100 pilot's sick in EK A/C on ground.. LACK OF CREW!!! [Archive]

pool

4th Mar 2010, 11:42

McGreaser

Has it occured to you that these guys might genuinly be fatigued or sick??? Therefore only doing their professional duty as per FOM and call in sick???
I very much think that this is the case, as most guys i fly with are fine professionals, only lead by unprofessional managers.
The real danger and the problems comes from the latter, make no mistake. It is NOT the problem of the sick or fatigued as to who will eventually fly their flights or not. If aircraft stay on ground it's the fault of EK!
The fault of pilots only sets in if they went on operating when fatigued or sick and this applies to those on reserve just as much.

We all feel the pinch of fatigue the new shafting of EK puts upon us. No wonder sickness rate increases.

Note: Funny enough to read AS's whinging about captains having to better manage the mess EKs mismanagers are constantly concocting! As tired as we all are, every delay or diversion pushing us into discretion immediatly, it is only human that we couldn't care less about this mess. Yes, we know that the customers expect more from the company and they pay for our service, but we simply run out of energy and motivation to stand in for those who create the mess but take the profit share, leaving us alone with 18.6% school fee increase etc. etc..
It is now only up to them to provide the manpower and eventually the T&Cs to mend the fences.

Marcellus Wallace

4th Mar 2010, 17:35

MTOW
"ManaAda's user name would lead anyone with even a passing knowledge of Bahasa Malay to come to the conclusion that he might be Malaysian. (The name, which i'll leave him to explain lest I offend if I did, is a play on the national airline's initials.)

If that's the case, he may be one of the many Malaysian's who took a little too enthusiastically to the views of the ex Prime Minister of that country, the good Dr M, who often and repeatedly blamed Australians for every woe and misfortune that befell his lovely country."

I seriously doubt ManaAdaSystem is Malaysian. Ex-MAS/MH expat most likely. Not one of us-lah.

With his 10K hours and P1 on B737 EFIS but no LHS on Widebody I doubt he's Malaysian unless he jumped ship to AirAsia. Most Malaysian Nationals with that amount of total time would be now LHS widebody in MAS/MH.

McGreaser

4th Mar 2010, 17:45

Pool.........nice to see your rather passionate answer:ok: But did you actually read what l posted ?

Take another read .......and comment appropriately:hmm:

A320PLT

4th Mar 2010, 21:01

WOW!!! EK has gotton that bad??? I was turned down from even interviewing with EK two yrs ago due to having incomplete right bundle branch. Now this is nothing more than an eletrical impulse in the heart and I still hold a first class medical here in the USA with no issues or restrictions. Many people have it and dont even know it and it doesnt always show on an ekg. Well about three weeks ago I get this email from them asking me to reapply and thought nothing of it until now.

A320PLT

allaru

4th Mar 2010, 23:42

You can get ManaAdaSystem out of the kampung but ya can't get the kampumg out of the ManaAdaSystem!!

flynhigh

5th Mar 2010, 01:18

Guys
The email everyone got as to reapply was sent to everyone who had application on file with them. it was computer generated...it doesn't really mean they want to interview you...My friend with 3000 hours total time got the same email just because he had a application in the system. Good Luck to all.

pool

5th Mar 2010, 06:20

McGreaser

Sorry, one should never post redeyed after a Variation1 flight ....
Just shows how safe we operate nowadays.

NEWYEAR

5th Mar 2010, 08:46

I gree with you. So that´s the meaning, one of them...Diana:ok:

You get a bull`s eye:D

So, they have to contract to fly, more than 100 pilots right now:eek:

;)

Chandler Bing

6th Mar 2010, 02:43

Same same south down the road.

So short of crews both seats on A320 that they have to cancel sim sessions to cover flights, because of pilots calling sick.

On top of that, A320 trainers resign as well as others on other fleets, but officialy the attrition rate is very low ( 20% of the A320 trainers and a few more to come ..... low my a:mad:s ....)

halas

6th Mar 2010, 08:36

The portal does tell you....:hmm:

halas

what_goes_up

6th Mar 2010, 08:39

Where did you get this number from? Portal doesn't give SK option. Did you ring crew control?
Mfan
It does for SKF not SK
Oh yes it does... if you know where to look at... :)
59 CMD and 43 FO

NEWYEAR

6th Mar 2010, 10:06

In other airlines...4% or 5% is not normal. For instance, a small Cia with 50 pilots and 5 planes. 4% 5%, means 2 pilots sick:eek:

They can not permit for mamy reasons. The most important SAFETY:ugh:

Metro man

6th Mar 2010, 12:33

The email everyone got as to reapply was sent to everyone who had application on file with them.

I had an application in which I didn't bother to keep current and allowed it to lapse ages ago. I had already forgotten about it. Still I get an email asking me (experienced A320 F/O) to apply.

Surely if it was that great they would have hundreds of suitable candidates knocking at the door and wouldn't need to chase up people who applied years ago ?

From what I gather, even a low cost in a civilised country is a better bet ?

IXNAT

6th Mar 2010, 14:42

Hey, I've been here a number of years and I even got a letter to apply a couple of weeks ago. Wait, maybe I'm really not here and this is just a bad dream.

777boyindubai

7th Mar 2010, 03:49

Hi IXNAT,

How cool is that? It means you get to do double the hours for half the pay! :{

For those thinking of applying to EK, please think carefully!!

atpcliff

8th Mar 2010, 11:44

Hi!

EK is desperate for pilots now, and it will just get worse monthly. I would not be surprised if they start hiring DECs again, and soon.

They emailed something to every email in their database. They asked the pilots to tell any of their pilot friends.

What happened to EK was the normal cyclical pattern of earth. The economy went down, so EK quit hiring, and started saving money on operational costs, like assigning the pilots 92 hour schedules. Conditions at EK have gotten worse, just like a lot of other places.

BUT, EK doesn't have a contract, so they can just cut whatever they want.

THEN, EK got 10 -380s unexpectedly from Qantas, at the same time the economy started to improve. So: Many crews are leaving EK now, as they are fed up, AND there is now somewhere for them to go to. These new airplanes, that were unexpected, need new crews quickly. Then, EK has the normal new planes coming in that they always had.

Because the crews are already schd to 92 hours, they can't just assign them to cover open trips, or guys who get sick... there is NO slack in the schedule!

So, things are snowballing, and with the way the economy is going, more and more places are hiring, which will make it more difficult for EK to get guys, more guys will leave EK, which will make it worse for those there, which means more guys leave, etc., etc.

I have read several posters that say Capts that are leaving are getting paid WAY above normal, with preferential schedules, if they will postpone their departure for XXX amount of time. This also makes things worse, because the guys who stay see the leavers getting big money, and good schedules. The guys who stay have to work even worse schedules, which makes them want to leave.

Currently in the US:
Lots of the regionals are now hiring, starting to hire, or will hire soon.
Virgin America, Atlas, and Southern are hiring. AirTran is starting interviews again this month and will be hiring. It looks like Delta and JetBlue will hire this year, with JB starting in soon. Allegient just bought 757s and may be starting hiring again soon.

EK will HAVE to lower their recruiting standards, AND start improving things for their pilots, if they want to avoid big manning problems.

cliff
NBO

BigGeordie

8th Mar 2010, 11:55

I don't think it will be as simple as just hiring DECs. With the reputation EK has acquired I can't imagine anybody with the required experience wanting to come. Would they hire DECs with less experience than they demand from their own F/Os for upgrade? You now need thousands of hours on an Emirates type to get to the left hand seat. No more hiring DECs who have only flown 737s in Europe as they did last time- and this is definitely a hole they have dug for themselves!

freddi16

8th Mar 2010, 13:00

Hi think there are a lot of qualified f.o in ek to be consider for upgrade as cpt,why the are not take into consideration?
There are some upgrading course in progress?

Kamelchaser

8th Mar 2010, 14:53

Question;.why bother?

Your package is pretty much the same..why would you come to EK????? Have you not read what's happening here?

Life must be pretty crap for you to consider moving to EK from a reasonable paying job like that!

CAVnotOK

8th Mar 2010, 14:58

Doesn't he need time on EK type for DEC??

BigGeordie

8th Mar 2010, 15:51

EK F/Os need time on type for the upgrade. I'm sure they wouldn't have one rule for their own crews and another for DECs, would they? Perish the thought, that would be like a unilateral change in terms and conditions....:ugh:

groundspolier

8th Mar 2010, 20:47

Hi everyone, I just was notified for an interview date later this month, what can you say about the process. I have read all the comments and would like to know if this is worth coming over to do? thank you

atpcliff

9th Mar 2010, 00:56

Hi!

ricfly744: EK does not have any -400s. The one's you see that are painted "Emirates SkyCargo" are Atlas planes, operated by Atlas on lease to EK.

EK used to hire DECs, but don't now. They have lots of FOs that are qualified for Capt upgrade, ESPECIALLY if they change the requirements back to what they used to be.

It IS hard to pull a bunch of FOs offline to upgrade them when they are all on 92 hour block schedules, with no one available to fly reserve in their place.

EK's manning situation will get worse month by month for the foreseeable future, in my opinion.

cliff
NBO

allaru

9th Mar 2010, 03:50

Rickfly 744

Firstly although the 744 is listed as an EK aircraft, they are not operated by us, and as far as I know the hours don't count as EK type hours for the purpose of DEC or upgrade.

Your assumption of 80hours probably indicates that you have little idea of what is to come. Work on 95 minimum but then take away the following hidden charges.
Medical – yes you pay
Provident fund – yes you contribute and its compulsory
Telephone charges – outrageously expensive and is deducted from your pay
Fines for missed appointment at the clinic
Emirates national ID (compulsory and you pay)
Top up beer money at many destinations as allowances rarely cover proper meals let alone a few beers, in some places we get no allowances at all)
Very expensive visa charges for maids and helpers (don't need one, well lets see after you arrive when you misses has to spend 3 hours in traffic everyday taking kids to school and doing admin.)

As for the furloughed guy asking about EK it largely depends on if your prepared to jump the bond. If you think you may need to return to the UAE in the future then jumping the bond is probably not an option and you'll be stuck for 3 years, after that they have 3 years worth of your provident fund should you decide to walk without paying your bills

If you think your not likely to come back later you could give it a try, get the training, and experience, then if you don't like it take a page out of the emirates school of management and don't honor your contract, and do a runner.(like many have before you) .

To any prospective employee the following have been done to death so listen, learn, and don't ask about them later.

Don't come here expecting to get commuting rosters..its not going to happen,
Don't come here expecting to get off shore bases..its not going to happen,
Don't come here expecting to bid flights to get home..its not going to happen the bidding systems a joke,
Don't come here expecting to save money because there's no tax and everything is free and provided by the company..its not going to happen, as an FO with kids you'll barely make ends meet
Don't come here expecting to bid and fly long haul and get 18 days off a month..its not going to happen, they have bidding restrictions, and days off restrictions to make sure it doesn't happen.
Don't come here expecting to get use of the jump seat to get too or from home ..its not going to happen (crew are not permitted to use the jump seat for this purpose)
Don't come here expecting your contract not to change..it will change, and usually for the worse,
Don't come here talking about unions, associations and the like, you'll be on the first fight out of here,
Don't come here expecting to get your contracted 3 percent pay increment..we didn't get it last year, and its unlikely we'll get it this year.

Be aware that as far as the Arab locals here are concerned you are a slave just like the maids, drivers, ditch diggers, and ass wipers, who make up 97 percent of Dubai's population, and 83 percent of the UAEs, and if you are not prepared to accept that, don't come.

And lastly don't come here if your a DEC expecting to cuff it. The EK operation is comprehensive and extensive, if you don't have significant wide body, and international airline experience you won't cut it, failure rates are high.

Hope this helps

skytrax

9th Mar 2010, 09:25

there are around 1200 pilots. 100 would be almost 10% if not more, considering the guys that are on leave or training.

sanddude

9th Mar 2010, 10:45

SKY

Your saying that at any given time there are 1200 guys on leave or in traing? :ugh:. Better get your fact rights. Anyway a sickness rate of 5% is not that a big deal. Will get worse though:=

ManaDubai

9th Mar 2010, 20:31

Emirates has been the fastest growing and most succsesful airline of the 21st century, and I am sure we will continue to be so. Our business model has proven to be sustainable even in difficult times, and we are a healthy and profitable company unlike many of our competitors.

That being said I dont think everything is perfect in our airline, but I think its very sad that many of you who contribute to this forum use it to vent off frustration. Your behaviour hurts the airlines reputation, and makes it difficult to hire new employees that is needed for further growth, prosperity and wellbeing for all of us. It also creates an impression of EK that in my mind is simply not correct, this in turn hurts our public image and in the longterm such behaviour can hurt the companys profitabillity and as a consequence your job security. We are a community and we should let disagreements within stay within, and I think negative contributors about EK on this forum should think more about that.

It would be much more productive if you tried to take your complaints to the manager in charge of the area you have problems with. They try to do a good job and is open minded to your feedback and wants to run the best possible airline, which I assume that you want as well.

ernestkgann

9th Mar 2010, 21:43

I think the Middle East Management videos answer those questions and concerns Manathemanagement.

EKBemused

9th Mar 2010, 22:33

Dear Mana,
I absolutely agree, Emirates will continue to be the fastest growing airline in the world.
It is because no one in the developed wolrd can hire slaves.
What do you get for AED 700 in this world, a w###e for a night, if you are in the Far East?
Emirates middle managers get less than baggage handlers in Europe. Yes it will grow because slavery is acceptable here, and there are too many starving people in the world to abuse.
Regardless of how many of us bi##h here, it will make no differance to the growth of Emirates, so do not worry my friend. You will always have a great job, while your fellow co workers are Fu##ed for AED 700 a month.

a345xxx

9th Mar 2010, 23:16

Mana Dubai!!!! Hey this is not some 3rd world country like Myanmar or Zimbabwe! Everyone has the right just like you, however telling people what to say and write is akin to censorship and a dictatorial regime. Very simple if you don't like what you see , don't look and if you don't like what you read start a new anti PPrune website and get everyone to boycott PPrune. Its your right but don't come here and play the high and almighty!

