737 Logging command time.

[Tee Emm]

Question re interpretation of "Cruise First Officer versus Cruise captain" and logging of command hours by whom.

Scenario: Due duty time limits aircraft flies with thee pilot crew of one captain and two first officers. One of the first officers is "qualified" as a Cruise "captain" but only when operating above 10,000 ft. During part of the flight, the actual captain has a break by relaxing in the cabin leaving the Cruise "Captain" in the left seat with another F/O in right seat. By CASA regs there can only be one pilot in command of a flight regardless of a company procedure that allows a first officer to be upgraded to be in command above 10,000 ft only.

Question arises of the legality of the Cruise "captain" position as there is no definition of this position in the Regs. The cruise captain is still a first officer by definition.

How should the cruise captain (who is really a first officer and wears F/O stripes and gets F/O salary) log his hours. Can he legally log command time for the amount of time he spends above 10,000 ft in the left seat while the real captain snoozes down the back? He can't log ICUS because he is not under supervision while the captain snoozes down the back. Or does he log copilot time in the right seat until above 10,000 ft when the real captain leaves his seat and then should he legally log all the flight as copilot because the Regs say thre can only be one pilot in command.

Put another way if the captain is snoozing down the back does the captain still log the whole flight from take off to landing as in command? If so, it would not be legal for the cruise captain to also log command as the Regs don't allow it.

If for example an emergency happened while the cruise captain is up front above 10,000 ft would it be expected that the real captain would come back up front and assume handling control?

The question arises because the logging of command time (rather than copilot time) by a first officer designated as Cruise captain above 10,000 ft (a company designated altitude) - seems a contradiction of the regs where the operator must designate only one pilot in command for the flight (take off to landing)

[404 Titan]

Tee Emm

Your ops manual should reveal all. If it doesn’t try speaking with your fleet office and get a clarification.

Where I work, CX the Relief Pilot in Charge logs P1US or as it is called back home in Aus, ICUS. Only one person on the flight can log command or P1 and that is the captain nominated by the company, even while he is having a snooze.

CAR 5.40 Pilot acting in command under supervision

(1) A person must not fly an aircraft as pilot acting in command under
supervision unless:

(a) the person holds:
(i) a commercial pilot licence or an air transport pilot licence;

or

(i) a certificate of validation that has effect as if it were a commercial pilot licence or an air transport pilot licence;

and

(b) the person holds an aircraft endorsement that authorises him or her to fly the aircraft as pilot in command; A P1 endorsement

and

(c) if the person proposes to carry out an activity for which a flight crew rating is required—the person holds a flight crew rating, or grade of flight crew rating, that permits him or her to carry out that activity as pilot in command of the aircraft concerned; ie, an instrument rating

and

(d) the person is the co-pilot of the aircraft;

and

(e) the operator of the aircraft permits the person to fly the aircraft as pilot acting in command under supervision; This can be a banket approval in the operators ops manual.

and

(f) the pilot in command of the aircraft is appointed for the purpose by the operator of the aircraft. ie, A captain has been nominated by the company as the commander of the flight.

[chimbu warrior]

What about if the Captain steps out of the flight deck to answer a call of nature? Should the F/O be logging that 3 minutes (or 10 minutes if the Captain has a prostate problem) as command? :zzz:

[mrdeux]

You can log command time if the captain drops dead. Otherwise you can't....

[Peter Fanelli]

Cruise crew?
On a 737?

[404 Titan]

Tee Emm

I should have mentioned that at CX the Relief pilot in Charge can only log ICUS/P1US if he/she is pilot flying, i.e. conducts the take-off and landing. If not then they log P2.

Peter Fanelli

I thought the same thing.:confused:

[Tee Emm]

Your ops manual should reveal all.

Some things published in an Ops Manual are often the personal opinion of the writer and not necessarily backed up by legal facts. Where does that place pilots (as described in the first post) with regards to CASA audits of log books. And CASA do look at log books sometimes.

[PLovett]

Tee Emm, in Australia at least it is a CASA approved Ops Manual.

