Pilot shortage coming or Not??

[AllInGoodTime]

Do people think that there is a massive increase in demand for crew coming or as we come out of this recession that airlines will be more cautious with recruitment? I first thought that recruitment might pick up where it left off before the GFC, but not sure now. Airlines are recruiting, but will we get to the point where we see a shortage??

[A37575]

but will we get to the point where we see a shortage??

Has never happened in Australia and never will. Traditionally, there has always been far too many pilots for too few jobs. The first positive indication of a pilot shortage in Australia will be when the RFDS are forced to lower their minimum hours from 2500 to 1500 or less. And that ain't never gonna happen either.

[chongololo]

The pilot shortage is a myth, it always was and always will be.
The only shortage you might see is in certain markets( CRJ FO's in China) for certain crew members but that in it's self does not constitute a shortage.
Don't believe what the training outfits tell you, they just want to get you in the door and hand over your cash.

[Gligg]

As stated, there has never been and probably never will be a shortage of pilots in Australia, at least not at the lower experience levels. There are occasionally gaps in the regionals when a large number of captains get hired during expansion times for the big boys, but these are positions you need relevant experience to fill, and if that experience isnt available locally will be filled using work visas (think Qlink awhile back)

[Metro man]

Shortage of people who can easily transition into the specific job, whose qualifications and experience are a good match to the requirements, who will perform well and be suitable for promotion. YES

Shortage of unsuitable people, those with the absolute minimum requirements who will require extensive training, have a high failure rate and be unsuitable for promotion (ie bums on seats) NO

[kevinsky18]

Pilot shortage = Nigerian Get rich Quick Scam. There's a reason those Nigerian scams keep coming to your e-mail in box, that's because there is always some sucker out there that believes it and gets taken for his life savings. Same goes for the pilot shortage scam that most flight training units spout off about.

[Peter Fanelli]

Some of you impatient up and coming pilots better hope Australia doesn't keep following the example of the USA


The Senate has approved an amendment to the FAA reauthorization bill that would boost required flight experience for new airline co-pilots to 800 hours, up from the current standard of 250 hours. Some airline safety advocates had been pushing for a 1,500-hour limit, but Sen. Charles Schumer, D-N.Y., the amendment's sponsor, said he simply "didn't have the votes" for such a drastic increase.


Hmmmm, you might need to fly Chieftains or 402's for a while.

[chimbu warrior]

Regarding the RFDS lowering their minimums below 2500 hours, that is still pretty low considering the demanding type of work they do.

It dosen't seem that long ago that nobody would let you near any sort of turbine below 5,000 hours.

[runway16]

CW,

I think that if you check again you will find that our American friends have legislated for 1,500 hours to be the minimum for RPT new-hires.

R16

[Wally Mk2]

'A37575' don't be too quick to say such things. True once upon a time the RFDS could pick & choose pilots with hrs like what CC said (5000) but those days are long gone as pilots of that caliber are shining the seats of the big birds these days with a LOT less.
A lot of the specific hr requirements of the RFDS comes from a contractual requirement not their own in house req's. We have CV's that you can't climb over but few are 'suitable' at the end of the day.
So in some ways yes there is a pilot shortage re our req's but generally now that the Airlines take very green pilots (as compared to many years ago) there are more pilots than jobs ATM.
'CC' is right once upon a time you couldn't go near a Turbine with less than a zillion hrs or even a PA31 for that matter but we have now much lower stsd's than days gone by for good or bad.

'CC' a lot of candidates whom come from GA that make it to the Sim level of the RFDS interview process fail because most fly under 'normal' conditions IE: day to day routine stuff with virtually no checking at Sim level that goes on for years so when they are faced with an Eng failure under a high work load situation in the Sim which I might add is a hand full anyway they fall over & bomb out. Basic IF skills as in on the dials with zero outside ref & rudimentary instrumentation is damn hard work!
Anyway there will always be a pilot shortage just depends on what level the bar is set:)

Wmk2

[PLovett]

r16, the legislation originally called for 1,500 hours but an amendment went through reducing it to 800 hours.

Hardly relevant in Oz where anyone going into the regionals will have more time than that.

Contrary to most here I do think there will be a pilot shortage. Perhaps not in the next year or two but certainly in 5 to 10. The number of fanatics wanting to do pilot training as a career option is declining.

