Manning - Are we shooting ourselves in the foot?

[SaddamsLoveChild]

How can we scream that we are overstretched and undermanned if we can send more servicepersons to the RAF Ski Championships for 2 weeks than we have posts in HERRICK..................don't get me wrong it should never be something that we lose and its great down time but we need to be careful that we dont shoot ourselves in the foot.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

30,000 or so in the RAF and what percentage of those EVER deploy, let alone deploy to Telic/Herrick :confused:

[Pontius Navigator]

SLC, mixed message in your post there.

Those at home can't do the sack cloth and ashes bit when the others are up to their necks in muck and bullets. What have they go to look forward to when they come home? Work hard; play hard.

IIRC, during the Falklands we still managed to maintain a full ceremonial in HorseGuards. In GW1 build-up the CinC stood UK based troops down for 3 weeks over Christmas.

It sort of sends a message. After all Germany didn't mobilise until 1943.

[dallas]

While I've often rolled my eyes at the PTI parallel air force of carefree expeds and unlimited AT budgets, I've also come to the conclusion that cutting our noses off to spite our face is a fruitless exercise in self-flagellation that will go un-noticed by those to whom our austerity is intended to impress.

The foot-shooting started about 8 or 9 years ago when we voluntarily and uncomplainingly 'made do', while our savvier competitors for funding bleated as every cut was muted. Our obedient leaders have sleepwalked towards future spending cuts, taking us to a skeletal state which all along banked on the situation getting better. But the gamble has been lost - the situation has got worse - but unlike other departments we start from a position of threadbare which is, unfortunately, perceived as level pegging for cuts.

[SRENNAPS]

SaddamsLoveChild

How can we scream that we are overstretched and undermanned if we can send more servicepersons to the RAF Ski Championships for 2 weeks than we have posts in HERRICK.....

Have you ever thought about working for the Sun or News of the World? That is the kind of headline they love..........twisted, distorted and not quite true but it grabs the reader’s attention:ugh::ugh:

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

SaddamsLoveChild



Have you ever thought about working for the Sun or News of the World? That is the kind of headline they love..........twisted, distorted and not quite true but it grabs the reader’s attention:ugh::ugh:

Conversely, maybe it should make the thousands of RAF folk who have never stepped into harms way, and probably never will, ponder just for a mo or two :ok:

[RumPunch]

Conversely, maybe it should make the thousands of RAF folk who have never stepped into harms way, and probably never will, ponder just for a mo or two http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

You could look at it from the flip coin the thousands that are never allowed to go on AT as its always taken up from the same people /senior cadre

20 years and I have always been at the end where it matters the most and I have never been able to be released to do nice things yet for 20 years ive paid into a sports fund for officers to have fun. Yet the same people dictate to me I am not in a position to have time off.

End of the day who cares... nobody. no point moaning just get on with it and take what you can :ok:

[gijoe]

Don't worry - it will all change after the election and subsequent SDR.

...but I fear it will be for the worse.

I fear that light blue will take a very severe kicking and that the constant RAF PR send of most officers I have met in recent years will have been fruitless. It concerns me that AT activities will be curtailed by lack of resources.

g:(

[Strato Q]

Conversely, maybe it should make the thousands of RAF folk who have never stepped into harms way, and probably never will, ponder just for a mo or two

I agree there are some challenging runs at Saalbach-Hinterglem; however, I think describing it as stepping into harms way is a bit extreme, it is perfectly safe as long as you ski within your ability.

The Ski Champs are still one of the good things we have, please don't attack them.

[vecvechookattack]

housands that are never allowed to go on AT

There is no such thing as "Not allowed to go". It is your right. AT is not a jolly or time off. AT is your job. It is your duty.

Don't think "Time off for AT, Think time for AT"

[vernon99]

[QUOTE]There is no such thing as "Not allowed to go". It is your right. AT is not a jolly or time off. AT is your job. It is your duty./QUOTE]

LMAO pull the other one it's got bells on. Unless you are already sport billy, and play something at station/command/force level with a senior officer who can pull strings then you have no chance.

