Already in the U.S. on a J1 visa - wishing to train for an FAA PPL

[Vin Diesel]

My employer is sending me to the U.S. for a period of twelve to eighteen months to learn about the operational side of our business. I am an Irish citizen so my employer, which has a subsidiary there, is sponsoring me for a J-1 visa.

During my time in the U.S. I would like to obtain an FAA PPL. I'm going to be in the North East area so I a JAA PPL (i'm only aware of Florida schools) is not an option.

However, will it be possible for me to obtain flight training whilst i am already physically present in the U.S.A on an employer sponsored J-1 visa?

I've been looking into the alien flight safety program and it seems that I need to approach a school, notify them that I would like to train for a PPL, then register with the TSA, pay a $130 fee, provide fingerprints, passport, background check etc and then it should be possible?

One thought which i'd had was that most alient flight school students would typically be Irish/English/EU nationals who are travelling to the US solely for the purposes of flight training and would be physically in the EU and obtaining their training (M1) visa at the same time as registering with the TSA, wheras i will already be in the U.S. on a J1 visa and looking to obtain flight training. i'm hoping this doesn't preclude me from obtaining authorization.

Assuming it's possible to get my paperwork in order, can anyone recommend any flight schools in the Philadelphia area? I plan on taking a while to get settled in the area, settled in my job, and then visiting a few schools to get a feel for a good school prior to starting the TSA registration process. As it seems that i will be stuck with one school once i go through the TSA process, not a problem if i pick a good one of course!

Also, i'm aware that the winters are harsh, should i assume that training is only possible for certain months of the year, due wx?

Any help gratefully appreciated!

[BigGrecian]

The J1 still exists.

It was only scrapped for flight training.

The J1 is an exchange visa so should be used for students/exchange visitors to gain experience. It shouldn't necessarily be used by an employer within business as there are other visas for this.

Your sponsor on your DS2019 will have to authorise any flight training or any study outside your field of study indicated on your DS2019. Speak to them.

You will probably find some school won't want to touch you without a visa sponsored by them as the implications of being on the wrong side of the law can be not so pleasant.

[MartinCh]

SoCal App isn't informned properly. It does happen that people may not be aware of all the visa stuff for their own country. Or simply doesn't know. No offence, but..

aviation J1 was training and instructing experience visa for 2 years max. It was finished due to haggling of US DHS, DOS etc. Long story. There's sort of patch F1 visa now, but more limiting, done by those schools that used to have J1 rights until recently.

J1 is quite wide variety of purposes and different durations depending on use.
J1 is used for au-pairs (not flying), scholar/PhD/research Uni visa for up to 3 years (again not flying), Work and Travel summer up to 4 months work visa for Uni students from abroad (not flying again), then there's the most commonly used J1 besides aupair, and that's for internship, 12-18 months. And more..

So OP probably refers to internship/work placement visa. Since it's temporary for not too long, H1 or L1 class do not make sense, as these are more permanent and 'dual purpose'. J1 is strictly non-immigrant.
So it happens when you mention J1 on PPRuNe, everyone thinks of flight training J1 straight away..

Since you have legal status in the US and you are entitled to work (albeit for one employer who sponsors your J1 placement), I do not see any problem regarding training for PPL. Just like being on F1 or H1 visas, flight training is secondary and not tied to anything.
You still have to do the TSA paperwork (presumably to check that you are not a threat to national security blah blah), though. Don't forget that.

Your legal status is not tied to M1 that is most common for flight training, so you are quite free to choose the flight school and change it should you not like it in some way. As you can suss out, JAA PPL training in Florida is kinda overpriced and of not same standards across the schools.

I don't remember details about TSA bureaucracy for changing schools. You do provide your school details on TSA website, they notify them that it's true that you're about to start with them. Then once you do the registration, fill out all the boring details about your life, addresses etc, pay the fee, you get conditional approval that is finalised once you do the fingerprints. It's cheaper and mroe hassle-free to do them once in the US. Not much of a delay. In the UK doing it in Oxford is more expensive and you have to book ahead etc. Not worth it. I was going to but then the guy travelled somewhere. I am glad I only paid 30 or 40 bucks for fingerprinting in Portland, OR, instead of about 120-150 dollars equivalent. Don't remember now.

