Come to EK; fly 64hrs in 10days, do 2 polar crossings & cross 48 time zones

[Kamelchaser]

A colleague recently flew back to back DXB-US west coast trips, with min rest (three local nights) between the two patterns.

This was NOT by choice.

Let's look at the stats;

64 hours flying in 10 days. Almost 70 hours duty; more than an office worker who sleeps in his/her own bed every night.

Two polar crossings.

48 time zone crossings in 10 days, equating to 5hrs a day, when the body only adapts to 2hrs per day.

And if you think 64hrs in 10 days means an easy rest of the month; wrong..this pattern was carefully manipulated by rostering to ensure it straddled the end of one month and the start of the next.

So if you're thinking of coming to EK...take this into consideration if you want to keep your health intact.

[B. Bonga]

Why didn't he call in sick in between ?:confused::confused:

[vserian]

Many wanna be pilots thinks he is one hell of a lucky guy!:}

[drop kick]

quite right!

Before you join remember this, the ones who can leave are the lucky ones, if you owe money here (UAE) you can t leave. Emirates has cost me:
my professional dignity.
my wife
my children

and will cost me my liberty if I try to leave (negative equaity)

trust me.... Don t

[Payscale]

Hi Drop KIck

I am sorry for your circumstances. How has EK cost you your wife and kids??? That would mean that you chose EK over them???? :confused:

[thedick]

Why are you complaining all the time ? You joined EK voluntarily,great place to work? Now you do not like it just leave the area and EK .

[sealy101]

Can someone post their months roster so we on the outside can see how bad it is at Ek. that would help show how bad it is.

[SIUYA]

sealy101,

Can someone post their months roster so we on the outside can see how bad it is at Ek. that would help show how bad it is.

Do you want to rethink that request? Because whoever did that would immediately identify himself/herself to EK management.

[777boyindubai]

Sealy.....
Please dont equate life in the US with life here in Dubai. It isn't the same. The morons who 'run' this company have zero respect for the staff. Take sometime to read and re-read many of the EK threads on this forum. They don't honour contracts, they fire people for no reason (read about Manchester, please) No one is going to publish their roster. You have read about the pillow stupidity.....imagine if someone publishes a roster.
Fly safely!

[Willie Everlearn]

...but EK is a long haul carrier. Wouldn't you expect to fly 12-14 hour sectors?
If you're short of crew and recommending guys quit, how does that help those who stick around? Does it somehow get better because you fly the same hours with fewer crew on the same number of aircraft?
How does that work?

Inquiring minds would like to know.

[cadidalhopper]

The fewer people that come, the more valuable people that are here feel. It is the general consensus that if no one is willing to work here the more conditions will improve for those that are still here.

Don't post your schedule they will find out who you are??? You don't think they already know? Come on. They monitor your phone calls, listen on occasion..., they know who visits your home, they know what salik gates you drive through and when (better be on your way to the clinic if your on a sick call := ) Every aspect of your life is monitored as an EK employee. PPrune is probably not as anonymous as you may think. IMHO.

[yankee22]

Willie...

The issue isn't the 12-14 hour sectors.

The issue is with the way they roster the bloddy schedules. You could be doing a long haul west coast USA trip one week, and after minimal days off at home (3 days), they will send you east bound to say Australia.

Probably sounds good to some. Try it for a few months and see how your body feels going through sometimes 18-20 time zones within a 10 day period. You're body won't know what way is up.

And by doing 2 long haul trips, don't think your month is complete. Because, now is when it gets fun. The rest of your schedule will be comprised of short and maybe the odd medium haul thrown into the mix (if your lucky). They will fly your ass off for the entire month. No such thing as front loading or back loading your schedule. Expect some back side of the clock trips, some east bound trips, and some west bound trips.

It's the mix and the timings of the flights that wear you down. Sounds good on paper to those less experienced or less traveled.... but a few months of those rosters and your brain will feel like mush, your sleep patterens will be screwed and your family life will be short changed.

