EK - CPT Discretion

[flareflyer]

I read the safety weekly reports and i found that some colleagues filed ASR's regarding fatigue but in the mean time they also went in to discretion.........

How can we expect to bring to a more human level our rosters if many of us still keep going into discretion?

I think we should send a clear signal to our management starting with not going at all into discretion regardless where we are

flare

[global707]

Discretion is a great thing....

Works well for those who use it to their advantage....If you need to get home, folk will use it as it helps their own self purpose. Not all mind you, but it happens.

Difficult to have a combined action on this as everyone interprets situations differently. Differing levels of tiredness have an impact on that decision. Of course, if folk are experiencing true fatigue, then the decision should be alot simpler

Anyone out there really ever ever experienced true fatigue? (and I don't mean being super tired)
:hmm:

[Laker]

what's the difference between "true fatigue" and being super tired? Are you safe to operate an aircraft while being super tired?

According to a 2000 study published in the British Medical Journal, researchers in Australia and New Zealand reported that sleep deprivation can have some of the same hazardous effects as being drunk.[27] People who drove after being awake for 17–19 hours performed worse than those with a blood alcohol level of .05 percent, which is the legal limit for drunk driving in most western European countries and Australia. Another study suggested that performance begins to degrade after 16 hours awake, and 21 hours awake was equivalent to a blood alcohol content of .08 percent, which is the blood alcohol limit for drunk driving in Canada, the U.S., and the U.K.[28]

[Mr Good Cat]

Anyone out there really ever ever experienced true fatigue? (and I don't mean being super tired)


Yes, about 7 years ago as a FO in my previous company (short-haul low cost during crew shortage and roster disruption)...

Extreme tiredness but trouble sleeping, leading to feelings of Nausea when exerting ones self.

Nothing like that experienced here yet, more just microsleeping due to extreme changes of time-zone with little thought or regard to operating a few days far east followed by a few days far west of Dubai. Plus badly planned night turnaround sectors that are in discretion before they even start.

As someone pointed out earlier just because it's not chronic fatigue doesn't mean it's safe to fly when very tired.

Interestingly enough I found 100 hours a month in my previous Company was not such a fatigue issue as long as you stayed in the same time zone and flew at similar times each day (although left you with no quality time at home).

However this ULR business is a totally different kettle of fish for 100 hours a month. You can't just turn up at 2am having had 2 hours sleep, then fly for 16 hours and be expected to get a regular sleep pattern in the following 24 hours to turn up at work again feeling refreshed for a another night flight. Especially when the destination has a sunrise and sunset 12 hours out of sync... and doing two of these followed by some 12 hour night turnarounds...?

[Plank Cap]

FOM Chapter 21 Para 18.1 allows the use of Commander's discretion to extend an FDP, ''after taking note of the circumstances of other members of the crew''.

Now whilst it's quite clear that whether to use discretion is the Captain's decision alone to make, I would be interested to learn to what extent practically we are all taking note of the other crew members cicumstances. Any thoughts guys?

[harry the cod]

It's a 'selling' game. At the end of the day, i'm not going to end up basing a decision like that because a bunch of 21 year olds didn't fancy 30 mins into discretion. We have 1 hour less on them anyway. Don't do what some muppet did and ask the crew to take a vote. It isn't a democracy and $200,000 is a lot of dosh to throw away due to poor leadership.

However, my colleague on the flight deck..........that's different story altogether!

Harry

[Instant Hooligan]

Harry,
$200,000 is a lot of dosh and the decision should have been made long before a captain has to be pushed into discretion.
Decisions like staffing the airline adequately. This airline has a habit of forcing decisions to the "sharp" end of the operation where the most damage/safety implications are, instead of addressing them at a much earlier stage. That would however force other people into making decisions and we all know that won't happen here.
As somebody said on another thread staffing this airline adequately is not a pilots concern, flying the plane safely is, heavens they sure hold us accountable, shame we can't to the same to others.

[fatbus]

well just talk to those who lost profit share and staff travel for 2 years for causing disruption, hugh underlying pressure

[616200]

Well this is new to me.. Can you pls explain?