The approval from TSA is valid for a year, for initial (PPL) training, so from final approval it's one year to get it done. Surely not a problem if you are there. I haven't looked into what to do if changing schools, with TSA, but the worst case is you pay that 130 bucks fee again. With all the flight training expenses it's nothing. It shouldn't be such pain in the back like changing a sponsor/school while on M1.

The only problem was regarding status for some when they got over on visa waiver or B1/2 tourist visa and wanted to do rating/cert issue training, towards those. That's supposed to be on M1/J1/F1, not as tourist. As tourist, people can legally hourbuild on FAA revalidation or full FAA PPL etc. So long you comply with TSA, it's not an issue if you're on work visa in the US.
Check FAQ on http://flightschoolcandidates.gov (http://flightschoolcandidates.gov/)

[MartinCh]

BigG,

I know you're involved with Florida flight training etc, but J1 as work placement and doing some part time flight training alongside, when the TSA as 'alien' done properly, I don't see what obstacle there could be on the legal side.

Sure, J1 is officially 'exchange visa', but it does involve work rights, limited depending on an individual situation, subclass. I had J1 Work and Travel in 2003. Work authorisation for 4 months max and then 30 days grace period. Sure, I was only authorised to work for the employer on the DS form.
If I went to the US on J1 internship or aupair, I'd be just fine doing some flight training.

He isn't going to work elsewhere. If he decides to go kayaking, should he ask a permission from his job sponsor? That'd be crazy.

How should he get another visa class when already having J1? That is NOT tourist visa, mind you. Just like people on H1 or with green card, can study what they want, so long they got their proper status sorted. They still have to do the TSA paperwork regardless of their status.

Can you post link to relevant US Govt information to support your opinion?

[MartinCh]

SoCall App, fair go. I guess there was wrong presumption on both sides.

I know what you mean now and agree. J1 internship is normally used during of after Uni degree or training of certain length/level and/or work experience, to broaden one's work experience by temporary stay in the US. So is the idea of it.
Not normally for temporary intracompany work experience.

Just like the WAT summer work visa, it's about 'cultural exchange'. You can bet most Polish, Slovak and people from Bulgaria, Romania or Russia didn't really care about cultural experience. It was about $$$. It was for me certainly, having saved 5 grand over summer that time (USD). But I did work my ass off for two months with crazy hours.

I suspect his employer doesn't bother with L1 purely because it's more lengthy and expensive route and the intended duration of stay doesn't correspond either. The person doing it should also have stayed with company for some time and be of importance to the US branch of the multinational, ie managerial position.
Using J1 should be workable. After all, they're going to have everything on paper, so if it's not liked by Consulate/Embassy, he wouldn't get the visa sorted.

I know of many cases when people sorted J1 visa only to work in hotel, but tweaked the 'training plan' to include different departments etc, but in the end worked as housekeeping, bar or waiting staff. That is, J1 as internship, not WAT 4 months only. So long it's done properly with paperwork, intentions may not be obvious.

EDIT: I can't see a reason his current employer (the company that wanted him there and has nothing to do with flight training, ie no conflict of interest) would mind him doing bit of flying on weekends. He wouldn't be stupid not to do the TSA, so all good. As for J1, technically the sponsor probably isn't the company itself, but one of the big agencies, ie Council Exchange, Intrax etc. I don't think they'd give a hoot so long he stays in the work he was authorised to go to.

If he left, he would get out of status and then it'd be a problem, doing flight training for PPL out of status. He wouldn't be able to change work on internship to FTO anyway.

[MartinCh]

fyi - if you paid $40 for fingerprints then you were ripped off.
You can walk into any Sheriff's Dept and pay from $0-$10 depending if they have access to their cash box.