RoyHudd

9th Mar 2010, 23:44

Dubai is indeed Third World, a medieval cesspit with a superficial Western make-over. Everyone knows that.;)

Schibulsky

10th Mar 2010, 01:41

They try to do a good job and is open minded to your feedback
Joke of the day!:D
Your behaviour hurts the airlines reputation, and makes it difficult to hire new employees
That's what the :mad: management is doing at the moment, don't mix up reporting a problem with causing it!!!
Anyway, with your attitude you could become a perfect EK management tool....or are you already? :E
btw...heard of freedom of opinion lately? :ugh:

Fart Master

10th Mar 2010, 02:06

ManaDubai AKA.........??? Bless.... do you not like our comments, maybe if EK had the decency to stop screwing us around we wouldn't complain.

"Take your complaints to your manager", Dude you are living in some parallel universe! They couldn't give a sh*t about our comments or morale.

It's your first post here so I suspect you are a management stooge/brown noser or you haven't suceeded with your previous handle poss ManaAdasystem?

Marooned

10th Mar 2010, 02:26

It would be much more productive if you tried to take your complaints to the manager in charge of the area you have problems with

WE HAVE!!! Come on you cannot be serious:

Fatigue: We've told you there's a problem, we submit ASRs, you do a 'study' which you then ignore. You order aircraft with inadequate rest facilities then boll**k us for walking to the coffins in our PJs.

We make a decision on the line which is constantly second guessed by management who hide behind a desk because they don't want to fly the insane rosters, over controlling and woefully under-supporting.

You sack pilots without any due process or even compassion in some cases.

You arbitrarily change terms and conditions, reduce contractual pay entitlements, increase flight times whilst reducing rest, evict us from accommodation at short notice to move to the cheaper stuff you've managed to find.

The list goes on but all of the above YOU, the management, are fully aware of and have done sweet FA about. Why? It costs! That's why we are so 'profitable' because you have failed to invest in your infrastructure in the pursuit of profit... the short term gain and now here's the long term pain. Everything behind the glossy facade in EK is on the cheap & it is unsustainable.

Do you really think anyone has any faith in 'taking their problem to a manager' who cannot make any decision without fearing for his own job? It just never gets us anywhere. There is no 'trust' anymore as you have abused it so often. All smiles and graces at the road-shows and interviews then once you are here (committed you and your family to a completely different way of life, left any job security you may have had), you cynically spout the EK mantra 'if you don't like it leave'.

And now you want to give the impression that we are some kind of cooperative, that we're all in it together while WE make record profits for YOU in the good and bad times but you still scr*w us into the ground.

The truth is out there and do not blame the pilots for the bad press YOU have created.

YOU have painted yourselves in to a corner, Catch 22; Pilots are less inclined to join and more than a few are looking to leave. To address the fatigue issue in particular you need to have more pilots, not just enough to cover the line flights but enough to have some flex and reduce rosters to a more humane lower cap. However without improving the Ts & Cs YOU have eroded you won't get them. Those still here will work even harder and the problems will escalate.

The solution to all of this is with YOU not us. PPrune is the symptom not the cause, YOU are! As soon as YOU come to terms with this the sooner we might actually move forward.

Our business model has proven to be sustainable even in difficult times, and we are a healthy and profitable company unlike many of our competitors.

Sustainable? NO. Healthy? NO. Profitable? No doubt, but the profits are made off the backs of the underpaid & overworked throughout the company.

CohibaFlyer

10th Mar 2010, 02:29

Mana, I fly down the road. I thought like you......tell management the problem and how they aren't honoring the contract. Show them studies about fatigue and how it harms the safety of flight to have us flying nights then days. Guess what, They don't care. I am finding it's the way of the Middle East. No one gives a Rats A@% as long as its not happening to them or their still getting their pay. If EK is worried about the reputation maybe they should change the practices of management.

Embraer314

10th Mar 2010, 03:12

allaru,

Thank you for your post, your information was very helpful and stopped me from making a big mistake.

Desert Dawg

10th Mar 2010, 04:23

I was going to write a long post about the appearance of a new PPRuNer called Mana Dubai.... I deleted the long text and decided to say

"Mana Dubai is either very brave, or very stupid for trying to expound the virtues of EK on these forums"

'Nuff said!

seagoll

10th Mar 2010, 05:52

manadubai,
you must be Deaf,D*mb and Blind.The only other option is management with your head in the sand...see above.

Praise Jebus

10th Mar 2010, 07:08

Mana, welcome to PPrune, as you can now see it can be a brutal place at times where some posters like to eat their young. I am sure your comments were meant to be genuine but they portrayed an ignorance of the current situation. Our management (you), have detailed access to what makes the pilot group tick. Files and files of data gathered from our recruitment, from the psych interviews we complete each time we change a position. So I have to ask, knowing all this, why are you so surprised by our reactions to the forced negative changes over the recent years? Didn't anyone think to ask the army of HR staff what will be the reaction?

Another pilot at a meeting I attended last year made an interesting point that I will try and correctly recall . He noted how the pilot group are infact not part of the EK community at all. They are more an "absent workforce" who come and go through the basement of the bouncy castle (EGHQ) with little if any interaction with the rest of the company. They interact more with station managers down route than with their own Fleet Managers. Pilots are told that their positon is an integral part of the company management structure when this is simply not the case. A pilot takes no part in any management process outside his cockpit. This work environment (absent) leads the pilot group to mistrust and resent their managers. This is brought about by the isolation and lack of involvement in anything that has to do with their continued employment conditions. How can you not see this? Is this not taught at Airline Management 101?

You are right about one thing, this is not unique to EK, it is common with other airlines as well. Would'nt it be encouraging if EK managment actually did something about it. So now you have all the negative posts on PPrune, but it wasn't always that way. As a new Ppruner you will not remember that pre circa 2003, negative comments were few and far between and this Forum was a great recruitment add for EK. If a pilot asked what EK was like, the reply was quite simply, "no one leaves". I don't like the negative comments, I want to feel some pride when I tell another airline pilot that I work for EK, but I'm afraid to say that they have a bit of a laugh at me these days.

So the next time you are overlooking the Atrium to get a glimpse of your favourite Bollywood star, or a sponsored Premier League football team or to see if there is a free table at Costa so you can chat with other collegues in the EK community, have a thought for the worker ants passing through the basement to and from their aircraft 24/7.

Community? I took a 15% pay cut last year to help the company, how much did you give up?

White Knight

10th Mar 2010, 08:20

PJ - that sir is beautifully put and very eloquent:ok::ok:

trimotor

10th Mar 2010, 09:01

Hear, hear.

TM

PS. Particularly liked the last bit, about the pay aspect to help the company (and, as I recall, to show that Flt Ops were leading the way and setting the example) - still waiting to see what pain the rest of the company's equally sharing, apart from working harder.

nolimitholdem

10th Mar 2010, 09:49

Mana, there's a great quote from the current Economist for those who would shoot the messengers instead of addressing the issues:

YOU CAN'T BLAME THE MIRROR FOR YOUR UGLY FACE!

Emirates and Dubai have massive spin machines backed by endless money to try and portray the image they want to. It doesn't change the reality behind the image.

dustyprops

10th Mar 2010, 10:54

Hey Roy Hudd,

When did you get down here mate? That's quite a statement about the place :rolleyes:

ManaDubai

10th Mar 2010, 11:31

To those of you who have answered my post in a productive and respectable way, thank you.

I am totally supporting freedom of speech, but freedom of speech does not mean to say whatever you think about your employer at all times, especially when there are better and more adequate ways of dealing with your problems than voicing them in a internet forum.

I have now read through most recent EK threads, and find it troubling that while you are criticizing me for trying to correct EKs image on this forum, the majority of contributors to this forum acts like a bullying mob whenever it comes a EK employee (ore others) who voice a positive opinion about the company and how it is to work there. That is not good conduct, and I find it ironic that the same people are raising the freedom of speech flag if anyone dares to challenge their worldview.

I have been accused of being a paid slave (EKBemused) and living life in luxury, not giving up anything for the community (Praise Jebus). All EK staff is paid competitive wages to attract the best people to our airline. Many who works in EKs management department are expats just like yourself who come here to get a standard of living and possibilities that are better than home.

EK is a company that has one thing in common with all other companies around the world. It exists to make a profit for its shareholders. Companies who don’t follow that logic are doomed for bankrupt ion unless they are subsidized by their owners. Unlike many of our European competitors Ek, does not and will not receive any subsidizes and therefore has to be a profitable company to survive and ensure its long-term survival. If EK didn’t do this they would not be able to offer anyone safe and secure jobs.

To ensure this we have all had to accept some sacrifices in the last difficult years. I see that you are displeased about the capping of your energy allowance, this change applies to everyone and we are all in this together. In all honesty I can’t understand how you think it’s fair that everyone should pay for a few peoples largesse and shedding. Would you rather like this money to be saved elsewhere? EK is trying its best to operate a great airline that passengers enjoy to fly with, and that employees enjoy to work for, but when times are though and cuts needs to be taken then we all have to bear our share of the burden.

The reason that I was voicing my opinion is that I felt that the image created of EK at this forum does not resemble the real EK I experience every day. My impression is that most of EKs employees are very happy with their jobs, and that they are proud of what we have achieved and how far we have come.

Regarding your comments about EKs management I am very disappointed of the views you are expressing. Just like you EKs management is just people. Just like you EKs management wants to do a good job. Just like you EKs management wants to run a great airline. In order to achieve this EKs management understands that it needs its pilots, cabin crew and ground staff to have good working conditions and competitive compensation. Despite some adjustments in the recent years, there is no doubt that what EK has to offer is highly competitive in the international market, and it will continue to be so to ensure the further growth and profitability of EK.

RoyHudd

10th Mar 2010, 11:56

Been down DXB a few times. Also got a few mates at EK, who have been there for years, and they have shaped my opinion. I'm talking about the locals and their laws, along with the absence of protection for the mass of overseas workers. I'm particularly critical of the way lower-paid immigrant workers are treated. Which is starting to include aircrew.

Don't be offended, dustyprops; my comments are echoed around these threads.

(And there are some good bits to Dubai too, to be fair)

Taylor01

10th Mar 2010, 13:54

Praise Jebus......:ok:That was beautiful man!

Taylor01

10th Mar 2010, 14:20

Mana,

What shareholders? It seems that the only one that profits when we profit is upper management. As far as our employees making as much as other, HA! You need to get out more often and ask around the world. The mere wages paid to our rampers and other ground staff would have them on welfare in most countries. However, I do understand that the pay they receive is more than they would get in most of their home countries, but don't compare apples to oranges, at least not here. Remeber most of us and the peolpe who read this are semi-educated. Maybe everyone you run into your office is happy, but, if h*ll freezes over and someday we get a jumpseat back, I will meet you at 3 am going to India and I would like to introduce you to 16 or so people who are very representative of the real work force that holds this place together, don't get me wrong, alot of people keep this place going, but without these 16 people on every flight, there would be no flight. A previous post said there was no negative post before 2003, I think, well only 3.5 years ago there wasn't any either. This forums has been a place for some crap to flow, but the truth is sometimes hard to handle, isn't it. I hope you are management and take some of this information you read on here to someone that can help us. We came here because it was great and we use to tell all our friends about it. But for now we just can't. When there are so many companys offering commuting rosters, and don't tell me we couldn't. What can you offer someone these days? A contract that seems to be worthless. Rosters that make us all fly around like zombies??? Please give us something.....Oh yeah job security you say. Is that worth you health..Please make this like it use to be... Thanks, I now yeild to my next colleague.:ugh:

Fly safe everyone...and get plenty of rest!

Watchdog

10th Mar 2010, 14:39

Surely folks, Mana and his/her posts is a wind up!

Nobody in management could be that far detached from the reality to really think that things here are rosy......???

ManaDubai

10th Mar 2010, 15:02

Watchdog: I haven't said that EK was perfect, but just as the world isn't black ore white neither is EK, and this forum seem to only give a one sided negative view of EK that is not correct.

Taylor01: I haven't said that EK ground staff are paid the same as they are in W.Europe/USA, I have said that they pay all their staff competitive wages. If BA/United and so on could hire highly qualified personell with lower wages they would, same applies for EK.

There is no doubt to the fact that pilots, cabin crew and ground staff is essential and play an extremly important role in any airline, and that the airline would stop imideatly if it wasnt for them. In the same way there is no doubt that without management any airline would stop. EK is not interested in using anymore money on management than needed, and implying that all management do is going to the SPA and taking your money is just downright stupid.

White Sausage

10th Mar 2010, 15:12

Well, tell us, Mana: Are you flying? Or are you in the office? Because it seems you don´t have a clue what´s going on. And then please tell me how I can see my children back home with max. 3 days off in a row? I used to until 2 years ago when everything started going south. I was a good company man, but did it help me or my fellow colleagues? NO! So no more good company man, as sad as it is. You need to get your facts right, just because other jobs are worse than ours doesn´t make the constant contract breaches right. :ugh:

Marooned

10th Mar 2010, 15:21

If BA/United and so on could hire highly qualified personell with lower wages they would, same applies for EK.

So at least you admit you pay low wages.

Why not address the other issues mentioned Mana? 78 to 94 hour rosters, less rest, fatigue, less pay (lower than the low you mentioned), no rights, no support... there's plenty to discuss on this forum and your input would be of great interest as it is obvious you are being told to come here and try and offer a more positive spin.

jumbo1

10th Mar 2010, 15:28

Mana
You say that we all share the burden of the utilities cap... sorry to disappoint you but it's only a very small percentage of people that are affected, only because they have no choice as to where they live. If we're all in this together then why doesnt everyone pay a small equal amount towards reducing the utility bill? That would be fair.
Secondly, if the managers are all just doing their jobs, I say that they should all be let go - they have destroyed morale of most of the workforce in this company by outdated and middle age rule by fear practice. They have done this wilfully and without any consideration or interest for the consequences of their actions. Anywhere else in the world a breach of contract would not be allowed - here the attitude is - if you don't like it - leave! Well, many are......
Now they come begging us to recommend our friends, and when we say why would we , we get told if you don't like it, leave! guess what. Many are!!!!!!
Most of what is wrong with this company could be fixed in a day WITH NO COST TO THE COMPANY. But even with a complete management change (when oinks will fly!!) it would take a long long time to build up any trust again.
HOW SAD TO SEE.........
So Mana, take off your very dark glasses and take a good hard look around you, I think you might just get a fright, because you certainly don't work for the same company I do!
Safe Flying all
J

ManaDubai

10th Mar 2010, 15:58

I have now repeatedly made it clear that not everything is perfect at EK, and that problems regarding EK should be taken up with the appropriate manager in charge, not on an internet forum. If you think that writing things at pprune will change how EK operates you are naive.

