Final flight of VH-NGA

[VH-ABC]

Just saw an ad on TV for 60 Minutes this Sunday night... should be worth a look.

[Peter Fanelli]

should be worth a look.


I doubt it.

[Falling Leaf]

Standby for the usual infotainment; 2 minutes of 'facts', probably read from the ATSB initial report and a few old media releases, with the usual 10 minutes of sensationalist padding, a few teary-eyed relatives of those involved and another 10 minutes of adds stuffed in-between.:ok:

[Stationair8]

Sixty Minutes, 48 minutes of waffle interuppted by commercials and self promotion of the network which will include Underbelly, Topgear and anything else we can promote.

Thought who took the naked picture of Laura would have been higher up the list than NGA?

[Jabawocky]

The most informative bits are the Top Gear ads....:rolleyes:

I'll buy a beer to the first ppruner who's quote from this site is used by them! :}

[training wheels]

Took a while for me to realise that this is to do with the Norfolk Island incident last year. :hmm:

[Frank Arouet]

Pelair- Westwind- YSNF.

Do I get a beer?

[Jabawocky]

Good one Frank....maybe just one for being a clever bugger!:ok:

I meant a quote from one of the earlier threads :ok:

[Howard Hughes]

I meant a quote from one of the earlier threads
Of course this pruner will be referred to as 'an industry insider'...:E

[GADRIVR]

Will be absolute rubbish.... with about as much attention to details, facts and logic as the original Norfolk ditching thread!
Yawn!!!!!

[Atlas Shrugged]

What is 60 minutes?? Is that the show with that Grimshaw idiot on it or is it the one with Eddy McGuire.

[Frank Arouet]

It's pretty in depth. It took me one and a half hours to watch the last one.:)

[PA39]

:hmm:More like 60 seconds !!

[MyNameIsIs]

What is 60 minutes??


It's 1 hour. :}

[gkja]

In our house it's known as 60 Idiots.

[manymak]

The ad shows radio conversation between controllers and the pilots of NGA. Does anyone know if there is a transcript or something similar floating around the net? I can't seem to find one

[PyroTek]

The ad shows radio conversation between controllers and the pilots of NGA. Does anyone know if there is a transcript or something similar floating around the net? I can't seem to find one

Anything about being "at bang"?:}

[mustangranch]

on the ad there is underwater film of a what looks like a westwind? Have they been down to film it?

It will be a MASSIVE media beat up, however; the point still needs to be made WHY didn't they plan to Noumea? Do the French even let them in there?

[Jabawocky]

ATSB have released a video of the Westwind. Fish seem to be happy with it!

[Desert Flower]

In our house it's known as 60 Idiots.

In ours it's known as 45 minutes, because there's about 45 minutes' worth of actual reporting (if you're lucky) & the other 15 is taken up with ads! :ugh:

DF.

[FOCX]

If you go back 25 yrs the joke then was "60 minutes, 48 minutes of bull****, 12 minutes of commercials!"

[Dances With Dingoes]

The same media that hailed this crew as Hero's when it happened??? Jesus...

BINGO, and if memory serves, the same media group that put him up for Batchelor Of The Year.

I believe the Magazine was owned by the same media company.

[PLovett]

Well apart from one tiny snippet of information what a waste of resources and time. :ugh:

The so called journalist should give back the oxygen he used during the making of the program. :yuk:

However, it did confirm something I thought highly possible when reading the earlier threads on this crash, that is Pel-Air had a CASA exemption from the alternate fuel requirements. :suspect:

[Wally Mk2]