The profession is no longer regarded as being desirable and the concept of spending vast amounts of money to be rewarded with a miserable income in some fly-blown corner of the country for a year or two while attaining the minimum experience for an airline job where the T & Cs' are being eroded constantly is rapidly losing any attraction for the modern generation.

There will always be those who are fascinated by flight and will put up with the conditions but I believe there numbers are declining below what the airlines will need in the future. Then look for changes in the way Oz pilots are trained for the airlines. I suspect it will change to resemble the European model with airline type training schools and MCPL training.

[waren9]

Pilot shortages?

Depends on what your definition of shortage is.

If you refer to pilots requiring "5000 hrs" to get near a turbine and other such historical (employer/insurance) experience requirements, then posssibly.

If you refer to the number of pilots who meet the legal minimums as set out for the issue of a licence and to fill a crew seat, then never.

In all reality ask yourself: Do pilots still pay for type ratings? If you can answer yes, then clearly theres no shortage. Is this likely to change? No.

[remoak]

Maybe not in Australia. but a common phenomenon in Europe. 1987 and 1995 spring to mind as being particularly good years for pilots. Awful lot of ozmates swelled the ranks of Easyjet in the '90s.

I got my first turboprop job at 720 hours, first turboprop command at 2000 hours, first jet command at about 2800 hours. Many, many people stepped into their first heavy jet job with around a thousand hours, many had commands by 3000 hours. In the late nineties, we were hiring jet F/Os with 250 hours and an approved course.

My first turboprop job, they were so keen to get me that they offered to pay for my CPL flight test and Instrument Rating. When I joined, I remarked to the training captain that our course of ten should help ease the crewing problem. He replied that they had had 18 resignations the previous week, and did I have any friends in NZ who wanted to come over? At the time, they were doing recruitment drives in Canada, offering free validations.

So yes, there is such a thing as a pilot shortage, and it looks like a big one is on the way in Europe once the world works out that it isn't in recession any more... so if you have a Euro passport...

[ResumeOwnNav]

Do pilots still pay for type ratings? If you can answer yes, then clearly theres no shortage.

Excellent analogy Waren.

Nav.

[waren9]

So yes, there is such a thing as a pilot shortage, and it looks like a big one is on the way in Europe once the world works out that it isn't in recession any more... so if you have a Euro passport...


A Euro passport?...............I wish!:{

[PLovett]

A Euro passport?...............I wish!

...and for the bleedin' JAA to come into the 20th Century for a start and get reasonable about the transference of ICAO licences to their own precious piece of paper. :ugh: At present it is nothing more than a trade barrier but should we be surprised given the EECs' ongoing protection racket for their farmers? :mad:

[sprocket check]

I'll sell you my EU passport, buy a bugsmasher and fly when I want where I want. I wish...

[A37575]

At last count I believe Virgin Blue had at least 1000 applications on their books with Qantas, and Jetstar about the same. And applications to Northern Territory and WA operators still go into the bin without being read. Shortage of pilots in the future? I don't think so.

[Howard Hughes]

A Euro passport?...............I wish!
You can have mine! Who would really want to leave Oz?;)

Give it three months and there will be plenty of movement. A shortage no, but plenty of movement ala 2000/1 and 2007/8!:ok:

[KRUSTY 34]

I reckon PLovett's post #12 is spot on. The profession is undergoing, and has been undergoing some fundamental changes for quite a few years now. There may be no shortage of "applications" but will there again be a pile of "suitable" resume's that one can't jump over? Especially for the second and third level operators.

In years gone past the stary eyed wannabes that couldn't make the distance eventually cut their loses and moved out of the game. There were however plenty of tenacious (some may say blindly fanatical) boys and girls who forsakeing just about everything else, continued to plod along in the hope that one day they would "make it", and eventually some did. The problem now is that these fanatical types are in much shorter supply. What we'll see in coming years is the growth in MPL and Cadet schemes. It is much more logical and less soul destroying if a new pilot to the game is garrenteed a job at the end, no matter what the income, and no matter what the initial expense. Airline managers love this because they now have a pile of applications that they can no longer jump over. Unfortunately, unless it's Qantas, there will be a different sort of pain waiting for the naive and/or the uninitiated, and I don't just mean the cadets themselves. If the regional airlines do not actively lead the way in creating a viable long term career within their organisations, then the cycle of schedule disruption and eventual reduction will continue.