Well, If I wanted to waste time and take local transport not knowing where, first time in the US, etc, maybe. I don't know how much we paid actually, but we paid that fee in the district court building directly, IIRC, being driven over there by one of the school staff dealing with int'l students. I read about the prices somewhere in sheriff's office wherever.

Talking about rip-offs, well, look at the SEVIS fee increase for F/M/J visa (2008-9), look at the US visa 'chat' fee, TSA fee went up as well. All together by about 150-200 dollars. Why? Hmm. Also, look at the 'enrolment fees' of some schools. It goes to hundreds. What for? We go there to spend lots of money there. The least they can do is fill the DS2019 or I-20 form and send it out. Is airport pick-up on arrival that expensive, done by staff in company car? No drop-off probably included.

[UncleNobby]

Vin D; Contact the AFSP by email, explain your situation and ask them what you require to get approved for flight training. My guess is that since you will be in the US legally, then it will be straight forward.

You will have to select a training provider and let them know you want to train there - they will most likely just say "sure no problem" but they do need to be on the list of training providers on the AFSP website - Once that is squared away complete the online application including a scan or picture of your passport plus visa documents. You will not be charged the $130 fee until the training provider acknowledges your application. Once this is complete you pay the fee, get fingerprinted and then get final approval. I've completed the process 3 times (once for private, once for IR and then for CMEL - 3 fees go figure!) and it was painless each time. They also responded to any emails I sent them in quick time (unusual for a gov agency I know!!)

As for flying in the winter time it's not an issue. Its obviously cold so you will have to be up on cold weather engine procedures (just starts really) and will need to wrap up for preflight!! But that high pressure artic air is great for engine, prop and wing performance, plus visability is awsome in the winter. Biggest concern in winter is icing and since you are training for the private then it will be VFR all the way so it's not a concern.

Go on to some US pilots websites (www.jetcareers.com (http://www.jetcareers.com) for example), introduce yourself in the forum and ask about schools in the Philli area. Google Flights schools in Philidelphia and compare prices, fleet etc. If you were coming to Boston I would be of more help in that regard. its a good idea to go out there and visit schools and kick the tyres before choosing. Getting clearance from AFSP should not take long once you decide to go for it. You are not necessarily married to the flight school but would have to reapply and maybe get charged the $130 if you change (don't quote me on that one).

Good luck - it's great fun,
Any questions just ask.
Kevin.

[lilpilot]

Don't need a "student" visa if you do less then 20 hrs of flight training per week, also not needed for time building. So in your case you don't need to establish status beyond the J1. Once you settle in Philly visit all the surrounding airports to find the right school for you. www.runwayfinder.com (http://www.runwayfinder.com) will make it easy. Then you get the TSA clerance. Don't hesitate to ask your american collegues either, there's a good chance there might be a pilot amongst them or they know someone...

[BigGrecian]

Don't need a "student" visa if you do less then 20 hrs of flight training per week,

Be EXTREMELY careful about this.

Just because you are not flying 20 hours a week it doesn't mean that your not studying 20 hours a week.

IMPERATIVE you read and if you don't believe get in writing from US Immigration saying this.

http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/386029-faa-flight-training-visas-concern.html#post5211780

[humhaw]

Hi,

I am in a similar position to the OP. I have a L1-A visa and am currently employed with a company here in Massachusetts - the visa is valid until April 2011.

I have started the training application per the Alien Flight Student Program on the TSA website and entering a L1 visa is an option there although I havn't actually completed the application as I have yet to select the training school...

I have contacted a training school I am interested in but they did not know...their response is (verbatim)
Unfortunately we can’t use TSA as a guideline as they only care to see that you do not pose a threat to national security, not that your visa will permit flight training. I know it sounds backwards and it always causes a bit of confusion for potential students. In doing my own search I could not find any information from the Dept of State, USCIS or the Federal Register that deals with studying or flight training on an L1.