Yes it is true that due to the difficult economic times the world and as a result EK has been going through the last couple of years, some adjustments to employees compensation has been made. This has been necessary and just measures to reduce costs and ensure EKs long term survival.

The adjustment made to employee’s compensation is as far as I am concerned in line with UAE law, and does not breach any contracts. If you disagree on that point you should take your complaints to the legal system. However the compensation package offered by EK today is still good by international standards.

It is also true that turnover of personnel has gone up at EK recently; this must be seen as a natural development when the world economy is starting to improve. In the last five years EK has doubled the number of passengers carried, and been through a rapid expansion. It is totally natural that some employees get frustrated with how the airline operates when it goes through a period of such rapid expansion. EK has always relied on its employees to be based in Dubai, and its rosters are made up with that predicament in mind. EK understands that if all other factors are equal between EK and your native airlines you would choose to work for them, and that some people decide to quit is perfectly normal.

EK is hiring more staff at the moment to ensure further growth and addressing the issues you are raising, but when people spread negative publicity about EK that is either exaggerated ore simply not true you make the airlines growth difficult, and you make your own job harder.

ws737

10th Mar 2010, 16:39

I have been comtemplating flying for Emirates for some time. I have a lot of friends there and in the past years they were happy, and proud to fly there. Almost all of them have contacted me to warn me of the change of conditions there, that the postings here are the reality of what's going on. I've basically been told that unless I'm umemployed and desperate, not to consider it. I have worked in the Middle East before and knew how things worked but it seemed things were different there, no so it seems.

I have several friends whom have also withdrawn applications and under no circumstances would consider employment at Emerates under the current conditions. I sincerely hope that the lack of qualified applicants, and the shortage of pilots for expansion will wake someone up over there.

I wish everybody there good luck in getting things changed. Maybe if/when they start cancelling flights and pilots start leaving in droves things will improve.

Overtimer997

10th Mar 2010, 17:14

I just cannot believe that the only way to communicate and have any kind of dialogue of any form with Ek management is now through Pprune.

What a shambles.

Is it any wonder this company is heading for rock bottom.

Mana, You are a disgrace.

Fuzz Lightbeer

10th Mar 2010, 17:26

ManaDubai,
As you are obviously a management type and as you are endeavoring to at least post on here in a coherent manner, I will try to reply likewise:

As others have pointed out, the general mood of the pilots at Emirates as evidenced here has not come out of thin air but is the result of a number of actions taken by the company. I would very much like you to respond to these particular points if you can.
1. Mine and other contracts specifically says that Emirates will pay my water and electric bills. It does not say that it will only pay part or up to a certain amount. This is in my contract. Where I come from, to do otherwise is termed a "breach of contract" and is illegal. To add insult to injury, we were not told that this was because time were tough and that we all had to tighten our belts. No, this was for the environment.

2. Mine and other contracts specifically state that I am entitled to 42 days of leave a year yet I have been told that I am really "only entitled to 30 days." Again, that little old thing called a contract comes to mind.

3. When pilots interviewed here, they were shown a certain standard of accommodation and assured that the policy was for a married pilot with children would be provided with a villa. When they showed up, some with as many as 4-5 children were given small 2 bedroom apartments as temporary accommodation. I guess the term temporary is relative as for some it stretched beyond 2 years. Contractual? Perhaps not but where I come from it's called bait and switch and generally refers to the actions of those known as con men and thieves.

4. When those same pilots interviewed here (when the company was fairly desperate for pilots), they were given the criteria for advancement. Many based their decision to move their families thousands of miles away from home on those criteria. When it suited the company, those same criteria were changed, severely disadvantaging the future earning potential of those pilots and their families. Again, contractual - no but the word sleazy comes to mind.

5. Finally for now, lets talk about fatigue. There is not a reputable airline in the world that is flying their pilots the amount of hours and across the numbers of time zones that Emirates is. 94 hours average and most of the line pilots I know are routinely flying trips to the U.S. and Australia in the same month. Now, you don't appear to be a pilot so I'll make this simple for you. You would be wiped out flying as a passenger that much through that many time zones, yet we are required to work to some of the most arcane and unrealistic rules in this or any other industry. Now as you say, a better forum would be for us to take our concerns to our managers. Many of us have tried that and have been rebuffed at every turn. The last time I saw someone bring it up, our fearless leader launched into a speech about us being at the forefront of fatigue management and that other airlines were following our lead. Let's think about this for a second - he didn't even say there was no fatigue, just that we were "managing it". A medical definition of fatigue is:
Definition
Fatigue is physical and/or mental exhaustion that can be triggered by stress, medication, overwork, or mental and physical illness or disease.
Description
Everyone experiences fatigue occasionally. It is the body's way of signaling its need for rest and sleep. But when fatigue becomes a persistent feeling of tiredness or exhaustion that goes beyond normal sleepiness, it is usually a sign that something more serious is amiss.
Physically, fatigue is characterized by a profound lack of energy, feelings of muscle weakness, and slowed movements or central nervous system reactions. Fatigue can also trigger serious mental exhaustion. Persistent fatigue can cause a lack of mental clarity (or feeling of mental "fuzziness"), difficulty concentrating, and in some cases, memory loss.

This is what we are managing. To be clear, to be fatigued is to be impaired. Do you want your flight crew to be impaired when something goes wrong, or when the weather is poor? This issue has been brought to this company's attention numerous times yet has been completely and utterly ignored.

I could go on but I would really like to see your responses to these 5 points. I won't even go into the fact that the company holds the passports of employees below a certain grade, in violation of UAE law. (Oh, I guess I just did).

The reason that the company is having a difficult time recruiting and retaining pilots is because of their actions. If you or I behaved in the ways described, we would be known as someone who does not keep their word and who is not to be trusted. That is the crux of Emirates problem and why you read the types of contributions that you have bemoaned.

IXNAT

10th Mar 2010, 17:31

Read Mana's last post very closely. He/she is either working daily in EGHQ, has worked there or dearly wants to be. His buzz words, his sentences are clearly those of a management prince.

Now he may be getting quite a chuckle out of all this, seeing how many are being wound up. His musings are definitely Management 101. He doesn't speak of the realities of flying the line at 95 hours and what it does to family life here. As I have said numerous times before, this is all from an airline that has not lost one red dirham in the course of operations.

Let's look at some realities.....if this airline is in such dire straights as Mana suggests. Perhaps some non cost items to blunt the pain. Jumpseat comes to mind. What's the cost to management other than control. Why originally were we told we could not have more than 4 days off in a row (now 7)? What does it matter if the hours and work is being flown? Why just one ALT a year for relatively new employees...cost to the company? Negligible.

Profit for shareholders? Well yes, but who are the shareholders. And Mana since you are so subscribed to being part of some management somewhere, take a look through the Jan-Feb Harvard Business review www.hbr.org (http://www.hbr.org) and look for an article on how companies have failed by adhereing to that strategy. Companies who look to treat customers and employees as there main thrust have faired way better than those that adhere to the shareholder (re. Jack Welch) is king theory.

Your youth and wannabe attitude shows through with your manifesto straight from the handbook. But we will forgive you when you have been hosed by management after management, saying the same things over and over again around the world. Difference here, ZERO RECOURSE.

Put things back as they were as short as two years ago with perhaps a few changes for the company and you will find a pilot group falling all over themselves to be proud and assist this company in any way they can. Who benefits? Customers, employees and guess what "shareholders". Leave things as they are, planes will be parked because crews run out of time and can't continue at a 90+ hour months, interview sessions will continue to lack participants, and families will continue to suffer as the bread winner of the household is absent either in body or mind for most of the month. It is not the fault of the pilots that the above is happening and it's not the fault of the postings here. So whose fault is it that these attitudes have evolved over a very short period of time. Is EK the worst of the lot, by no means. Doesn't make it right. Could it be the best.....IMHO it has been and could be again. But not on the course you prescribe.

FcU

10th Mar 2010, 17:52

Mana

Nobody that I have spoken to wants Emirates to do badly. All of our financial futures, while we remain in Dubai, are tied to the company's success so please quit looking for the easy excuse in the a few bad apples. I can also tell you that in the 25 years that I have worked in this industry I have never been treated with such disrespect. To say "if you don't like it, leave", is to close your eyes to the enormous professional commitment that every pilot in this company has made when they move to Dubai.

Quoting UAE Labour Law is a VERY slippery slope. There are many work conditions that are stipulated that Emirates does not comply with like to overtime pay and working at night to name a few. You cannot apply some of the rules and then expect to be exempt from others. You should be versed on all of it before you start quoting any of it. Air Arabia doesn't pay extra for night flying because they're nice guys but because they are following UAE Labour Law....!!

As far as what's being said on this forum being inaccurate and untrue, I think you are being selective yet again. Would the same be said of the continuous positive comments that were found on his very forum between 4-10 years ago. This site and the pilots who posted here have not vanished so something else must have certainly changed.

I would suggest that all the management who have an interest and an ablility to return Emirates to its former level of respect in the airline community take a long inward look at the scorched earth policies of the last number of years and address the real and present problems that exist within OUR company. Morale may not present a flight safety risk as stated by the HORSE but it does cause long term damage to the employer-employee relationship. Time to put away your egos and stop worrying about saving face. We are all waiting for some positive leadership instead of more threats and intimidation. I would also submit that your window of opportunity is closing very quickly and the time to act is before the world economy goes into full recovery because if these conditions remain wen it does there will be alot of unfilled airplanes baking on the ramp and you will only have yourselves to blame.

ManaDubai

10th Mar 2010, 18:29

donpizmeov

10th Mar 2010, 19:29

Good on you Mana,

EK is at the brink, I believe Uncle Maurice has said we will only make $1billion this year. How will we cope.:ugh:

I do hope all the pilots and other employees that have to dish out money to pay for their DEWA bill will be noted in the final financial report 2009/2010.

Our min block hour pay, our reserve pay, our AD pay, our SIM pay, our pay for leave days were all removed because the new big cheese thought we were having too many days off, and started rostering AD instead of days off. Funny thing was we had already flown max hours and could not be used, so these extra AD turned into 3.5hrs extra over time. Well who would have guessed after several months of this, the grand poobah would discover that his great idea was costing the company money!!!! Easily fixed by the 15% pay neutral pay cut. Pilots were the only group in the company to take a pay cut then, Dec 2003. Just we were the only group that took a pay cut in 2009. So feel proud to be part of that elite group.

Luckily the flight ops management stood up for the pilot group....oh wait there, no they didn't. Just as they have never stood up for the pilot group at any time in the past decade. When you listen to TCAS waste people's time at pilot wash up meetings declaring to one and all that all the bad decisions are made by someone far higher than himself, you wonder why he is still on the payroll, as he seems to do nothing. I have been to wash ups when ED talks, but have no clue what he was trying to say, but feel proud that EK was an equal opportunity employer (anyone remember the story about using NBO as the alternate for JNB? Once again ED proving what a well traveled and smart fella he is!!!).

You reap what you sow. Or so middle to upper middle managers (known fondly as muppets) are discovering at the moment. But its not of course their fault, but rather the fault of anyone who dares say what happens on PPRUNE. Just imagine what would happen if VOIP became legal!!!!

The Don

IXNAT

10th Mar 2010, 19:42

Mana, we really appreciate your posting here. Seriously, how else would we know what the talking points are for management? And son, you just don't get it. And that's the problem in a nut shell, nobody seems to get it.

Let's rehash a few incidents over the last year, and please explain to us not so fortunate to have your insight into the perspective of EGHQ. How did firing a TRI (that's a training pilot) and a pilot UNDER training for making an honest mistake, not causing ANY problems from their mistake, conducive to pilot trusting of management. Along those lines, the same goes for firing a pilot for taking a picture of his crew (PR pix done all the time) outside of the aircraft. Old news I know, but still sits there like a five day rotten egg. How about the decision to limit our days off, no matter how many hours we fly. What has that got to do with the company's ability to make profits? Please explain that to us novice managers.

Want to talk law? Any court of law (maybe not around here) deems past practices as contractual. As you so rightly state, relevant usage. Please, my friend, define relevant. What is relevant for one villa is not for another, given age, building quality etc. But remember, it was not to save the company money, it was to help the enviornment. What about those in flats? I guess their usage doesn't harm the enviornment.

Others have spoken about fatigue. As you may or may not know, we are supposed to NOT fly when fatigued. We are to say, I'm too tired/fatigued to operate this flight to my utmost ability. Want to guess how many flights would take off if we adhered to that verbatim? Want to guess how long that pilot will have a job if he did that down route and there was not alternatives for the passengers or no alternative to find another pilot?

Finally, it has all been said before and before. But you have not addressed ONE issue that has been brought to your attention other than your silly reference to "relevant" charges for utilities. And explain to me how this is not a breach of our contracts......opting out of accommodations to rent and getting paid an allowance. GONE. Sure it helps the company but it was contractual. No "relevant" clause in that one.

So instead of your Management 101 talking points, why not engage in a dialogue about the firings, the fatigue, the contractual breaches etc. We don't want you to disappear, but you seem to have a management mindset and I guess we just need to "get it". Certainly you don't.