CASA only has the power to approve what is in accordance with the legislation or to approve a dispensation from that legislation, not to approve something that is not in accord with the legislation.

And before someone gets all hot under the collar, I am talking about the legal situation. I know of several instances where CASA has required something in an Ops Manual that does not comply with the legislation and therefore, is illegal. However, it does not seem to concern CASA.

PF and 404 T, have not DJ used a 737 on a Bali run where a cruise crew might be required? I don't know the answer but it is a possibility.

[404 Titan]

Tee Emm

As PLovett has said, in Australia an Ops manual is a legal document approved by CASA. It is an integral part of the granting of a company’s AOC.

[Eskimo Joe]

And CASA do look at log books sometimes.
...and these comments on Pprune too I reckon

[Lasiorhinus]

CAO 40.1.0 para 10.7
The holder of an air transport pilot (aeroplane) licence must log his or her flight time
in accordance with whichever of the following is applicable:
(a) any flight time during which the licence holder acts as pilot in command must be
entered in his or her log book as time in command;

The captain of the aircraft logs the entire flight time as command, whether they are manipulating the controls, letting the co-pilot manipulate the controls, or even if they're on the toilet or sleeping. (Or both.)

CAR 2
co-pilot means a pilot serving in any piloting capacity other than the pilot in command.

Everyone else flying the aircraft, First Officer, Second Officer, logs co-pilot.

[Checkboard]

The person nominated by the company as being in command of the flight, i.e. the commander, logs the entire time they hold that position as command flight time. Asleep, awake, in the loo, doesn't matter.

The person who the company & the commander allow to make some decisions about the conduct of the flight while the commander is at rest is "In command, under supervision" (even if alone on the flight deck - under supervision doesn't necessarily mean "under the direct gaze of") and logs the time in an ICUS column, if they have one in their logbook. If they don't have an ICUS column, then the time is logged in the co-pilot column, with an explanatory note that the time was ICUS.

Why the "co-pilot" column? - Because only the commander may log command time for a flight - all other pilots are co-pilots, and that includes examiners, supervisors, Captains in the right hand seat etc. etc. The "co" in co-pilot doesn't mean "of a lesser stature", it simply means that their duties for that flight did not include being responsible for the conduct of the flight.

[601]

Tee Emm, in Australia at least it is a CASA approved Ops Manual.

Except for the "AAAA" Part 137 OM. CASA do not approve OMs. They accept the OM and can direct that changes be made to the OM (CAR 215(3)).

This may change under CASR Part 119

[PLovett]

Happy to stand corrected 601.

Note to self: must try to look at bleedin' legislation more often but what a thankless task. :ugh::{:ok:

[404 Titan]

Checkboard
The person who the company & the commander allow to make some decisions about the conduct of the flight while the commander is at rest is "In command, under supervision" (even if alone on the flight deck - under supervision doesn't necessarily mean "under the direct gaze of") and logs the time in an ICUS column, if they have one in their logbook. If they don't have an ICUS column, then the time is logged in the co-pilot column, with an explanatory note that the time was ICUS.
For an Australian AOC holder unless the operator allows an FO to log ICUS on a normal line flight as per CAR 5.40 par 1 (e), they must log P2 or Co-pilot.

Lasiorhinus
Everyone else flying the aircraft, First Officer, Second Officer, logs co-pilot.
You are correct unless the operator allows them to log ICUS as per CAR 5.40 par 1 (e).

601
CASA do not approve OMs. They accept the OM
Ah yes I remember when Toller had this changed in the late 90’s. Still even with the acceptance bit, if an operator has a blanket statement in their ops manual allowing FO’s log ICUS on line flights, they are complying with the legal intent of CAR 5.40.

[Checkboard]

Did I not say that? :confused:

The person who the company & the commander allow...

[404 Titan]

Ckeckboard

Actually you have implied they can only log ICUS when the captain is having a rest. This isn’t correct. If the company and the FO are complying with CAR 5.40 then the FO can log ICUS anytime he/she is pilot flying.

[Goat Whisperer]

I don't see that it's relevant to the discussion that it's a 737. Same rules as 767/A330/747/A380 on a sector of similar duration would apply.

