Peter Collins and the Eurofighter Typhoon?

[Obi Offiah]

Does anyone know if Peter Collins has flown the Eurofighter Typhoon? I ask because he has previously been very impressed with the Mirage 2000 Flight Control System and has said that that of the Rafale is even better. I'm interested in how the Typhoon compares to the Rafale in this respect.

Obi

[Rigga]

Knowing Pete he's probably teeing it up as we write. I can't see him NOT doing that one having read his praise of the newest Rafale.

[Five Livers]

Perhaps he's too busy studying the gear up take off characteristics of the Hawk?

[Piltdown Man]

...or refuelling in NWI on his way to AMS from STN.

PM

[Rengineer]

OK slippery terrain, but have any of the EF drivers around here had a chance to try the Rafale, and would like to comment? No flames pleeeease.

[cessnapete]

I am reliably informed request made to Eurofighter for said flightest. Request refused. Perhaps Typhoon not as good as advertised against The French.!

[Obi Offiah]

That's a real shame. He has already stated that the Rafale has the best and the Mirage the second best FCS of any aircraft he has flown to date. It would be nice to see how the Eurofighter stacks up. Oh well!

[Jackonicko]

Flight have already had their Typhoon flight, and gave it to Craig Hoyle, their defence editor (good guy, great communicator, sharp mind), and not to Pete Collins.

They can't really expect a second bite at the cherry.

And perhaps EF GmbH thought that Collins' Rafale flight test lacked credibility, and didn't feel that a pilot who retired from military test flying 20 years ago, and whose most recent frontline tour was on the Gen 1, steam driven, analogue Harrier might not be especially well qualified to evaluate the jet?

[cessnapete]

I would think a more credible test write-up would come from a practising Chief Test Pilot of a large UK Company who flies the sortie. Presently current on a couple of RAF types, and numerous previous tests on many European and US fast jet and advanced trainers.
As opposed to the defence editor who in effect goes along for the ride as a passenger!

[Jackonicko]

I was surprised at the choice that Flight made, though I don't begrudge Craig getting the best jolly any aerospace writer has had in recent years....., though I'd agree that the viewpoint of any trained and qualified mil pilot would have been more useful than his.

But perhaps EF GmbH specified what sort of passenger they'd accept? Round about that time, the people getting Typhoon rides were folk like James May....

However, since Flight have had their shot at Typhoon, why should they get another - just because Collins was breathlessly enthusiastic about Rafale (and, frankly, made some pretty silly remarks)?

To me, this just highlights the fact that a magazine as prestigious and important as Flight should have a more current TP, with more recent and more relevant experience.

Someone who has flown a modern, glass cockpit, multi-role fighter operationally, who has flown aircraft of Typhoon's class and whose military test flying experience encompassed 'fitness for purpose' testing and evaluation, rather than research test flying (Boscombe rather than Bedford - Pax River rather than NASA Ames). You make a big deal of PC's experience - what would the two RAF types he's current on be? King Air and Global Express, no doubt?

As to fast jets, his operational tours were on Harrier GR3, SHar FRS1 and (I believe) Lightning. He flew Mirage 2000 while at ETPS more than 20 years ago. Apart from a handful of one off flight tests for the magazine, I'd question how wide his experience of contemporary fast jets and advanced trainers really is. And, to me, his conclusions on Rafale reflected a lack of any real baseline for proper comparison.

I would not for one microsecond claim to be fit to lick PC's boots, nor am I suggesting that I would in any way be better suited to flight testing anything, but my own lack of qualifications should not bar me from being able to take a sober look at other people's suitability to do so.

RAF pilots flew Rafale in the UAE last year. Your supposition that "Perhaps Typhoon (is) not as good as advertised against The French!" could not be more wrong.

[sprucemoose]

Yes, Flight International has done an article from a ride in Typhoon, but it did not "choose" to send the defence editor rather than its tame test pilot. When the ride was offered (by the RAF with support from BAE) a TP ride was requested as first preference, but turned down by the service and company. And by no means was the resulting article in any way dressed up as a proper flight test - fun thought it was thanks.

The aircraft flown was a Tranche 1 Block 2 jet, so not really frontline representative - that's what we'd like to see now for the magazine please, Eurofighter.

Pete has had some past Typhoon project experience, having evaluated the type’s control laws on a large motion simulator before first flight, and also tried the current simulator at Coningsby a couple of years ago. And with the recent Rafale experience, who better to have a go?

Whatever you might like to believe, Jacko, there is no queue of current, rated service TPs cleared and offering to do evaluations like Rafale for magazines. I suspect most of them are a bit busy with the day jobs.

