Ag. crash

[jim63]

This was the guy I was working for,and would like to ask a question.In the report it says the helicopter was vibrating,then the gen. light was on,what does that mean? Did the engine just shut off when that particular light comes on? Sounds to me something was about to break with the vibs.
I was with him once when he started the heli and after just a short while he said the temp was kind of high.We opened the cowl up while it was running and we seen that a snap ring had come out of it's groove on a small pipe on the side of the engine.He tried to put it back in,but it wouldn't so we went and worked it untill the day was done.He told me everytime he landed that it was HOT.That was fixed the next day by a mech.Here is the report on his crash
http://rc.runryder.com/fastphoto/3509/LIVE_p0202_02wocrash2_standalone_prod_affiliate_11.jpg
NTSB Identification: WPR10LA126
14 CFR Part 137: Agricultural
Accident occurred Tuesday, February 02, 2010 in Escalon, CA
Aircraft: ARROW FALCON EXPORTERS INC OH-58A, registration: N9286U
Injuries: 1 Serious.
This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.
On February 2, 2010, about 1400 Pacific standard time, an Arrow Falcon Exporters OH-58A helicopter, N9286U, landed hard in an orchard shortly after takeoff near Escalon, California. Cavanagh Flying Service was operating the helicopter under the provisions of Title 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 137 as an aerial application flight. The certificated commercial pilot sustained serious injuries. The helicopter sustained substantial damage. The local flight departed from an orchard near Escalon. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed, and no flight plan had been filed.

According to the fuel truck driver, while fueling the helicopter prior to the flight, the pilot reported that the helicopter was vibrating. The pilot then took off in the helicopter, and while departing the area relayed over the radio that the generator light was illuminated. Shortly thereafter he relayed the message, "I'm going down."

The helicopter impacted terrain, sustaining substantial damage to the entire fuselage structure.

The wreckage was recovered for further examination.

[Non-PC Plod]

Here's a tip-

If this guy flies aircraft KNOWING they are unserviceable (because bits have come off the engine which he cant put back on, or because its vibrating and warning lights are iluminated)

Dont fly with him.

I bl**dy wouldnt!

I dont know this aircraft but generators are either turned by the main gearbox or by the engines. If the gen fail light comes on, it means the generator isnt working. If the Gen fail light comes on and the aircraft is shaking itself to death, its very likely to be a symptom of something a lot more serious gouing on with the engine or transmission.

[FH1100 Pilot]

A helicopter that's vibrating? OH MY GOD!!

There are a couple of "dirty little secrets" in aviation. One of them is that ag aircraft are not maintained like Microsoft's S-76. At some operators, maintenance is...err, "dodgy." You do what you've got to do to get the job done. Fussy, nervous, "white shirt" pilots who write up torn seat cushions and ground the aircraft for any little reason need not apply. Operators such as these attract employees who understand that ag is, well, ag.

[/editorial mode.]

The accident aircraft is reported to be a Falcon ("civilianized") OH-58A. That would indicate to me that it had in it a 250-C18 engine which, let's face it, is not a viable powerplant anymore despite what the legion of C-18 operators out there will tell you to the contrary.

Jim63 makes a first-hand report that this very aircraft had of the snap rings on one of the transfer tubes had come undone, allowing an air leak. And yes, that will result in a VERY hot running engine. ...An engine, mind you, that doesn't have a whole lot of TOT to spare in the first place.

In the accident on 2Feb, it appears that the pilot did report the generator failure shortly before crashing. A newspaper picture I saw of that accident showed the main rotor blades fairly intact, indicating low rpm upon arrival at the crash site. This might point toward some sort of prior power interruption to the rotor.

Look, all helicopters vibrate. Mine does. What's "horrible and grounding" to one pilot is "acceptable for flight" to another. It's fairly subjective until you can get the vibration gear on it. But some pilots do put up with a lot before they get to the point of demanding something be done. One would hope that a pilot didn't put up with so much vibration that it actually caused a structural failure of some sort.

Back to the editorial mode. I don't like ag work. Every ag operator I've ever seen has been shady. The equipment is rough. It might look like a helicopter, but it ain't. The aircraft become industrial farm implements. As long as they start and get off the ground, they're good-to-go. During the working season, any "maintenance" that is performed is usually hasty and crude. Or deferred until...later.