Just rereading your post you say that the offerings at EK are "good enough" to attract new recruits. Any and every company can attract new recruits because new joiners come to any coorporation to improve their lot in life. But one key to a great company is how to retain the people that have built the company. So why, my friend, are we short staffed in many departments, especially pilots? Are those in charge so inept that they, one, don't know how to retain personnel, or two, they could not see the shortage coming? Or do they not care about retaining good personnel since most are not UAE nationals. EK does an unbelievable PR job to the general public (and to you obviously), but the pilot ranks are slowly thinning and "recruits" are not there as they once were. Ask yourself, my friend, why? Please, since you have a knack for managementspeak, address some of these and other postings from above so we mere minions can understand.:D

NEWYEAR

10th Mar 2010, 21:25

In my opinion threre are a lot of Companies in Arabia interested in creating this kind of bad atmosphere...

It´s a pity.

Good luck:)

gadgetman

10th Mar 2010, 21:36

I once again find it astonishing that when an individual speaks out opinions that aren’t shared by the majority on this forum the answer from most of you is angry and irrational responses.
Whilst you may see yourself as the lone voice speaking out against the howling mob, this really isn't the case. Just dismissing all other arguments as "angry and irrational" in fact merely shows how little attention you've actually paid to the thoughtful responses (well, some of them) posted.

As you put it yourself you are highly educated and intelligent people. Then you should also be able to discuss your disagreements in an educated and intelligent way.
Quit the patronizing tone. NOW. And pull you socks up and tuck your shirt in while you're at it.

I do understand that the utilities cap is inconvenient for those few of you who have a consumption that is above the new limit. This does however not mean that it is a breach of your contract. Your contract states that "The Company will pay rent, tax, all relevant cooking gas, electricity and water charges".
Congratulations, you've just highlighted the contradiction. Well done.

From a legal point of view relevant refers to normal consumption in the accommodation you are placed, and excessive luxury use is not covered by the contract. With the new cap EK has only formalized what was in the contract all the time, that only relevant consumption is covered. This view is shared by UAE lawyers and as a result not a contract breach.
And I can find 1000 lawyers willing to argue that facetious point with you. "Normal" is the word your point hinges on, which is sadly not in the contract signed. The word "ALL" is the word you need to focus on. "ALL" means everything, the lot, the whole shebang, the entirety AND the horse it rode in on. If this comple legalese is too difficult for you to comprehend, my 6 year old son can easily explain to you the difference between "normal" and "all".

Most of you were hired to EK when the world economy was booming, and Dubai was one of the hotspots on the globe. While Dubai's future still looks bright, there is no doubt in the fact that Dubai has severe challenges that needs to be overcome. It’s of course unfortunate that some employees feel that they haven't got everything they thought they would when signing up for the company.

IRRELEVANT. A contract in the civilized world is not up to negotiation just because the management screwed the pooch. Yup, the whole world, and DXB in particular got hit by the recession, but honestly, that aint our problem bud. If morale was higher, or employees were compelled to feel an ounce of compassion or loyalty for their company, you'd be amazed the sacrifices they'd have been willing to make. Sadly, EK management has literally NO understanding of the term loyalty do they.

EK try its best to live up to everyone’s high expectations,
cough, choke, hack.

but in the business climate that has existed the last years that has been and still is difficult at times. As you have stated yourself these complaints is not a breach of contract, and therefore not something that you can hold EK accountable.
umm, no. Ek directly breached the contract and is directly accountable.

As stated earlier EK understands that it needs to recruit more staff to create more flexibility and ensure further growth, and is as a result of this currently hiring new pilots, cabin crew and so on. EKs management is aware of that the current backup is thin and is taking measures to improve.
Good. Do something about it. You are failing in your job, and have been for some time. Improve your performance or resign. Now. for the good of the company you feel so strongly about.

It is every EK employee’s job and duty to do our best effort to ensure that the A/C is on route.
Good call. Why are you trying to run this company on a shoe string and use pilots to the point of illegality then? Such shoddy management will surely result in grounded planes as you have no room for any flexibility.

EK is in the business of moving people, and if we cannot do that in a good and flawless manner we will no longer have a business to work at,
so maybe you need to sort your ideas out.

much less talk negative about in internet forums. Your poor attitude and apparent unwillingness to help the company through a difficult time will not make things better.

Wake up. As said repeatedly, this negative talk on internet forums is a symptom, not a cause. Get that through your skull, and work out that you have much bigger problems than an anonymous internet forum to worry about. Guys bitching on here will get shouted down if they are full of crap or whining about nothing. When they are voicing the consensus of damn near everyone on the line and actually sitting in the sharp end of your moneymakers, you ought to realize that maybe you need to be looking at what has caused this. Stop being so nearsighted.

EK is in their recruitment work not trying to oversell what we can offer, and wants to create a realistic image of how life at EK will be.
Please review this statement with anyone who has joined in the last two years. Then review the deteriorating conditions and ask yourself if recruitment have been good enough to encapsulate this into their pitch.

Every day EK receives new highly qualified applications for different positions from all over the world which shows that what EK can offer is good enough and competitive enough to attract the new staff required to overcome current challenges and ensure further growth.
So what are you whining about then? You're getting enough suitable applicants or not?

EK is not heaven, but it’s certainly not hell either, and I think it’s sad that so many of you have such lack of respect for your own company and colleagues that you want to drag it into the mud through this forum.
Sigh. You don't get it do you. Ek isn't being dragged through the mud here, the levels of mud are merely being reported on.

Sort out the level of mud, and we'll get back to you.

atpcliff

10th Mar 2010, 22:19

Hi!

From what I can discern, EK is in a precarious pilot manning situation, due to the fact that:
1-New airplanes are coming
2-Pilots are leaving
3-EK is having difficulty hiring enough pilots to replace the leavers AND fill the new cockpits

EK has been lowing the minimum standards they put in place when hiring started in Fall, 2009.

To fix the pilot manning situation, I believe that EK will have to continually lower their minimum standards, AND they will have to IMPROVE the T&Cs of the existing pilot work force.

Conditions in the US, which is what of the main drivers of how successful EK wll be in fixing their pilot manning, due to the fact that the US has the most number of excess pilots that can fly as expats, are improving for pilots.

Increased Hiring Now:
In the US, many regionals will be hiring this year, as will many of the larger-aircraft operators. This trend will accelerate past 2012.

New Regulations Will Require More Hiring:
Additionally, the US Congress is forcing the FAA to improve Flight/Duty/Rest regulations, to make them similar to the British CAA system. This will require hiring of more pilots (or recalling of furloughees) to fill the current flight schedule, by virtually ALL US airlines. Congress is also looking at a bill, with a good chance of becoming law, that will force ALL Part 121 (normal commercial airlines, like Delta and UPS) airlines to hire pilots WITH A FULL ATP. That is correct. A brand new FO, if/when the law passes, will need a FULL ATP to even apply at ANY US airline.

New Pilot Candidate Declines:
Since about 2000, here in the US, EVERY year the number of new Student Pilots, Commercial Pilots, and ATPs has gone DOWN. EVERY YEAR, for the past 10 years, and the trend has been accelerating. When Dec, 2012 hits, when pilots in the US will once again have to retire because of their age (65), there will be a firestorm of hiring required to fill new seats, fill retired guy's slots, and a MASSIVE SHORTAGE of new-hire candidates.

If EK does not improve T&Cs as fast as they possibly can, they will be caught in a negative feedback cycle, and they will be in very big trouble.

I encourage EK management to improve the T&Cs as fast as practical.

Good luck and I hope it works out well for EK over the next 5 years!

cliff
NBO

Marooned

11th Mar 2010, 02:07

I think it’s sad that so many of you have such lack of respect for your own company and colleagues that you want to drag it into the mud through this forum

Mana: The lack of respect is mutual and not being enhance one iota by you.

It was the company that broke off any dialogue with the pilots many years ago shortly after the AAR 'review' debacle. Even the 'pilots conferences' (which turned out to be The TCAS & Ed Show) failed to address any issues and only served to reinforce the impression that we are to be controlled by those we hold in contempt and not supported by them. By this exclusion you have increased the distance between the pilots and management which will be much harder to bridge if not impossible. If Pprune is your only recourse to have any discussion with your own pilots then you should be ashamed.

Looking forward to your next set of posts when you get into the office which should be in half an hour or so. Don't forget your Costa's first of course... I'll be preparing to follow a magenta line for 8+ hours or so (not even half way through a 90+ month) and will be doing my best to stay awake.

DickieKnee

11th Mar 2010, 03:22

Management is made up of managing as well as leadership.::ok:
We have managers who may well be doing a good job of managing(saving the company money), however without any regard for leadership they will never be a good manager.:ugh:
We are in trouble as leadership also requires a backbone!!:eek:

DN

777boyindubai

11th Mar 2010, 03:56

Hi Mana,
Welcome to PPRUNE! I most say that I have reallly enjoyed reading your posts. They are colourful and informative of the "management" culture in EK.
I think that, single handedly, you have done more to discourage pilots coming than any pilot-written post here. Congratulations. :ugh:
You have confirmed that EK doesn't honour contracts, whether they are in relation to utilities, pay, hours etc. That FATIGUE is a massive problem. That things are not so good in Dubai. And, most importantly, that comments on PPRUNE are seriously hitting EK recruitment. EK have had 4000 staff LEAVE since Jan 2009.
But we are now recruiting. Get real ya Habibi! :D
For anyone thinking of EK, please read Mana's excellent posts. Working on the 80/20 Rule, assume 80% of what is written here about EK is true.
Finally, Mana, please don't forget to ask Uncle Maurice for your Nujoom (Star) award. You have done a great service for EK. :ok:

Fuzz Lightbeer

11th Mar 2010, 06:45

I once again find it astonishing that when an individual speaks out opinions that aren’t shared by the majority on this forum the answer from most of you is angry and irrational responses.

As you put it yourself you are highly educated and intelligent people. Then you should also be able to discuss your disagreements in an educated and intelligent way.

Irrational responses? On the contrary, I think that any open minded person reading this will see that the responses to your posts have been for the most part rational and substantive. I think that they will also see that when asked to respond to particular issues, you are selective and incomplete.
I do understand that the utilities cap is inconvenient for those few of you who have a consumption that is above the new limit. This does however not mean that it is a breach of your contract. Your contract states that "The Company will pay rent, tax, all relevant cooking gas, electricity and water charges". From a legal point of view relevant refers to normal consumption in the accommodation you are placed, and excessive luxury use is not covered by the contract. With the new cap EK has only formalized what was in the contract all the time, that only relevant consumption is covered. This view is shared by UAE lawyers and as a result not a contract breach.

If you check your dictionary, relevant does not equate to normal and for your information, the contract does not say either. It says that the company will meet the cost of utilities. I have no doubt that the company would prevail in a UAE court of law. One only has to look down the road to see a very well publicized example of how the law is not applied evenly here.
Most of you were hired to EK when the world economy was booming, and Dubai was one of the hotspots on the globe. While Dubai's future still looks bright, there is no doubt in the fact that Dubai has severe challenges that needs to be overcome. It’s of course unfortunate that some employees feel that they haven't got everything they thought they would when signing up for the company. EK try its best to live up to everyone’s high expectations, but in the business climate that has existed the last years that has been and still is difficult at times. As you have stated yourself these complaints is not a breach of contract, and therefore not something that you can hold EK accountable.

As I am expected to live up to my word and as my reputation relies on it, so does Emirates reputation lie on them living up to their word. I don't think that anyone here will deny that things have changed in the airline world but the way the company went about instituting their changes leaves a lot to be desired. We were not told that the changes were due to the need for everyone to pitch in and help out. That might have been mistaken for leadership. We were told that we were all flying long haul (not true) and that a 20% increase in the overtime threshold was "reasonable". What it was was a 15% paycut for most pilots, something that we were told the rest of the company did not have.
As stated earlier EK understands that it needs to recruit more staff to create more flexibility and ensure further growth, and is as a result of this currently hiring new pilots, cabin crew and so on. EKs management is aware of that the current backup is thin and is taking measures to improve. It is every EK employee’s job and duty to do our best effort to ensure that the A/C is on route. EK is in the business of moving people, and if we cannot do that in a good and flawless manner we will no longer have a business to work at, much less talk negative about in internet forums. Your poor attitude and apparent unwillingness to help the company through a difficult time will not make things better.

EK is only recruiting staff to maintain the current work levels and hence the fatigue levels for expansion. We have been told that average block hours per month and overtime thresholds will remain. I think that you would find that this is a very professional pilot group and that the failings of the operation are due to the failures of the management and their policies rather than of the pilots at the coal face. The upper management of EK flight ops have never flown here and in some cases have never flown in this type of operation. They have very little idea of what our operation and its inherent difficulties actually entail. You have admonished us for not taking our issues to management. That is exactly what this is all about. We have and they do not, nor do they care to listen.
EK is in their recruitment work not trying to oversell what we can offer, and wants to create a realistic image of how life at EK will be. Every day EK receives new highly qualified applications for different positions from all over the world which shows that what EK can offer is good enough and competitive enough to attract the new staff required to overcome current challenges and ensure further growth. EK is not heaven, but it’s certainly not hell either, and I think it’s sad that so many of you have such lack of respect for your own company and colleagues that you want to drag it into the mud through this forum.
I would much rather deal directly with a company that was interested in what I had to say but alas, that is not the case. You reap what you sow. Now I have responded to each and every one of your points. I would like you to address a few of the points made here that so far you have remained silent on:

1. How can the company justify the current levels of fatigue when there is so much evidence that the pilots themselves are finding them unworkable? What do you have to say to the families that are shouldering a lot of the burden of those fatigue levels?

2. What about the pilot who was fired while under training? An open and just safety culture?

3. What do you have to say to those pilots and their families who were stuffed into 2 bedroom apartments for over 2 years? What do you have to say to the pilots considering joining here who do not want to subject their families to the same?

Saltaire

11th Mar 2010, 07:09

The most interesting thread in years, and I hope Mana will continue his dialogue.

Mana,

EK is at the point that management feels compelled enough to damage control and post on an internet forum. Very telling situation isn't it? This fact alone should be extremely worrying and as mentioned before is an effect not a cause of the poor morale within EK.