Used to work with a couple of sporty types, useless at their job but good at running or whatever.
Typical scenario, already the maximum allowed on leave so they cannot have another weekend off to represent X,Y or Z. About an hour later the boss will receive a phonecall inviting him to release sport billy, under threat of something nasty. Or sport billy is invited by senior bod to go on AT and we get the same scenario as above.

If your face fits AT is available.

[Trim Stab]

How is downhill skiing considered "AT"? It is no more "adventurous" than going on one of those duffers' paragliders they tow behind boats in the Med, or one of those naff wheeled "trains" they drive up and down the beachfront.

Ski-touring, now that is a different matter. You actually learn skills that have some military relevance too.

[Stitchbitch]

Maybe we should be concentrating less on Ski touring and more on downhill after our less than impressive olympic showing. I personally find the scrapping of 'downhill' in the AT sense, to be a bad thing, using ski-touring as a first taster of skiing has the potential to put people off the sport, however, as I've never had the time off to do it I can't realy comment.:} I did have the time off to go bobsleighing, which I can recommend to anyone, however perhapse you'd like to see that withdrawn as well as how often do we goto war in two man bobs?:ugh:

[vecvechookattack]

Used to work with a couple of sporty types, useless at their job but good at running or whatever.
Typical scenario, already the maximum allowed on leave so they cannot have another weekend off to represent X,Y or Z. About an hour later the boss will receive a phonecall inviting him to release sport billy, under threat of something nasty. Or sport billy is invited by senior bod to go on AT and we get the same scenario as above.


Thats sport. Thats not AT.

they cannot have another weekend off

Its not time off and Iv'e never conducted AT on a weekend.

[cornish-stormrider]

so you don't see AT as beneficial then?
I spent almost all of my free time surfing, yacht racing ans snowboarding. Oh my hobbies are militarily irrelevant.... I'd better stop.

The purpose of AT is to encourage leadership and team building..

As a liney mech tech ****** my face certainly never fitted so your argument does not hold water as I still went on AT.

In my experience it is those who do things other than getting pissed and moaning who get off their arse to do these things get to do them.

Here's a tip - read sro's regularly and as soon as you find something you want to do put in a polite request - a bit of give and take etc.

maybe if you negotiated a week of guard as a bribe etc or volunteer for something crap beforehand you would be more ameniable to the man who says no/yes/maybe.

If you are viewed as an all round airman who tries to put up with the bollocks and gives a **** generally, doesn't have people ringing up saying he's missed another appointment or fitness test etc then you will probably be allowed to go - workload willing.

If you get refused then politely enquire why, keep a note and when you ask next time remind the man you have already missed one -

one exped a year, maybe two acceptable. six is taking the piss unless you are me!

[vecvechookattack]

Fully concur with Cornish. :D:D:D

It is not the RAF's fault that you are not achieving your AT.

[Mr C Hinecap]

Those who get most from AT are (in my experience) those new to it or less experienced. I got qualified early on and could lead my own expeds (which were always put together, under my guidance, by developing Airmen and women).

Those who organized it learned a lot and proved a lot to write up about, those who participated got huge benefit from the experiences and those who didn't wanted to come on the next one. Over the years I have had the pleasure of seeing a few of these individuals and most all (in a higher rank as well) commented on the positive impact of AT.

Those 'leaders' of men and women who decry AT are an embarrassment and aren't ensuring one of the few fun beneficial development opportunities is made available to their charges.

Mind you - I'm not saying that downhill skiing is AT - thats sport. Sport is good tho. Why not use the collective purchasing power to have everyone skiing at the same time, so making it fairly cheap?

[ricardian]

vernon99 said
Used to work with a couple of sporty types, useless at their job but good at running or whatever.
Typical scenario, already the maximum allowed on leave so they cannot have another weekend off to represent X,Y or Z. About an hour later the boss will receive a phonecall inviting him to release sport billy, under threat of something nasty. Or sport billy is invited by senior bod to go on AT and we get the same scenario as above.
If your face fits AT is available.

