be on the alert for depressed MUFs.

Unfortunately we have a lot of pilots who have rarely or never used HF radio as part of their flying career. For most guys it's their bread and butter. It's up to these guys to pass on their experience to them.
The others are just plain lazy to look at a chart:ugh:

SUN HIGH - HIGHER HF FREQ SUN LOW - LOWER HF FREQ

Oz