If an individual has a 50-60k yearly drm DEWA bill, perhaps it would be best to isolate the issue not brushstroke the entire villa community and unilaterally alter a contract. When isolated incidences occur don't you think they should be treated as such? This applies to shoot from the hip FCIs, FCNs, SOP's and a plethora of other reactionary changes over the recent years. Take some time to digest the situation and why it happened and how it can be reasonably rectified for a win-win solution.

Cost cutting contract adjustments and productivity increases have been made to the complete disregard for the safety and health of the pilot group. Fatigue is a very serious issue and rosters are stretched to the absolute maximum. The time zone changes, day and night operations and challenges to some of our destinations are not fully appreciated or considered. Just keep your head down, you are lucky to have a job we are told. Good for morale??

The company is disjointed from many outside managers with the job of cost cutting and internal savings. There is very little cohesion or an open door policy of any kind. Come and talk to your manager? You must be joking. It is a very dragonian management style and here we are trying to vent our frustrations. Believe it Mana, this is a fact. It might not seem like it from your office, but look at these posts. It's not idle complaints and bored pilots with nothing better to do. There has been a paradigm shift in the last 5 years and EK is a money making machine, not so much a proud employer of highly motivated and happy employees. Can you imagine the profits if that were the case? One of the frustrating facts is that the foundations are there to make EK a great place to work. However, we are treated and FEEL like a neccessary evil. So just a few suggestions:

Respect our contract and conditions of service, more open and honest dialogue, read the last one again, honor internal transfers by seniority, hire more pilots for greater flexibility and lower the bid window, implement a true non-punitive safety culture, reward us when we sacrifice with pay increases, give us more positive feedback and search for ways of improving morale. It IS important.

Most pilots are willing to help and have done so in great numbers in the past but pay us over a reasonable threshold, not 92 hours. Most pilots have a very professional attitude, give EK their best and want this company to succeed, but you can't keep eroding our working conditions and take advantage of us without an eventual backlash. You have it before you.

But you say we must do this to protect the companies interests and profitability...yes, but to what end Mana? Where does the cost cutting and increase in productivity end? On the very backs of your hard working employees, EK will announce outstanding profits at year end in a couple months. I sincerely hope the pilot group will be compensated for our contributions.

This is not a pprune rogue group of negative pilots spouting off - this is honest feedback and the true realities from your hard working line pilots. EK is in the business of moving people, but it is also in the business of PEOPLE and PEOPLE, not airplanes , is it's most important commodity. I suggest EK start to remember this and quickly.

777boyindubai

11th Mar 2010, 08:31

Hi Mana,

Haven't seen a reply from you yet. Do make sure you get your draft reply approved quickly from upstairs. It just wouldn't do to be "off message"

Please answer a question for me? An Airbus Captain, in his uniform, going to work for a rostered flight, gets arrested for.....absconding :eek: Poor man spent the night in jail for NOTHING. :mad:

EK did nothing to help him or his family. Why?

I am sure that there are many people, both EK staff, and potential joiners who would like to know the truth.

Please enlighten us?

Mana, let me tell you something. The best thing about EK is the people. If the (mis) management of this potentially amazing company actually listened to and engaged with the staff positively, can you imagine the profits that could be made. :D

Look forward to your next post. :ok:

whossorrynow

11th Mar 2010, 09:03

Some quotes from another PPRuNe thread ... dated Feb/March 2004Only been here a short time, not enjoying it at all. EK is going to be in deep if it doesn't do something soon regarding recruitment, pay and upgrades soon.Well I'm sorry to say that EK generally (and I hate to generalise, but this is the case), don't give a Monkey's #oss about its employees;Emirates is not a good job anymore. Do not waste your time applying.Emirates' Flt Ops management is extremely disrespectful towards the pilots. BOTTOM LINE MANAGEMENT STRATEGY IS: IF YOU DO NOT LIKE IT YOU CAN LEAVE.And always remember the management will reap what they sow. If they make to much of a mess, not only the pilots will suffer but the whole airline.The contract your old man signed is not worth the paper it is written on, conditions change monthly for the worse. I am not being paid enough to put up with this crap!The SVPE&FO can see no reason at all why there is any bad feeling or why moral is not high.
I think the thing that is most upsetting to me is that in my mind Emirates was a First Class Airline all the way and we were really excited about being a part of it.Anybody looking at coming here should do so ONLY if the existing conditions at their present location are so bad that they MUST move on,However, with a family, we don't save a dime.Wake up Emirates! We will not survive long enough to reach the forcasted expansion targets if you continue to employ stupid, inexperienced, asskissing, brown-nosing, idiots for upper management positions.The upgrade was a huge factor. 4 months after I got here, they up and changed the rules.
He wisely decided not to come to EK and will keep on flying as a CPT with his present European A320 Charter company. He changed his mind due to the present very low crew-morale, the future upgrade prospects and last but not least the way EK managment is treating it's pilots... ...make any decision based on what conditions will become, not what they are now.

The whole thread is here:

http://www.pprune.org/middle-east/120828-emirates-pilot-meeting.html

As I recollect two of the 'voices' from the floor lost their '03/'04 profit share for speaking their minds at that 'lazy pilots' meeting.

freddi16

11th Mar 2010, 09:09

Guys can i ask you how many people got fired during the training,and why?

Schibulsky

11th Mar 2010, 09:16

Mana...your pathetic stubborn attitude and these :mad: repetitive talking points is exactely what made me leave this circus....keep up the good work!:ugh::ugh::ugh:

flaphandlemover

11th Mar 2010, 11:28

@Mana,

stop waisting your energy in doing ridiculous politics here on pprune...

Go back in your office and use your new won insider view (by reading pprune) to change this company in a better one again.

Soon you will find out, that these threat's against EK will turn into threats pro EK and all of a sudden (for you, i guess, a big surprise) people will love to work here again.....

Can i just ask you MANA, which fleet are you on?

Because as we all know, you are clearly a Management guy..... LOST THE CONNECTION to the base....

NOT KNOWING WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT :ugh::ugh:

woodja51

11th Mar 2010, 11:46

I dont have much to add but I particularly liked Saltaire's post.

Well reasoned tone and style. Pity he is not in management?

Is 'mana' short for mana gement? Or did I miss that earlier?

Once pilots work out that they get paid the same for zero hours as doing 92 the wheels will come off even more - AKA sick levels and stuff like that.

Just watched the ABC doco on DXB - pretty much reflects the place completely.

The good times are gone ... well unless you are a convicted felon who is designing clothes for the boss in Abu Dhabi ( Jamaican dude called Khan... but was that the emperor's new clothes I hear you ask!!!)

over and out!

lol

WJA

reebs.320

11th Mar 2010, 12:05

MANA

Your continued silence on this thread means you are either in a different hemisphere and a few time zones displaced :sad:and your layover hotel doesn't have free internet on the contract, or my misinformed friend you don't have the code for the cockpit door because you are not allowed in anyway:=.

All the best !

Reebs.320

Wizofoz

11th Mar 2010, 12:33

Everyone here knows I am not as negative as most to EK, to the point of raising some of the more vocal critics ire, and am always willing to point out when any of the negative stuff is simply crap or at least exageration.

It's from that stand-point that I feel justified in saying- Mana, shut the hell up.

Countering pure hysterical crap like sheikmyarse puts out is one thing. Putting up totaly blinkered, one sided propoganga is not only ridiculous, it achieves the opposite to what you are intending.

There have been serious changes to EK pilots pay and conditions, and they have been almost entirely negative. I understand that they have been in response to tough ecconomic times, but there has not been one iota of willingness shown to move things back in the right direction as things improve.

Fatigue and moral are MAJOR issues, and the current recruitment is far to late to avoid a dangerous period while eveyone flys hard with lots of newbees around.

What has been most distressing to me has been the fact that, coupled with a reduction in renumeration,there has been a totally counter-productive attitude of fire first and ask questions later.

The treatment of the Manchester crew was down-right immoral. Even in the case Accra crew, the company tried to spout some form of victroy for justice when the guys were fired, but managed to get there jobs back when it came to be recognised they'd done nothing wrong!!

Really, an attitude of "Help us through difficult times, we'll appreciate it, help where we can, and reward you when things pick up" would have gone a LONG way to stopping people WANTING to post negative stuff on PPRUNE. "Like it or leave" doesn't.

I want EK to succeed and prosper, yes for my own selfish reasons but also for the good of everyone else who works here.

Head-in-sand about the problems the company is making for itself does not achieve this.

sexdriven

11th Mar 2010, 13:04

MANA

I have to agree with Wizofoz.

We all knew that the recession was going to impact EK. We are not naive. The company should have approached the pilots and asked them to make some sacrifices for a year with a review every six months thereafter. Most guys would have willingly obliged and also would have probably gone out of their way to help. However, the company used the recession as an excuse to adjust all t&c's in their favor and also to treat the pilots with utter disdain and disrespect. This is the reason why guys are upset.

kiwi

11th Mar 2010, 13:27

This thread makes me chuckle.
Firstly, because it truely shows how desperatley the EK pilot group desires to communicate with it's management, that they are willing to try to communicate with someone who gives the impression that they could be in the management camp!
Secondly, that there is a belief by some that this would help in fixing any of the problems confronting the pilot group!

It's simply not the way things are dealt with here. EK management is a multi-level dictatorship, with each level of management dictating to those below them, while refusing to listen to anything that doesn't fit their view of the world from those below them.

I said it makes me chuckle but in hind sight it's actually very sad!!!:(

Mr Angry from Purley

11th Mar 2010, 13:27

Mana
You have to understand that once Pilot morale is down it stays down. In the big scheme of things if all other subjects were fine then the average pilot discontented or otherwise wouldn't give a monkeys nuts about the odd problem or two be it the utilities cap at one end of the scale to fatigue at the other end (within reasonable bounds given that flying is fatigueing wherever you are)

If they feel safe and wanted then your half way there. The fact is given the current economical climate Pilots shouldn't be leaving Emirates, yes they are a bunch of mercenaries but if they are happy mercenaries they don't normally leave. I say that with 30 years of experience dealing with them!
:\

ManaDubai

11th Mar 2010, 13:59

As "whossyorrynow"s post sadly shows, this forums negative attitude towards EK has been a fact for at least 6 years, in contrast to some of your earlier response that you were perfectly happy 2-3 years ago. It is sad that you let yourself be seduced by the negative image created here, and that you obviously try to persuade more EK staff into this incorrect view of the company.

During those 6 years EK has had fantastic growth, and very little turnover of its staff. If this forums description of reality was correct we would be out of business years ago. As I have stated earlier the turnover has recently increased some from its earlier record low numbers, and this is perfectly normal when the world economy recovers. Dubai, despite all its pleasures and joys are not for everyone and EK totally understands that some want to move back to their native countries if they get a competitive offer.

The higher turnover combined with new aircraft and a situation where EK has to compete with European and American carriers (after their long absence from the jobmarket) to hire new staff has created the current situation where some of EKs pilots have to take on a higher workload. This is not a situation that can be blamed on EKs management as EK don't control the factors that create the current situation. EK will always have a hard time competing against US and Western European carriers when it comes to staff as people always have a higher wish to work in their native country. EK try to compensate this by giving employees compensation packages that is highly competitive, and is very successful in doing so.

According to earlier posts airline personnel (ore anyone else for that matter) won’t do their best unless they are happy and like their job. I think that is totally true. With that in mind it is very pleasing to see that EK has customer satisfaction among the best in the airline world, and that passengers is very loyal to EK as they like the product we can offer.

On this background I strongly disagree with the notion that most EK personnel are not satisfied with their job or work conditions at EK. Your incorrect and inaccurate postings at PPRuNe does not affect EK recruitment severly, but the faulty image created here does make readers of this forum less likely to apply for a position at EK, and that is unfortunate as it is not based on facts.

I am not going to discuss company policy regarding people who is let go because of mishandling on their part. As such cases are strictly personal I think its unprofessional to speculate about what the individual has or has not done. No one is let go at EK unless they have performed actions that is in severe breach with regulations.

Regarding the utilities cap neither your or I am lawyers, and I based my posts on the legal view expressed by UAE lawyers on this matter. I think you should do the same as it is not our personal opinion that is relevant for how the contract is to be interpreted. The cap had to be introduced to stop a situation where all of us had to pay for a few employees shedding and excessive usage. This was a problem concerned to villas only, and it would not have been right to introduce a cap for employees not living in accommodation that was the subject of such luxury consumption. EK try to deal with challenges in a just manner, and I think the utilities cap is a perfect example of this.

EK does not, have not, and will not breach any employee contracts. If you don’t agree that this is the case you should take your complaints to the legal system. A change in compensation, rosters and so on does not happen unless it is extraordinarily necessary to ensure your job security and long term sustainability of the company. Emirates have a very strict safety policy that ensures the highest standards, and as a result EK has not had one fatal accident since its startup 25 years ago. It is the flight crew’s job to ensure the safety of each individual flight, and if the flight crew is not able to perform their job at the highest standards they should not be in the air. Any flight crew who does not act in accordance with this directly breaches international and company regulations. However EK cannot accept that flight crew won't abide their scheduled rosters if this is caused by unwillingness to perform your job because of negative attitude.

You argue that problems can't be taken up with the appropriate managers as you don't get the response you want. Of course management can’t do something about all minor complaints, but if you express them in a decent and professional manner and your complaint is shared by a large proportion of the staff it will be taken into consideration. Management staff can of course not comply with all wishes you might have, but try to do their best to ensure a good work environment for all EK employees.

"Kiwi" states a good point in his post. Thinking that you can change anything at EK through a internet forum is naive. Regardless of what position I might ore might not have, a forum like this is not the right place to take your complaints.

6000PIC

11th Mar 2010, 14:45

As it is the flight crew`s responsibility to ensure the safety of each individual flight , what may I ask is management`s responsibility ? You seem so adept at attributing blame to everyone and everything but yourselves. Seems to me like you management types think you can hide behind long-winded statements that actually say nothing but imply everything. We can read between the lines of everything you say. I think you totally underestimate the intelligence of the pilot workforce. If you were held to the same standards of responsibility as pilots are , you would have your license revoked.
I`m a highly experienced wide body Captain that will not be submitting my CV to such a poorly run and managed airline. Good luck EK pilots , you`ll need it.