But hey, everything's OK, we again have a pile of applications we can't jump over. :ok:

[patienceboy]

There was never really a shortage, just a surge in recruitment by the airlines following years of slow movement. This caused a lowering of experience levels temporarily in some ranks as people couldn't build hours quickly enough to meet historic levels before being promoted.
Any MORE pilots at the time would have been unemployed pilots.

This pattern may or may not be repeated for fleeting moments in the future.

[remoak]

Again - maybe not in Oz - but there was a very real shortage in the UK. That first airline I worked for cancelled flights every day for lack of crews, for months. The worst day, we had five aircraft parked because we just couldn't crew them. There was no such thing as a standby duty, every pilot worked max hours.

The other indicator from those days, is that my salary rose by over 38% in a year as they desperately tried to find pilots. And we aren't talking about experienced people - these were fresh CPL holders with minimum hours. The joke in those days was that all you needed to get into the third level carriers was a licence and a pulse.

The chances of it happening in Oz will increase as less and less people see aviation as a viable career. I would imagine that training has dropped right off over the last two years - it certainly has in NZ.

[Harry Cooper]

The first positive indication of a pilot shortage in Australia will be when the RFDS are forced to lower their minimum hours from 2500 to 1500 or less. And that ain't never gonna happen either.Don't be so sure, with the new RFDS QLD EBA passing around the traps, there is a lot of pressure for some other sections of the RFDS to lift their game, in relation to pay and conditions. With the lure of airlines and a large group of unhappy employees at this point who have voiced their disapproval at current conditions (not just the pay) the possibility of mass movements (I don't like the term exodus) does not seem so far away and with it could well see minimums drop as finding experienced guys becomes harder and harder.

[Captain Nomad]

Yeah, but whether they will make the 'cut' or not is another question as RFDS will not, and can't afford to, lower their standards. The learning curve is an aweful lot steeper for someone with less hours. It would be sad if someone 'gets in' and struggles and subsequently fails when after more time and experience elsewhere they would otherwise make the grade. During the recent so-called pilot shortage I think there was an increase in the number of people in that situation even despite the 'shortage.'

[PLovett]

A quote lifted from another forum site which I think sets the scene for the coming years. While it obviously refers to the US I do not think there is anything that I would disagree with in relation to Australia.

May 20, 2010

WASHINGTON — There are signs that future airline pilots will be less experienced, less ethical and in short supply, a panel of experts told an aviation safety forum on Tuesday.

While there are more pilots than there are airline jobs today, the reverse is likely to be true as airlines recover from the economic recession and begin hiring again, experts on pilot hiring and screening told the National Transportation Safety Board. The coming shortage may likely fall heaviest on regional airlines, who generally employ less-experienced pilots at lower salaries, they said.

There are about 54,000 pilots working for major airlines, nearly 19,000 regional airline pilots and about 2,500 qualified pilots available for hire in the U.S. today, said aviation consultant Judy Tarver, a former pilot recruiter for American Airlines. She estimated that airlines will need to hire about 42,090 pilots over the next decade, due to retirements and anticipated industry growth.

Panel members said there are far fewer military pilots leaving for jobs with airlines. Fewer college students say they want careers in aviation because they see it as an economic dead end, and airlines are increasingly having to compete with corporations for pilots.

The comments came as the safety board began a three-day forum on how to get more pilots and air traffic controllers to consistently strive for a high-level of professionalism. The impetus for the forum is a series of high-profile incidents over the past year in which the conduct and judgment of pilots and controllers have been called into question, including the crash of a regional airliner near Buffalo, N.Y., that killed 50 people.

The safety board said the crash occurred after the plane stalled because the pilot pulled back, instead of pushing forward, on a key piece of safety equipment. But they also cited a series of errors and unprofessional conduct by the pilot and first officer leading up to the accident.

Paul Rice, a pilot and spokesman for the Air Line Pilots Association, said he was skeptical that a willingness to break rules and flout authority among younger pilots is any different than past generations of young pilots.

However, he said he shared the panel's concern that there will be a shortage of experienced pilots at regional airlines, which account for half of all domestic flights and are the only scheduled air service to about 400 communities.

Roger Cohen, president of the Regional Airline Association, said any pilot shortage won't affect safety because pilots are trained, certified and tested.

Airline travel today is safer than ever before, but the Buffalo crash and other incidents are warning signs that safety may be eroding because of an attitude of "casual compliance" by a minority of pilots, said Tony Kern, a former Air Force lieutenant colonel and author of five books on pilot performance.
Source: AP

[j3pipercub]

If anyone knows, Tony Kern will...

