Instructors who are Line Pilots

[Gazeem]

Hi guys,

the CAA are having a series of focus groups determining the status of non-company flying hours.

The nub of the matter for airline pilots who instruct on their days off is whether light aircraft instructing invalidates days off. If this was the case then instructing could only be done on days that did not qualify for the 1 in 7 or 2 in 14 rule.

Whilst the hours instructed should officially count towards 28 day and annual hourly totals currently the CAA are of the position that light aircraft instruction should be regarded as leisure activity and not invalidate days off.

The CAA have asked various operators to have a think about this.

Can you use whatever influence you may have with your companies to make sure that light aircraft instruction remains an activity that does not invalidate a day off.

Otherwise it would be very difficult to maintain a decent amount of light aircraft instructing going. I know for one I enjoy and value the revision of basic flying manouevres and handling skills that teaching brings.

Gaz

[fireflybob]

Pleased to hear the CAA are taking a relaxed view on this one.

I cannot see that the odd few hours a month should really be an issue.

You could be doing all sorts of other activities on a day off (running a few businesses, going sky diving, etc) which could be far more "fatiguing".

Thanks for posting this Gazeem

[Shiner Pilot]

Well unfortunatly, there have been a number of accidents where line pilots work their nuts off and then go flying for "fun" and then something bad happens!

So you can see why they are looking into it now.

Very interesting to see how this would affect instructors and schools who claim to have airline pilots working for them...

We shall see!

[DB6]

Shiner, really? I don't know of any that involved fatigue, examples please. It's utter bollocks of course; if you choose to fly recreationally - and for airline pilots instruction is recreation - it has no bearing in reality on your work. FTLs are there to protect pilots, not irritate them.
If correct the CAA's view is to be applauded - you may have the wrong end of the stick Shiner.

[what next]

Hello!

I don't know of any that involved fatigue, examples please.Google for "Crossair Flight 3597". Many lives lost (inlcuding one of my favourite singers) because the captain instructed during his rest period instead of resting. Among other factors.

[Gazeem]

Thanks for the information on Crossair. From what I can access from google it doesn't list the causal factors do you have a link that highlights these?

The worry I have is that the health & safety "what if" lobby get their teeth into this it will end up with the most restrictive state of affairs.

As bob says I could be legally running a triathalon, cage fighting or raving all night on my days off. However, a couple of hours instructing will not fatigue me at all.

On the flip side of the accident argument, how many jet hulls have been lost to erosion of basic flying skills/failure to monitor in the last decade?

[what next]

Thanks for the information on Crossair. From what I can access from google it doesn't list the causal factors do you have a link that highlights these?

Sure! This is the full report in english language: http://www.bfu.admin.ch/common/pdf/1793_e.pdf
It is really worth reading the whole 162 pages, but if you want to look at instructing as a contributing factor to the captain's fatigue, start with chapter 4.2.4

[fireflybob]

On the flip side of the accident argument, how many jet hulls have been lost to erosion of basic flying skills/failure to monitor in the last decade?

Gazeem, a very good point. I know that keeping in touch with the basics over my flying career has made me a more competent pilot. Remember also the passing on of skills to the new generation of pilots.

Ok maybe there is a limit. We not advocating airline pilots having another full time job of instructing but, as I said before, a few hours a month teaching at the local flying club isn't, in my opinion, going to make any difference with respect to fatigue for the airline job.

[FlyingOfficerKite]

I suppose the argument against could be that you are using the privileges of your professional licence to instruct.

The fact that it is aerial work rather than public transport does not diminish the fact that it is a demanding and tiring pastime, whether you consider yourself fatigued by it or not - you are not 'resting'.

The hours count towards the grant of an ATPL (if you're a CPL holder) just as do those gained by flying as a line pilot for a commercial operator.

I know that the airlines I have flown for frowned, if not outrightly prohibited, employment outside the airline as a flying instructor.