Oh yea... don't expect any overtime for flying these ridiculous schedules. Why?? Because they changed our overtime threshold from 78 hours to 92 hours. Gotta love a contract that is worthless and changed routinely... or should I say at their leisure.

Unfortunately, this place is getting worse by the day. Management doesn't have a clue and as far as they are concerned, ops normal.

They are in for a rude awakening.... it's just a matter of time.

[Willie Everlearn]

yankee22

Thanks for the civilized answer.

I can appreciate where you're coming from and take your valid points. Some here seem to make it more of a personal focus on ME rather than US. I'm sure (no doubt) many are ragged flying long haul expecially in conflicting directions. Fleet managers and VPs of Flight Ops AND more importantly, one of the industry leading Flight Safety Programs, Director of Flight Safety should be all over this like ugly on a pig, in a big way. BBBBBBiiiiiig way. Who's beating his ears?

I just wonder if discouraging interested parties from joining EK is to your collective benefit. I shouldn't think it is.
Additional crew would seem a quicker fix by the sound of things. I've been with carriers where fellow line pilots wind you up and when large numbers are frothing at the mouth with anger, resign in a huff, make a lateral move, only to see their mates lot in life improve once they're gone. I'm not sure that's the solution most seek. A lot of pilots you're working with probably hope many resign but only for their personal gain. To what extent or degree is this hype a wind up? Calling in tired is legitimate. Ask your FSO, FM, or VP FOps. I trust they hold valid licences and understand the medical facts for pilots we all studied when we were working on our PPLs? You can't be a world leader in training and safety if you don't practice what you preach. Right?

What I'm reading here, many are making lateral moves and not actually improving their lot in life. Remember, this industry still sucks so the number of airlines out there who actually like what you do, is very limited and few in number. So, at the end of the day, what's the perfect solution?
Spend as much time on the Jumeirah beach as possible or the Hilton.

The image EK is trying to display for sales and marketing purposes has a priority over who does what and how many they may have to do the work required. I can appreciate both sides of this. I much prefer the pilot side because they're the ones who actually move the bus from A to B and if too many decide to move buses elsewhere, EK S&M will be crying in their beer sooner than they think.

What's interesting though, is the battle EK HR must be having on the pilot recruitment side of all this.

Willie :ok:

[Jet II]

Oh yea... don't expect any overtime for flying these ridiculous schedules. Why?? Because they changed our overtime threshold from 78 hours to 92 hours.

How would being paid overtime make the schedules any less fatiguing? - or would the fatigue be acceptable with more money?

[PorkKnuckle]

Try 2 local nights.

Correct and when you get back to Dubai in the evening, that is your first local night.

Minimum Days Off after your 16hr flight (18 hr duty) ULR trip to the other side of the world is exactly


ONE.

[Rotaiva]

If they are stupid enough to make it one day as per the FTL's then who cares. That's a rule book which simply (actually - grossly complicated) which states their rostering limitations.

Only one person can determine if I have satisfactorily recovered from my previous flight(s) and that's me! I don't care a rats a^$e if they roster me to fly next day or not.

Their ridiculous rules will simply produce an increase in the SKF rate - and surprise surprise, they are!

Anecdotal story:
Visited the clinic the other day and was astounded to hear from one of the Doc's that pilots are asking them to determine if they are fatigued....:= go figure!!!

What hope do we have with this degree of cowardice... :ugh:

[Praise Jebus]

Jet II your point if a valid one regarding the effect of overtime and fatigue. AS makes this point and he believes the fatigue argument is only made because pilots not longer get paid for it. He is to a point partially correct. Working hard or more than expected is usually rewarded by money, days off, vacation or even a better car park or a desk at the window. This type of compensation allows a worker to mentally accept the demands of more work. . How do you get the kids to eat their vegetables? You offer them ice cream, it is simple psychology really. So the loss of overtime pay does result in more fatigue related complaints because there is no incentive for the worker to manage his fatigue or see anything positive in the extra work. So you have a negative attitude to the work place, your job and your employer. On another point, the lower overtime threshold was a disincentive for the company to work you above 78 hours. The lower threshold gave you more time off as you lost trips near the end of the month to get you back under 78 if possible. It also gave the company more incentive to attract extra pilots, thus keeping your roster at more survivable limits. So no, cash doesn't directly make fatigue go away but there is a correlation, if indirectly.