Nothing new - in the early 1970s the "RAF News" contained a letter from a disgruntled chap at RAF St Athan complaining about a JnrTech who played sport at command level, the JnrTech was away 50% of the time and his mates were fed up of carrying his work load. This triggered a series of similar letters from folk all over the RAF until the editor wrote "This subject is now closed".

[Pontius Navigator]

Mind you - I'm not saying that downhill skiing is AT - thats sport. Sport is good tho. Why not use the collective purchasing power to have everyone skiing at the same time, so making it fairly cheap?

It is also a good fitness activity. I learnt to ski on a two-week Army funded ski course. IIRC I paid a nominal sum for kit or something. It was in Cyprus.

[Easy Street]

I can't stand the attitude of people like the thread starter with their "if it's not ops we shouldn't be doing it". Well, I am only spending five months of this year on ops - manning have really shot themselves in the foot there, that's seven months wasted. Don't tell the papers!

[Melchett01]

I did think hard before putting fingers to keyboard, but in a moment of boredom between sandpit planning meetings I figured it was more interesting than reading the 3 week old copy of the Gruaniad that's cluttering up the coffee table.

I can see both sides of the argument here, and Vernon does have a very valid point that if you are good at sports, then you are more likely to find the RAF to be accommodating in letting you have time to do them. This happened several times during my first tour when my unit at the time couldn't release an individual for RAF Football until a 2* got involved.

Likewise, I would hate to see things like the Ski Champs. BWT, parachuting etc etc stopped in a fit of puritanical pique. It has long been my contention that when compared to many of our European colleagues, the British military seems to take a peverse pleasure in making life as difficult and uncomfortable for its people as possible. It is perfectly possible to be professional and dedicated without being beaten with the stick every day of the week. To that end, AT is a most welcome 'bit of carrot' to go with the stick.

However, it has become blatantly apparent in recent years that there is a 2-tier RAF. On the one hand, there are the operational elements - the fg sqns, the FP Wgs, the IntOs and the various Tac units. All to often, individuals posted into these units will find themselves on the ops treadmill, and when not in theatre, are being thrashed at home actively supporting or preparing for ops. On the other hand, you have those individuals not at the sharp end who deploy so infrequently their passports expire inbetween Dets. And there are individuals in some trades who need almost all their fingers to count the frequency of their dets. whilst it's not necessarily their fault for being in a trade or specialisation currently not required in theatre, it is a bit galling for those constantly being thrashed to see the quarterly AT rag, various sports publications and the repeated write ups in the Station rags about individuals who have been allowed 3 months off to single handedly row the Pacific or climb Everest backwards without the aid of Sherpa or oxygen.

In short, a bit more balance please - more carrot, less stick. And for those fortunate enough to get their AT, sports, expeds etc in on a regular basis, just remember that there is a sizeable minority of the Air Force whose only expeds are regular trips to hot sandy places.

[whowhenwhy]

There are also the specialisations that don't go away as often as others and yet still have no time for AT, university short courses etc etc, because they're stretched to the limit supporting flying ops. Leave can be achieved, which I realise is better than some, but nothing else. And you end up working so hard that when you eventually get leave you're ill the whole time as your body realises that you've stopped for a minute!

TBH, I think that our manning levels have got to the stage where we can't afford to have people being released from their primary duties for sport. AT is a bl00dy good idea and should be supported wherever possible, but the impact of having people away from their primary duty competing is unsustainable. If you're limiting your operational capability because you haven't got enough people, then we must be doing something wrong!

[Climebear]

It's not as clear cut as the those that are busy on ops can't do At while those that aren't can afford the time to swan off.

A friend of mine has done quite a few expeds (a fair few with me). For the last one he organised the Quadrennial British Services expedition to the Himalaya also leading the main team on the successful ascent of the 5th Highest mountain in the world. The expedition was long and demanding. Both the expedition and the pre-expedition training (mainly carried out at weekends) were physically and mentally tough on all participants. The publicity campaign that accompanied the trip showed British Servicemen in the best of lights - especially to lots of school classes who followed their progress.