[212man]

To me, this just highlights the fact that a magazine as prestigious and important as Flight should have a more current TP, with more recent and more relevant experience.

Never more apparent than when reading Peter Grey's RW articles :ugh:

[Jackonicko]

Craig,

Firstly, I could have found you half a dozen blokes who could have done a better job than PC did on Rafale.

Secondly: Who better than PC to evaluate Typhoon?

Anyone who can tick some or all of the following boxes.

Someone with frontline AD experience
Someone who has flown a frontline FJ this century (excepting one off flight tests)
Someone who has flown one or more of the following types - F-15, F-16, F/A-18, MiG-29, Gripen, Rafale.
Someone who realises why it was a bit over-the-top, and bizarre to conclude that: "If I had to go into combat, on any mission, against anyone, I would, without question, choose the Rafale," given his actual operational flying experience.
Someone who can write, but who might stray just a little less far from the kind of measured and calm analytical approach you’d expect from an ETPS graduate - whether or not they were actually TP qualified.

I'm a bit surprised that no-one has yet tracked down one of the operational Typhoon pilots who have already flown Rafale.... I bet those blokes have a tale to tell.... ;)

[tonker]

I wonder how long it will be before "Chateau Collins" appears on a French map somewhere;)

[hugel]

There must be huge implications for whom you let fly your aircraft, especially if they are in a position to be making a public comparison.

Are they impartial ? Are they consulting for one of the companies involved ? I have no idea, but what you and I would like to know about the relative merits of the aircraft are likely to be very tightly controlled by those with massive vested (primarily commercial, but also political) interests.

hugel

[sprucemoose]

Jacko, with respect, I think you are being a bit naive here. Go ahead and actually find out if any of your half dozen blokes who could have done a better job (current pilot mates, presumably) would actually be allowed to write for a magazine, using their own real names. I think the answer will be a big fat non on all counts.
If you don't like the calm, analytical style of Flight's TP reports then the thing to do is not read them. And when you don't like one, don't keep banging on about it for four bleeding months. This just feels like petty character assassination.

[hugel]

Someone who has flown a modern, glass cockpit, multi-role fighter operationally, who has flown aircraft of Typhoon's class and whose military test flying experience encompassed 'fitness for purpose' testing and evaluation, rather than research test flying ...

I am just reading Tom Gunn's book about selling aircraft: "Taking Aim on Selling in the High Stakes Industry of International Aerospace"

He talks of the importance of endorsement and the impact of getting Chuck Yeager to help sell aircraft: recounting stories of dering-do for the potential customers and their influencers. The impression I got was that it wasn't experience on the type that was important, but simply credibility as a brilliant aviator.

I'm interested in this discussion simply because of the implications as piece of excellent PR, or a disappointing blow , depending to whose aircraft you show allegiance.

hugel

[Jackonicko]

Spruce:

Two thirds of the six names I'd have suggested were chaps who have retired recently.

As to 'petty character assassination' I'm not questioning PC's character or motivation, I'm just providing a little balance.

His piece has received massive prominence (printed in Flight, repeated in full in one of the issues of the Daily at Dubai, and ad nauseam across the net and in the blogosphere), and Dassault have exploited it remorselessly and have encouraged its wider dissemination. A few gentle rejoinders and corrections on line isn't 'banging on', and it reflects what has been, in my experience, a widely held unease with the piece. Very many people shared my concerns about the article.

The entire point is that this was NOT in any way measured, calm, or analytical (unlike your own stuff, which is unimpeachable).

Instead you had a TP who hasn't flown a frontline jet for more than 20 years, whose frontline experience was on the Harrier GR3 and SHAR FRS1, and whose post ETPS test flying was at RAE (later DRA) Bedford where his job was pure Aerospace Research flying. He did not serve at Boscombe Down and thus gained no experience of clearance/assessment/’operational fitness for purpose’ testing. You had a TP who had not flown anything remotely comparable with Rafale, so no wonder he thought that it was the best thing he had flown. Put me in a PC-21 and I'd rate it the best turboprop trainer I'd ever flown.....

Collins' military test flying career ended in 1993 when he joined Fokker (F60 & F70 airliners), moving to Dornier (Do 328 turboprop and 328 Jet), then to KLM, before joining Raytheon as UK TP/project pilot on the ASTOR Sentinel.

A distinguished senior TP judged that he had: "little recent, relevant experience that would provide him with any real basis for comparison with the Rafale."

Despite this, PC felt happy to conclude that: “If I had to go into combat, on any mission, against anyone, I would, without question, choose the Rafale.”

He backed this with what my TP source described this as "bad Test Pilot analysis."