Whilst I agree with some of what's being said here re Journo's reporting or lack thereof we pilots amongst us must bear in mind that the 'general' public have little idea about flying other than boarding a large airliner & being 'bussed' to somewhere else. What we have here to Mr & Mrs Joe Average is a story that to them is frightening & so it should be. Very few flights ever reach this outcome thank God but when they do they get full exposure right or wrong. The real story behind this is not why they run out of gas that's getting fairly obvious to those with some knowledge of OS Med Ops etc but what led this experienced (said loosely) pilot to get himself & his crew in this one way potential suicide mission? That's the question/answer I'd like to hear but will probably never know the real truth due ass covering, a typical human trait, we are all guilty of it some time in our lives big or small!
So we also seem to have a hero at the start of a story like this then a villain at the end? That's from a pilots perspective but from the gen public's angle is it safe to do such flights in a small jet? Very good question of which 2 answers could be applied.Yes given thorough pre flight planning WITH options & no as most small jets lack the range/endurance but are cost effective & at the end of the day this was most likely an insurance job & we all know that insurance Co's just love to pay for Gold class service right?.......NOT!!!

Anyway scape goats, there's always a scape goat! Forget the Capt he's made probably his last major decision on those type of Ops ( I hope) it's more now what are the regulators going to do about it (regarding education) other than run & hide after they now realize that they (CASA) are now also under the spotlight!

PelAir/Rex could do well to start owning up to some of this mess I do feel for the victims the innocent ones that relied upon a CASA sanctioned professional organization to get them safely to their intended destination. Their story tonight on TV would have a LOT of the general public jumping up & down that the tasked Co hasn't even sought their well being after what just have been a terrifying time in their lives.

Again as has been said many times to date their all safe that's a great outcome now we can only pray that we don't see this type of incident again.
A pilots license is just a piece of paper to go out & really learn but sometimes we stuff it up!

Wmk2

[UnderneathTheRadar]

You gotta laugh...........

"Norfolk Air Traffic Control"

And, for the kiwis, the plane was "November Gulf Alpha"

Whilst PLovetts supposition that maybe they did have exemption wasn't directly confirmed, the former CASA dude obviously felt that was irrelevant and belived Wally's concept that PelAIR should have ignored any such waiver.

UTR

[PLovett]

Wal, I would agree with you if they hadn't spent the better part of the story dealing with dramatic imagery, emotional interviews and long shots of the heroic journalist.

There is a story in this but did we hear a CASA spokesperson as to why the exemption was granted? No. Did the refueller at Samoa get interviewed? The pilot may have said something as to why he didn't order full tanks.

The previous threads on this subject castigated the pilot, however, there is a strong chance he was acting within the company AOC. There is a huge argument that he should have gone beyond them in these circumstances. I am certain an old South Pacific hand would have tanked the thing to the brim but somehow I doubt the pilot fitted that description.

I would also be interested to know what the company reaction would have been had he tanked it to the brim and been able to land at Norfolk Island. Would he have been criticised by the company for operating the aircraft at heavier weights than it needed to be thereby increasing the costs of the flight?

I don't know the answers to these questions but I am not going to Monday morning quarter-back the pilot at this point. My suspicion is that no-one associated with this flight from CASA to the pilot is going to come out clean.

Underneaththeradar,

Whilst I might be wrong on the point I thought the program said that Pel-Air did have an exemption in their AOC. Yes, the former CASA fellow said it should have been ignored but he was an old SP hand.

[truth boy]

What this highlighted was a big hole in the fuel procedures that CASA approved.A hole that is very likely in many other medivac operators procedures. I know one for a fact that is quickly changing them as we speak. You cant hang the pilot or pelair for that.You can cast opinions all day. But fact is they were operating within the rules.The pilot did fall short in many areas but.

[goin'flyin]

Another question is, "Was the footage of the wreckage shown NGA?"

If so, is it procedure in a westwind to ditch with the gear down?

No wonder the thing stopped so suddenly once it touched the water with the gear down.

[Howard Hughes]

What CASA need to clean up is the delineation between 'airwork' and 'charter'. If the line was not so blurry, then I expect this aircraft would have had fuel for an alternate.

[PLovett]

goin'flyin,

There is some supposition that when the fuselage broke the hydraulic lines were severed allowing the gear to free fall as the wreckage went to the bottom. Perhaps, perhaps not. May come out in the inquiry? :8

[Wally Mk2]

Yr right Plovett some old Sth Pacific hand/s would have filled the bird to the brim & some!:) I know I would have & have done so EVERY-TIME!
Still as I have said in the past commercial pressure is always ever present in the back of EVERY professional pilots mind. It's a balance, good commercial practices & the safest option, often the two get a little mixed up!
"GF" it is NGA for sure the gear down would have been due possible hydraulic failure upon impact as has been discussed in other related threads recently elsewhere within these pages.


