What is wrong with everyone?

[scoot43]

Hi.
I've been reading through these forums for the past few years on and off, and each time i do i tend to find myself thrown into a world of unbelievable resentment towards the airline industry, and, anyone about to enter into it.
You don't have to be a genius to work out that the industry has suffered, and is still suffering hard from the recession; and that odds of employment a couple of years ago sharply dropped to a figure which would make anyone who entered into flight training in 2007/2008 lose a fair deal of sleep over their future employment prospects.
You also don't have to be a genius to realise that £80,000 is alot of money to "invest" into ones future ,and I'm not denying it is a huge financial risk entering into training without a guaranteed job at the end. Obviously everyone is different; some people will have the money to put upfront, others will have to secure it to a property etc. but for god sake, have some respect for them. It seems to me that the people replying to alot of the threads are either people who wern't able to make it onto a course, or who cannot qualify for the amount needed to fund their training, and it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't make it due to their cynicism and general bad attitude towards the industry itself.
it's no secret that FTO's are out there to take your money, they're a business, but not everything they do is a conspiracy against you.
I suppose my overall point is fairly simple. If you want to become a pilot, then do it. work hard and take the risk. I weighed the options, and decided to go ahead with my training. If you don't want to become a pilot, then don't train, and certainly don't go around the 'wannabe' forums complaining about the costs and conspiracies of FTO to steal you of time and money, because it's a waste of everyones time.


Thanks.

[ricky81 sti]

I have to agree to an extent, I've never wanted to do anything but fly and i've worked hard over the years to save the money to allow me to go and do my flight training which i had always thought would be an integrated course.
Although due to the wealth of experience and knowledge of some of the guys on here i decided there was no rush to spend 100k on a 14 month course based on the current climate but to go ahead at a slower pace with a modular course with the intention of being ATPL'd up in 2012 with no debt and maybe some tokens left over for a type rating if i'm lucky enough.

So i agree with you from the point of view that if you want it go for it but i'm greatful for the points of view and advice of so many on the site which helped me make my overall decision.

[mad_jock]

I apply the philosophy that you treat other people how you would want treated yourself.

So as I want people to tell me if there is a high chance of me screwing up my life financally for years to come I will continue putting my view forward.

[flyprototype]

most pilots will be out of the rat race after 2-3 years when they will discover they have to:

relocate for a job, look for a job for 1-2 years, pay to work, build time, give up 9-5 jobs, no family life, pay more money for training, rating, pay for selection tests, pay more and more to stay current, have a bad life, wake up at 3 am, fly at night, fly in the cold,...

did you know that 50% of privat pilot give up flying after 4-5 years!

how many give up with a CPL?

[JB007]

Totally agree, with mad_jock

WWW described wannabe's recently as a Wannabe Zombie Army. Its very fitting. A few of us on here post with experience, I myself started training in 2000 and when 9/11 collapsed the industry in 2001, I will never forget having to be honest and putting the 'brakes on' both my enthusiasm and my chosen future and returning to a day job that 18 months previous, had decided I was ready to move on from!

In 2010, I have been made redundant from a large UK airline - along with 120 other B757/B767 and B737 rated pilots, most of us with all types. I've been very lucky, I found employment very quickly and as a wake up to wannabes, i'm joining a UK airline that already has a hold pool of pilots that have passed the selection process, but who are inexperienced and untype-rated! They are all still in the hold-pool!

I wouldn't want to step on anyones dream but realism has to play a huge part, the training world in itself is a mine field and on these pages you have access to people such as myself and mad_jock who are doing the job on a daily basis and are more aware than the average wannabe and flight training organisation's commercial department what the scoop is. The fact is Scoot43, at the moment, you will hear the stark reality of what is going on and wannabe's don't like it!

I've proved it - there is no place in the present industry for zero experienced frozen ATPL holders (unless you want to pay even more...), but the Wannabe Zombie Army keep marching on...

JB

[PPRuNeUser0173]

Dont they just - and most of them think they will be lucky and land the dream job - its unbelievable. I know that the lottery says you have to be in it to win it but all that money and effort will not open doors for you. Sadly the current climate means a distinct lack of jobs and I know of one airline that has two thousand cv's!! Its a very long queue.

[flyboy1818]

I could not agree more with this post, there is also plenty of bitter procrastination on these forums which causes things to seem even more grim! However there is much truth on these forums, but I often feel that you need to work in the industry in some capacity to differentiate the bs from the truth. If you want to trainand become a Pilot sit down and figure out a way to do it, its still acheievable to a hard working individual without getting into stacks of debt. The European labour courts, a future national scandal along with supply and demand will see an end to the madness eventually or so we hope!

[tigermagicjohn]

No it is not negativity, it is reality!
I think some of the "negative" posts are just to make people aware - it is a long and hard road, and maybe you should consider a cheaper option then the £100.000 Zero to Bankrupt Hero, as to many people are naive, and without proper foundation for what they start.

Be prepared to keep your ratings, do other work for few years, and maybe dont expect the golden gates to open straight away.
Have a sober plan, still this will not secury you anything, but at least it can help you to avoid complete ruin!

For me it seems to many want to get into a shiny jet straight away, maybe more should lower they initial expections a bit more, and maybe get some more life experience first!

Be prepared to loose the money the training will cost you, and the money to keep yourself current! And maybe the upturn will come in the end, maybe it won't, we never know.
But now all can see, nothing around! Maybe next year!

[Concorde14]

I respect this forum greatly for the insight it provides into the current state of the market, but the way it often descends into infant school tit for tat simply highlights the maturity of those contributing and for me, thats what i don't understand about this forum especially as its for wannabe pilots.....

Everyone knows its rubbish out there, but there is a way to discuss this in a mature manner, there is no need for personal, overtly blunt sentiments. Yes be direct but also be respectful of people's individual situations.

Yes anyone who blindly signs up to a £100k training contract in the current market clearly hasn't researched enough and is a fool but thats their own stupidity.

However, for those that still want to do this as a career contributors should have faith that they will go about their training in a calm, financially controlled manner. If they don't, based on all that they read on here, then they are naive beyond belief.

All i'm saying is yes its negative at the moment, but some positivity wouldn't go a miss from time to time. And before anyone jumps down my throat in saying there 'isn't anything to be positive about', lets all just remember that this is and always has been a cyclical industry. And if people are mature enough to post on here, meet them with mature replies.

All the best to all.

Regards

Concorde 14.

[mad_jock]

So you don't have a problem with what we say now. Just the way we say it?

So we now have to be fluffy feely and respect your thin skin?.

Once your flying the line your not going to get that.

Whats this bollocks these days with youngster that if they don't like what your saying to them they say your not respecting them and your being immature. Is it a deflection method which is taught at school. Just face facts we don't respect you, couldn't give a toss if your ego is bruised.

So if you read a post which disagrees with your opinion and you feel disrespected. Dry your eyes nobody really gives a toss.

[Lt. Goose]

I think a stark realisation is needed. Not just on this thread, but all over this place (apart from the Flight Testing section - no one seems to be bothered there):ok:

You're talking to someone who is going through training as we speak, and I admit this is NOT and in NO WAY NEAR the time to start training further than a PPL.
I had a choice to go to university AND train, don't go to university train or don't train at all. At the time, the first option was the most appealing - and I bit into that apple...

Nearly two years into the course and I hold a PPL and have done my ATPLs, due to start CPL in June. At this relaxed pace, I should hold a fATPL and a BA(Hons) near the end of 2011.

Do I really think this will get me right hand seat? Maybe in a car.

I don't think, within the next 4 years, that any of this is going to change. Yes, I will hold a degree and all the necessary licences - but no airline will give a :mad:. I'm a low hours pilot, so what?

Back to my point. People like WWW need to say what they're saying. If not, half the wannabes on this forum (like me) would be lulled into a false sense of security. I've heard it all before, "By the time we're finished, the market will be gagging for new pilots" Yeah...whatever... I probably could afford the rest of my training if I had a penny for every time someone has said that one to me!*

After all, if none of us noobs were around to start these "OMG OMG OMG!!! there's a light at the end of the tunnel!!" threads, then people such as mad-jock and WWW would have no need to tell us the grim truth of this industry.

I honestly think that they're trying to help us, and anyone who decides against their advice could be classed as a fool.

But hey! Eventually somebody, somewhere will need a pilot!





*Obviously I couldn't. Unless, of course, the training cost me like...8 of these so called pennies...

[Concorde14]

Ah....a lovely reply to further illustrate my point. Thank you.

Regards

Concorde 14

[mad_jock]

Enjoy your warm milk when mummy tucks you up in bed Concorde

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Lt. Goose - I'd be interested if you expanded slightly on the education/flight training route you are on. It sounds interesting and I'd like to learn more about this growing route.


Back to my point. People like WWW need to say what they're saying. If not, half the wannabes on this forum (like me) would be lulled into a false sense of security. I've heard it all before, "By the time we're finished, the market will be gagging for new pilots" Yeah...whatever... I probably could afford the rest of my training if I had a penny for every time someone has said that one to me!*

After all, if none of us noobs were around to start these "OMG OMG OMG!!! there's a light at the end of the tunnel!!" threads, then people such as mad-jock and WWW would have no need to tell us the grim truth of this industry.

I honestly think that they're trying to help us, and anyone who decides against their advice could be classed as a fool.


Its commentary and Private Messages like this which keeps me performing this role over the years. There is a relentless and well funded propaganda machine spinning a pro-training message to Wannabes. The Flight Training Industry and the Employers all have a vested interest in keeping an oversupply of new pilots. Against this slick, funded wall of spin there's not much outside of PPRuNe that is willing to tell Wannabes the truth without spin.

Hence in 2005 I was on here telling Wannabes that this was a Golden Age for Wannabes and that CTC was the mutts nuts and Integrated was the best way to grab a jet job fast! But by summer 2007 I was being labelled a gloom and doom monger armchair economist pessimist for warning of a house price crash, major recession and airline bankruptcy. When the facts change then so does my opinion. The 'industry' though will ALWAYS tell you its the ideal time to train. They're bastards like that.

You are a commodity to these people. Wannabes are often young (under 30) and haven't (sorry to patronise) had many lessons in how the big bad world actually works. That. And that alone is what sparks me into pumping out posts here. Trust me, it doesn't make me popular, make my life easier or gain me anything other than the occasional word of thanks.

At the moment I'm turning more bearish than I have been for the past 3 months. I think Greece is going to turn into a contagion, UK credit rating is going to loose its AAA status and a double dip is in the pipeline.

The Olympics could be quite a low key affair next time.


WWW

[Lt. Goose]

Sure thing!

It's basically run between Cabair, that reputable training organisation :ok: and Bucks New University (not my first choice uni, but the only one to run this type of course at the time).

As quoted from the university:

"The degree in air transport is designed for those students who wish to obtain a recognised degree in air transport management with a view to pursuing a career in the airline and airport industry. It is particularly aimed at those wishing to qualify as commercial pilots. The BA (Hons) Air Transport with Commercial Pilot Training degree reflects the changes inherent in the dynamic aviation industry and prepares students with the skills and knowledge required to work within the aviation field."

I think they're beating around the bush. If you can't get a job as a pilot, do something in the industry to bide your time is what I think they mean!:ugh:. I'm not sure how well this will ACTUALLY work though, but that's life.

To break the course down, you spend the first year at university campus in High Wycombe... Doing assignments as well as training for your PPL (15hrs only). At the end of that year you buzz off to Florida for a month to complete your PPL. The next year is spent at Cabair's Bournemouth or Cranfield locations for your ATPLs for 6 months - pretty boring stuff. Then, once again you're shipped off to the US of A to hours build as so many do before returning to Wycombe Air Park or Bournemouth to gain your CPL. By this time it's two years after starting your course and you're going back to uni to do the serious work!
After that year, you do your IR and MCC in the summer with Cabair and voilà you've got a job! (Or so they say)


Back to the point of the thread... ummmm....likee....err.... I hope the economic situation gets better? Yeah. That'll do.:cool:

[JohnnyPharm]

WWW

I'm not a financial man, can you explain the difference between a bull and a bear?

Cheers

[JohnnyPharm]

Concorde

TBH, I think there is a class of people who just like baiting other individuals for the sake of it. They like lighting the the blue touch paper and retiring. Pesonally I enjoy watching a good online scrap taking place, and these pages provide ample opportunities to do it. Some of the blunt comments directed at individuals have me in stitches, yes I know the p in pprune stand for professional but some of the some are real classics. Keep up the good work boys.

[fanda78]

I'm not posting very often - usually when I need to ask something as you would expect from someone doing his/her ATPLs...

... yes industry is not in great shape (I work in it last six years)
... yes everyone wants to be pilot
... yes prospects are not great

... but it seems to me that all these negative comments are coming from "want to be FO" trying scare away any possible competition
... from FOs who spent fortune for their training (as I am doing) and are too worried of any possible competition as they do not feel secure in their current position...

cheers FrankO

[tigermagicjohn]

I think what people are trying to say is, based on experience - sure go for it, but don't expect to be get a job straight away as an FO on a big shiny jet.

Make sure you can manage to survive for few years after you have your CPL and IR, because it migth take you 3 - 5 years before you even get a sniff at a proper job.

On the other hand, if you have more money then sense, you probably would not be on these boards seeking advice anyway!

There will be jobs, but not to many for low hours newbies, but where there is a will there is a way.

I have seens flight schools, where the instructors are still working after few years now, that is a bad sign for jobs, as they normally are regulary fed to airlines as they improve their experience and hours. Just not happening now, thats not scaring anyone, thats a fact.

Accept that you might not be able to work as a professional full time pilot for a few years after finished training, if you can survive that, I guess you will be fine! If you have to much debts, you will not be around when the upturn comes, because you will not have been able to stay current, or /and not able to pay for TR if required with job offer!

WWW does not need to fear any of us newbies, nothing for him to gain by BS everybody!
Pretty paranoid to believe there is a conspiracy on PPRUNE to scare away potenial newbie threaths, think you might have been watching to much X - files! :E

[Paul Stott]

Mad Jock
You do seem pretty bitter about the industry but all industries are ****** right now. If you dont like it go do something else and stop whining. WWW it is good to warn people against the marketing bs but same again stop bleating on about it. Perhaps you didnt do as well as you hoped because of your whiney attitude and inability to cope in a crisis

[mad_jock]

No far from it Paul

I am quite happy doing what I do and I get payed a reasonable amount to do it as well.

And inability to cope in a crisis yep thats what airlines do on Command courses and all LPC/OPC's they put people who can't handle crisis in charge of the hardware.

H'mm so I get accused one min of being blunt and disrespectful then the next of whining. You can't have it both ways.

Or is this method number 2 of dealing with confrontation in schools now if you don't get your own way.

1. Acuse other person of being immature and not respecting you.

2. Acuse other person of being a moaning whining git and make out that they are a wet plonker who rolls up into a ball at the first sign of a challange.

Do they teach you this is some banker Buisness studies course which the kids take as an easy option along aside media studies.

To be honest less than 10% of the people posting on wannbies will ever actually fly a multicrew aircraft. Out of that I reckon its going to less than 5% who actually make a career out of it these days. And you might say its all very well me sitting here preaching with no debts.

Opps is that last statement whining, disrespectful or immature?

[hollingworthp]

Bull/Bear markets Market trend (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_trend?wasRedirected=true)

[JB007]

Some hilarious stuff here - especially from those wannabe's who think that 'fluffy and respect' will come along with a frozen ATPL and zero experience!

I totally agree with mad_jocks comment regarding rates of failure, the chances of never making the position of FO is greater than ever but if you do, for the first 12 months of your career you'll be classed as a 'training risk' - failure rate is high. You will be judged and given professional critism permanently and you are entering an industry where pilots are regarded as nothing more than a 'necessary cost'. The respect levels between Pilots and Management is at an all time low!

For those on second careers, this industry will shock you! For those who have never been in the world of work, well, it sounds like it'll be a struggle for some...

[Uncle Wiggily]

I tend to agree with Madjock's posts. To call him immature because of his fact-of -the -matter posting style is actually immature in itself!

What is exactly with all these, "don't hurt my feelings when you post...or I'll go tell mommy" posts? Since when has political correctness invaded Pprune? I am curious, was this type of "don't hurt my feelings / sugarcoat everything" attitude taught in schools during the last decade? Sad. This seems to be the same attitude in some American schools where wins and losses in sports are banned for children's sporting events because the losers may get their feelings hurt, every game must end in a tie. Sorry, but the real world does not work like that.

Scoot, I don't want to sound mean, but you ought to grow a pair.

[scoot43]

Uncle Wiggily (http://www.pprune.org/members/322161-uncle-wiggily), I'm sorry but you don't sound mean, infact you've just come across as fairly immature yourself. You don't have to adopt madjocks approach of "to the point" because it doesnt work for you. If you're telling me to 'Grow a pair' because of the reasons you've just made, i.e the world is spoon fed and everything needs sugar coating, then i'm afraid you need to re read my post. It isn't about 'wanabees' not having their feelings hurt, it's about people like you not coming across so judgmental to them. But hey, at least you provide us all with a good laugh, and a fine example of what not to turn out like.

[paddyt56]

LT.Goose
"To break the course down, you spend the first year at university campus in High Wycombe... Doing assignments as well as training for your PPL (15hrs only). At the end of that year you buzz off to Florida for a month to complete your PPL. The next year is spent at Cabair's Bournemouth or Cranfield locations for your ATPLs for 6 months - pretty boring stuff. Then, once again you're shipped off to the US of A to hours build as so many do before returning to Wycombe Air Park or Bournemouth to gain your CPL. By this time it's two years after starting your course and you're going back to uni to do the serious work!
After that year, you do your IR and MCC in the summer with Cabair and voilà you've got a job! (Or so they say)"

This course sounds absoloutly identical to the course on offer from PTC B.s.C in airline transport operations along with a frozen ATPL at the end.

On another note i completely agree with the first post on this thread,if i had listened to all this negativity and crap from the likes of madjock and WWW i never would have fulfilled me dreams of becoming a pilot i would consider myself lucky as i was accepted by ryanair 2 months after completeing my training.

they have the mind set of: look at us we are captains now lets just berate all the newbies trying to get into our industry,just not nice people at all and probobly very WEAK people who feel better about themselves and more powerfull when they berate new people in the industry at a lower standing than themselves. pathetic!

[mad_jock]

:mad:You lot don't seem to realise the nature of the beast.

Pilots are payed to be judgemental.

We do it hundreds of times in the space of a days flying.

What you are asking for is the people you want to get the information out of to completely go against the grain of there very being. Which to be honest isn't going to happen for some snotty nosed ppl puke.

As I said before we don't respect you because you haven't earned it. As far as we are concerned you have no rights, no opinions that matter. Your ideas and views of the way the industry works are that of a 5 year old that wants an icecream but dad won't get them one.

The immature arguing may very well work in an office enviroment. You ain't in one of them, you will get eaten alive if you start trying to play by those rules. You are going to work in a hard operational enviroment which has no room for fluffy pampering because peoples lives are on the line, the most important one being your own.

If you want fluffy go and play on the OAA forums.

[shaun ryder]

How very un PC Jock! I agree with you 100% Lol.

[Concorde14]

Oh Mad Jock you do give us all a laugh with your rantings...

Perhaps if you actually had some more sleep instead of logging onto this forum at stupid-o-clock you would be a lot more calm and relaxed instead of spouting off like a mad preacher.....

I agree experience provides you with envious amounts of insider knowledge, it does not, however, give you the right (or we as you say, who is this 'we' by the way) to dismiss the opinions of others who aren't in your 'fortunate' position....

Regards

Concorde 14

[Capt Pit Bull]

stupid-o-clock

I thnik you mean 'normal working hours for those in the airline world'.

[G SXTY]

Gents, from someone who has been there and done it.

When you cock things up in the sim, or the real aircraft (and trust me, you will, whether in a PA-28 or a 737) the first and most important lesson you need to learn is humility.

When you turn the wrong way in a procedure, leave yourself hot and high on approach, or mis-identify the failed engine in the sim, expect plenty of constructive criticism, some of it quite blunt. If you can’t handle that kind of advice (and I have trained with people who couldn’t), it will get noticed very quickly, and your flying career is likely to be short.

If you think WWW and Mad Jock are a bit harsh for your tastes, just wait until your first OPC debrief at 'stupid-o-clock' . . .

[KAG]

I think Greece is going to turn into a contagion, UK credit rating is going to loose its AAA status and a double dip is in the pipeline.

Well, it seems somebody heard you, have a look at Portugal: AA- today...
Futures fall after Portugal sovereign rating cut (http://www.easybourse.com/bourse/actualite/futures-fall-after-portugal-sovereign-rating-cut-810272)

Good thing is Europe getting more competitive.
Other than that, future doesn't seem great...
However Asia, middle east, south america are not in the same boat...

[Concorde14]

Without wishing to divert attention from the main topic here, there is no way the UK would lose its AAA gold standard rating, so i will have to disagree with you there WWW and would be interested to learn on what basis you predict this?

The City of London still remains the financial centre of the world and the Government will do whatever it takes to maintain this, losing AAA status would be an irrecoverable severe blow for the UK financial market and will simply not be allowed to happen.

Regards

Concorde 14

[KAG]

The City of London still remains the financial centre of the world and the Government will do whatever it takes to maintain thisI am not sure what the government can do, apart from creating more debts to reimbourse the previous debts.

However I tend to agree with you, I don' t see UK loosing its AAA status, UK not having more debts than many other rich countries.

Economy is not off topic, aviation being completely linked to economy.

In europe, and even in north america (but Canada?), it is definitely not a good time to pay for training.

[mad_jock]

What do you mean stupid o'clock? The sun is always up when I post. ;)

And if you can't deal with "you made a right :mad: of that what did you do wrong" then move on and fly another 3 sectors your in the wrong game.

What are you concorde some sort of HR person wanting to make the change to working for a living?

By your posts on here you be more suited to the HR department than flying the line.

How you going to deal with


"Why the :mad: did you divert there you :mad:"
"What do you mean its in the tech log? Thats the whole schedual :mad: for the next two days"
"No I have looked at the FTL's and you are legal to operate after a 21 hour duty with reduced rest of 11 hours I will have to report you if you refuse to do it"

All of the above is Captain ****e most of it solved with two words.

"what do you mean your ill, there is no cover get your arse in now"
"you made a right :mad: of that, have a word with yourself before the chief pilot does next time you do it"
"you really are :mad: useless"
And thats not even going down the route of some of the lines bullying Captains use.

And the one that even Neil Armstrong can't jig a reply up to

"With someone of your experence I expected better" Thankfully never been poked at myself but a killer as a kick off line to a debrief, be you 250 hours or 20000 hours.

And were do you find that I don't have the right? Every country's ANO I have operated under not only is it a right but it is also my duty to ignore the opinion of people talking ****e.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Without wishing to divert attention from the main topic here, there is no way the UK would lose its AAA gold standard rating, so i will have to disagree with you there WWW and would be interested to learn on what basis you predict this?


Its no secret that 9 days ago Moodys credit rating agency said the UK had moved "substantially" closer to losing AAA status.

According to them the U.K. is likely to spend 7 percent of revenue servicing debt this year and 9 percent in 2013, rising to almost 12 percent under the adverse scenario.

Financing costs above 10 percent put countries outside of the AAA category into a so-called debt reversibility band, the size of which depends on the ability and willingness of nations to reduce their debt burden by raising taxes or reducing spending.

Its all going to hinge on the growth rate for next year. I think the Government is overestimating the figures. Darling revised them down a little at lunchtime. I think he's still too optimistic. House Prices are a very good proxy for the wider economy. They started falling agin in Jan and Feb and Easter is usually the absolute peak for house sales - but the estate agents I know are still struggling and every time I go past the offices are empty of buyers.

We shall see. Hopefully I'm wrong and I can go and dig up my gold stash:eek:


WWW

[Concorde14]

Oh i apologise Mad Jock, you clearly are judge, jury and executioner on all things aviation related....

However, you have served your purpose in illustrating my point on all that is wrong with this forum (aggressive responses to newbies, immature arguments, sarcasm, boundless negativity etc). Seriously guys, its a discussion forum chill out!!

I wish all of those genuine financially astute wannabes the best of luck and i sleep easy at night knowing that we will make it despite the 'statisics' thrown around on here because we have passion, commitment and a sensible head on our shoulders.

For those of you fitting the above description i look forward to flying with you in the near future.

Regards

Concorde 14

[Concorde14]

I'm going to go all Jeremy Clarkson and state 'The UK will not lose its coveted AAA status & will do whatever it takes to protect it'....if it does i will eat my own hair!!

Moving substantially closer to losing it does not mean its a dead cert. In addition other countries are facing the same risk too, namely the US, Germany, Spain.

Regards

Concorde 14

[Uncle Wiggily]

OK, you win Scoot 43. Everybody out there listen carefully.....you just need to believe in yourself and make it happen. Don't let the meanies in the world tell you that you can't do it! Follow that rainbow and wish upon the shooting star. You are special!

[mad_jock]

Come do let us know. Do you work in HR? I have 10 quid on this with one of the FO's.

He reckons you are just a bit of girls blouse with no heavy industry experence. I reckon you work in HR and proberly have a degree in it as well.

[fanda78]

...and you work as a ... PR???
just guessing by number of posts you did on PPRUNE...
(eeer is any of your posts positive? No? I'm not surprised...)
you like to talk don't you???:ugh:

[scoot43]

Oh Uncle Wiggily, when will you learn that simply "believing" and "wishing on a shooting start" is not enough to achieve what you want! Even following that rainbow wont help. But i'm glad to see you're coming around to the idea (i can be sarcastic too ;)) Remeber, it's supposed to be a discussion forum, not anger managment.

All you've done is come across as 'aggressive' without any evidence to any claims you've made. At least Mad Jock backs himself up. Perhaps you should get back in the foxy boxing ring before posting more. :ok:

[Lt. Goose]

"OK, you win Scoot 43. Everybody out there listen carefully.....you just need to believe in yourself and make it happen. Don't let the meanies in the world tell you that you can't do it! Follow that rainbow and wish upon the shooting star. You are special!"

:ok:




I feel better already! In fact, I'm gonna apply to Virgin Atlantic right now! 47 hours under my belt, I'm positive Mr Branson would love to have me on board!


See what a little sugar coating has done to me? I've gone :mad: nuts.

[ei-flyer]

This is quite ridiculous.

Professional pilots?

Most assertive posters in this thread seem to have a viable point to make, no doubt, and I tend to agree with a little of everything the masses appear to see.

mad_jock is correct in his post regarding the (sometimes seemingly) verbal attacks you'll be subjected to throughout a flying career. It's all well and dandy for the lot on here to pipe up screaming, "I'd be disgusted and in this day and age nobody should be spoken to like that." Or, "As a pilot I'd never expect to be insulted or called names like THAT!"

Whether you like it or not is irrelevant. It happens, and I've been subjected to my fair share of negative verbal receipts (new PC term, maybe?) following what seemed at the time to be minor debacles, and I get on with most people. In fact, I'd go so far as to say I am a better pilot for it, and more critical of others' flying as a result. Get over it, or choose a different career, because you won't last long without building a thick skin.

However, under all this, is one of the most rewarding careers if you have what it takes to work hard enough and bear with the sh*t long enough to make anything out of it. I'm still in my prime years as far as flying goes, but already I feel I've come a long way - in some respects aviation really does make you work for success. Before I started flying, I never knew what it was like to come away from something (a bad flight) feeling so awful about myself and my performance. But you stick with it, and if you're any good you'll make it.

Anyway, back on topic...

[VKwannabe]

WWW and Mad Jock your posts are quite welcome as a find a lot of pilots/wannabes have very fragile Ego's and having old and wise Pelicans let us in on what flying the line is really like is needed. As for the economy any one out there who insists were not going to double dip....etc should let me have some of what their drinking !.........


whats your poison

VKwannabe

[mad_jock]

eeer is any of your posts positive

2-3 years ago they were if you can be bothered to look.

And I don't really go in for the train or not to train threads they come up fortnightly and its the same rehashed pish every time. My usual line is about the marketing spin of certain intergrated schools, training standards in intial flight training and answering questions of a procedural nature regarding logging of hours. And the occassion thread like this one when someone is talking ****e and it needs correcting before it infects some other poor sod.

Do a search in the wannabies forum and see for yourself.

Even after working in Oil yards from the age of 15 in Aberdeen and then into Engineering as a graduate, IT as a contractor with 10 years in the TA. The Airline Industry came as a bit of an eye opener when I first went online. The sexual comments which were batted backwards and forwards would have got you sacked in my previous employment. I learned more about the habits of homosexuals in 6 months than in the previous 30 years of my life, and to this day I could live without knowing what felching is. The blunt and to the point discussions of cockups I was used to from the TA. But it was the pure range of personalities you were exposed to. Then there is the backstabbing and politics, maybe a office enviroment will prepare you better for that.

Then when you move into the LHS the flying becomes the easy fun part. Then you have other pressures, commercial, operations, training, engineering, cutomer liason, security and the multitude of other "officials" who all think they have an input into how you run your flight.

You have to have thick skin and grow a pair otherwise you will end up in the loony bin, off sick with stomach ulcers or an Alcoholic.

Would I go back to Engineering or IT? Like hell I would this job is way to much fun.

[Muddy Boots]

Would I go back to Engineering or IT? Like hell I would this job is way to much fun.

Then stop moaning about it.

[mad_jock]

I ain't moaning, just stating facts. Please quote anything on this thread which is negative about my job (apart from learn what felching is :yuk:)

Anyway the collective of a group pilots standing together is a Moan of pilots. Although I prefer a Whinge of Pilots personally.

To get the true banter of cutting remarks you will proberly have to go to the Eng Forum. Think there is a modual in thier licensing requirments.

So in summary we have B737,757,767,747 A320 J31/41 drivers and a poster who is in Charter ops I think, saying dry your eyes and deal with it petal you ain't seen nothing yet.

And we have some PA28,C172 drivers saying its our right to be treated with fluffy regard to our feelings and you have to respect our feelings. Even though we haven't the experence or have done anything to earn any respect.

If you want boundless fluffy sunshine blown out your backside with no connection to what happens in the real world go and play on the OAA forum. Apparently there is a pilot shortage coming soon and now has never been a better time to train.

I personally don't have a problem with people who want to train just now. I ignored the advice of pprune in 2001/2002.

The issue I have a bone to pick with is that the people who do have the experence and knowledge to give advise should temper that advice because of the feelings of a few wet behind the ears wannabies who have zero clue of what the jobs actually involves or what the normal working enviroment is.

[BEagle]

Our Celtic friends, WWW and mad_jock make very valid points.

Just to add some Avgas to the fire, I was visiting the CAA not so long ago and it happened to be the day that some ATPL exams were being held. Waiting for my host to collect me, it was very interesting to compare the types of people turning up to sit exams. From the polite, smart but casually dressed youngster to the scruffy "Oi, mate - where do I park" oik who was extremely rude to the reception staff.

I mentioned this to my host - he confided that well over half the number of fATPL holders were simply unemployable because of their interpersonal skills. They'd obtained licences and ratings through paying for them, but no-one had ever, it seems, assessed their likelihood of obtaining employment. So nowadays the bottom-feeders of the airline industry just sit and wait until someone suitable crosses their path.

After 11 Sep, demand for airline pilots fell. Even PPL applications fell. But the larger schools started turning fATPL holders into instructors to teach more fATPL hopefuls, who in turn perpetuated this obscene process.

I challenged one of the more well-known FIC providers about this, asking why they kept churning out FIs for which industry had no demand. "We can't stop people becoming FIs, if that's what they want to do", came the reply.

There is only one honest solution - airlines should be required to invest in training by selecting their trainee pilots, paying for their training and then recovering their costs over the first few years of the trainee's employment.

Paying for A320 / 737 type ratings privately is another nasty development which has gained strength in recent years; some of the 'unemployable' wannabes who pay for such things will simply become unemployable-with-debt wannabes.

mad_jock, if some of those 'debriefs' were given in the RAF, the 'debriefer' would be up in front of his boss PDQ.

Oh, and I understand that the 'Armageddon' story about the unfortunate gerbil turned out to be an urban myth....:yuk:

[Concorde14]

Mad Jock if you read my replies it was never about not accepting the harsh realities of what airline life is like, it was the sarcastic, overtly aggressive, immature tone adopted by so many 'regulars' on here that tends to undermine the professional nature of those that supposedly are.

Asking people what they do for a living and taking bets accordingly is taking the thread to a new low! This should have nothing to do with how you treat someone and clearly highlights that you have HUGE chip on your shoulder and secondly that you need to get out more.

Now, well done for making it so far in the industry, yes you may well have earned the respect of those around you but have some decency to keep these topics professional which is what i'm assuming you are..

Good luck to my fellow wannabe's or PA28 drivers as others would have you be known.

Regards

Concorde 14

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Sorry but tone is something over which the author of a post has only a fleeting control. I guarantee that the comments that you read as being sarcastic and aggressive are being read by others who read them as being direct and honest.

Its a limitation of the medium I'm afraid.

WWW

[Maltese Falcon]

Scoot43, Concorde14

What you need to realise is that there is a vast army of very happy professional pilots who never feel the need to visit this type of forum. You will notice this is a rare visit for me. I love my job (jet captain) and am paid and treated well. The road to get here was very long and fraught with heartache and financial hardship but, for me, it was worth every penny and grey hair.


Certainly heed the warnings of the doom mongers but don't even bother to respond to their personal attacks and remember that there is another side to the story that is seldom presented on here. Good luck!

[Concorde14]

WWW - Take your point, but my comments are not a reflection of this topic alone, rather, it is a reflection of a lot of the bile that is often posed throughout the wannabe forum.

Maltese Falcon - Thanks for the comments and refeshing post, glad to hear someone is enjoying themselves out/up there!

Regards,

Concorde 14.

[waco]

.........You should all work in crewing for a while.............
or ask JB007 what it was like............

And for those of you who did. I salute you.

[KAG]

Moving substantially closer to losing it does not mean its a dead cert. In addition other countries are facing the same risk too, namely the US, Germany, Spain.
Concorde, I did agree with you concerning UK and its status, but saying that germany is facing the same risks as spain and the US, it shows a lack of knowledge in the field. No offence. Please don't see anything personal here.

[Concorde14]

No offence taken, but you would do well in reading the latest press release from Moody's:

"In its most recent survey it singled out the UK, USA, France, Germany and Spain as countries that will all have a particularly difficult time removing stimulus measures and bringing debt into line."

Regards

Concorde 14

[copywrite33]

WWW and Mad Jock,

I really hope i get to fly with you one day, IF and WHEN, the industry picks up and i decide to train!
You 2 seem like the kind of guys that would make me a better pilot in the long run. You also seem like the kind of guys the would tell me where i :mad: up, give me the bollocking i deserve and a couple of hours later go to the bar and have a normal conversation. I hope i'm right?

Concorde,

Im a 23 yo wannabe and i'm not in the financial position to go to OAA on the integrated course. I want to be a pilot and i will do whatever i can to make that happen (possibly including removal of certain appendages if necessary) but i will do it with minimal debt hanging over me and with a career to fall back on for the 3-5 years it may take me to become a pilot. I don't take what people say on these forums seriously, they are posting for your own good. Think about what would happen if PPRUNE wasn't available for help and advice. In their own way WWW and Mad Jock are actually helping everyone, if you can't take criticism and a tongue lashing then don't become a Pilot and they will make people realise that, who otherwise may have gone and spent 100 grand to find it out too late.

I was at school in the last decade and the school i went to would never have dreamt of sugar coating the world, (i had my hand broken by my teacher for drumming on the table, some may say harsh but i never did it again!). The world is harsh and the truth sucks but GET OVER/ON WITH IT. You will either make it or you won't and if you cant take a little bit of criticism then move onto another career, maybe as a teacher? (Tongue in cheek - just before you think i am being rude).

[Aerouk]

Everybody out there listen carefully.....you just need to believe in yourself and make it happen. Don't let the meanies in the world tell you that you can't do it! Follow that rainbow and wish upon the shooting star. You are special!

Amen to that brother from another mother.

**Wishes upon the shooting star for a visit from Cheryl Cole :}:}**

I fully agree with BEagle, the airline industry is going to :mad:! It's no longer the best of the best entering the profession, if you can afford it then you'll probably land a slave job with one of the low cost airlines and be up to your neck in debt.

Why anyone would want to take on so much debt in an industry that is well known to be unstable goes beyond me.

[Muddy Boots]

To bring two posts together, firstly, to go back to a great point BEagle made:

It was very interesting to compare the types of people turning up to sit exams. From the polite, smart but casually dressed youngster to the scruffy "Oi, mate - where do I park" oik who was extremely rude to the reception staff.


& then,


They'd obtained licences and ratings through paying for them, but no-one had ever, it seems, assessed their likelihood of obtaining employment.


And then to go back to Mad Jocks comments of:


To be honest less than 10% of the people posting on wannbies will ever actually fly a multicrew aircraft. Out of that I reckon its going to less than 5% who actually make a career out of it these days.


What percentage of the "nice" and personable candidates are there posting here? Or to put it another way... How many of the "nice" and employable people are likely to get jobs?

Muddy Boots