[sanddude]

Fatbus, pretty heavy statement!. care to elaborate:ooh:

[harry the cod]

Fatbus, twice in my time with this circus have I refused discretion. Not one phone call, email or meeting arose from this refusal. I have also flown into discretion far more times than have refused it and it will always be my final decision at the end of the day. Stopping profit share, regardless of it being at managements discretion, is a clear case of victimisation.

Instant Hooligan, I do agree with most of your post but no Captain should ever be 'pushed' into discretion. I realise that on the day that's a tough call to make, especially in light of the current climate. However, it's that climate that ensures why I will never compromise my passengers, crew or my licence solely for the benefit of keeping the heat off our managers.

My point in the post was not to be swayed by cabin crew who will not have the slightest idea of costs associated with unscheduled nightstops nor the inconvenience it causes to 300 passengers while they order room service watching big brother! Oh yeah, and by next year they'll have already left!

Harry

[Fearless Leader]

I agree with you 110% Harry

[twieke]

If you decide to leave DXB in discretion, let's say on a long night turn to TRV, and something happens in TRV or DXB on the way back, don't expect the company to back you up because you used discretion. They will cover themselves and say it was your decision to go into discretion. Guess who will take the blame......YOU!!!

[halas]

That's it in a nut-shell! Discretion is for your advantage and yours alone.
If discretion has been accepted, the captain accepts all responsibility.
If you or ANY ONE ELSE screws up, at any stage of the flight AFTER discretion then the Captain has to accept all responsibility, as it was his call in the first instance to breach the FDL's.

Have refused quite a few discretion requests in the past. No extension requests ex DXB. No phone calls or emails followed at all.

halas

[QCM1]

....most of the time not going into discretion is much more tiring and demanding:hmm::hmm:!
Back to hotel,transport,check in,wait for the room,all that on your minimum rest time and back into the game again...

[pitoss]

I agree with most comments so far. Discretion should not be decided by cabin crew...they have no idea about costs and, generally speaking, view their jobs as a temporary one that will allow them to travel around the world (and that's fine!!!).
I just don't agree with the comments that if you go into discretion and something happens, then you are on your own. If something happens YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN ANYWAY, regardless of discretion!!!:}:}

[Mr Angry from Purley]

JIM
In normal circumstances it's likely the Commander will ask the Senior CC. If they reported back all the CC had a problem then it makes it difficult and the Commander would need to speak to them. However say 2 do - stick them in seats that don't open doors etc.

[acegreaser]

Make the CC work til the end of their normal FDP and then let them stand down. They might just feel compelled to work seeing the rest of their colleagues working. It's very unlikely that all crew would want to stand down.

[Trader]

I hate to say it but some of you sound like management!!! ......make them fly, stand them down, don't give them a door...yadda yadda yadda.

It is the same way management currently treat us! Same disregard.

The law is the law. If an FA does not feel safe to go into discretion who the hell are you to tell them they are!!?? In fact, if an FA says they are fatigued or feel unsafe to fly you had best be very careful in 'deciding' that they will continue.

I understand the sentiment that the FA's may be less concerned about the company and decide not to go into discretion because they would rather party for one more night in BKK. But it is not true of all of them and, worse, by allowing the commander to decide the company and the regulator are simply placing even more responsibilty and pressure on him. Should something happen it's the Captain they will hang--as others mentioned.

The solution might be to simply speak to each one individually (covers your ass if something happens). In the end you'll have enough to cover the doors in all likely-hood which is all we should really be concerned with--get it home and service be damned.

In fact, since the duty of care is with the Captain I would even say that in a court of law if he did NOT speak to each individually in a true attempt to guage suitability for the flight that he might be liable should something happen.

If we as pilots want to be treated as professionals, as we should be, then it is incumbant upon us to act in such a manner. Stamping around crowing like a peacock about how "I'm the captain" only matters if you actually ACT, MANAGE and carry our your RESPONSIBILTY as a captain.

[trimotor]

While I agree that the cabin crew's fatigue levels should be considered, it might surprise readers to learn that management do not mean cabin crew when they talk about considerations for discretion. Been there.