Wmk2

[truth boy]

It is nga. Video is on Atsb web site. Gear is down due to hydraulic lines being cut. It's a normal accurance

[rodrigues]

By far the best aspect of that 'report' was the re-union between the patient, her husband and the Medivac nurse...amazing footage :hmm:

Sure, he might of :mad: up, but you can't hold it against him, he's so just so god damn good looking!

[puff]

I think the comment from the Norfolk Island Unicom operator when they advised that they were going to ditch basically says it all about the whole incident ' Are you serious ?'

[Tibbsy]

I was chatting to my wife about the incident, after we'd both watched this story.

For her part, she was furious at the level of spin and froth about the skill of the pilot that was published in the days after the ditching. In her words, they built him up to be a hero! I'd just finished saying that he must've had reasonable hands and feet to pull off a night ditching in a 2m swell and she said "well, if he's such a good pilot, how did he end up having to ditch then?'.

Fair question I suppose.

What would be the airspeed/fuel flow penalty be for fuelling to full tanks on a 6 hr leg in a Westwind?

[Jabawocky]

If he had declared a fuel related emergency much much earlier, maybe some lateral thinking by the guy on the ground, and those in the air may have come up with some better ideas a lot earlier.

Instead he hoped he could get it on the ground and say nothing, all covered up by a large fuel uplift......which may have just been buried in paperwork.

It was clearly not a well briefed ditching and I still believe there is a good chance the gear was down, he seems to have been a bit resistent to telling the truth about things from before the flames went out, so why stop there.

CVR and FDR's will be very interesting indeed.

[UnderneathTheRadar]

CVR and FDR's will be very interesting indeed

Aren't they at the bottom of the ocean?

[NOSIGN]

I agree with Wally's posts.

Airmanship must preside, but it is a huge let down that if the flight was conducted within the law, i.e. SOP,CAO, CAAP etc, the law comprimised the safety of the flight.

I have mostly flown charters with the min required flight fuel - I have had held faith in the book, pressumably much like Dominik. (I will however add that rightly or wrongly I have had the tanks full to the gool on flights through LHI, NF, etc, i.e. left myselft an option).

I have long suspected that little or inadequate consideration is given by both company managers and the regulator to CASA exemptions and company SOPs. These two definitions of the law must provide, to the highest probability, for a safe flight by the lowest common denominator in the company operating the flight.

The PIC may apply Airmanship to fill the percieved holes of the SOPs/ Orders, regs, etc but there shouldn't be any holes in the first place. Is fuel load monitored and reviewed by anyperson other than the company accountant, i.e company operations or the regulator? If 9/10 Pilots depart the island with max fuel, more than what is rq by the rules, I would expect that someone would be in charge to monitor the trend and find out why this is so and reveiw the SOPs/ Rules.

as an aside: I have flown with company's where neither the CP, OPS manager or staff know anything about the company SOP. Most company's that I have flown for have disregard for the SOP. I have also flown with companies where much of the SOPs are irrelevant to the operation. How many SOPs that you know off have been cut and pasted from another company without thorough thought, or developed generally by a third party?

I found the 60-minutes program entertaining. The bit of info I took from the show was that PELAIR had reportedly not offered an apology, best wishes or gifts to the PAX involved. This fact is devestating to the service of Aviation. Perhaps herein lies a role for yet another :mad: middle manager - title: Head of Operations - Public Apologies... no wait that title doesn't have 100 letters in it.

PELAIR if you're listening... your fault or not, send a :mad: box of roses chocolates to the poor pax of your flight :ugh::mad: please!

[Jabawocky]

Probably some :mad: :mad: of a lawyer said 'say and do nothing!