That of course is the other issue - you are working (employed) by another flying organisation and, flying hours apart, that arrangement would not be acceptable to many airlines, as it not in other industries. It is not usual to moonlight for other companies when employed full-time for another, whether you are paid for it or not.

Whether this situation would be different for part-time employees is another issue.

Imagine a lawyer or accountant being employed by one company and then being put out that his employer frowned upon him working for another at the weekends! That would be nothing to do with hours worked or fatigue.

I appreciate that 'recreational' flying has always been seen as being separate to 'commercial' flying but, apart from anything else, must be seen by an employer as increasing his risk if pilots regularly fly on their days off rather than taking rest.

I also appreciate there are just as strenuous occupations outside flying which are just as tiring and fatiguing - however in these instances there is no direct relationship to your work as a 'pilot' nor your conditions of contract as an 'employee'.

KR

FOK

[Mach E Avelli]

Why not cap it? Say 10 hours a month? Enough to maintain the skills, enough to 'relax'; hardly enough to be fatiguing. And not enough for the greedy buggers -so they will go away and drive a cab or run a brothel instead.

[Shiner Pilot]

DB6

Okay, if you say so...

Anyhoo, having sat on a number of safety boards including our own CAA's FTLs and public transport/rec/private flying has been a topic in the past.

Yes there have been a number of accidents that have involved fatigue brought on from line flying and instructing/private flying, some of the accidents happen to have happened when flying privatly. A Spitfire crashed at Goodwood a few years ago, fatigue was considered a factor.
A number of other prangs have also been looked into regarding other flying in the pilot's life....

Not really bollocks

[Gazeem]

Having read through part of the Crossair report, it seems that the Captain was instructing IFR immediately before his commercial flying.

This is totally at odds with what I'm wishing to defend. Instructing immediately before flying opens up all types of FTL issues and in mind is an absolute no no.

Flying a couple of light aircraft trips per day off followed by at least minimum rest before any commercial activity is what I am wishing to keep in place. This I believe will be far less fatiguing than many non flying activities people pursue on their days off.

I do not agree with supposition that flying light aircraft on a day off increases an employers risk, in fact I believe the case to be the polar opposite. Constantly, hand flying, stall recovering, flying go-arounds and UAs can only help increase safety when monitoring the autopilot.

[FlyingOfficerKite]

... and after all that hand flying you'll probably be more tired than you would have been had you stayed at home and watched a Grand Prix - which increases the risk to the employer as you are likely to be more tired.

Flying skill has little to do with it when you're knackered.

At least not to the extent that a few hours in a C152 will have any benefit flying a B737. Tiredness far outweighs the benefits of a few hours poling a puddle jumper.

KR

FOK

[Pull what]

Gazeem, a very good point. I know that keeping in touch with the basics over my flying career has made me a more competent pilot. Remember also the passing on of skills to the new generation of pilots.

The legislation is about protecting the fare paying public, not teaching students to fly or maintaining skills.

Rest periods are just that, resting away from flying.

[DB6]

I despair. What a load of ****e.....'probably be more tired than if you'd watched a Grand Prix'! Along with most other people I generally move around a little on my days off, I don't regard myself as tied to the settee in case I get a bit tired. I might do some work in the garden, work on the car, even go for a walk - all more tiring than instructing (have you ever instructed?).
If you want to deal with fatigue you have to get a lot more serious than just picking on people who might like to fly on their days off, you have to take on the Michael O'Learys of this world who have turned passenger flying into the cattle market it is today, by squeezing every last drop out of all the component parts, incuding pilots. If you're going to use resources to combat pilot fatigue then instructing on days off is a big fat red herring, you need to grasp a much bigger nettle than that. And who will do that.........?
Pull what, the day somebody tells me to do nothing but rest on my days off is the day I kick them in the bollocks (purely for relaxation of course). The CAA taking the view that instructing is more or less recreation for airline pilots is a very pragmatic approach and saves them wasting time and money barking up empty trees.