Not bad for someone who currently has 5 campaign medals (that hide a number of repeat tours) and managed a fair degree of planning while leading his Squadron on ops. The leaders of 2 of the other parties both have 4 campaign medals.

This isn't an argument to say that everyone can get the time away for these opportunities; they can't. It is just saying that it is not quite the Ops vs REMFs argument that some like to portray.

[whowhenwhy]

Always thought it was a bit of a kick in the balls to know that trainee aircrew were going overseas for their AT, whilst the most that the rest of us got was a week in north Wales. Don't get me wrong, Fairborne was a hoot and does exactly what you want it to do. Simply don't see why the trainee aircrew swan off to sunnier climbs to achieve the same result.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

@ whowhenwhy ... swan off to sunnier climbs

Please tell me that was deliberate humour ;)

[Pontius Navigator]

To which we can add scuba diving in Gan a couple of years ago and an exped to Ascension, not FI you note. Or to Malta on a staff ride.

[Melchett01]

I have just worked out that I can do plenty of AT when I get back from theatre ..... I will have accumulated a total of 75 days leave.

Should be enough to allow me to undertake my planned exped which is to row down the Nile to its source, trek across coutnry to Tanzania where I will climb Kilimanjaro unaided before base jumping from the peak wearing one of those special suits you can get that allow you to glide in order to break some sort of world distance record.

That should make for interesting reading in the Autumn edition of my station propaganda!

[BEagle]

Hmmmm.....

As a jockstrapophobe who hated sport with a vengeance after many years of 5 days a week compulsory rugby/hockey/cross-country/cricket at public school, I thought that the RAF attitude of the 1970s-1990s was fine. Basically, if you wanted to commit sport or adventurous training, you went ahead and did so. But you didn't expect everyone else to share your enthusiasm for whichever activity you wished to indulge in.

Those who were very talented at station level or above deserved every opportunity to participate - without let or hindrance. And good luck to them.

But the people I utterly despised were those who emerged from the woodwork to take advantage of some sponsored neo-freebie or other as their annual jolly, leaving others to cover for them. THAT was widdle-extraction of the highest order!

When money is down to the bingo-lights, it is quite reasonable to query why UAS cadets (as in University Air Squadon, nothing to do with drones) or other baby ossifers should go to South America to climb hills when the Black Mountains, Cheviots or Grampians are all available.

As for this 'Don't deploy = lesser being' bull$hit, RAF does NOT stand for Royal Afghan airForce. There will be those whose employment does not require them to live in sand and $hit, but they are of no less calibre than those others who do. They do other things of an equal, but perhaps less dangerous or physically demanding nature.

Still, whilst AT is still available, take whatever advantage you can!

[dallas]

I have just worked out that I can do plenty of AT when I get back from theatre ..... I will have accumulated a total of 75 days leave.

Should be enough to allow me to undertake my planned exped which is to row down the Nile to its source, trek across coutnry to Tanzania where I will climb Kilimanjaro unaided before base jumping from the peak wearing one of those special suits you can get that allow you to glide in order to break some sort of world distance record.

That should make for interesting reading in the Autumn edition of my station propaganda!
A noble cause Melchett, that will undoubtedly bring benefits to the Service and enhance your leadership. Just one snag - such toil is, of course, duty - you will have to use your 75 days leave for something else.

[dallas]

But the people I utterly despised were those who emerged from the woodwork to take advantage of some sponsored neo-freebie or other as their annual jolly, leaving others to cover for them. THAT was widdle-extraction of the highest order!
A little bird told me about a SNCO who had some sort of 'can't do dets' downgrade, yet manages level Astronomical on the fitness test and fills his otherwise quiet year with canoe expeds to France and Lands End-John O Groats Charity bike rides.

[Boris1275]

Quote:
LMAO pull the other one it's got bells on. Unless you are already sport billy, and play something at station/command/force level with a senior officer who can pull strings then you have no chance.