It has been proven in the USA in the medical/hospital industry that this kind of approach ends up costing more! Why, the pi$$ed off punter feels so rudely treated they actually take the lawyers in all guns blazing, rather than a more civilised diplomatic approach which makes everyone feel better, better off and cost everyone less.

So to all you Air Ambo chasers......Take Note from the country that invented your industry! :=

[Tee Emm]

the former CASA dude

The former CASA "dude" as you describe him, was in fact, one of the most knowledgeable and highly experienced airmen you will ever have the privilege to meet.

The fact he was given less than 30 seconds on screen after having been interviewed by the 60 minutes crew for several hours some weeks before the program went to air, in my view exposed the show as a sham. Believe me, this former Examiner of Airman had a lot more to say during the pre-show interview process which would have exposed serious shortcomings both in the CASA oversight of Pelair and the operation itself.

OK, we are all aware that 60 minutes is just another docu-drama with accent on the human side (tear shedding, reunions of passengers and others involved and shots of beautiful scenery) but so much more in terms of the behind the scenes administration and planning of these air ambulance (insurance) flights was consigned to the bin by 60 minutes in favour of cinematic drama for the masses gazing at their plasma TV's.

[Whiskey Oscar Golf]

Truth Boy where in any report does it say the gear was down due to a hydraulic failure on impact, regardless of it being a common Occurrence in the plethora of westwind water ditchings. No need to speculate with unsubstantiated information. Best left to the final report.

Regards

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Hey Mr 'Under the Radar'.......

Did you see this or were U just 'guessin'...??

From the 60 mins promo site...copied direct to these forums for experts to ponder over...we bring you the troo and dramatic story of......


"DoomedFriday, March 5, 2010
Reporter: Michael Usher
Producer: Phil Goyen

Imagine what it would be like in those last awful seconds before a plane crash.

Well strap yourself in, you're about to take that white-knuckle ride, sharing the final, terrifying moments of Pel-Air jet November Gulf Alpha.

Late last year, the jet plunged into the Pacific in ..."


Thats right!! November GULF Alpha......so much for the veracity of 60mins...or seconds....or wotever.....:}:}:eek:

[bushy]

Can a Westwind carry more fuel than NGA had on this flight as well as six POB plus equipment without exceeding weight limits? Was the Westwind carrying a maximum load?
Also, I believe the "island reserve" is mandatory for charter flights, but not for "Aerial Work" flights which medivacs usually are. (within Australia)
Maybe this is a case of stretching the equipment to it's limits and having minimum margins.
Maybe another case of having "financial speculators" (managers who have no technical knowledge) who have too much influence on operational matters. The Chief pilot is supposed to sort this out, but he is usually the meat in the sandwich, and has to deal with forces that are much more powerful than he is.
Saving money can destroy aviation companies.

[ninjaduck]

"island reserve" is mandatory for charter flights, but not for "Aerial Work" flights which medivacs usually are. (within Australia)

Can a Westwind carry more fuel than NGA had on this flight as well as six POB plus equipment without exceeding weight limits? Was the Westwind carrying a maximum load?

Correct Bushy! your eluding path is not wrong.

[Howard Hughes]

The Chief pilot is supposed to sort this out, but he is usually the meat in the sandwich, and has to deal with forces that are much more powerful than he is.
A wise chief pilot I worked with once said "the chief pilot's only job is to defend the AOC"!:ok:

[mustangranch]

the main point is why they didn't plan to Noumea in the first place. This is something the media totally missed the point on. Just maybe the strict laws the French apply there did not allow NGA to even plan it in the first place?

[truth boy]

To whiskey Oscar golf.

The fusulage snapped at the rear bulk head taking many hydraulic lines with it.If that isn't a hydraulic failure I don't know what is. In a previose life I worked on westwinds for over 10 years. In a situation like this it is not at all suprising that the gear free fell down after impact. So please don't talk crap

[mates rates]

I think CASA will have a lot to answer for when the report is finally published on this one.As there will be when some accident of the future is put down to pilot fatigue.Approving all this fatigue management bulls#$t instead of applying the laws of the land as they exist in the form of CAO 48.
The only saving grace for them would be a political cover up of the ATSB report by the government.