[Trader]

Praise Jebus--that arguement may work over the short term, say 3-4 months, but not so in the longer term. You can work 90 hours over a few months (an enjoy the extra pay when it existed) but you could not maintain that over a longer term (year).

I don't want OT pay--I want the days off to recover and be with my family.

The longer months and the issues they bring will really start to surface over the next 6 months!

[troff]

...and the OT threshold was yet another thing changed in the T+C's.

[flyinghighskyhighy]

One day, three consultants, one from EY, one from EK and one from QR, went out for a walk.
"Why don't we prove who is the best among ourselves?"
Why not, said the other two.
The EY guy said "Let's have a test. Whoever makes this monkey laugh, works for the best firm".
Being a pure logical strategist, the person from EY tried to make the monkey Laugh by telling jokes. The monkey stayed still.
As a more practical consultant, the QR guy tried to make funny gestures... No good, the monkey stayed put...
Now, comes the EK guy. Being the practical guy he was always trained to be, he whispered something into the monkey's ear, and it burst out laughing at him..
The other two were astonished. So the EY guy said "OK, let's take another test. Let's make this monkey cry!!"
So there they went again, applying the same methods as before. The EY guy narrated sad stories, the QR guy made sad gestures, and they failed again...
Then, the EK guy again whispered something into the monkey's ear and oh! It started crying, patting the EK guy's shoulder !
The other two just could not believe their eyes! So the QR guy said "OK, you've won twice. If you can win just this one, we will bow to you. Let's make this monkey run".
And he barked at the monkey and ordered him to run. Of course, it stayed where it was.. The EY guy, true to his type, pushed and prodded the monkey- still No go.
So...here comes the EK guy, again, and whispers into the monkey's ear. The Monkey just takes off! It runs and runs as fast as it can, as if it was scared to death!
The other two surrendered.
They Said: "OK, we give up.
You're the best among us, and you work for the Best firm of the three. But please, please tell us your secret," they begged him.


"Well", said the EK guy, "The first time I made it laugh, I told I work for Emirates.
The next time, I told the monkey how much I get paid ...so it started crying.
And then I told that I was here for recruitment !!!

[White Knight]

Except Troff the overtime threshold is not in the contract is it? Not that that would mean much anyway:\

[harry the cod]

42 days leave a year was also in 'the contract'!

Yes, I know it states 30 days being the minimum but why should we have to put up with that especially now that we're working harder than ever. Someone, and we never get to find out who, screws up on the numbers and guess what? Yep, we're made to suffer the consequences. But, when we screw up..........oh yes, we're still made to suffer the consequences. Gotta just love this place. Different day, same sh*t.

Still, look on the brightside. 10 reasons to be optimistic.

1) Summer is coming. (Fact)
2) Those crappy white ford focus saloon cars are in pole position to take over the audi's job.(Strong rumour)
3) No pay rise, only an increment. (My opinion only)
4) About due a sacking of a colleague for some rediculous misdemeanour (Historical data)
5) Rebranding to Emirates Asia due to the huge increase of...er....Asian cabin crew (Observation)
6) Dine on demand for cockpit crew. Available anytime before departure and after arrival. This is to enhance security and limit the opening of the FD door in flight. Any flight over 17.5 hours (summer only) is exempt. (Experience on last flight!)
7) Removal of 1 further crew member for further cost cutting, as if the greedy bar stewards havn't done enough damage taking the two off.(see point 6)
8) Cabin crew uniforms adapted to flight crew by addition of stripes thus saving uniform costs. (Always fancied a skirt)
9) After the success in Bangkok, payment to hundreds of students to wear red tshirts at further EK destinations, thus restricting us to cheaper airport hotels and saving money long term. (Call me cynical)
10) Recruitment drive to begin in earnest. All kindergartens will have a member from the selection team visit them in the classroom and describe the benefits of becoming a pilot for Emirates. 4 year olds will believe almost anything and as their attention span is so short, their interest can be maintained for the very short period it takes to describe the benefits. (Doesn't apply to locals as their list of benefits falls under the official secrets act)