Flight enthusiastically validated this OTT conclusion, however, using the coverline "Rafale Rules" and the teaser “Why we think favourite for UAE fighter contest is most complete combat aircraft we have flown.”

I admire your loyalty to Flight, but this article was a joke, and the way in which it was handled marked a poor judgement call, though one of your advertisers must be delighted by it.

A balancing point of view is that "The evaluation was rather cursory and the concluding superlatives are more journalistic than real conclusions and recommendations. If he would risk his life in any combat situation based on the evidence of what he actually saw...... words fail me!”

The 'Rafale Rules' piece marked a real departure from the high standards set by Flight's previous TP, the great John Farley, who might have been away from operational flying for many years, but whose air power brain and insight put yours, mine and Collins' to shame. I wonder how he'd have rated Rafale?

[Fake Sealion]

I knew a Pete Collins in Southampton UAS - mid 70's. Would that be the chap under disccussion here by any chance?

[Rigga]

"Collins' military test flying career ended in 1993 when he joined Fokker (F60 & F70 airliners), moving to Dornier (Do 328 turboprop and 328 Jet), then to KLM, before joining Raytheon as UK TP/project pilot on the ASTOR Sentinel.
"

I think not, F70 & F100 maybe? And Pete was the Flight Test Pilot for Air UK / KLM uk flying the former CAA Fleet Test Schedules. I can't remember if he was limited to the Fokker fleets (50, 70, 100) as I'm sure I sent him on the BAe146, ATR's & 737's - but I stand to be corrected.

[Jackonicko]

I bow to your superior knowledge, Rigga.

BAE 146s and 737s would, of course, render the fundamental criticism moot.....

[sprucemoose]

Sorry to take a while coming back; magazine deadlines are way more important than this topic.

I’d actually argue that PC is very well placed for what we require on Flight, having now done reports on the T-50, M-346, M-311, PC-21, and Rafale for us. Plus his past experience on F-16, Mirage 2000, Tornado GR1/4 and F2 and many others, including VAAC Harrier.

I find it odd that you assert that the magazine’s reputation has been gravely damaged, yet to my knowledge we have received no negative correspondence from our readers. The Rafale test was a massive scoop, and very successful.

Also, we’ve strangely seen no official reports/comments from those RAF pilots who supposedly flew Rafale recently – no photos, nothing. So when can we look forward to reading a flight test report on it from one of your six much better TPs, maybe in Combat Aircraft Monthly?

[Jackonicko]

If you've detected no unease and negativity about PC's Rafale piece, Spruce, then you really do need to get out more.

It was certainly a massive 'scoop' (is that rhyming slang for p**p?) - and it was a real coup for Dassault to get a magazine of Flight's reputation publishing quite such a breathlessly enthusiastic and sensationalist piece of what read like advertorial.

As to RAF pilots 'supposedly' flying Rafale - weren't you at Dubai? Didn't you meet one of them there?

Rest assured, I'm sure someone will publish something more intelligent and more considered on the subject.

They may even get an award for it! :p

[sprucemoose]

Ah yes, well done for beating me - even in the year that I hadn't even entered an article!! Give yourself a pat on the back.

[Tourist]

Get a room, you two.........:rolleyes:

[mick2088]

Like Harry Hill. Who's the best, Sprucemoose or Jackonicko? There's only one way to find out...

[cessnapete]

Obi, I've done some research and my impeccable journalistic sources report that Pete Collins can, at present, only compare the Rafale FBW Digital FCS, that he evaluated airborne during his FLIGHT assessment at Istres in 2009, with the Typhoon FBW Digital FCS, reproduced in the RAF Typhoon Simulator, that he evaluated at RAF Coningsby in 2008.

However, on the basis of what he saw and what he evaluated, Pete Collins's personal opinion would still be to strongly rate the Rafale Digital FCS as giving the better pilot 'fighter type' handling characteristics of the pair, irrespective of the fact that he believes that the Eurofighter advanced control laws are still highly adequate as a similar, very advanced and very agile fighter. According to PC, the Rafale remains the best handling aircraft (by a long way) of the 34 fighter/fighter trainer types he has flown to date.

I know that aircraft handling chararcteristics can be a very personal pilot 'subject' but perhaps a clue as to how good the Rafale is to manoeuvre is that the French Air Force Rafale won the individual 'Best Display' this year at RIAT?"

[Jackonicko]

Best display at IAT? That must prove it.

Following as it does in the footsteps of aircraft as diverse as the L-39, MiG-29 and Fokker F27.

And PC's 34 fighter/fighter trainers don't include extensive experience (eg more than a single hop) in any aircraft remotely comparable to the Rafale.

