CAA and SEP rating

[pembroke]

No this isn't the usual "SEP" renewal/ revalidation problem. Twice recently I have been asked to revalidate an SEP rating only to find that it is missing from the ratings page(cert. of revalidation). This seems to have occured during either a licence(JAR) renewal or the inclusion of an IMC rating. In both cases the PPLs handed over the old ratings and licence pages and were issued with the new pages minus the SEP rating. I guess you could say that they should have kept the original ratings page or at least copied it. In one case the pages were requested by the CAA, at the PLD counter, at Gatwick.
When I queried this today the reply indicated that the CAA were unable to update rating validity and include this in a new ratings page. They also said to one of the PPLs that the valid ratings are on page 4 of the licence pages. That doesn't help when I am looking for the revalidation date. Isn't this why we complete form SRG\1119 ! It may be worth asking everyone to keep an eye on this.

[Whopity]

Twice recently I have been asked to revalidate an SEP rating only to find that it is missing from the ratings page(cert. of revalidation) This is actually quite common and not helped by the fact that Gatwick re-issue licences with only one entry on the new ratings page and don't emphasise that the holder must keep all valid pages.

Occasionally, you also find ratings missing from Section XII of the licence. In this case they do not hold the rating and you cannot renew or revalidate it. Ex Integrated Course students may have graduated with only a MEP rating.

It is the pilots responsibility to ensure their licence is valid and if the rating is missing from either Section XII or the Revalidation page, the licence is not valid and all you can do is a renewal. If there is no evidence of validity in the last 5 years, send it to Gatwick.
Isn't this why we complete form SRG\1119 !No! This is so Gatwick can comply with JAR-FCL by keeping a record; they are not obliged to do anything with it. As the information does not go onto any computer database, to obtain the information requires more manual work.

Errors in licences are on the increase; note how many accidents there are where they state the pilot did not have a valid licence. I am sure the insurance companies love it.

[DFC]

To clarify the JAA / EASA wide admin procedure for Section XII of the licence (list of ratings).

When the licence is renewed eg every 5 years or when some other change is made eg change of address, if section XII is printed again it will only include ratings that are valid at that moment.

Therefore if your SEP was valid until 1/3/10 and you renew the licence on 14/3/10, your new section XII will not include the SEP Rating. When on the 20/3/10 you pass an LPC to renew the SEP you have to also get Section XII changed before exercising the privileges of the rating.

When a new licence is issued or a new rating page you should retain or be given in addition the old pages.

It is a pain but will remain so for the time being.

Another one is Section II - Date of Initial Issue. This date will be the date of initial issue of that licence - less than 5 years ago if it is valid and not the date on which you first obtained the PPL/CPL/ATPL. Therefore, some far way countries can question how an ATPL which was initially issued 1 month ago could have so many PIC hours on a B747 in the last year!!!!

Simple answer - always keep the old pages and get the CAA to return the old pages also. A new rating eg IMC is placed at the top of a new page because they expect you to retain the old page also.

[Whopity]

I doubt that any two States have adopted the same administrative procedure.
Simple answer - always keep the old pages and get the CAA to return the old pages also.There is no requirement to send a licence to the CAA so there is nothing for them to return!
Therefore if your SEP was valid until 1/3/10 and you renew the licence on 14/3/10, your new section XII will not include the SEP Rating.Not true in the UK. They only remove a rating that has expired by more than 5 years, so you would have to wait until the next re-issue before it drops off!

[DFC]

I doubt that any two States have adopted the same administrative procedure.



You would be surprised. One of the few true areas in which harmonisation was a reality!!

There is no requirement to send a licence to the CAA so there is nothing for them to return!




Correct.

However, you might be surprised to find that lots do. Hence the original reason for this topic. Many others hand over their licence at the counter. Lesson to all - if you give your licence for any reason (including ramp check!!), make sure you get all the pages back.



Not true in the UK. They only remove a rating that has expired by more than 5 years, so you would have to wait until the next re-issue before it drops off!


Perhaps you need to be aware of how the UK (and every other country complies with the following JAR-FCL requirement;


Ratings that are not validated will be removed from the licence at the discretion of the Authority and not
later than 5 years from the last revalidation.


Is the UK-CAA (in your opinion) the only authority that gives someone a licence with ratings that they do not hold included?

When the licence is re-issued (every 5 years), the authority can only include valid ratings. The fact that the holder has previously held rating(s) which are no longer valid but less than 5 years since they were is a totally separate issue.

Unless the rating is valid you do not hold that rating. End of. far too many people quote that they have x y and z ratings only to find that actually they don't but they did 3 or 4 years ago. Hopefully the UK CAA does not subscribe to the same format of dreaming.

[Whopity]

When the licence is re-issued (every 5 years), the authority can only include valid ratings.The UK CAA re-issues a licence on the basis of a valid medical certificate and any class or type rating that has been valid in the last 5 years! As they have no computer programs to tell them which ratings are valid, they would have a huge increase in workload.

Historically, under UK Law, the UK CAA had no right to remove any rating that had been previously awarded hence FIs retained their old AFI rating indefinitely. They have interpreted the rules as meaning they cannot remove anything that has not expired by more than 5 years. As it has no legal status yet they can do as they like!

[DFC]

The UK CAA re-issues a licence on the basis of a valid medical certificate and any class or type rating that has been valid in the last 5 years! As they have no computer programs to tell them which ratings are valid, they would have a huge increase in workload.



Let's see if I understand what you are saying.

You say that the UK CAA have no way of telling what valid ratings a pilot holds at any particular time and it would be a huge increase in workload to acheive this knowledge.

But, they somehow can tell if a rating was valid in the past 5 years i.e. from 1 minute ago to 4.9999 years ago. How can they do this if they don't know what ratings are valid at a particular time.

Is it a problem that Examiners are not sending in the required paperwork with minimal delay or that the CAA is taking too much time to update pilot records when this information is received?

[Whopity]

Examiners send in the information (well some do) and it is filed an a personal record. Unless that record is taken out and examined the information is not readily available.

The licensing computer contains details of ratings held but not necessarily revalidations.

Quite often a rating does not disappear after 5 years!

If you were renewing a rating that had expired by more than 5 years, they would look at the record.

All the result of a mixture of disjointed and incomplete IT projects over 10 years.

[pembroke]

Well what do you expect on a soaking wet day!
Today I was asked to renew/ revalidate a JAR PPL, issued in 2007. This JAR PPL was issued c/o the original UK PPL, issued in 1990 but with little flying before the training and LST pass in 2007. Again there was no SEP rating or SEP validity date on the Cert. of Revalidation. More importantly, there was no SEP rating included on page 4. This I assume had been missed, even though all the training and test in 2007 was on a C152! The 1990 PPL had SEP(group A) and SLMG. Only SLMG had been carried on to the new JAR PPL.
Oh, before I forget, this was a Danish national and the JAR training was done in Spain.
As we gently feel our way into EASA, could the integration of licences and training all be a seamless process? I doubt it.