RAFAT Future?

[Deadred]

Given the recent accident, a rapidly aging, fast fatiguing and dwindling fleet combined with massive spending cuts across defence, what are the collective thoughts on the future of the Reds?

Are they too expensive? What would the impact be if we did lose this asset?

Are there any other ac types that we could use instead?

[getsometimein]

This is from a news article, so if this thread is from someone trying to get inside info then I think they will be mistaken.

Reds cost around £6mill a year, which isn't much at all. Nimrods cost around £700mill a year until tomorrow.

There is talk about ditching the hawk as the Reds jets are quite old, and the replacement aircraft has been thought could be a turbo-prop for cost saving.

[Red Line Entry]

'a rapidly aging'

Is there some form of Dr Who style temporal disturbance around Scampton? Do people get older there quicker?...

'fast fatiguing'

Really? What's your evidence that fatigue on the Hawk aircraft (bearing in mind the Red's aircraft are rotated within the entire fleet) has increased of late?...

'dwindling'

Yes, when we lose an aircraft, it reduces our total stock - which is why we purchase attrition reserves - sensible procurement policy...


Sounds like I'm being pedantic and maybe I am...but maybe I'm trying to understand why a new poster phrases a question in such a prejorative and biased manner. As getsometimein alluded to, if you are a journalist then trawling forums such as this is a very lazy (and innacurate) way of doing a 'vox populi'.

The Hawk has an Out of Service Date (several in fact depending on the unit you are examining) and, funny old thing, the RAF realises that a decision will have to be made on its future. If you want the 'good gen' speak to the MOD, if not then read on below - us PPRuNers are good at half-arsed b@ll@cks!

My offering: a fleet of glossy red Nimrod MR2s - we've still got 9 left right?

[Deadred]

Perhaps only a little pedantic ;0)…

I was just getting at the fact that an aerobatics team must burn through the fatigue life of the hawk at a huge rate and given there aren’t that many in the fleet it might leave the Reds exposed to some difficult questions.

A synchro pair of MR2s is one display I’d like to see! Would using some of the extra typhoons we have on order be viable?

[vecvechookattack]

Just buy some new ones......

Ministry of Defence | Defence News | Equipment and Logistics | MOD signs contracts and agreements for new RAF aircraft and weapons (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/EquipmentAndLogistics/ModSignsContractsAndAgreementsForNewRafAircraftAndWeapons.ht m)

[JamesA]

I do not claim this as an original idea, it must have been suggested any times.

Financing the Red Arrows would be a small (probably tax deductable) amount for BAe (possibly the biggest beneficiary from the team, now), to pay for the return in advertising. Other companies e.g. oil, component manufacturers or anyone wanting a very prominent advertising platform could partake. How much do companies throw into Formula 1 racing? I remember reading it was in the six figures some years ago for just the side panels on a car.

Don't say the R. A. F. cannot accept money from outside sources, even in my day sponsorship was accepted from commercial outfits for sports teams. So why not now.

I know many people in mainland Europe like to watch them, it is not just a spectacle for the Brits. Keep them going.

[vecvechookattack]

Does anyone know how the RAFAT can cost as little as £6,000,000 per year? That figure seems extremely low to run a Squadron of 10 aircraft.

[Warmtoast]

While we talk of money (wanted) see how the MOD squanders what we allocate to them.

The Ministry of Defence signed the deal for a fleet of multi-role RAF tanker and passenger aircraft – which has been delayed for more than five years – without properly considering any alternative options.

See comments on the highly critical National Audit Office report out today as reported in the Guardian today here:
Audit office slams RAF's private finance initiative nightmare | Business | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/mar/30/airtanker-air-force-pfi-audit-office)

[TheSmiter]

From Gainsey Dec09

Point of Order.
"Reds to Go?" Threads are traditionally brought up in mid-March.

Pah!, Yoof, no respect. Tradition, mumble, grump......


Dude, only just made it in time! :D

Best wishes to Lingy and the rest of the team.

PS I'd be far happier to see this excuse for a Govt get disbanded than sacrifice our national AT, no matter how much they cost.

[Training Risky]

Maybe the figure of £6 mil is for the hotel accommodation, rolexes, swan-burgers, PR, more hotel accommodation, expenses etc that the RAFAT junket gets as it travels around the world?

Where do I sign?:E

[f4aviation]

In answer to a question in the House of Commons on March 17, Bill Rammell stated that several Hawk T1s are in storage for future use by the Reds. With careful fleet management there's no reason why they won't still be flying in 20 years time, funding permitting of course.

[Nopax,thanx]

Crusader to the rescue again...:rolleyes:

Express.co.uk - Home of the Daily and Sunday Express | UK News :: Red Arrows’ jets in the firing line (http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/165634/Red-Arrows-jets-in-the-firing-line)

[27mm]

From the above Express article: "It is unlikely any of the 26 replacement Hawk TMk2s on order at a cost of more than £450million will go to the team because they are desperately needed in Afghanistan."

And what does the Express know that we don't?

[Red Line Entry]

It's going to make those shows of force MUCH more entertaining....