Neptunus Rex

11th Mar 2010, 14:59

Mana,

Oh dear, what a diatribe. From all the mistake of spelling and syntax, are you really qualified to communicate from your ivory tower?
Do tell what sports you played at school. I would be most surprised if the list included rugby, because that would require team spirit, co-ordination and commitments to training.
"The Battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton." Capeesh? I thought not.

http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/littleangel.gif

Mister Warning

11th Mar 2010, 15:15

Mana,
I don't often post here although I am a very regular reader.
You are absolutely full of ****.
I have been here 11 years. My contract states clearly that utilities will be paid for - it is not referenced to the employee handbook which is EK's normal method of reducing my terms and conditions.
If you think morale is not at an all time low, may I suggest a line flight. Never know, it may also be a nice change for you.
I am looking at leaving asap - something I would have thought impossible 4 or 5 years ago.

M-rat

11th Mar 2010, 15:22

Mana:

Your pilot workforce is western. Flying was invented in the west. So was The Queen's English. So is most of current global contract law. In order to obtain legitimate entry in to the world of finance, even the DIFC operates under the British Legal System. This is noteworthy and important, as it shows the high regard placed on such a system. Sadly, our contracts do not fall under this jurisdiction. This is however advantageous for EK.

You may parse that contract changes don't qualify as illegal changes here under UAE Law. You are naive in the extreme to expect a professional workforce of pilots to be happy with forced reversions in terms and conditions at the whim of company management. No one likes to go backwards. Legal or not.

You are posting to attempt to correct some perception that you have that the posts on this forum are innaccurate. Again, you are mistaken. Emirates Airlines pilots are attempting to correct certain misperceptions in the market about this carrier and its treatment of its employees so that prosepctive employees will either be giving consideration, or perhaps even come to EK, armed with facts and truths that these individuals wish they were armed with upon thier entering in to the employ of this company. There is certainly more than a little frustration with the sleight of hand management style. We like to be honest and we expect the same in kind.

A fair day's wage for a fair day's work. That, by tradition has been around 65-80 hours per month, varying a bit depending on the type of operation. When a carrier posts a 406 million USD profit (2008 fiscal year, not the 268 million someone mistakenly quoted earlier), and doesn't give anything back to the employees, instead altering the 'de-facto' conditions of service without consultation then the company is going to face some public outcry.

The internet is a powerful tool. It has suplanted cordial relations between the pilot workforce and management and that genie isn't going back in the bottle. You have pushed us beyond our reasonable limits and a reasonable man is going to fight back with the tools - the only tool he has. That is this forum and I endorse it wholeheartedly as the last stand for pilots at this company.

Your even tempered tone belies the futility of your endeavor.

My loyalty to this company is only as valid as the paper it was written on - and that has been demonstrated to be as whimsical, manipulative, coy and disengenuous as you are.

Don't grow a wish-bone where you should have a backbone.

Profit Shear

11th Mar 2010, 15:54

I, like "Mister Warning", am also not a frequent poster. I am however quite a frequent reader. I too have been here longer than is required for full provident fund redemption on resignation. I too am looking at getting out of here just as soon as I can. I used to love it here. But the present management and it's attitude leaves me stone cold - for every reason afore-stated. "Mana" epitomises the ignorance and arrogance inherent in management today. Respect is earned - not commanded. Sadly, today's manangement doesn't know what that means.

White Sausage

11th Mar 2010, 15:56

Unbelievable! This is my only answer to Mana´s attitude. In stead of trying to listen and understand we only get manage-speak and head burying. Not ONE question answered by this guy! Only propaganda and BS.
This is a timewasting exercise, same as the pilots meetings. Guys, as sad as it is, this guy shows you exactly the "I don´t care about your complaints" attitude of our management. How very, very sad!
Don´t waste your time here anymore, nothing will change because they don´t want to change anything! :ugh:

Instant Hooligan

11th Mar 2010, 16:01

Mana is here to refute our claims because it's making a difference. We know the truth here, please ignore his management drivel and spare others from enduring the disgraceful management treatment of ALL the employee groups within EK.

Saltaire

11th Mar 2010, 16:03

A double post but Mana needs to hear the truth,

Mana,

EK is at the point that management feels compelled enough to damage control and post on an internet forum. Very telling situation isn't it? This fact alone should be extremely worrying and as mentioned before is an effect not a cause of the poor morale within EK.

If an individual has a 50-60k yearly drm DEWA bill, perhaps it would be best to isolate the issue not brushstroke the entire villa community and unilaterally alter a contract. When isolated incidences occur don't you think they should be treated as such? This applies to shoot from the hip FCIs, FCNs, SOP's and a plethora of other reactionary changes over the recent years. Take some time to digest the situation and why it happened and how it can be reasonably rectified for a win-win solution.

Cost cutting contract adjustments and productivity increases have been made to the complete disregard for the safety and health of the pilot group. Fatigue is a very serious issue and rosters are stretched to the absolute maximum. The time zone changes, day and night operations and challenges to some of our destinations are not fully appreciated or considered. Just keep your head down, you are lucky to have a job we are told. Good for morale??

The company is disjointed from many outside managers with the job of cost cutting and internal savings. There is very little cohesion or an open door policy of any kind. Come and talk to your manager? You must be joking. It is a very dragonian management style and here we are trying to vent our frustrations. Believe it Mana, this is a fact. It might not seem like it from your office, but look at these posts. It's not idle complaints and bored pilots with nothing better to do. There has been a paradigm shift in the last 5 years and EK is a money making machine, not so much a proud employer of highly motivated and happy employees. Can you imagine the profits if that were the case? One of the frustrating facts is that the foundations are there to make EK a great place to work. However, we are treated and FEEL like a neccessary evil. So just a few suggestions:

Respect our contract and conditions of service, more open and honest dialogue, read the last one again, honor internal transfers by seniority, hire more pilots for greater flexibility and lower the bid window, implement a true non-punitive safety culture, reward us when we sacrifice with pay increases, give us more positive feedback and search for ways of improving morale. It IS important.

Most pilots are willing to help and have done so in great numbers in the past but pay us over a reasonable threshold, not 92 hours. Most pilots have a very professional attitude, give EK their best and want this company to succeed, but you can't keep eroding our working conditions and take advantage of us without an eventual backlash. You have it before you.

But you say we must do this to protect the companies interests and profitability...yes, but to what end Mana? Where does the cost cutting and increase in productivity end? On the very backs of your hard working employees, EK will announce outstanding profits at year end in a couple months. I sincerely hope the pilot group will be compensated for our contributions.

This is not a PPRuNe rogue group of negative pilots spouting off - this is honest feedback and the true realities from your hard working line pilots. EK is in the business of moving people, but it is also in the business of PEOPLE and PEOPLE, not airplanes , is it's most important commodity. I suggest EK start to remember this and quickly.

The honesty above are the facts of this airline, and you sir are naive to think this forum is not a ligitimate outlet to voice our concerns because without a governing body or a real support group for us at EK ,this is ALL we have. With your strong language of professionalism and compliance, I suggest you also abide to the highest standards and fix what is obviously broken. I'd say you have some work to do...

kiwi

11th Mar 2010, 16:16

I respectfully suggest everybody step down from warning prospective new hires about the dangers of coming to EK.
It is now totally unnecessary as Mana has taken the job upon him/herself

Regards to all:)

tatin

11th Mar 2010, 16:19

The dogmatism of the EK management as depicted here by mana(gement) is typical for an uneducated ex-army (navy-whatever) mediocre little man from the midlands. And his team.

Funny that the little man talks about UAE law, a mix of sharia and western law and takes that as a basis for the contract the pilots have signed. Law of the contract is were you signed it, in your country.

Funny that he talks about a totally failed manpower planning, something the little man can not do anything about.

The little, insignificant man has not done anything for the fleet, pilots, employees for the past seven years.

Keep on going with your `pre war Yorkshire hospital` management style.

eventually your time will be up.

Wizofoz

11th Mar 2010, 16:47

The higher turnover combined with new aircraft and a situation where EK has to compete with European and American carriers (after their long absence from the jobmarket) to hire new staff has created the current situation where some of EKs pilots have to take on a higher workload. This is not a situation that can be blamed on EKs management as EK don't control the factors that create the current situation. EK will always have a hard time competing against US and Western European carriers when it comes to staff as people always have a higher wish to work in their native country. EK try to compensate this by giving employees compensation packages that is highly competitive, and is very successful in doing so.

Utter, Utter, Utter CRAP!!!

EK did not do any recruiting during a period when aircraft were rolling in and people were leaving. Why? Because they had changed the productivity threshold and thus thought they could man the new aircraft with the same number of crew working 90+ hrs/mth indefinatley.

Not their fault that this simply didn't work? I can tell you first hand that senior members of flight ops told the VPs it couldn't be sustained and were ignored.

As to a competative package, yes, it's still not bad. But how do you explain a situation where the demand for pilots is increasing, yet our package is significantly less than it was previously?

I am not going to discuss company policy regarding people who is let go because of mishandling on their part. As such cases are strictly personal I think its unprofessional to speculate about what the individual has ore has not done. No one is let go at EK unless they have performed actions that is in severe breach with regulations.

So, you don't think company policy (or, more accuratley, the comopanies propensity to IGNORE it's non-punative policy!!) is of interest to existing pilots or prospective joiners?

Regarding the utilities cap neither your ore I am lawyers, and I based my posts on the legal view expressed by UAE lawyers on this matter. I think you should do the same as it is not our personal opinion that is relevant for how the contract is to be interpreted.

But why was the interpretation changed? The COMPANY interpreted the contract to mean that all utilities were paid, then changed its mind. This would be a breach of coman law under any decent legal system. If it is fair and reasnoble to have a cap on utilities, why was that cap not specified in the contract?

As I said, Mana, if you've pissed ME off to the point of having to point out the flaws in your pro-company ramblings, you've done your case no good at all!

Neptunus Rex

11th Mar 2010, 16:49

I don't believe it! Mana a Pom?
Yer 'avin' a laugh!

http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/laughinatu.gif

dontevenjoke

11th Mar 2010, 17:20

I, like many of you, am an avid reader but rarely post. However after seeing the posts from our friend "mana" I would like to share my views.

"Leadership" - definition
"The ART of influencing human behaviour in order to accomplish a mission towards a common goal." In my opinion severely lacking in EK.

The current practices of rostering crews for 92 hrs a month remind me of some of the 'safaris' driving down SZR. The red line is NOT a goal! It's a limitation! Sooner or later your going to need some serious work done, or have to change the system.

As far as I'm concerned (with all respect) most pilots have degrees in something from uni or college besides being pilots, most being in business. I don't know about you, but I could sit at a desk and make descisions just like you do, however do you know how to perform a single engine go-around mana? Bottom line is guys we are PROFESSIONALS, and we can't let anyone forget that.

As far as the choice of being here or home, of course we'd all like to be at home. However, we all chose to come here because the "package" was good. Mana, my friend, the package is all relative. If anyone of us could make the same at home we'd be there. Period. And unfortunately the package is sliding very quickly! TC's, hours, fatigue, blah blah, the list go's on! I think EK better wake up before they have a bunch of shiny AC sitting on the ramp with no one to fly them.

Someone else made a good point earlier. They talk about making employees happy. Hmm. Someone threatens to leave, pay them more. Hmm. Roadshow says life in Dubai will be rosy and fun. Hmm. How about retention of the 2200 or so guys and gals filling seats right now here in DXB for you!!!! How about trying to keep the skilled, professional, and talented people you have to keep the airline profitable and more importantly safe!

When I think back to 5 or 6 years ago, if you knew someone who worked at EK, they had made it! You strived to get there, and be a part of something special. Now, I am here, and wish it was as I heard it once was.

Guys and gals, I am proud to fly with each and every one of you. Keep it safe and hopefully one day our friend mana will wake up, talk to his superiors and make this place what it has the potential to be.

Joke.

ManaDubai

11th Mar 2010, 17:45

trimotor: Corrected, I depend to heavily on spell check, so when it’s not there for me things start to go wrong :).

I have no more to add in relation to other discussion points raised. I have expressed my view, you have expressed yours. I think it’s extremely unfortunate that you see people who view EK in a more positive light than yourself as company ramblers.

We have all acknowledged that EK has several challenges that need to be addressed and that everything is not perfect. I have tried to voice in a polite manner that internet forums is not the right place to take up these issues, and they will not get solved through discussing them here.

EK is one company with employees working together towards one goal. To be the best possible airline. I think it’s discouraging you don't see we are all in this together, and the only way to solve our problems is through cooperation and teamwork. Your view that everyone involved in management are either deaf ore dumb is both counterproductive and totally wrong.

I am happy that the views reflected by the majority of you are not representational for EKs staff, and that the reality experienced luckily differs allot from the one portrayed here. I think EK needs to take measures to ensure that negative views not in accordance with reality is not tolerated, and that such views cannot be allowed to destroy the good working climate at EK. If we could operate in a professional manner and have faith in our co-workers we would all be much better off.

flaphandlemover

11th Mar 2010, 18:05

@ MANA
quote:
"EK does not, have not, and will not breach any employee contracts."

You gave it away Mana... YOU ARE MANAGMENT.....

YOU ARE LYING LIKE THEY DO....:D:D:D:D

Yossarian

11th Mar 2010, 18:21

Loyalty is a two way street Mana. And if any understanding or progress is going to be made, you should stop concentrating so much on management's point of view and at least accept that there could be another. I accept that times are tough right now, but please explain why conditions have steadily eroded over the last 6 years. You want to double your number of pilots, but are battling to cover attrition, hence this desperate post on here. While I appreciate the opportunity for dialogue (finally), it does smack of desperation.

Your lack of understanding of current concerns is all I feared it may be. You ask why we air our negativity here; well where else? Communication on any matter regarding our deteriorating conditions is met with a brush off. What do we have left, apart from moving on?

This was once, over a decade ago, when I came here for an interview, a good job. You have made it an industry joke. All I can say is that it is a big wheel, and it turns real slow, but one day we will be back on top. Hope you can still look at yourself in the mirror.