Used to work with a couple of sporty types, useless at their job but good at running or whatever.
Typical scenario, already the maximum allowed on leave so they cannot have another weekend off to represent X,Y or Z. About an hour later the boss will receive a phonecall inviting him to release sport billy, under threat of something nasty. Or sport billy is invited by senior bod to go on AT and we get the same scenario as above.

If your face fits AT is available.


I don't think your comments are entirely fair. I regularly do AT and have found bosses to be supportive of requests to do it. However I don't kick the ar5e out of it. Most of the AT is done over 1 or 2 days usually including weekends. I do self funded courses to gain qualifications such as Trial Cycle leader so I can take others out. I don't clock watch when at work and stay until the jobs done. I also volunteer for the less popular stuff like Guard Cdr, parades and OOA. I am not alone in this, as many of the other personnel who do AT on a regular basis do the same. On a personal level I have found that many of those who enjoy AT are good team players, highly motvated and have good levels of fitness. :)

[RumPunch]

Our local magazine at ISK and ISL shows all from the aircrew perspective having staff trips to the places during the war , we are not stupid its a piss up. As groundcrew we are not allowed to show that , we all expected to crack on and get on with it . The RAF does blow goats with the rank structure and i hope soon we are taken over by the army or navy as at least there engineers dont bitch and moan like us so it must be better

[5 Forward 6 Back]

There's at least one squadron at ISK/L which had a staff ride pretty much entirely organised for and by the groundcrew, with minimal aircrew input other than the approval of the sqn execs and a couple of token guys attending.

So I'm sure it can be done if you're not aircrew. Have you tried organising one?

[RumPunch]

only squadron that has ever gave concern to anyone on camp is CXX. 201 is full of self important wankers fact

[dallas]

Went on one v good staff ride just before I left, and wished I'd been on more. Yes, it involved about 9 or 10 of us getting out and having a beer in a foreign country, but it also gave us a very good appreciation of WW1, the sites, battles, people, pressures and pointlessness. Few books will achieve the same.

The beer was a nice bonus, but the stuff I otherwise learned was much more memorable, and done properly this should be the resounding feature of a staff ride. I used to think they we soirees too - but go on one and then see what you think. As for officers hijacking the trips, I'm pretty sure the make-up of the staff ride, which has to be approved by independent adminners somewhere, has to reflect a cross section of ranks before being authorised.

[Diablo Rouge]

Agree with Dallas. In 2008 I was fortunate enough to be able to complete 2 Staff Rides (SR) to Northern France visiting WW1 battlefields and memorials. A very humbling experience that leaves a long standing impression. Now I consider myself a bit of an anorak when it comes to Aviation History having been interested in the same since childhood; yet I was well and truly put back in my box regarding info that I had never heard of ever. On the 90th anniversary of the RAF I laid a service wreath on the St Omer RFC/RAF memorial as part of the SR events. AFAI know, the only RAF wreath laid there on that day.

These are the only ALT/SR I have completed beyond those done as part of flying training under the heading of leadership, and not only did I enjoy every minute, the cross socialising with station members whome I would otherwise never have cause to speak to allied to the new found knowledge regarding service history & culture proved to be worth every euro of the MoDs pocket.

I know from a mate that you can attend SR from other stations were vacancies exist and budgets permit. ....and regardless of Op time, a SR can be found if you look for it.

PS: Are Manning shooting themselves in the foot? They always have done and far too many work to an agenda of keeping their mates happy and lining their own nest for their own next posting. There is a lot to be said for having blunties as desk officers, emotionally detached from individual friendships. I have heard from my own DO recently, "By then it will be somebody elses problem", which epitomises a core problem at Manning. Being devils advocate, if I worked at Manning the place would drive me mad too!!

[whowhenwhy]

Viz-Sorry but my fat blunt arse has organised plenty of national and international AT in past jobs-unfortunately, manning in last 2 jobs has precluded me going. I was simply making a comparison between AT given to those on training courses post IOT. As an example, ground guys get a week at Fairbourne, aircrew trainees get time scuba diving in Egypt. Same course learning outcomes, different location. Why? And don't use the "it's all our own effort" argument, because the DS set the parameters!
Two-tone, on this occasion, it was too good an opportunity to miss.