[vecvechookattack]

there's no reason why they won't still be flying in 20 years time

Apart from the fact that they will look ridiculous

Stock Footage of Formation of vintage airplanes (http://footage.shutterstock.com/video.html?id=144433)

[The Real Slim Shady]

Why not just give the Reds a bunch of Tornados, then navigators can have the pleasure of posing in red suits.

How would you select the nav tho?

Left a bit, up a bit, right a bit?

[baby-spice]

Think it's already happened...

Initial reports from Lingy and Monty's incident speculate that the last words heard from the CVR moments before impact, was advice saying 'put it anywhere you like me old china?'

[The B Word]

The £6M per year is a bit off - this 2005 BBC article is a bit closer from my recollection...about £20M. IMHO a lot of wonga that should be spent elsewhere.

BBC NEWS | UK | Magazine | Why everyone loves the Red Arrows (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3908187.stm)

I do think that the time is rapidly coming for the RAFAT to be disbanded - surely a 4-ship of Typhoons from 29(F) Sqn worked up pre-season and then only visiting the main attractions (Farnborough, Fairford, Waddington, Leuchars, Paris, etc... up to 8 events) would be more cost effective? Just like the RAF did in the old days - 72 Sqn, 66 Sqn, 54 Sqn, 111 Sqn, 92 Sqn, 74 Sqn and 56 Sqn all provided formation aerobatic teams between 1947 and 1964.

Also, the 85-ish engineers dedicated to the Reds are a valuable commidity that we can ill afford with the TG1 shortages we have.

I would not want to see BBMF disbanded, although 5 Spitfires are a bit extravagant as well - How about the Lanc, Dak, 2 Spits, 2 Hurris and 2 Chippies as a savings measure. Only the OC is full-time aircrew and the rest volunteer their time - the 30 or so engineers could also be re-resourced for the reduced fleet size.

I am totally staggered that we are cutting front-line capability like FJ sqns and ISTAR assets and keeping these fully funded. Having read the pitiful amount of hours the pilot of the last F3 to spank had prior to his accident, it all strikes me as mis-management of priorities.

Hardly surprising that the Brown Jobs have such a derogatory view of the Light Blue is it? :ugh:

The B Word

[talk_shy_tall_knight]

Hardly surprising that the Brown Jobs have such a derogatory view of the Light Blue is it?

What, because we've got the Reds? What about all the blurdy horses and drums and trombones and geezers in big black furry hats poncing up and down the Mall day in day out. Hardly operationally imperative is it?

[Bertie Thruster]

So is the 'parliament announced' move to Waddo still on?

Perhaps the trade unions complained?

[The B Word]

talk_shy_tall_knight (or should that be talk_shy_tall_the_time? :E)

Hey, I'm pretty sure that "Geezers in Black Furry Hats" don't cost £20M a year for the same footprint of personnel. Also, they and the "Blurdy Horse" riders actually go on operations whilst still supporting ceremonial duties; sadly some never come home...here are those lost in the past year:

Lance Corporal of Horse Jonathan Woodgate from the Household Cavalry Regiment, serving as part of the Brigade Reconnaissance Force, was killed by a grenade attack on the afternoon of 26 March 2010.

Lance Sergeant David 'Davey' Walker, of 1st Battalion Scots Guards, was killed as a result of enemy fire in northern Nad' Ali on 18 February 2010.

Lance Sergeant Dave Greenhalgh, from 1st Battalion Grenadier Guards, was killed when his vehicle was struck by an improvised explosive device, near Lashkar Gah, Helmand province, on Saturday 13 February 2010.

Lance Corporal Darren Hicks from 1st Battalion Coldstream Guards was killed as a result of an explosion in the Babaji district of central Helmand province, Afghanistan on Thursday 11 February 2010.

Acting Sergeant John Paxton Amer of 1st Battalion Coldstream Guards died from wounds sustained as a result of an explosion that happened in the Babaji area of central Helmand province on 30 November 2009.

Lance Corporal James Hill of 1st Battalion Coldstream Guards was killed as a result of an explosion near Camp Bastion in Helmand Province on Thursday 8 October 2009.

Guardsman Jamie Janes, of the 1st Battalion Grenadier Guards, was killed as a result of an explosion that happened whilst on a foot patrol near to Nad e-Ali district centre in central Helmand province on Monday 5 October 2009.

Guardsman Christopher King, of 1st Battalion Coldstream Guards, was killed following an improvised explosive device explosion in the Nad e-Ali district, Helmand province, on 22 July 2009.

Lance Corporal Dane Elson from the 1st Battalion Welsh Guards was killed in Afghanistan on 5 July 2009.

Lieutenant Colonel Rupert Thorneloe MBE, Commanding Officer of the 1st Battalion Welsh Guards, and Trooper Joshua Hammond of the 2nd Royal Tank Regiment were killed by an explosion whilst on convoy along the Shamalan Canal, near Lashkar Gah, in Helmand province, Afghanistan, on Wednesday 1 July 2009.

Major Sean Birchall, from the 1st Battalion Welsh Guards, was killed in by an explosion whilst on patrol in Basharan, near Lashkar Gah, in Helmand province, Afghanistan on 19 June 2009.