[dashman20]

I often linger but don't often reply!
But on this occasion I feel quite strongly that it's worth the effort!
I am one of those guilty of instructing on days off.
Firstly the benefits:
Keeps me a bit sharper-ie eyes work outside the cockpit/hands and feet still
do what they were trained to once upon a time,brain can still compute the basic holds,ADF,wind corrections,do the radio and teach at the same time etc,etc,ie it maintains a reasonable degree of capacity which is an essential trait in modern commercial flying-almost makes me feel like I am a pilot!
Believe it or not,I actually read notices and keep up to date(eg ATSOSCAS)-you have to if you instruct/examine.Occasionally I may have to refer to some of my original flying notes/books in order to answer a question by a particularly awkward/inquisitive student,to which I cannot give a full and satisfactory answer-we both learn and refresh our knowledge together.
I'm convinced that this makes me safer,more allert and adaptable than would be the case if I didn't do it.
This type of aviation enabled me to do what I do now-it's my roots if you like.I get a degree of satisfaction knowing that I am putting something back into flying,and at the sametime setting an example and acting as a bit of a mentor for the pilots of tomorrow.
There are probably more good points if I really thought long and hard about it.
What about the bad points?
I do have to think about duty times/flying hours.Not a problem as I am aware of the rules and why they exist.As far as I am aware I have never broken them.
I have to think about two different forms/types of flying.Thats my choice and I can cope with it.
Occasionally my family life suffers,but they know that this is what I do and that at the end of the day my flying is important to me.
In summary-learning to fly and the motivations for doing so are different for every individual.For me,becoming an instructor was a major leap forward at the time and it also cost a few quid!I thoroughly enjoyed doing it full time and got a lot from it,and so wish to continue to keep my hand in so to speak.When I bacame an airline pilot,that was also a great leap forward but as a lot of people know,you tend to miss 'real' flying.
If the rules need tightening by the powers that be,then that must be for a good reason.On the whole,the people that I know who both instruct and fly the public about are pretty dilligent and probably manage their time and life to a fairly tight degree allready.I don't think that the rules need looking at or tweaking-if anything the exct opposite is the case.

[taxi_driver]

A bit of instructing on your days off does no harm and is far less tiring than many other activites you could partake in. It helps maintain some basic flying & airmanship skills.

There are far more important fatigue related problems out there. Ie: crew sleeping in cars before duty, unable to afford accomodation near to their operating base, and frightened to call in sick due to repercussions (Buffalo crash as recent example ?)

[apruneuk]

Commercial pilots who taught on their days off were unpopular at the school I taught at before crossing the fence myself. It was no wonder the full time instructors were paid peanuts when the boss could staff the roster with moonlighting airline types willing to work for free to keep their hands in. Still, the boot's on the other foot now with the proliferation of pay to fly schemes. What goes around....

[FlyingOfficerKite]

Personally I found six hours instructing in a day plus pushing the aircraft around and three hours driving to and from the airfield quite a long and tiring day - in no way could it be classed as 'relaxation' or 'rest' either in reality or in terms of the meaning and intent of the airline definition of a 'rest day'.

Not s***e in my opinion. Which is why I didn't instruct when I flew with airlines who forbade it and out of common sense when I was flying long hours commercially and was tired after a demanding duty period even when I was permitted.

I have always had respect for my employer's wishes and the common sense not to unecessarily fly when tired and so possibly compromise the safety of my crew and passengers.

Maybe you're different? In which case it might be you who ends up in the s***e?!

KR

FOK

[CirrusF]

It'll be interesting to see how this evolves over the coming years if pay and conditions for professional pilots continue to be eroded at such a rate as is happening today.

Better that professional pilots can top up their wages by working in a field they know on their days off, as opposed to doing part-time work in another field.

In my previous company, we had one pilot who had to work nights as a security guard, and another who was a TA reservist most weekends. They both had massive debts to pay off from their training, and were receiving tiny wages from the company.

