Need info, dyed kerosene.

[MrEdd]

I need some info regarding dyed kerosene.
I have been told by someone that it´s illegal to use for helicopter operations, but he can´t show me where it says so.

I have read thrue the MD500 flight manual (what we fly), talked to FAA reps and other turbin engine related compaines. Witch all say´s it is ok to run. But my collegue claims a guy lost his licens due to running it.
Were just looking into doing the right thing here.

So i though I´d throw out a fishhook here and see what i catch.

[chopjock]

Where are you based? It's not illegal here in the UK. But be careful that it does not have any anti icing additives.:O

[MrEdd]

I´m based in USA, and no I don´t like the anti ice stuff either.
Well if im not very far south or really far north that is. ;)

[wulfman76]

I've been told that it will degrade the coatings applied to the metals in the hot section.

Same deal though, cant find any official statement saying this.

I'd like to know if its the dye itself, the sulfur or what? I was also told that kerosene, diesel and jetA are all basicaly the same....go figure.

[Brian Abraham]

The 500 TCDS calls for,
MIL-DTL-5624, Grade JP-4, and JP-5 Aviation Fuels
MIL-DTL-83133 Grade JP-8 Aviation Fuel
ASTM D-1655 Jet A, A-1 or Jet B
ASTM D-6615 Jet B
Chinese Specification GB6537-94 Grade RP-3
See “Rotorcraft Flight Manual” for alternate fuels.
See “Note 6” for Anti-Icing additive.
See “Engine TCDS E4CE Note #9” for emergency use mixtures and limits.
Note: Fuels containing Tri-cresyl-phosphate additives shall not be used.

NOTE 6. For all operations below 40º F ambient temperature all fuel, except MIL-G-5572 (Aviation Gasoline), must contain anti-icing additive conforming to MIL-I-27686 in concentrations of 0.035 per cent by volume minimum 0.15 percent by volume maximum. See Rotorcraft Flight Manual for checking concentrations and blending.
The TCDS is prefaced by,
This data sheet, which is part of Type Certificate No. H3WE, prescribes conditions and limitations under which the Product for which the Type Certificate was issued meets the airworthiness requirements of the Civil Air Regulations and, where specified, the Federal Aviation Regulations.
Not a lawyer, but would suggest if you don't comply with the flight manual, which will contain the above info, you're looking for trouble should the unthinkable occur. Particularly in the good old litigious US of A.

[fling-wing_1]

Be careful using dyed fuel. Had an acquaintance have a flame out from using dyed diesel. The heat caused the dye to clog up the fuel nozzle then - poof!!! :\ Kind of ruined his whole day. :{

[bbrunton]

At one time I heard something about here in the USA they were dying either deisel or Jet A, not sure which. I think Deisel.

The reason I was told was that over the road truckers were using jet fuel because it was cheaper and was not paying any road taxes.

I have no supporting evidence so take it or leave it....



Bill

[Hedge36]

Diesel thread drift:

We've got red and green diesel at the pumps. The red is for equipment and the green is intended for road vehicles.

While there's a difference in the price (I haven't studied it, but I'm pretty sure the difference is the tax rate), I'm fairly sure that the green stuff is supposed to be of the low-sulphur variety. This is California, after all.

The only reason I noticed this was the Bobcat was running out of fuel over the weekend. Perhaps someone else has some specifics. So my guess is that your pals are running the red (equipment) fuel in the green (highway) vehicle.

Aside: when I was a kid we'd buy 1,000 gallons of heating oil for the Kenworth to avoid highway excise tax.

This drift and slightly babblish post brought to you by the smoky wonders of Lagavulin.

[mad_jock]

There is other differences between motor fuel grade and aviation Jet A.


The motor grade has something like 128 different things added to it from lubricants for the valves of the production plant, to anti fungals, Then there are additives for combustion flame fronts in the engine etc etc.

Jet A has another load of additives but different ones. If you want to run Jet A in your car stick a couple of quarts of 2 stroke oil in the tank every fill other wise you engine will die after a couple of thousand miles running on it.

As for using motor grade in an aviation engine?

Gawd knows its proberly like most things you will get away with it in a once off get the old girl home requirement. Start using it every fill its going to bite your bum hard.

[rick1128]

It is my understanding that the dyes are used is differentiate between highway and off road fuels for tax purposes.