IXNAT

11th Mar 2010, 18:22

I am happy that the views reflected by the majority of you are not representational for EKs staff, and that the reality experienced luckily differs allot from the one portrayed here. I think EK needs to take measures to ensure that negative views not in accordance with reality is not tolerated, and that such views cannot be allowed to destroy the good working climate at EK. If we could operate in a professional manner and have faith in our co-workers we would all be much better off.

So EK needs to take measures........sounds like a threat to me. misMana(agment), please enlighten us where the pilot group is NOT operating in a professional manner. Any potential recruit only has to read the above. You sir in the last two days have done more to damage the reputation of EK than all the posts over the past year. Many recruits could look at our postings and say we are a bunch of whingers and they themselves could gut it out. But you, with what you have written proves without a doubt what all have been saying. We will be looking in Safa for a link to your gold star.

Pitch Up Authority

11th Mar 2010, 18:30

Business is business you hear from time to time. Today these words seem to have the connotation that everything is permitted.

EK will use everything in its power to get the job done, and that is why they are facing more and more rebellion, inside the company as well as fierce resistance from airlines that have to compete with EK on the basis of safety, efficiency and quality only.

EK however, being owned by the government, that is a single family that owns the whole country, has a significant advantage over its competitors, who more and more do no longer accept the EK tactics.

When the financial crisis broke out, Dubai cried out that they were treated unfair by the international media but internally they will even attack those that are loyal to them.

Intimidation, harassment, torture, blackmail, bribe, psychological rape etc .... Everything money can buy is on the menu. Do not be mistaken, EK has to do this. Dubai as a country is not yet big enough to be self sustaining, they have to grow, whatever the human (it's only expats anyway) cost in order to survive.

Any criticism, even when uttered with positive intention will be driven into the ground, EK is their national pride.

One may think what kind of drivel is all of this but every single bit of is has been proved to be true. If they have any pride they should face this evidence head on.

I am not saying that the owners are all that bad, but if they are being told what the possibilities are and what the risks, they will cover part of the risk if things go wrong in order to avoid any international exposure. They are the law and soon enough they will tell other authorities how things are done.

They already have the vice president seat at ICAO, if they are not careful in that capacity, they might expose their true nature more than they intend to.

This is a political reality they will have to accept. Air Canada supported by their government, knows all about it. Enough is enough.

And news in this industry spreads very fast.

Mana: PPRuNe is the only way to get this exposed, to do so internally if far too dangerous, a reality only a fool would ignore. This argument and this argument only is the reason why this forum is so active. You do not see these kind of arguments coming out of any airline outside he Middle East.

EKBemused

11th Mar 2010, 18:50

So Mana,
Have you made a list of the people appropriate measures need to be taken against.
You talk about UAE law, that pardond a guy for shoving sand up a persons mouth and planting nails in his butt and rubbing salt on it, because the poor guy did not know what he was doing. The SUV just went over him a few times becase he had diminished responsability. What do you guys smoke here.
Would you like to see the video, probably not :)

Yossarian

11th Mar 2010, 18:53

I also hope that Mana is a fellow pilot, using his posts to illuminate the situation here. I want to believe that management is not so desperate or stupid as to resort to such imbecilic responses. I want to believe it......but...

EKBemused

11th Mar 2010, 18:58

If he is a pilot, he has to be a local kid, so full of the brainwashing they get.
Like they have a culture :)
The only Arabs that had one were north of the PERSIAN GULF.
If the Persians knew there would be a thing like black gold, they would have taken this Arabian outback over 2000 years ago.

TangoUniform

11th Mar 2010, 19:03

Got it, Mana is one of ours. You know who we haven't seen post on here? Ole Mensaboy. Has to be him. He couldn't let this juicey bit of nonsense go uncommented on.:ok:
TU

EKBemused

11th Mar 2010, 19:13

May be he is dead, like in our darkest hour.

EGGW

11th Mar 2010, 20:34

For those newbies that are trying to post, your posts may need a moderator approval. Its a software thing. Bear with me

Also be aware that you maybe being wound up..... Just a thought.

Carry on.

EGGW

Flying Spaniard

11th Mar 2010, 21:01

Very interesting developments here.
I can just imagine the fallout in the media over this thread if god forbid a fatigue related mishap was to eventuate.
The warning signs were there and if mana is actually a bona fide EK management hack they were warned appropiately through conventional and not so conventual (public) ways, hopefully the courts willl hang the ones responsible for the mess from the tallest crane in the UAE however thats probably wishfull thinking.

It seems to be that the grievances posted here are not just a select few but a large proportion of the EK flt crews.
Feel sorry for you guys that have to deal with this, all i can say is hang in there, things will get better one way or another even if it means leaving.

Swear_in_GIN

11th Mar 2010, 21:57

Sorry to rain on your parade buddy, but EK is way, way short of being a World Class Airline.

Do take a look at Skytrax, and see just how many complaints are posted there by disgruntled passengers.

My family and I have have flown EK a couple of times, and have vowed never to do it again.

You aircraft are FILTHY inside.
The toilets are FILTHY.
Your staff on the ground are LAZY and RUDE.
Your staff in the air are LAZY and RUDE.
Your seats are UNCOMFORTABLE.
Your cabin service is POOR.

I had a Flightcrew application in with EK a few years ago - I am more than qualified to work for you - but I have since withdrawn that application.

I DON'T WANT TO WORK FOR EK ANYMORE.

Just take a guess why, Mana...

faheel

11th Mar 2010, 23:21

Well,having followed various threads on pprune over the past 10 years or so there are really only a couple of major airlines I would not put my family on.
One is Korean the other is Emirates.

I fly longhaul for a major far east airline, I know all about fatigue believe me and the way you guys at Emirates are rostered to fly does not instill much confidence in the safety of your operation.

Emirates policy with regard to rostering and in particular fatigue management will eventualy bite them in the arse,it nearly did in Melbourne and sadly I think another Melbourne is just around the corner.

So until rostering practices change,I will not recommend to anyone who asks me Emirates as a SAFE airline to fly on.
my 2 cents worth.
good luck to you all, I hope common sense will prevail.

mensaboy

12th Mar 2010, 03:21

Mana is certainly not a pilot. I have never run across a colleague who spoke the management 'double-speak' as well as him.

The Utilities issue is ''incovenient''? Sorry, it's much more than ''inconvenient'', you ass.

"Dubai's future looks bright''? Wow, that statement actually made me laugh out loud!

''SOME pilots have to take on a higher workload''. Nope, all pilots must take on a higher workload but more importantly, it is unsustainable. This fact, which includes fatigue, health and family issues, is obviously readily apparent to most prospective new-joiners.

''No employee is let go at EK unless they have performed actions that is not a severe breach of regulations''. That is a complete falsehood, which every single pilot at EK has come to understand.

''EK has not, have not and will not breach employee contracts''. That is another complete falsehood that every employee, not just pilots, realizes about Emirates Airline.

Then Mana goes on to state that UAE lawyers have been consulted, obviously prior to the myriad of changes to our T&C's, and no doubt they weighed the likelihood of legal action before giving their advice. Clearly, even our pathetic management knew what they were doing, and they started taking risks and have yet been held to account.

Personally, I think we should encourage Mana to continue posting... he has quickly become the best ''anti-advertisement'' for prospective recruits to this shameless cesspool.

NOTHING will change for the better, until aircraft are parked! Even then, I doubt things will return to a sane level. The 'tipping' point has been surpassed and Emirates Airline is obviously attempting to mitigate the damage by employing certain immoral individuals to counter the truthful statements made on Pprune. It is comedic, except for the fact that the issues are so serious.

I have believed, up until reading Mana's dictated posts, that individuals who are UNEMPLOYED might want to consider EK as a short-term 'stop-gap' in their career, but NOW, I don't think this job is suitable even for those pilots. Short of living in a place where you stand a high risk of being killed (crime, traffic, etc) AND you are out of work....... forget about this job.

Mana has wonderfully demonstrated the attitude of our management and the futility of our struggle for important issues like Fatigue, Health, Lifestyle or even a tiny amount of respect for our professionalism and abilities.

This company has lost the plot!

Mister Warning

12th Mar 2010, 04:22

Mana,
Don't want to attack you personally so this is just an effort on my behalf so that you may appear a little more intelligent in your future posts.
Spellcheck will not help with your incorrect use of the words "to" (too) and "ore" (or) in your last post about yor uuce ov spelllchek.
Idiot. :ugh:

Ahad Adump

12th Mar 2010, 04:49

Aaaaaaaahh.

The penny has dropped. Look at mana's use of big English words surrounded by basic grammatical errors.
Compare this to some FCI's.

I think it is EGT.

pool

12th Mar 2010, 06:32

you mean Herrmann, the univited at the barbie?

Kamelchaser

12th Mar 2010, 08:23

The law in the UAE is very much set up to protect local companies. Large companies like Ek can choose to ignore employees rights (as they have done with the utilities allowances), knowing;

a. there is no such thing as "class action" in UAE law, and
b. there is no such thing as legal precedence, therefore the case your mate just won means nothing when you go to court to argue the exact same situation.

Therefore, all UAE companies know it is difficult and expensive for individuals to go to court, especially against a large entity, and win. That's why they take risks like this, and are happy to break the law with very little chance of it coming back to bite them.

The courts in DXB are also notoriously slow, and lawyers are hesitant to take on a government entity.

So Mana, your argument about EK following the law does not sit well with me (and no doubt the majority of readers/contributors to this forum). It continues to make your arguments seem astonishingly naive.

Taylor01

12th Mar 2010, 13:32

I believe Mana has left the building. I don't think he ever expected such a response. I bet his boss/master told him to come on here and tell us how things are, but we showed him. The truth is very hard to take and I wish it could get to the top. This really could be a great place to work. Oh well the resumes are out and I'm just waiting to hear. Stay safe guys!.:ok:

IXNAT

12th Mar 2010, 15:01

Of course he's left the building....it's the weekend at EGHK. EGT has used up all of his mismanagement talking points, so we will hear from him probably Monday with some more threats as in his last post.:eek: Plus he will have to discuss what should be said in response. Let's face it, no question he is part of the EGHQ. How else would he know and make the slip that "lawyers were consulted". I don't know for sure; do you?

forum newbie

12th Mar 2010, 15:30

Hey guys and gals,

Its been awhile (5 months) since i have been to these forums. I was in the pool last year and took my name out of the hat after realizing how bad things were at EK after reading these forums. I know couple of the guys that got hired from the pool and they are trying to leave at first opportunity. I guess they did not head the warnings or they considered pprune as usual banter.

But i want to thank everyone (too many to name) that were honest and kept me away from the dune. My wife and I both appreciate it.

Best regards,

fb

etc...i still get emails from ek telling me to update my file even though i asked to remove my name from the pile. Will not fly ek and will tell my friends not to fly it either for safety related issues.

Taylor01

12th Mar 2010, 15:56

Ixnat,
Me either, but as you said it sounds pretty good. I believe this is a great place to let them know what we think, but if they don't change anything my fingers could get tired. Have a good weekend and we will be ready for Sunday...:ok:

Gutsful

12th Mar 2010, 18:49

This is a brand new handle. I have another which I’m not using for this. VPN is a wonderful thing.

I have no idea whether Mana is a management stoogie, one of us or an outsider just stirring the pot, but it doesn't matter. Whether he intended to elicit the responses he has or not also doesn't matter. What does matter is that he has. For the first time there is post after post of reasonably argued points, no crap or fanciful add on's, people putting their honest points of view forward, and in a (for PPRuNe) coherent manner.

I am an EK pilot, on the B777. Everything negative that has been posted on this particular thread is true; at the very least, factually true with some individual slants attached.

We are entering, in fact have been for some three or four years, a period of Emirates history that has and will see the greatest erosion of our working conditions. There will be plenty more to come I'm sure.

I've just read EK Management's post. Could be a tosser, but the unfortunate thing is that if you ignore all the fancy (?) writing everything he says is correct. If you read his previous posts from a year or so ago, the worrying thing is that pretty well everything he wrote then was and/or has become fact.

The realities are we are working in the Middle East. That means that we are working for cheats, liars, deceitful and dishonest people. (Term used loosely). Due to the leader’s incompetence and ego, they have driven Dubai into the ground. (Like I could care). The same people who will lock you up for a 100DHS bounced cheque refuse to pay back monies borrowed, workers salaries, contractors agreed upon fees. I believe there was probably always an intention, financial storm or not, to never pay back the full amount of monies borrowed. In effect, they have built Dubai for free or half cost. And that is just what they are doing to us; lying, cheating, deceiving, stealing. We are on track to become the cheapest labour units in the airline industry. Just as EK manag. says.

This is much more than Talking Horse, TCAS, AAR, TCTC or Flaganon. It stems from the very top, this is their way of doing business.

I think now is probably the only chance there is of stopping the slide, perhaps even regaining some lost ground. There is no doubt that they've been a bit too clever, and have dug themselves a hole. Let's use that. I've seen it before elsewhere. Only problem is here there is no venue for dissension, discussion, complaints or negotiation.

Their behaviour the last few years has been and is appalling. Absolutely atrocious. And I believe, set to get worse given the mess that has been created Emirate wide.

This thread has obviously gone way off topic from what it started from; I think a new thread should be started and kept alive with the same manner of posts that have appeared since Mana. In their hundreds would be perfect. This is the ONLY forum that exists for us to express our displeasure in this backward society. I also believe that as much dirty washing as possible should be hung out for all to see. I’m not interested in cries of ‘professionalism’ or whatever. Fu** ‘em. It’s what they play on and use in any event. I think the thread should hammer home over and over again just how this company behaves. Any post that is bleeding heart or Mana like can of course remain, but I think should not be answered. This will be OUR thread, the multitude of disaffected Emirates Pilots thread, and all others, particularly the company, can get stuffed. It’s time to get the word out, and properly.

Cheers, I’ve had a GUTSFUL.

SkyDive6

12th Mar 2010, 19:20

amen brother

7x7

13th Mar 2010, 01:01

Someone's already mentioned the absence of posts critical to EK here on Pprune a few short years ago.