[Thelma Viaduct]

You can't beat a perpetual pissing contest.

Even if the french had the F-22, they'd still be surrender monkeys. It's not the tool in your box, it's what you do with it that counts. :ok:

[Obi Offiah]

Obi, I've done some research and my impeccable journalistic sources report that Pete Collins can, at present, only compare the Rafale FBW Digital FCS, that he evaluated airborne during his FLIGHT assessment at Istres in 2009, with the Typhoon FBW Digital FCS, reproduced in the RAF Typhoon Simulator, that he evaluated at RAF Coningsby in 2008.

However, on the basis of what he saw and what he evaluated, Pete Collins's personal opinion would still be to strongly rate the Rafale Digital FCS as giving the better pilot 'fighter type' handling characteristics of the pair, irrespective of the fact that he believes that the Eurofighter advanced control laws are still highly adequate as a similar, very advanced and very agile fighter. According to PC, the Rafale remains the best handling aircraft (by a long way) of the 34 fighter/fighter trainer types he has flown to date.

I know that aircraft handling chararcteristics can be a very personal pilot 'subject' but perhaps a clue as to how good the Rafale is to manoeuvre is that the French Air Force Rafale won the individual 'Best Display' this year at RIAT?"

Thanks cessnapete.

I had completely forgotten about this thread.:ugh:

My only critique of the Rafale article, was is that there is very little information given about the rafale FCS and what made it such a cut above the rest. I've read and enjoyed Peter's articles on the T-50 and M-346 trainers, as he gave quite some insight into the FCS of the respective aircrafts, such as the types of control laws used and their effect on the aircraft.
It would have been better if he done the same for the Rafale and perhaps compared the differences between the FCSs of the aircraft I mentioned. Peter could also have gone further and talked about what he liked and disliked between those systems.

[jwcook]

ANALYSIS: We check out Eurofighter's P1E upgrade in simulator - 1/19/2015 - Flight Global (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/analysis-we-check-out-eurofighter39s-p1e-upgrade-in-407816/)

2015 Peter Collins evaluation of P1E standard took place using BAE’s active cockpit rig (ACR) for the Eurofighter, and was overseen by Steve Nuttall, one of the company’s senior Typhoon cockpit engineers.


unmatched lethality in both the air-to-ground and air-to-air roles.


Compare with his Rafale 2009 piece FLIGHT TEST: Dassault Rafale - Rampant Rafale - 11/9/2009 - Flight Global (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/flight-test-dassault-rafale-rampant-rafale-334383/)

Rafale is Europe's force-multiplying "war-fighter" par excellence. It is simply the best and most complete combat aircraft that I have ever flown.

[DITYIWAHP]

To make those assessments after an unclassified look at one aircraft and the simulator of another is not justifiable. It sounds like the lunch budget formed part of the assessment criteria.... :rolleyes:

[40KTSOFFOG]

How desperately sad!



https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/obituary-peter-collins-flight-international-test-p-429158/

[Wander00]

That is sad, remember him from when I was a RAT Trustee. Condolences to his friends and family

[bob lyons]

does anyone know the cause of death of Peter Collins. It seems to be a big secret for some reason

[Flap62]

does anyone know the cause of death of Peter Collins. It seems to be a big secret for some reason

I would guess that if you do not know then it's for a reason. It's not a "big secret", it's just a family wishing to grieve in private perhaps.

[bob lyons]

Does anyone know the cause of death of Peter Collins? I worked with him at KLMUK and we were quite good mates.

[Chris Kebab]

Don't know where all this "Peter" has come from - in all the years I knew him he was simply Pete.

RIP mate.

[glad rag]

What a horrible turn this thread had taken.
RIP

[Flap62]

What a horrible turn this thread had taken.
RIP

Apologies Gladrag. I have removed my post. I just get rather annoyed when people exhibit morbid misplaced curiosity on a public forum that may be read by still grieving family.

[Fonsini]

Why are we still arguing about quadruplex FCS and how twitchy something is in the circuit. Surely the yardsticks these days are RCS, sensors, and effectiveness as a node in a securely networked system ?

If we really do just want to talk about handling how about we start with engines, the Typhoon has 2 of the best out there (Gripen E are you listening?) while technology wise the M88 is directly derived from the unit found in a Reliant Robin.

[glad rag]

Apologies Gladrag. I have removed my post. I just get rather annoyed when people exhibit morbid misplaced curiosity on a public forum that may be read by still grieving family.
no it wasn't your input. it it quite easy to search and uncover enough information to delve no further.
Condolences to all affected.