[Dantruck]

rick1128 is correct. Dyes are inert to the fuel, and are only there to identify automotive fuels for tax purposes...most typically red dye is added to diesel fuel intended for agricultural or other non-highway uses, such as to power night heaters. But non of this has anything to do with aviation. While Kerosene, Jet A1 and diesel are similar, ie: they are an oil-based distillates from the same 'cut' of the barrel, they each are given individual additives to suit the use. You cannot, for example, expect to run a biz jet on diesel. Remember, these fuels are not just fuel to make you go. Each has a lubrication and a cooling job to perform, also, specific to the type of engine and its various pumps, valves, etc. That's the part you'll be messing with. Here endeth the lesson!

[jim63]

You cannot, for example, expect to run a biz jet on diesel. Probably a wise choice there,but you CAN run Jet A in a diesel truck.Lots of times I would fill up with the fuel after fueling the helicopter at the end of the day.

The red diesel is non taxable fuel for ag,farm and the likes.Out here in Ca. they routinely check the fuel tanks on over the road trucks at scales and roadside inspections.BIG,BIG fines if caught.

[kev_laline]

That Lagavulin smells a helluva lot better than any helicopter fuel. Tastes good too.

[MrEdd]

Brian A

Yeah I read thrue that to, but on the other hand so does the Allison book state that Kerosene is an accepted fuel.
If there is any restictions/not legal I start thinking it's tax related or such. But then I would guess it would not be stated in Far or flight Manuals, but rather in DOT.

[fling-wing_1]

Way, way back when I helped oversee a fuel farm, one of the gents from Chevron informed me that Jet A, kerosene, home heating oil, over the road and offroad diesel all came from the same tank at the supplier. The difference was the additives added at the manifold as it was pumped into the trucks. For example diesel would have dyes and lubricants added while Jet A was basically pure.

We ran home heating oil for years with no problems. Ran it in the vehicles too, just added a bit of marvel mystery oil at each fillup. :E

[Brian Abraham]

but on the other hand so does the Allison book state that Kerosene is an accepted fuel
Edd, would like to see the verbatim quote and the reference manual. Also note that it is the aircraft manufacturer who decides what is acceptable, not the engine manufacturer (though of course they do talk to each other) and requirements will be so quoted in the flight manual. If its not in the flight manual its no, no, despite what you may find in other documents.

You need to be very careful of using the term kerosene because the term can cover a wide range of products. The following are the fuel specs as called for in one particular helicopters flight manual.
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m56/babraham227/a0039.jpg
You will note that #3 calls for Kerosene. But the requirement is for it to meet the specifications called out in ASTM-D-1655 JetA (Standard Specification for Aviation Turbine Fuels). A drum of the stuff from Wal-mart made for your camping equipment will not comply.

Fuels are required to meet certain specs, and even then you can run into trouble, as one New Zealand airline found out. The particular batch of fuel lacked the necessary lubricity properties, and the FCUs were giving up the ghost, resulting in engine failures. Was found the fuel specs did not adequately address lubricity issues.

[albatross]

I have been a lotta places where everyone -trucks, houses, planes helicopters all burned Arctic Diesel out of the same bowser.
It was either that or wait for the next sealift.

On an aside I seem to remember that the Garret engines (SP?)on a Shorts Skyvan demonstrator I saw in the mid 70's had the longest list of alternate fuels I have ever seen. I think PT6s have a goodly list too.

[Pandalet]

A minor data point:

I believe Alouette 2s can be run on heating kerosene (according to their PoH), so long as you do something to filter out the excess water. An extra stage on the output of the bowser suffices for this.

[Brian Abraham]

I have been a lotta places where everyone -trucks, houses, planes helicopters all burned Arctic Diesel out of the same bowser.
I'm well aware of what goes on in the back blocks but the OP was asking what is legal. If you say diesel is legal please put up the regulators approval.
I believe Alouette 2s can be run on heating kerosene (according to their PoH), so long as you do something to filter out the excess water.
I believe doesn't cut it, show us the authorities approval. We all know the damn things will run on anything, coal dust slurry if need be, and perhaps wood chips, it just aint legal.

[crop duster]

Our crop dusters are certified to use jet a, kerosene, or diesel. Kerosene works great and has a lower sulfur content than jet a to keep toxic fumes to a minimum when using in homes for heat. It is usually very clean like jet a but is not strictly monitored because it's not intended for air craft use. Diesel is a great fuel on one hand because you get more BTU's per gallon which equates to more power. The down side is it's filthy dirty. Here in Louisiana our diesel comes on barge up the Mississippi river and it's terrible. I don't know about other parts of the world but we only use it when all other sources have been exhausted.