Must learn to not finish a whole bottle of wine each night.

Harry

[trimotor]

The change to the overtime t/hold is significant because it allowed the company to roster well into what would have been an expensive additional cost without it costing more than a few hours flying pay -they knew the extra hours would be required, so elected to save themselves 9by rough estimate) 5 million dhs/month.

That has become the new norm and will NEVER change.

The kicker is that the 'new norm', especially on the 330 fleet, is back-breaking. Flying at that rate for a couple of months at a time is doable, even if there is not overtime, but as a regular monthly pattern is not.

It won't change though: the benefits are double -no overtime AND reduced pilot numbers required.

Cabin crew have it even worse - 140 hours is not uncommon and they get NO overtime.

[ratpoison]

4 year olds will believe almost anything and as their attention span is so short, their interest can be maintained for the very short period
Geez Harry, I thought you were talkin about locals. :p

[Rotaiva]

What is really despicable, and demonstrates to one and all the fact that they will simply say whatever they need, to justify their f#$k-ups, is the following little gem from the rumor buster site.

Kudos to whomever posted this question on the site!
The more voices that query and complain about this the better!

Rumors are circulating that the A340 will loose all of its ULR (Australia) flying this summer and the fleet will be redeployed on EK routes seving Africa, India, and Europe. Productivity pay increased from 78 hours to 92 block hours effective April 1st, 2009 because "Productivity Pay is triggered at too low a level for the existing nature of the [new ULR] routes we operate." REF: DSVPFO/L-001/FEB09 Since there will be no ULR (and few LR routes) on the A330/A340 fleet, the rumor is Productivity Pay will return to "origional contract" values of 70 - 78 block hours. - Question Posted on 25th Jan 2010

Airbus flying will be eliminated in the summer months on Australia routes. However, there is no decision to modify the hourly levels at which Productivity Pay is being earned. Regards, <the talking horse> - System Account

[Craggenmore]

1) Summer is coming. (Fact)
2) Those crappy white ford focus saloon cars are in pole position to take over the audi's job.(Strong rumour)
3) No pay rise, only an increment. (My opinion only)
4) About due a sacking of a colleague for some rediculous misdemeanour (Historical data)
5) Rebranding to Emirates Asia due to the huge increase of...er....Asian cabin crew (Observation)
6) Dine on demand for cockpit crew. Available anytime before departure and after arrival. This is to enhance security and limit the opening of the FD door in flight. Any flight over 17.5 hours (summer only) is exempt. (Experience on last flight!)
7) Removal of 1 further crew member for further cost cutting, as if the greedy bar stewards havn't done enough damage taking the two off.(see point 6)
8) Cabin crew uniforms adapted to flight crew by addition of stripes thus saving uniform costs. (Always fancied a skirt)
9) After the success in Bangkok, payment to hundreds of students to wear red tshirts at further EK destinations, thus restricting us to cheaper airport hotels and saving money long term. (Call me cynical)
10) Recruitment drive to begin in earnest. All kindergartens will have a member from the selection team visit them in the classroom and describe the benefits of becoming a pilot for Emirates. 4 year olds will believe almost anything and as their attention span is so short, their interest can be maintained for the very short period it takes to describe the benefits. (Doesn't apply to locals as their list of benefits falls under the official secrets act)

By and large this could be EZY. It seems to be all the same these days no matter which part of the world you are in or who you fly for :ouch: its depressing..!