In the U.S., the FAA usually doesn't go after ag operators with much aggresiveness. The danger to the public is small. When a crash occurs it's usually out in a field. No one gets hurt except the pilot, who has accepted the risks that go along with that type of flying. Which is why I don't do it.

So back to the subject of this thread: An ag helicopter with reportedly dodgy maintenance crashed. Is anyone surprised? Nope. The pilot lived to fly another day, and another aircraft will be procured for him to do it in.

:zzz:

[Ned-Air2Air]

Bob,

Maybe ag operators on over there in the USA are looked down on in most other countries they are treated the same as other operators. I would say that about 95% of all ag operators I have visited around the world run pretty good operations and maintenance is done when needed. Joe Faram's B3 that he had here on ag work in NZ you could have eaten off the transmission decking it was kept that clean.

Here are some pics from some of those I have visited and to me they dont look like clapped out old machines.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g100/KiwiNed/Misc/gg410.jpg

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g100/KiwiNed/Misc/gg409.jpg

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g100/KiwiNed/Civil%20Thread%20Images/110.jpg

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g100/KiwiNed/Civil%20Thread%20Images/120.jpg

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g100/KiwiNed/Civil%20Thread%20Images/25.jpg

[Ned-Air2Air]

Couple more for you. :ok:

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g100/KiwiNed/Civil%20Thread%20Images/68.jpg

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g100/KiwiNed/Civil%20Thread%20Images/9.jpg

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g100/KiwiNed/Civil%20Thread%20Images/coch005.jpg

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g100/KiwiNed/Civil%20Thread%20Images/faramsprayturn.jpg

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g100/KiwiNed/Civil%20Thread%20Images/nelson5.jpg

[FH1100 Pilot]

Ned- as usual, great shots of some pretty aircraft. But in all honestly I've never seen such nice machines here in the states. Now, like all generalizations, I could be wrong. I'm no expert on the ag industry. There could be operators out there who keep their ships in nice shape. It's just that the ones I've seen in my travels run some pretty rough equipment (f/w and rotary) - NOTHING like those in your pics. In this country, ag-flying is less like aviation and more like farming.

[Ned-Air2Air]

Fair enough Bob, I can only make my judgements on those outside the USA that I have seen. Saying that I did shoot a guy near SD that had a pretty nice 206B but that was some years ago, not sure if he is still around though.

Ned

[rick1128]

Having been around ag aviation off and on for many years, I have seen both schools of the industry here in the USA. The first school is like FH110 has seen, 'it's just a tractor, a little faster that's all'. And the group that understands that while it is a fast tractor, it can kill you if you're not careful and take some precautions.

Three operators of the first school that I have known, didn't last too long. One didn't have enough aircraft and crashed in the field he was spraying, burning to death. Another, who 'knew' more than his mechanic, died when the engine quit in a turn. And the final one went out of business after losing 2 aircraft.

The operator I know of the 2nd school, while his aircraft were never what one would call pretty, hired the best mechanic he could, paid him reasonably well and let him do his job. If it wasn't right, it's not right and it needs to be fixed. While it may cost you a little bit to fix it right and right now, it costs you less than waiting until something breaks. They didn't wash their aircraft every night, more like once a month if it needed or not.

Ag aviation in this country at least, still operates to some extent on a man's word and handshake. And farmers do understand that things do break and need repairs and that farm safety is important. And despite the industrialization of the farm, farms still tend to be family oriented so it is important that everyone goes home at night in one piece.

[wulfman76]

Great pics Ned! quite the variety of a/c too.

I have to agree with Rick on this one. A few run un-maintained junk. These are usually the ones that get by on a shoestring or go out of business after a few years.

The others, and i think the majority, understand the concept of pay a little now or alot later. Granted they may not have a shiney new paint job or the newest gadgets but they get the job done.

FH1100, you may be right about the c-18, but of the 4 Arrow Falcon OH-58's i'm familiar with all had the c-20B. That doesn't really change the fact that he was running hot and probably knew something was wrong.

[jim63]

Those are some nice crop sprayers,his was nothing like that,it looked like the army had just got done with it and it was painted white by someone learning to paint.It looked good from 4 or 500 feet away,then you couldn't see where the oil was being blown down the side of it.