And no, VB doesn't require augmented/heavy crew for Bali or even Phuket. The E Jet Christmas/Cocos runs take a third pilot, although the duty is within the limits for two crew. The third is carried to enable greater operational integrity.

[compressor stall]

I agree that F/O's (when required for supernumerary reasons) should only log the time he/she spends at the stick, however I understand that there are some airlines that allow BOTH the F/O's to log the whole flight (as does the Capt).

I had a length discussion about this with the regulator a while back. They could no definitive interpretation about it.

[john_tullamarine]

CASA do not approve OMs. They accept the OM
Ah yes I remember when Toller had this changed in the late 90’s

.. a while since I have been involved with Ops Manual workup and maintenance. However, as long as I can remember, and that goes back well prior to the 90s, the Australian Regulator (of whichever name was flavour of the day) only accepted, rather than approved, the Ops Manual ?

.. indeed, a trivia point.

[Checkboard]

Ah! Now I understand! Sorry for the poor wording, as I was replying in this context. One point however:

If the company and the FO are complying with CAR 5.40 then the FO can log ICUS anytime he/she is pilot flying.

Being pilot flying has nothing to do with it. ICUS is "training for command", and relates to making the command decisions for the conduct of the flight (Maintenance log scrutiny, MEL appropriateness, fuel, holding, alternate, tracking, diversion, en-route weather & turbulence avoidance tactics, high terrain escape route & political briefing, crew co-ordination, load & balance scrutiny, dangerous goods decisions, disruptive passenger refusal/offload etc etc). If the operation is briefed as an ICUS exercise, then the pilot logs the entire time spent making these decisions (under the review of the legal commander, of course) as ICUS. An FO acting as "cruise captain" (silly term) is still ICUS if the second officer is PF, and indeed still may be ICUS if the commander is PF.

I agree that F/O's (when required for supernumerary reasons) should only log the time he/she spends at the stick, however I understand that there are some airlines that allow BOTH the F/O's to log the whole flight (as does the Capt).

If you are a pilot rostered for that flight, you log the entire time that you hold that position - ie the time the aircraft is in flight. The role you play determines how you log that flight time. Again, "stick time" has nothing to do with it. This is because the log is there to define who was responsible for what for that flight. The only context where the log is used to determine experience in the form of physical handling skill is when logging IF time.

[Tee Emm]

he only context where the log is used to determine experience in the form of physical handling skill is when logging IF time.

I wouldn't say that monitoring or giving input to the automatic pilot is exactly a physical handling skill.

In fact, the opposite is often the case given the generally accepted knowledge that pilot pure flying skills (meaning hand flying raw data no automatics input) are reported to have been significantly degraded because of automation dependancy.

The original concept of ICUS has been steadily corrupted. It was brought in as a method of logging the required 10 hours on type in command (but under supervision) before a pilot could fly charter (?) in command. Aimed basically at the light twin market. The haste for pilots of jet transports and other types to discard copilot time as worthy of only knaves and the lower classes, is quite amusing. It is not worth a pinch of s...t (salt) in terms of real experience because your friendly and ever vigilant captain is always aboard to ensure you don't stuff up along the route.

If a 737/A320 operation has a duty time problem and thus uses a one captain and two first officer augmented crew, then it beggars belief that above 10,000 ft someone other than the legal captain actually has the gall to log his time in the captains column of the log book. Whose leg is he pulling?

[compressor stall]

If a 737/A320 operation has a duty time problem and thus uses a one captain and two first officer augmented crew, then it beggars belief that above 10,000 ft someone other than the legal captain actually has the gall to log his time in the captains column of the log book. Whose leg is he pulling?

Agreed, but to digress in this instance slightly in your airline what co-pilot time do both FO's log? The whole flight, or the ~2/3rds that they were at the controls? I'd be interested to find out what airlines do what.

[Checkboard]

I think you've been under-logging your hours, stallie! :bored:

[compressor stall]

Hmm, quite possibly. At least I can sleep at night though! :}