Lieutenant Mark Lawrence Evison of 1st Battalion Welsh Guards died of wounds sustained in Afghanistan at Selly Oak Hospital in Birmingham on 12 May 2009.

Lance Sergeant Tobie Fasfous from 1st Battalion Welsh Guards was killed in Afghanistan on 28 April 2009.

Sadly, there are many more that will never be fit for ceremonial duties again with missing limbs and other serious injuries.

I would ajudge that these ceremonial units are "pulling their weight" - can you honestly compare them and their sacrifice to that of the Reds? :ugh:

By the way, I am not pro-Pongo, but having been to the odd PB and FOB in AFG I do have the utmost of respect for what they are doing at present.

Rant over

The B Word

[chinook240]

B Word

Thanks for adding a bit of context to this discussion.

At the risk of thread drift this struck me:

Duke of York's 'voluptuous' new equerry looks like Sarah Ferguson - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/theroyalfamily/7540301/Duke-of-Yorks-voluptuous-new-equerry-looks-like-Sarah-Ferguson.html)

[The B Word]

Chinook240

So, I guess HRH is a fan of the "Ginger Fringe" and the associated complications that comes with it then? :E

[Willard Whyte]

Hmm, when I saw RAFAT I immediately thought RAF Air Transport.

Ah, well, there's me thinking the raf had a job to do.

[talk_shy_tall_knight]

The B word

Thankfully your rant is over. It always helps to put things into context.

Thanks also for your lesson on what the Household do in theatre. Actually, like yourself I have also "been to the odd PB and FOB in AFG " and am in the business of moving the "Geezers in Black Furry Hats" around the place, while they're there. I'm not going to get into the whole business of pointing out that the Reds crews and support staff have invariably previously been to theatre, I assume that's common knowledge. Neither am I going to cut and paste any kind of list by way of a pissing match. That frankly would be just wrong.:=

If we can return to the context of my post. In response to the comment "Hardly surprising that the Brown Jobs have such a derogatory view of the Light Blue is it?" which itself was in respect of the fact that while we appear to be making cutbacks in front-line capability, we still maintain some 'ceremonial' assets, I was merely trying to point out that we are not the only ones. As regards the actual figures in £ notes that each service spends, frankly I haven’t a clue. Jets are not cheap, neither are hundreds of bloody great horses and thousands of elaborate uniforms and drums and not least the Real estate in Central London to keep them all in. Then there's the argument against how much income each brings in, does it offset the cost? blah blah.

It's an argument that has been done many times before and is pretty pointless anyway.

Finally

"talk_shy_tall_knight (or should that be talk_shy_tall_the_time? )"

No you see I've already done the joke in the username, you've effectively just done the same joke.

[Sook]

Here's the easy answer to the problem of the pilots not being on the front line! :E

PICTURES: Farnborough beckons for Italian UAV display team (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/04/01/340168/pictures-farnborough-beckons-for-italian-uav-display-team.html)

[Trim Stab]

Here's the easy answer to the problem of the pilots not being on the front line! http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif

PICTURES: Farnborough beckons for Italian UAV display team (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/04/01/340168/pictures-farnborough-beckons-for-italian-uav-display-team.html)


I would actually go out of my way to watch that - far more technically impressive and relvant than the Reds.

BAe could adapt their multi-aircraft mission system to do something similar.

[MightyGem]

April Fool, TS. :ok:

[f4aviation]

Here's some more news on the Reds:

Red Arrows to re-equip with Harriers?: key.Aero, Airshows (http://www.key.aero/view_news.asp?ID=1851&thisSection=airshow)

[bobward]

Hmm, is that pigs, sheep horses or bull***t I smell here??

[Blacksheep]

What about all the blurdy horses and drums and trombones and geezers in big black furry hats poncing up and down the Mall day in day out. Hardly operationally imperative is it?It did strike me during my last wander down Buck House way that the marching about and stamping could easily be contracted out to a commercial organisation, freeing up some soldiers for proper soldierly duties. We're not forming up in squares on the battle fields of Europe any more, so there's no need for soldiers to be dressing up in historical fancy dress for the benefit of the tourists. They're fighting men and we need them on the job.

The same goes for the RAF Regiment Colour Squadron. Very smart, but what's that all about? Silent Drill and chucking rifles about like a bunch of US Marines? Sergeant Stoneman will be turning in his grave.

[Lima Juliet]

Come on guys, it's a bit more than just stomping around - they are guarding the Queen and also some other important assets. I don't think that they use rubber bayonets just yet (but I'm sure that HSE would like them to).

http://www.rafregiment.net/images/QCSgaurdchange.JPG

Yes, we could subcontract QCS and the Guardsmen, but surely the Reds would be easier to contract out - how about "The Blades" who I think are 3/4s Red Arrows anyway? They would have to trade in their Extra 300 lawn strimmers though!

http://www.theblades.biz/photos/images/The%20Blades%20_%20Red%20Arrow177.jpg

Finally, don't forget that the aerobatic team would have no combat role unlike the Guardsmen. So subcontracting would be "simples"...

LJ :ok: