GPS for QXC flight?

[Qwikstop]

Is using GPS on a PPL(H) qualifying cross-country completely verboten? The JAA FCL2 requirement is -

Cross-country flying by using visual reference, dead reckoning and, where available, radio navigation aids.

Clearly, GPS shouldn't be used as a primary navigation tool for this exercise, but can it be used as a secondary method to confirm position?

[Gordy]

Clearly, GPS shouldn't be used as a primary navigation tool for this exercise, but can it be used as a secondary method to confirm position?

Tis not the way I read it....based upon that line only, it appears you can and should use it.

[MightyGem]

Cross-country flying by using visual reference, dead reckoning and, where available, radio navigation aids.
GPS could be classed as a radio aid, I suppose. Isn't your Croos country flight solo? In that case I would think not, because how could it be judged that you are only using it as a backup? Plus, it is supposed to be a test of your nav skills.

[VH-XXX]

GPS is not a radio navigation aid and it is listed under a seperate endorsement. One day in the future our authorities might decide to allow us to use GPS for primary navigation but that might be a while away. Either way you should not use I for early training, but agreed it is good for establishing exact distances for inbound calls.

[BillieBob]

The JAA FCL2 requirement is -Exactly which part of JAR-FCL 2 requires the qualifying cross country to be flown using only "visual reference, dead reckoning and, where available, radio navigation aids"? (Hint - don't quote paragraph 3(m) of Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 2.125 because that refers only to flight instruction and not to the qualifying cross country, which is an experience requirement).

Why must people insist on trying to make this business so much harder than it really is?

[Qwikstop]

Student pilots do get "lost" occasionally on the solo-cross country flights or have an airspace incursion. Wouldn't it make sense to have a back up to help avoid these potentially dangerous situations while still demonstrating an ability to use conventional navigation?

[puntosaurus]

Ahem. The QXC is a solo flight, right ?

[MightyGem]

GPS is not a radio navigation aid
Yes, I know, but it does use radio signals, so one could suppose...

[s1lverback]

Bone up on your NAV and get familiar with the QXC route - it will save you when the GPS loses signal/ batteries die/ or it inexplicably reboots itself several time per flight.:}

Pick out good landmarks and nav between them: 8-10 miles apart if you can so you don't get bored between landmarks.

Flying in to Cannes once from Elba, 430 and Skymap IIIc lost signal when we were 5 miles off coast and positioning for circuit. Thankfully, backup 296 still had a signal - we had maps and would have been fine as we had familiarised ourselves with features, but GPS does make things simpler.

[flap flap flap]

Who is going to know when you're the only person onboard?! Plan using map/compass etc, turn the GPS on too. Use both.

Safety Sense Leaflet 25: Use of GPS | Publications | CAA (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=1179)

[FH1100 Pilot]

Oh please people, come on! The very thought of a helicopter using VOR's to navigate is just...I don't know, silly? Quaint? NONEXISTENT? I mean, really. Q: Who flies a helicopter VOR to VOR? A: Nobody. GPS is here to stay. We have them in our cars, our phones...why the resistance to putting them and using them in our aircraft? I say use it! Use every tool at your disposal to make the flight easier and -more importantly- safer. In a helicopter, you do not want to be spending a lot of "heads-down" time studying charts. You need to have your head up, looking for wires and towers and birds, oh my.

I know there are worrywarts out there who fret endlessly about the "gps going out" or some such nonsense. They'll claim that one day two of the three gps's they had in their aircraft went INOP (which just sounds fishy, but I wasn't there). So be sensible. Make sure the antenna can see the satellites. If the gps is not hard-wired into the aircraft, make sure it has fresh batteries. And carry spare batteries. It's not rocket science.

I love doing a cross-country using a sectional chart. I admit that even at my advanced level, if I'm going someplace far away that I haven't been to before I actually will spread the chart(s) out and draw a line from here to there. Not only gives me an idea of the terrain I'll be flying over, which airports I'll pass and any special-use airspaces I might be transiting (there are tons of them here), but it also connects me with my student pilot self. It's a way of reminding myself that while I could just punch in a Direct-To flight plan and blast off, there is more to being a professional pilot than merely doing that. So I draw my line and fold the chart just so, and keep it out and handy in the cockpit for reference.

The trouble with charts is, unless you are paying deliberate, focused attention, you can't really be absolutely sure of your exact position on them. You can be pretty close most of the time, but if you move your finger and/or get distracted for any reason, it's very easy to lose your place. A gps tells you where to put your finger back on the chart.

Having said that, I never fly without the gps. In all my years of flying with them (since, what, the mid-1990's?) I've never had one fail...never lost satellite reception for more than a minute...never had the batteries go dead. They are as reliable as the sunrise.

My Garmin 496 is an amazing device, capable to providing all kinds of useful information and making my life in the cockpit SO MUCH easier. It tells me where the towers are and even yells at me if I get too close. The VNAV capability is neat. The AOPA database is invaluable. With the XM Weather option, I can see precip and access METARS by simply scrolling to the airport icon (if it's got the weather flag). I have a XAON TCAD playing through it. It is, literally, a godsend to aviation. I fly along in my little 500 foot/100 knot helicopter and think to myself, "Why don't ALL aircraft have this capability? They should!"

I suspect that chart-reading (and maybe even paper chart publication) may become a thing of the past. I suspect that for cross-country flying (i.e. not in the vicinity of an airport), some sort of moving-map gps will become a requirement (and God help you if you bust some airspace because your database is out of date).

Unlike some people, I do not object to such a time. In fact, I look forward to it. We should not be fearing the proliferation of gps- we should embrace it as one of the greatest inventions of the 20th century. Like internet porn. Might as well take full advantage of it (the gps that is - the other one is up to you).

[flap flap flap]

Hear hear. I agree with the last post!

I suspect that chart-reading (and maybe even paper chart publication) may become a thing of the past


Try telling that to the CAA. If they had their way we would still be navigating by using this

http://oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/explorations/07mexico/background/navigation/media/sextant_600.jpg


and this


http://web.pd.astro.it/wings/spectroscopy/pics/table_wingsspe.jpg

and charging us this for the pleasure...

http://suburbanprepper.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/shiny-gold-bullion-bars.jpg

[s1lverback]

I don't think anyone is disagreeing...I always carry/use my GPS, but I also look at my routing rather than just hit the -> button.

The question asked was on the Qualifying Cross Country flight, i.e. when in training for PPL. Until they change the training regs in CAA/JAA (and even FAA) land, so that you no longer have to plan your trips, but just hit '->' or 'Alt', folk might have actually have to learn to NAV - I would prefer a navigator as shown in flap flap flap's post :ok:

However (FH1100 Pilot) as to my 'claim', it happened in a fixed wing (C177) over the sea (Med) at 2500ft....when it happens (providing you notice the signal has been lost) and you have been flying on GPS, it is worrying. Let's hope it never happens to you.

[Gordy]

I agree with FH1100 all round. I was getting ready to post a similar response but he beat me to it...

I don't even use traditional charts these days.. I use Runway Finder (http://www.runwayfinder.com/) for planning purposes, and e-sectionals (http://esectionals.com/) and GPS in the aircraft. I do not believe these services are available in the UK, but you may have something similar. I recently flew from Redding, CA, (KRDD) to Rolla, MO, (K07) a distance of 1400nm with out charts and used the e-sectional printout. (And when you get over the mid-west plain states--there are no landmarks...).

Now unlike he average pilot or student on here, I mostly do not have the luxury of having time to plan a route. Sitting on fire bases, we get given a lat/long to fly to, and have a 10 minute launch window. The furthest point on most forests is 100nm. Having said that, we also get deployed to other fires/incidents on an as needed basis. If this happens, they allow us a one hour launch time. To give you an example of a typical extended launch--whole sitting in Pocatello, ID, (KPIH), we have been launched to Raton, NM (KRTN)--525nm, and also to Darrington, WA, (K1S2)--496nm.

Therefore, I believe that students need to be trained in GPS and also how to plan a "long distance" route quickly. This is one of the qualities lacking these days.

[Qwikstop]

Many thanks for the replies. Obviously the cross-country exercise is one of conventional chart reading and navigation, but I think I'll have my Airbox Clarity attached to my kneeboard as a reassurance. Makes reference to the CAA maps very easy too. Afterall one doesn't set sail without a lifejacket to prove that you are a good sailor ;)

[Whirlygig]

What does your school say?

Cheers

Whirls

[Qwikstop]

Well, the QXC is a chart navigation exercise and the instructor is expecting me to do exactly that. However, he has also told me about the occasional precautionary landings and airspace incursions that have happened over the years!

Each helicopter is fitted with a GPS in any case so it is somewhat a matter of trust that you don't refer to it during the flight. My plan is to use the charts as briefed, but I'd prefer to have the reassurance of a GPS than wander into the Luton CTR...