So anyone here know for sure whether I can pursue PPL training in the US while on a L-1A? If you do know, can you provide the source?

Many thanks in advance for reading and any replies.

Regards,
Humhaw

[humhaw]

Hello SoCal App,

Thanks for the response. You see I am getting conflicting information from different schools...some are saying I can't, some I can and some just don't know. I've checked with all schools who do JAA (A) and (H) here in the US - not all have got back to me yet though.

I have sent off a query to my visa lawyer, the TSA and USCIC so hopefully one of them will be definitive.

I hope you're right and what you say makes sense to me but I was hoping to find some certain reference stating that it was actually legal to flight train on a L-1A... just because I can't find anything in the rules stating that it's not illegal isn't quite the same is it?

BTW, I won't face any problem with company policy. It's a JAA (H) PPL I am looking to train for so Bristow Academy in Florida seems to be only one for me. My intentions long(ish) term will be to fly in Europe/Ireland.

Thanks & regards,
Humhaw

[humhaw]

That which is not defined as being illegal - is by definition legal. Okay, I take your point SoCal App. And yes perhaps I am making too much of this. I certainly hope so but to put my mind at rest I am looking for some statement or documentation from someone in authorithy. Also some of the schools have come back saying that I would need to cancel my L1-A, saying that I can only go for training on M1 (or F1)....which makes no sense to me, it was difficult enough to get the L1-A in the first place and I intend keeping it! There seems to be a lot of ignorance on this or else they are just not bothered...probably a bit of both.

How will you undertake flight Training in Florida if you are based and working in Boston?I will take leave of absence from my company for the time of training. They won't be paying me put I will still legally be an employee thus my L1-A remains current.

[humhaw]

Let me fill you in on a few more details...

By the time I take the leave of absence I will have worked 18 months with the company here in the US. I intend to study for a PPL (H) or PPL (A) during my leave of absence and then return to my employer until my 3 year L1 expires or indeed is extended based on my personal position and company's needs.

[Jarvy]

Humhaw, I was untill last week in the US on an L2 (my wife was the L1 holder and we have now got green cards) and was going to train for a FAA CPL (H). I already have a CAA CPL(H) and it was not a problem with the either the school, the FAA or the USCIS.
I say was, it may still happen, I'm just having problems with the medical.
If you want more info I can give you the name of a helicopter company down here in Connecticut who can give you very good advice.
Feel free to PM for further details.
Jarvy

[Jarvy]

SoCal App, agree with you about the leave of absence, I should have read the question better. It would be ok to do this in his vacation time but not as a leave of absence because of the conditions of his visa.
Maybe humhaw should consider doing a FAA CPL(H) locally along side continuing to work thus maintaining his visa.
Jarvy

[humhaw]

Jarvy, SoCal App - thank you for the replies. I am actually considering a FAA one locally as well now. I will probably hand in my notice at the job should I persue the full time CAA training. Thanks again.

[humhaw]

I understand that SoCal App about the L1 visa being no longer valid and the need to subsequently get a M1.

Thanks for the interest but I don't have any real intention of working with the parent company again should I had in my notice here in the US. BTW, it's an Irish not a UK company.

[flyhelico]

no problem to get your training done in the USA.
you can even be trained by an independent CFI in a local FBO.

all you need is to prove to your instructor:

1.you are accepted by the TSA
2. you are legal in the USA.

the CFI will keep passport and TSA number for 3 years.

now CFIs have to work as DHS officer. which really make me laugh, how do you know if the guy is legal or not...?? can you recognize a fake passport?

[peda126]

Hi guys,

I'm in the states on an L1-B visa an want to learn how to fly.
I read this thread and i am in a similar position like "humhaw".

Would the TSA approve me with a L1 visa and is it legal?
I'll still work for my company, i plan to take lessons after work an on weekends.

thanks for your help

[peda126]

What details need the TSA?
Is a copy of my visa in the passport enough or do they need the whole application forms for my visa?