[SaddamsLoveChild]

My original point is one of justification. There are many benefits to AT however I cannot for the life of me see how a 2 week swan to the alps for a bit of downhill skiing can be classed as valuable 'leadership and self development training' just because the individual competes in one downhill race. As far as I am aware AT is not a 2 week 'right' its available if the manning situation allows......often with shortages in branches and trades it is not. I have to say that whilst it (AT) is something we should not loose there are some more worthy. I have been to the champs many times and not once have I learnt anything about leadership or followership, I have got p*ssed, laid and had a cheap skiing holiday whilst improving my skiing; it is not comparable in any way shape or form to structured AT in the hills or on water where you integrate and work as a team to overcome physical adversity. If someone thinks organising it is a reasonable secondary duty worthy of a comment on an SJAR/OJAR they are deluded.......... much the same could be said about the number of AT trips to Ascension for fishing!!!

We will face cuts to manning and whatever they are will make the situation worse....can this outdated tradition continue? I think not.

[Pontius Navigator]

Interesting that dark blue and green have not jumped in to this contest.

I seem to remember when dark blue used to bus shedloads of a ship's company from Hamburg to Berlin for a looksee. Those in days when, as visiting aircrew, you would have had difficulty getting MT to the nearest toilet.

And these ski-champs, Army stopped attending now?

Many many years ago I used to marvel at the expense of new carpets, curtains and paint schemes that diverted money from our war aims - the Cold War. I eventually swung around the the Marines' view, anyone can be uncomfortable in adversity but if you can make things better then do so.

How long will it last? As long as the grand fromage at the top see the greater benefit.

[Mr C Hinecap]

Just so we can, perhaps, put this to bed.

The aims of the Ski Champs are:

a. To encourage beginners to take up skiing and/or snowboarding by offering formal instruction.
b. To facilitate the transition from recreational skiing and snowboarding to racing by promoting tuition and appropriate training.
c. To encourage and raise the standard of competitive skiing and snowboarding in the RAF.
d. To provide a venue for the selection of the RAF Men’s and Women’s Ski and Snowboard Teams.
e. To develop officials and referees to national standards.
f. To improve military personal fitness through participation in active sports.
g. To provide an opportunity for junior officers, SNCOs and JNCOs acting as Officers i/c or Team Captains to demonstrate organisational and leadership skills.
AUTHORITY
Duty Status. Exercise ALPINE CHALLENGE is an official Inter Station/Unit event....


So - sports - not AT. Same sort of aims as other sports, but in a non-UK location to ensure better conditions.

[The Old Fat One]

The debate over time off for sport (AT or otherwise) is as perennial as arguments over pay as you dine, dress code in the mess, actuals V rates, etc etc ad nauseam.

Fact is the military use sport to recruit....quote below cut and paste from the RAF website one minute ago...


Join one of the RAF’s many sports clubs and you could represent your base against other stations or play for the RAF against other Armed Forces. You could even take part in the Olympics! The RAF sponsors its most talented personnel to compete at the highest level, not only by giving them time off to train, but also by subsidising their travel, entry fee and equipment costs

So the obligation to deliver on expectation is perfectly clear and if some dudes milk it (and we all know some do) then that's a matter for their line managers (or Flight Commanders if you are old school).

[kkbuk]

Pontious, the German Navy provided the transport to Berlin and other cultural centres in order that Jolly Jack Tar be able to avail himself of the attractions and delights to be found in those centres. The Royal Navy's transport was run exclusively by civilians for their own purposes. Rarely, if ever, was the transport for a sports event or similar official function provided by the Supply and Transport Organisation. Indeed, an official trip to the Royal Tournament by recruits at H.M.S. St. Vincent was undertaken by the 'Southdown' company. 750 sailors, about 19 coaches I seem to remember.