Here's a solution...PAY THEM MORE!!!!!

[whissper]

In a similar vein then do people anticipate a shortage of good mechanics?

[chimbu warrior]

Please somebody tell me when this pilot shortage is going to occur.

I want to mark my calendar, just in case I am busy that day. :rolleyes:

[evyjet]

After studying all the available statistics it's almost certain the pilot shortage will start in JULEMBER!
:8

[Roxy_Chick_1989]

When I first started towards aviation, Fortune 500 Magazine had just published an article entitled "Top 10 Sure Thing Jobs of the New Millennia!" Airline pilot was on that list. I always knew flying was going to be something I'd enjoy anyway, but I'd sure like to find that columnist now.....

[Tee Emm]

If you have a spare hundred grand in your pocket you could always try REX in Wagga where they train cadets on a PPL course leading to a CPL and right seat Saab 340. It is rumoured they prefer to hire low hour cadet F/O's over experienced GA pilots.

[plucka]

I cant see how there wont be an Ag. pilot shortage in the future, probabley starting this Summer. Lots of areas with good water levels after the big Queensland rains. Alot of the companies servicing these areas wont be prepared for the higher than usual work load. Plus there aren't that many local Ag. pilots looking for work at present. I also know that the Ag. training schools haven't been doing many ratings lately. This means lots of empty Ag. seats.

If anyone has been considerering Ag. (although its not for everyone), now might be a good time to get involved.:ok:

[Captain Sand Dune]

less ethical
Noticing an increase of those coming through the ADF now. Unfortunately an aircraft doesn't care how well a redress of grievance is worded...........

Sorry for the hijack - we now return you back to your regular program.

[PLovett]

with swinburne/oxford pumping out almost 100 cpl's a year now

Serious question. Are all of those student CPLs' for Australia or are they o/s students?

[training wheels]

with swinburne/oxford pumping out almost 100 cpl's a year now.....there will never be a pilot shortage

Are you sure about that? Alot of my instructor friends at YMMB and YMEN seem to be sitting around and not doing too much flying lately.

[Tee Emm]

Alot of my instructor friends at YMMB and YMEN seem to be sitting around and not doing too much flying lately.

Precisely. Lots of instructors sitting around wishing they were in the airlines. But the airlines are full and always will be. No shortage of applicants though.

[KRUSTY 34]

With swinburne/oxford, are the graduates garrenteed a flying position at the end? If not, then it's just another sausage factory, albeit with a fancy name!

You'll always get a fair number of people lured into the game. For most, the reality will be a CPL, with perhaps a degree, and with virtually no chance of gaining employment!

The CPL holders who eventually "make it', will be the types that have always struggled to the top against seemingly impossible odds. the problem is, it is those types that are becoming rare in our Must have it now, flying is so common place world.

[hugh_jorgan]

Dont see why RFDS wont drop their mins now that they are operating 208s. Does not require a 3000hr pilot with huge amounts of night and IF experience to fly a 208 by day on the clinic runs.
For the king air and PC12 aeromedical ops, well thats another story and the mins are more than likely not negotiable.
Wonder how long it will take before the RFDS bean counters realise that they dont have to pay 95k a year for a caravan driver and start recruiting lower time guys to do the clinic runs.

As for the pilot shortage. Bring it on!

I do know that Cairns Seaplanes are currently suffering a pilot shortage. That is more to do with the fact that no one can tolerate the Gen Manager though. 7 pilots in 18 months all with the same issues with the same person. CP is all on his own at the moment and word is that he is also looking at other options.

[chimbu warrior]

As for the pilot shortage. Bring it on!

I'm still waiting.

Will it be this week?

[empacher48]

Will it be this week?

I heard from a friend of a friend's neighbour's boyfriend's uncle's pet budgie that it is in fact this week - Tuesday between 11:32 and 12:18 to be more exact. :}

[shadowoneau]

I heard from a friend of a friend's neighbour's boyfriend's uncle's pet budgie that it is in fact this week - Tuesday between 11:32 and 12:18 to be more exact. :}

The Townsville refuller recons it will be at 14:34 on Thursday.