Then, there was one man, [an ex-EK pilot who'd been terminated under what then (pre Sept 11th 2001) seemed extraordinary circumstances], critical of all things EK, and virtually every person replying to his posts (me included) defended EK.

Something's changed in the meantime, and it has changed radically. Anyone looking in from afar would have to ask himself: is it likely that 2500+ pilots within EK could have damn near ALL changed their atitudes to the company in that time simply because they ALL had a radical change of heart with no good reason?

Or, following the tenets of Occam's Razor, is there a more simple explanation? Has something changed - and changed radically - within the company to make virtually all those pilots who defended the company almost to a man back in 2003 now fill these pages with almost universally negative comments about the people who are at the helm?

I leave it to the reader to decide.

Karl, I still think you were wrong in much of what you said about EK management back then, but I have to admit that I think you'd have to wait a long time now to find someone who'd disagree with anything you said along the same lines you posted here back then.

ernestkgann

13th Mar 2010, 01:36

http://www.pprune.org/middle-east/120828-emirates-pilot-meeting.html

ManagementMotion

13th Mar 2010, 02:16

ManaDubai makes valid points regarding the success of Emirates.

The airline has shown the greatest sustained growth in the industry.
The product is of a high quality. A fact testified by many customer and independent surveys.
It has been profitable throughout.
Its training and crew standards are of a high quality as shown by independent audit.
It is a highly sought after employer as applications in the thousands will prove.
It has a strong social consciousness and support several major charities.
The package for flight deck crew remains one of the best in the industry.
It has high safety standards that are monitored continually and compared with other leaders in the industry.
In regard to fatigue a team of qualified medical professionals monitor this with the assistance of a expert software package. Interviews are also conducted to ensure any external factors are accounted for.

None of this would be possible without a professional, dedicated, competent and fiscally aware management. This is particularly true over the past two years.

It will continue to grow and deliver a high quality product despite the few voices that attempt to disuade others from finding employment. These voices measure as a fraction of 1 percent of their employees and have little effect.

Schibulsky

13th Mar 2010, 02:27

ManaDubai makes valid points regarding the success of Emirates
oh really? :eek: so you found the raisin in the huge pile of cow manure :D
btw...the average cotton farmer in North America before the civil war also had a lot of success :ugh::ugh::ugh:

7x7

13th Mar 2010, 02:35

A question worth repeating on the new page:

Has something changed - and changed radically - within the company to make virtually all those pilots who defended the company almost to a man back in 2003 now fill these pages with almost universally negative comments about the people who are at the helm?

Mister Warning

13th Mar 2010, 02:45

You loser Mana.
Changing user name from ManaDubai to ManagementMotion.
What an awesome tactic which hardly anyone will realise is just to give the image of someone else being as deluded as you.
Different handle - same ****.
Bit like our current change of management. Rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. :yuk:

Wizofoz

13th Mar 2010, 03:19

It will continue to grow and deliver a high quality product despite the few voices that attempt to disuade others from finding employment. These voices measure as a fraction of 1 percent of their employees and have little effect.

Whilst the voices coming on here and elsewhere and saying all is fine and dandy measure what percentage?????

Mister Warning

13th Mar 2010, 04:21

ManagementMotion - check the definition of "motion" and you will find "gastrointestinal motility". That is - "****".
Looking forward to your next well thought out user name!

Mr Good Cat

13th Mar 2010, 05:17

Guys, guys, guys...

You don't really, seriously believe that any of these Mana guys are genuine posters do you?

No wonder the pilot group is having it's intelligence questioned.

This is just one of 'our' guys having a little fun provoking some vitriol. He's probably just having a bit of fun to cheer himself up during dark times, therefore I won't be unfair and label him as a 'troll'.

In fact if there was a way to check the IP addresses of a ll the 'mana' type posts you would probably find they are the same.

If it's really frustrating you that much, just put these guys on the ignore list and concentrate on fighting the real issues instead of biting the bait from a practical joker.

It's a bit cringeworthy when you see our group responding to these guys like we really believe they are EK managament. Sheeesh... :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

PorkKnuckle

13th Mar 2010, 06:12

Agreed Good Cat. It's almost funny how these fellas are all putting so much heart and soul into this phony baloney dialogue. Mana must be laughing his pants wet at all you chaps.

Can you really see anyone from management posting on pprune to straighten the pilots out?

It's actually quite a boring thread; the same old points have been raised again in the hopes of "management" seeing things our way and making changes, Tragically naive and sad, really.

Still, it does serve to continue to highlight to prospective joiners a few facts of life about the way things are here.

PorkKnuckle

13th Mar 2010, 06:16

ernestkgann

EK circa 2004

http://www.pprune.org/middle-east/12...t-meeting.html (http://www.pprune.org/middle-east/120828-emirates-pilot-meeting.html)

Hey Ernest, it's interesting how many of the names in that thread are no longer active here.

Resignees? Worked to death? Beaten into submission? Their absence paints an interesting sideline picture...

ernestkgann

13th Mar 2010, 06:23

Like me, they're probably gone and are now just interested observers from the sideline.

Oblaaspop

13th Mar 2010, 07:45

I hate to say it chaps, but I think Good Cat is correct! There is no way any 'relevant' management would actually be so stupid as to post the nonsense that Mana has been spouting here.

I do believe that TCAS/TCED et al read Pprune, but they would never condone the direct engagement of the pilots through fear of what has just happened on the last 6 pages!

At best I reckon Mana is a completely insignificant management type (VP Paperclips or similar), or more likely a moustached office junior with a curiously wobbly head deluding him/herself that he/she is more important than they actually are.......... The place is full of them!

However my money is on the possibility that it is one of our own on a wind up! At which point I would like to congratulate him on his sheer brilliance at managing to convince 'most' of us that he is actually 'management'..... Well done sir!:ok:

EGGW

13th Mar 2010, 09:34

Well someone has worked it out at last...

All the "Mana"'s posted from outside the UAE. Thats all I will say. Fun reading all the same :ugh:

EGGW

dundem

13th Mar 2010, 14:44

Best wind up ever? Could be. Hard to tell given closeness of the 'mana's to actual management attitudes.

Also, with technology as it is, posters can appear to be somewhere else.:ok:

Devils Advocate

13th Mar 2010, 14:47

EGGW - you've probably looked-up the IP address that the PPRuNe server captured when Mana made his / her posts.... but can you confirm that Mana is not utilizing a Virtual Private Network (VPN) connection to disguise their true location?

E.g. If you look-up the IP address of this specific reply, it will probably suggest that I'm in the environs of Los Angles (as that's where I've pointed my VPN client, prior to submitting this reply).... though you shouldn't be too surprised to learn that that's not where I really am! ;)

Aside, Mana could well indeed be posting from within an EK office overseas, and / or connected to that office via an EK VPN... unless you know differently? :E

EGGW

13th Mar 2010, 15:14

No I can't guarantee that no VPN was used.

MANAx2 do use EK management speak, but that is not hard to replicate is it. They must be desperate, if they come one Pprune wouldn't you say :ok:

Carry on.

EGGW

Fart Master

13th Mar 2010, 16:23

Bloody right they are desparate... for example, rejecting candidates and then 2 months later calling them back...."We've reconsidered...." etcetc and offering them a job; I have names:mad:

PorkKnuckle

13th Mar 2010, 19:41

This thread's gone pretty quiet. Lots of sheepish ppruners out there?

I stopped reading Mana's crap hafway through his second post and gave up on the thread in general a page later. Mana's posts aren't even funny in a wind-up way. Just pointless.

I can't believe so many otherwise intelligent posters went in for his gag of pretending to be management "engaging" the pilots on pprune. And Lancer is STILL buying what Mana's selling!

Even 411A stayed away..... :rolleyes: Maybe he forgot to take his pills?

McGreaser

16th Mar 2010, 17:15

So in essence, no AOG and the 100 pilots being sick was just a shame ?:confused::confused:

Or is it another thread that has gone belly up as usual and left us clutching at who Mana is .........or the definition of fatigue..........EK management...blah blah blah.........:zzz::confused::zzz::confused: I think we have beat that dead dog.....dead:ugh::ugh::ugh:

With 100% certainity can tell how any topic involving EK will end........even if it's not related to fatigue, management, thread creep it will quickly roll towards these issues........come on guys "land your planes......":rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I think we are more mentally capable than that lads.....hit us with something fresh ..........:E:E

LarryW727

16th Mar 2010, 20:27

I understand that things are not as they once were at Emirates, but if you are an American, there are NO JOBS here. My app is "under review" and while I am sure things are tough, it is to the point of desperation in the US.
I contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle. -- Winston Churchill We don't get it yet in this country.

chuckunu

16th Mar 2010, 21:59

try Kallita, Southern Air, Evergreen, Atlas, Vision. and I believe there are some more right now in the US.

fluffy5

17th Mar 2010, 01:40

Just to get back to the thread 100 pilots sick, I believe there must be some truth in it, as my semi military contracting firm has now decided to email all pilots that if we go sick even for one day that we must go to our original aeromedical doctor to sign us off. Even to a normal doctor for a cold for one day this is not acceptable, it now is with the companys AME in dubai and as all the pilots and myself live in Al ain it can be slightly difficult.
fluffy

ekwhistleblower

17th Mar 2010, 02:01

What's 100 pilots about 4%, I would have thought reserves would cover that. Seasonally in Europe sickness rates exceed that.

halas

17th Mar 2010, 03:10

Productivity pay (overtime) used to kick in around 78 hours depending on the amount of days in that month.

That has been arbitrarily moved to around 92 hours for the month with no increase in base pay and no increase in credits for leave, sim etc.

This move in achievable productivity pay threshold does several things.

Firstly it makes the pilot group p!ssed off toward the managers who sent out the embossed letter advising of the change.

Secondly the company gets potentially around 15% more work out of the pilots for free.

Thirdly the whole idea of productivity pay is to entice productivity. But since the higher target makes you tired, pissed off and still no better off financially, regardless of the fatigue issue, you may as well call in sick.

That, l think, is the essence of the thread. There are more people calling sick now than before the change in hours of potential productivity.

The management may argue that the introduction of hourly flight pay covers for this. Well it doesn't even come close. And flight pay was introduced so that it would not be included in the CONTRACTED 3% annual pay rise and any annual bonus.

Could go on outlining all the dastardly schemes that they think up but have to jump on the hamster wheel to feed the family.

halas

FUSE PLUG

17th Mar 2010, 07:07

Larry,

I'll keep my first post on PPrune very simple.

As a guy from the States in your shoes two years ago, listen carefuly to my advise.

Do not make the jump over here.

Period

Flamebait or not, re read the previous posts to get an idea of life over here.

You will have a better QOL at a Regional.

FP

Wizofoz

17th Mar 2010, 09:02

The management may argue that the introduction of hourly flight pay covers for this. Well it doesn't even come close. And flight pay was introduced so that it would not be included in the CONTRACTED 3% annual pay rise

Halas,

All you say is true, except for the above. The 3% is not in our contract.

mensaboy

17th Mar 2010, 10:57

Agreeably, the 3% annual increment may not be in our contracts (don't know for sure since all contracts mysteriously evaporate a few years after they are issued.... some form of self-destroying paper I suspect) BUT every single year (except last year), pilots received the annual increment. Anyhow, there is a word for what I am trying to explain, which alludes me now, but in essence something is Contractual if it is written in such a manner that it should reasonably be expected AND historically it has occured. Then again, this is Dubai where acceptable norms are NOT ACCEPTABLE laws.

Larry, I feel for your lot in life, but I guarantee you will regret the decision to come to Emirates Airline because you are under pressure and stress at the moment. The last 3 F/O's I flew with were the nicest guys you could ever hope to fly with (2 Americans and one European), yet they were so twisted about what has gone on in their 1.5 to 3 year careers at EK. Each of them expressed that they wished they never came here and more importantly, they felt trapped now that they were here.

It's only going to get worse here mate! As recent as a few months ago we had pilots on Un-paid Leave yet this company, which made a BILLION $ profit last year, continues to slash and burn our T&C's and operate well below the manpower levels required to maintain this airline.

Currently Emirates is 20kts below alpha max! We are so far behind the power curve and in addition, very few suitable pilots from ANYWHERE on this planet are even considering EK as an option, so things will only get worse over the next few years. There comes a point when such mis-management becomes unrecoverable.

It would take a huge amount of insight, introprespective thinking on the part of our managers and team effort just to get back to a level which is barely sustainable for pilots at EK. It will not happen with our Management team. (re-read that last sentence because there is not one sane person working at EK, who would disagree with that point)

Since we are so overworked, are treated pretty much like the average slave worker in Dubai and the rate of pilots leaving this place is accelerating; these facts preclude any possibility that this job will return to its glory days. I doubt this job will even attain a level that is considered tolerable by most pilots.

You might be thinking to yourself........ ''well big growth projections, pilots leaving; hmmm, maybe I can upgrade in less than 7 years'' Not going to happen!

It is easier and apparently cheaper for this company to hire DEC's, primarily because no one in their right mind should want to come here as an F/O nowadays. Once a pilot comes to EK, he is trapped! That was not my sentiment when I came here, but I hear that sentiment on almost every flight now with my colleagues.

Being unemployed or fearing redundancy is a major stress for a pilot, especially in todays environment. But you MUST heed the warnings about Dubai and EK. There are no ulterior motives of negative posters on this forum, which might not have been the case in the past. What I'm trying to say is this, even if we get a 50% payrise, our present level of work and our treatment by management means that this job is no longer tolerable. It's not a matter of money, it boils down to flight-safety,YOUR health and lifestyle.

Emirates is ONE accident away from crumbling and that is not even taking into account that Dubai itself is on an unavoidable downward spiral.

If you believe that what is going on in the USA is a result of overtaxation and not the fact that the country has lived beyond its means for a generation, then you are in for a rude awakening in Dubai. You are probably a very nice person, as are most Yanks, but it seems you have no clue of what you will have to tolerate if you come to THIS cesspool.

In spite of how much I think you might be about to make a terrible decision, I completely understand why you hold such a POV and I wish you the best of luck!