The snap ring on the transfer tube was fixed before he crashed,but on the day the snap ring was rattling around on the tube the a/c left his house and we went to work 40 or 50 miles from there.It was when we got back that we waited for a mechanic get off work and come out to fix it.
I think he tried to keep it in good flying condition because it was his own helicopter,but probably not as good as it should have been.The day the mechanic was there,I remember he took a broken de icer off and said he really didn't need that part.There are a few helicopter sprayers around here and they do seem to crash alot more than others,and that's not because they are running into stuff.
The pilot(Bill Cavanagh)broke his back,3 fingers,punctured lungs,broke ribs,and had a ripped Aorta.

[Ned-Air2Air]

Just a few more pics of ag machines as I look through my files.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g100/KiwiNed/Heli%20Ops/a5.jpg

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g100/KiwiNed/Heli%20Ops/a3-1.jpg

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g100/KiwiNed/HeliTorque/air2air_460.jpg

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g100/KiwiNed/HeliTorque/air2air_641.jpg

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g100/KiwiNed/HeliTorque/air2air_594.jpg

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g100/KiwiNed/HeliTorque/air2air_677.jpg

[206dvr]

Jeez I get bl....dy annoyed at crisp white shirted, tie wearing pilots putting ag pilots down! Sure we may be down among the weeds and wires all day and come home with mud on our boots, but for sheer skill and hard work you'd be hard pressed to beat one of the ag bretheren. Not only are we thinking about flying the helicopter , but your mind is more on where the spray is going, what the bucket is up to, or where those wires are running. As for our crusty old pieces of crap we strap to our backs every morning I dare you to find a smarter looking or better maintained 300 in this country than the one in my hangar. I'd put a photo in here but can't work the technology! or for that matter the 500E I just got rid of. There is no way most of us would strap on a piece of crap machine to do the work we do in such a challenging low level environment. Now go back to your nice little office in the sky!

[Ag-Rotor]

Thanks for your pic's and input into this discussion Ned, I am very proud to be a player in this industry. Success in the Ag industry is not a given, it comes to those operators with good equipment, 1st rate maintenance scheduels and highly skilled pilots.

[ascj]

i dont suppose you know who makes the gear on the red 44 eh ned?

[Ned-Air2Air]

Not sure as I know Cochrane Ag Air was sold to one of the bigger companies. I will see if I can find out.

I know Simplex now have a system for the R44 and just sold the first one into China. If you want contact there let me know and will intro you to the Pres - Steve Daniels. They might be keen to give you a good deal to get one out there in Aus.

Ned

[Ned-Air2Air]

Ag-Rotor,

I have always enjoyed the ag industry. When I was a kid I used to wag school and cycle out to Ardmore and go flying with Greg Barrow, Nicky Barrow, Neville Stevenson etc in the Marine Helicopters days when they operated a bunch of 300s, a Lama and the first D model on ag work. Thats back some 25 years ago.

Ned

[Ag-Rotor]

Ned
I have spent a fair bit of time spraying in 500's, those in your pic's look exceptional. It is an experience for a pilot most only dream of.

[Ned-Air2Air]

I always enjoy shooting pics of the ag machines as early morning provides some great lighting which results in awesome images and working with the different lighting angles is always fun.

Cheers

Ned

[ascj]

thanks for the offer ned i dont have a need for one unfortunatly. i just noticed its not the helipod/simplex gear..

[Ned-Air2Air]

My first guess is it might be one that Roger Maisey in Taupo made, or like a lot of kiwi stuff, made by the operator. :ok:

[Semi Rigid]

Agrotor
Don't believe everything you see. 'Dulux' overhauls can easily obscure a 'piece of cheese' helicopter. ZK-HOM case in point (the H500D pic taken at dawn with the WARS rego 'A' on the side)
Sure looks are pleasant but I would rather be chugging around in something that hadn't been dinged and panel beaten to fit into the jig again and had genuine hours logged against the drive components.

[Scissorlink]

Agrotor
Don't believe everything you see. 'Dulux' overhauls can easily obscure a 'piece of cheese' helicopter. ZK-HOM case in point (the H500D pic taken at dawn with the WARS rego 'A' on the side)
Sure looks are pleasant but I would rather be chugging around in something that hadn't been dinged and panel beaten to fit into the jig again and had genuine hours logged against the drive components.

Thats why B3's arn't popular on Ag work...you cant rip the hours off :cool:

[Ag-Rotor]

That wouldn't be the only reason, you would need a serious business plan and work to back it up, to use a B'3 on Ag work

[emsmech]

Jim63
according to what I heard, he landed then, took on fuel and chemicals then took off again with a known problem. why would he take off with known issues with his aircraft.