:}

[aviation_enthus]

I heard from a friend of a friend's neighbour's boyfriend's uncle's pet budgie that it is in fact this week - Tuesday between 11:32 and 12:18 to be more exact. :}
The Townsville refuller recons it will be at 14:34 on Thursday.
Is this in UTC or EST? this is a crucial thing you know! I don't want to miss out!!:}

[Chimbu chuckles]

Look at the world around you people. PIGS/EU/UK/US and now Rudd doing his level best to wreck our economy through a desperate resources tax grab. If the UK/US/EU is not buying stuff from China then China doesn't buy resources from Australia. China can't continue stimulating artificial domestic demand (building cities no one lives in) for ever. If Govt stimulus is so bloody good for an economy then explain Greece.

The only thing 'coming' is GFC Part 2 and, thanks to our pollies, this time Australia has no ability to weather it.

[Gnadenburg]

The only thing 'coming' is GFC Part 2 and, thanks to our pollies, this time Australia has no ability to weather it.

I think Australia is particularly well placed to weather a number of economic scenarios including the current European crisis.

The worst case scenario I see is a crashing commodity demand which puts us in a low dollar, low interest rate environment. That will suit consumers and a number of areas in our economy.

On pilot demand, Australians generally now pay for endorsements and standards are modest. In combination, this will always ensure there are plenty of folks 'suitable' for filling airline seats.

[oneday_soon]

Depends what the definition of a shortage is. I think a shortage would be reflected in the hours required being reduced. I think you will see more programs like the Qantaslink Traineeship for pilots around the mark, but not quite there yet, get started up in the next few years. The 150 hour CPL just of flying school might not get a look in, but those guys with GA time around a 1000hr who might normally not get looked at, might start to get a chance earlier than expected. Just a theory.:)

[chimbu warrior]

The Townsville refuller recons it will be at 14:34 on Thursday.


What.........during Oprah? Surely not?

Who organized this?

[morno]

Dont see why RFDS wont drop their mins now that they are operating 208s. Does not require a 3000hr pilot with huge amounts of night and IF experience to fly a 208 by day on the clinic runs.

Because the level of safety is greater from an experienced pilot (in this case, greater than 3,000hrs), than a lesser experienced pilot. RFDS values their crews safety. Why do you think they moved away from charter?

Another reason, they don't want young 1,500hr pilots to stay 12 months, get a few hours, then piss off to the airlines.

Wonder how long it will take before the RFDS bean counters realise that they dont have to pay 95k a year for a caravan driver and start recruiting lower time guys to do the clinic runs.

While it's not impossible they will have drivers on lower pay doing only these clinic runs, even if that were to happen, it would still be the same requirements. Unlikely though.

hugh_jorgan,
It will be an awful long time before there is a real "pilot shortage" in Australia. Therefore, your hopes and dreams of getting into RFDS to fly their caravans so you can accelerate your career, aren't going to happen, :ok:.

morno

[eternity]

onedaysoon has a good point,

i think that the impending "pilot shortage" will be for experienced drivers. Meaning chaps (and gals) who prob have over a coupla thousand hrs.

as Krusty mentioned, there are always going to be people lured into learing to fly - but just because there is an excess of bare CPL's playing flight sim at home - doesnt mean that a proper pilot shortage will not happen.

I dont think that it will be as 'pronounced' as the last shortage because last time there were many factors all contributing at the same time.
This time round airlines (so they claim) are aware of the possibility of a lack of experienced drivers, and are taking measures (so they claim) to tackle this impending issue.

But they'll screw it up anyway - and at least for the short term those of us with experience can pick and choose where we would like to go.

[j3pipercub]

i think that the impending "pilot shortage" will be for experienced drivers. Meaning chaps (and gals) who prob have over a coupla thousand hrs.

WOOHOO!!! Tick...

Therefore, your hopes and dreams of getting into RFDS to fly their caravans so you can accelerate your career, aren't going to happen

Classic, but jorgen is probably flying one of Al's Vans in Cairns and looks across the apron and see's those gorgeous brand new glass girls and thinks 'It aint that hard'. Hell, I know I've been there, then I grew up.

j3

[ROKAPE]

Wonder how long it will take before the RFDS bean counters realise that they dont have to pay 95k a year for a caravan driver and start recruiting lower time guys to do the clinic runs.

Aim for that job and its conditions. If you had the experience and had the job would you be telling people you were over paid?