My biggest concern using diesel is all the foreign matter that tends to clog filters and fuel nozzles if it were to get past the filters. Just my $.02 worth.

barryb

[Brian Abraham]

crop duster, be interested what approval you have to use diesel. Aviation fuel specs call out purity ie limit on foreign matter, so where did you get approval to use your dirty Mississippi barge fuel from. Can't see the FAA giving it a tick.

[Pandalet]

I don't have access to an Alt2 PoH, or (for that matter) an Alt2, so I can't confirm this. Hence 'I believe'. Since nothing I'm rated for or have access to currently uses anything other than AVGAS, my interest in the matter is purely curiosity, and I have no reason to offer definate proof. I simply provide information I'm aware of as a possible lead to anyone who may have more interest than I do.

So:
I believe (there's that phrase again) that it is legal, under some jurisdictions, based on the PoH, to run an Alt2 on heating kerosene, provided you filter out the excess water. As far as I'm aware (with no particular proof), this is not legal on the G register, but can be done on some other European regs. I only know of this being done for private ops, not for commercial ones.

[B540]

As I recall, the Lama (Artouste IIIB engine) could use diesel all day long. The only restriction was for low OAT, something like -5 C.

[eagleskinner]

Way back when...

The English army dyed Avgas with a purple dye to prevent us 'orrible tech types and other ground handlers filling our cars with it. If you were ever caught driving through camp gates with a purple exhaust, you were very soon making acquaintance with the monkeys.

Funny thing is, the only person I knew who got caught was a peelow.

I wonder if they still do?

(P.S. I know you were talking kero, I wonder if it could be dyed for a similar reason)

[crop duster]

crop duster, be interested what approval you have to use diesel. Aviation fuel specs call out purity ie limit on foreign matter, so where did you get approval to use your dirty Mississippi barge fuel from. Can't see the FAA giving it a tick. Fuel: Jet A, Jet B, JP-4, JP-5, Automotive Diesel Number 1D or 2D in accordance with
UACL Service Bulletin Number 1344. (If jet fuel is not available, aviation
gasoline, MIL-G-5572, all grades, may be used for a maximum of 150 hours
between overhauls.) Automotive diesel fuel is approved only for agricultural
application flights and only when the free air temperature is above:
+20oF for Grade No. 1D
+40oF for Grade No. 2D
as per Type Certificate

[crop duster]

Way back when...

The English army dyed Avgas with a purple dye to prevent us 'orrible tech types and other ground handlers filling our cars with it. If you were ever caught driving through camp gates with a purple exhaust, you were very soon making acquaintance with the monkeys.
Not sure about UK but in US fuel has always been dyed to identify octane rating. Seems like the purple was 115/145 octane

[ericferret]

We had a Hughes 500 owner who ran on red diesel. When we dropped the EDP fuel pump filter the water tidemark was 50% up the side of the filter. The 45 degree angle of the engine did not help as the water tended to migrate to the bottom of the filter bowl and stay there. I wondered how long it would be before the water level rose to the fuel outlet point.
In addition the fuel dye stain was there for all to see on the filter!!!!!! Image the effect of a steep nosedown which caused a slug of water like that to suddenly enter the fuel system.
Engine out warnings and a horrible silence from the hot bit at the back!!!!!

Commercial diesel can have a very high water content, storage and transport conditions are less stringent than aviation fuel.

[snotcicles]

If you are running diesel or kerosene instead of jet fuel to save money, the amount of $ savings will be only a small fraction of the cost of the RR250 bills that will be coming down the line. Clogged fuel nozzle = poor spray pattern = burnt combustion liner and nozzles.
Arctic diesel is closer to Jet A but unless you really know which fuel you are getting I would stick with good ol' jet fuel.

[elro]

As I recall, the Lama (Artouste IIIB engine) could use diesel all day long. The only restriction was for low OAT, something like -5 C.
The OAT restriction for using Diesel in the IIIB is no lower then 0°C.

[topendtorque]

ran a heap of avtur through an old grader once about fifteen years ago. a cat 12E-21F. After about a 120 hours it cost me about 4 and a half grand to fix the donk.

others reckoned that I should have thrown some oil in with it.

Others also reckon that you should throw a bit of standard petrol in with diesel when the avtur is running low. Me I think I'll just buy a bit more avtur.

there's an old bush ballad that's been bastardised a bit here is oz, one line is;
"Have you ever bin on the kerosene,
when the metho's runnin low?"