[Cows getting bigger]

Cirrus, are you implying that the only professional pilots are those that fly airlines? ;) Personally I instruct alongside some 'professional' pilots who are, at best, average instructors. :)

Turning to the discussion, as a professional (full time) instructor, I would agree with a previous post that a day or so of full-on instruction is by no means relaxing.

[Dan Winterland]

Seems to me that there is a need to tidy up what is accountable flying. The Hong Kong ANO defines it as flying in any aircraft with an MTOW greater that 1600kgs, or in any aircraft engaged in public transport or aerial work.

[Binks]

In this already over regulated world, I feel I am quite capable of balancing a little instructing on my days off with the airline job.
I certainly dont need the CAA to impose any form of regime on me in this way.

Driving on the M25 on the way to work is fairly tedious and can be tiring. The blissful hour I spent the previous afternoon in the front of a Tiger Moth a distant memory.

We are all adults and professionals at that.
Leave well alone I say and let the CAA have focus groups on issues that really matter.

[potkettleblack]

If you want a sausage factory and to turn training into a box ticking exercise then get rid of current line pilots. Personally I would hunt out the real pilots during my training and pick their brains. The knowledge of the industry and what it was like to really fly on the line was invaluable. I got loads of tips on my CV and job interviewing that put me in good stead.

I would steer clear of the flying club 400hr instructor heros that would take great delight in telling you in minute detail how the industry worked yet had never flown in either seat of a MPA despite showing off their shiny 4 stripes. It would be a real shame if the current line pilots are lost.

[Cows getting bigger]

potkettle, I think it is right to have a balance. Line pilots are really good for procedures, IFR/ATC and flight planning type stuff - as you say they are also a good insight into the industry. Conversely, chaps who get 400+hrs a year doing exercises 4-13 in a 172/152/PA28 are probably the best type of person to learn basic handling skills from. Ideally, I would suggest that a student PPL wants exposure to both types of instructor throughout their PPL training.

Where that leaves the 400hr (or far less) wannabe with an FI rating............ :rolleyes:

[DB6]

FOK, I am different in that I wouldn't contemplate 6 hours instruction plus 3 hours driving on my day off - but then neither, I suspect, would you. Which is why it's a fatuous argument, or as I prefer to put it, ****e. Without wishing to sound insulting, if hand flying tires you out I am guessing you used to be (or still are) a long haul pilot; it doesn't tire you out if you are used to it, whether as an instructor or a regional airline pilot, it is fun and far more relaxing than many other activities that are not considered under FTL schemes.
The issue is whether an hour or two's instruction - as opposed to mountain climbing or marathon running - on a day off invalidates it, which is, I say again, bollocks. The fact that flying hours are a matter of record - and therefore easy for the investigators to ascertain - is probably the major factor behind their inclusion in the accident reports mentioned, not the real likelihood of any associated fatigue having been a causal factor. The Goodwood report includes the line 'The pilot's commercial flying commitments were not a contributory factor in the accident'; while he may have been knackered it was nothing to do with his airline flying. The Crossair report mentions many other far more significant factors than fatigue, like the ground they flew into wasn't marked on their charts for a start.
As I say, instructing on days off as as cause of fatigue is simply not an issue, and if the CAA are taking that view then they are bang on. As other posters have said it is far more likely to benefit the travelling public if their pilot has better hand flying skills than if his last hand flying was a landing last month just to keep him in the 90 day rule. Binks's post says it all.

[DFC]

Hands up all those line pilots who hold instructor qualifications and will gladly enjoy the oportunity to do some training in the sim for their employer on their days off?

Stands back and waits for the "that is not recreation" or "what about my time off" or "That would be against FTL" :)

Of course recreational activities are for the most part unpaid.

If ther CAA say that instructional activities can be done on a day off without affecting duty days/times there are far more important issues at stake than the issue of giving a hours aerobatic instruction on the middle of 5 days off.