[hugh_jorgan]

Hey Morno, Just so we are clear. I have no desire whatsoever to fly caravans for the RFDS nor am I in a rush to get to the airlines. Cant think of anything worse than pressing buttons at FL300 but fully understand that my views on this will more than likely change once family mortgage wife etc etc come on the scene. j3 you could not be more wrong.

I never suggested that they should use young 1,500hr pilots to stay 12 months, get a few hours, then piss off to the airlines They are your words. I merely stated that it does not take a 3000hr pilot to do the clinic runs. You put the 1500hr figure in there. Prob a lot of guys and girls out there that would love to make a career out of the doctors and using the van as a stepping stone would be a good option.

But all this is irrelevant wasn't this thread all about the pilot shortage?

Me reckons As long as they keep letting those kiwi pilots come to our shores there will more than likely never be a pilot shortage in Australia! Might be one over there though.

[morno]

Well what sort of hours are you inferring?

[Harry Cooper]

Whether its of any relevance or interest to anyone, word is that the RFDS have had to drop their Sydney requirements quite drastically as they've just lost 2 guys with the possibility of 4 more leaving soon. Apparently guys who don't meet requirements are being interviewed at the moment. As the Sydney pilots are pushing for a better EBA (in line with Queensland) the CP is telling all that there are more than enough CV's that exceed requirements in his possession. Why are they not interviewing them then?

[Wally Mk2]

It's not ALL about hrs when it comes to the RFDS. Sure they have high mins due at times because of certain contractual requirements (out of RFDS hands) it's whether the candidate can actually fly as expected of a 2000+ hr pilot with the knowledge that goes with that level of experience. You can fly around all day in a twin in VMC with A/P on (that ain't rocket science) but when it comes to hand flying with an eng failed at night (Sim chk) is when the men from the boys are filtered out. It's not meant to be a 'cull' or make anyone feel awful it's to make sure that when the sh1t hits the fan you want the very best behind the wheel & that only comes from raw experience done the hard way:ok:
Am sure the CP has a cabinet full of CV's but few make it all the way thru to an offer, hrs is just part of it.
There will always be a turn over within the RFDS. Once considered a job for life that's no longer the case now that contracts form part of the RFDS work.
You won't however find a better more rewarding job than an RFDS pilot. It's SP ops but a huge team effort!:ok: Some of the most challenging & rewarding flying I've ever done has been with this crowd, the current crew are awesome!:ok:

Anyway to the subject heading..................not so much about a pilot shortage but a shortage of pilots, the right ones for the jobs vacant:-)


Wmk2

[Under Dog]

Harry Cooper
RFDS don't set the requirements in Sydney its the NSW Ambulance service that Does.
If you intend on applying firstly have a thorough look at the living expenses in Sydney before you do.
Do not believe the propaganda see for your self.

Regards The Dog

[onezeroonethree]

With swinburne/oxford, are the graduates garrenteed a flying position at the end? If not, then it's just another sausage factory, albeit with a fancy name!

The graduating class of 08 &09 are struggling for work from what I see and hear. From what I was told from the 09 class only 2 guys have work flying so far... the 08 class... maybe half a dozen.

Will be interesting to see when the 2011 class of about 120 students or so leaves their doors and hits the GA industry trying to find work :ugh:

Of course tho last time I was in there a few months ago they were pumping students out like there's no tomorrow and telling them it ain't that hard to find work. Big fancy name aside I could've saved about $10,000 if I did my CPL elsewhere. :sad: Money which would be of much use driving around oz right now looking for work :ok:

[KRUSTY 34]

120 students in the 2011 class alone. Holy Cr@p! There aren't that many jobs left in GA. And I'm not talking about the acceptable jobs either.

We may see a few hard lessons coming up, and I don't mean ATPL Flight planning. :sad:

[eocvictim]

Yeah, approaching your destination at 3am and realising you've missed that "prob30 fog", kind of lesson.

On the shortage, cant anyone else remember a time when there were no such thing as job adverts. You found a job by word of mouth only. Seems to me that there are a lot of jobs advertised now, surely that means something?

[The Green Goblin]

120 hey?

Welcome to the age of Hex your training. Pity we can't send them all to New Zealand :)

At least it may slow the flow coming the other way :}

[onezeroonethree]

120 hey?

About that... my year level had around 30 or so roughly... I know the 2009 first years had 3 classes for a certain subject at uni as opposed to the traditional 1 cause of the higher student numbers... so they've at least doubled if not trippled their student in-take and are probably going to increase.