[NOSIGN]

Spot on Mates Rates.

[GADRIVR]

I'm wondering if all of the kerfuffle about young James would have occured if he hadn't been a bit of a poster boy.
One thing is for sure. CASA are the one s who granted the AOC.
CASA have regulatory oversight over the AOC holder.
I'd be wondering what Pelairs check and training system is like.
I'd be posing questions to the Ops side of things and in particular why don't Pelair go to Noumea any more? Maybe something to do with landing costs etc.
The PIC is being hung out to dry with very little support.
For the record.... he was following SOPs that are applicable to that particular operator QED.
Swiss cheese my friends, you won't find a better example.

[Dizzy Llama]

Swiss cheese my friends, you won't find a better example.

I've always thought of the Swiss Cheese as lots of little things (often unrelated) coming together against the odds. In hindsight you tend to think, "jeez, what were the chances of all that happening like that".

Crap weather at Norfolk and no alternate are bloody big holes in the cheese.

[arawa]

Hi guys,
Bushy, hope I can answer some of your questions...
for my 2 bobs worth , I have 3000+ hours in the Westwind, both 1 & 2 ), and have done LOTS of overwater flights....longest single sector being 1272nm....doing this 3 or 4 days per week.
The WW could happily depart BNE with 2 crew, 8 pax, bags a little freight, and go BNE-Kieta and carry either Port Moresby/Rabaul/Kavieng as the alternate...and for the disbelievers who are type rated, and think Im not, in certain temps, we did 0 flap due second segment.....that should answer yr question....but to be fair, we had a low basic weight, and I dont know what NGA's was.
We carried freight or 8-10 pax....and also the odd medivac which were normally premmie babies or nasty mine accidents, and carried life jackets PLUS a couple of rafts INSIDE the cabin...tight fit ...no..but space was used very efficiently...F/o used to do a FULL safety demo before each departure showing how to use jacket, and where rafts were kept etc..
We had an AOC plus an Ops manual. So the line guys had a good idea on how to do things....and this was the 1980's.....
So what has changed re oceanic flights..?
As far as Pelair is concerned, the C&t guys are good, CP used to be good, but manuals and ops procedures let down by CASA.....I am sure there are a few ex AN F-28 and B-200 Norfolk Is guys reading this and thinking of their days going into Norfolk Is with its rapidly changing Wx conditions...and " what on earth was he thinking"...sure he didnt have enough fuel, but was it his first time ?... what exactly does the Ops manual say ?...and Im NOT taking ANY info 60 idiots has to say..... was there a problem getting fuel into the tip tanks????..remember those "pull sticks".....maybe JMac and a few others at CASA will have to make sure that Island holding is considered for all ops.......as for Ops into Islands...how about a few opinions from guys who used to fly the Chieftans from Pt Macq to Lord Howe....I would think they would have had fuel consumption plus numerous options planned every 30 mins......but at the end of the day, they did ALL get out..which is good..

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

The fusulage snapped at the rear bulk head taking many hydraulic lines with it.If that isn't a hydraulic failure I don't know what is. In a previose life I worked on westwinds for over 10 years. In a situation like this it is not at all suprising that the gear free fell down after impact. So please don't talk crap

I guess the "Under-water landing gear free-fall test" that was carried out as part of its certification would reveal the answer to that question!

Dr :8

[Jabawocky]

Just been thinking more about this scenario and what would you do in a similar situation.

the TAF was
TAF AMD TAF AMD YSNF 180803Z 1808/1824 26008KT 9999 BKN010 FM181500 16012KT 9999 -SHRA BKN010 RMK
(the one before it was quite friendly however)

By my rough estimates at the point they received wx advice (904pm local) they were approximately 312nm or a bit more from Norfolk and around 360nm or so from Noumea. They are now faced with BKN at 1000 and well below the Alternate Minima, without carrying an alternate, yet still with 1hr 20 or more from the flame out (and several climbs so maybe a lot more cruise time), so they were at that point well within in striking range of Noumea plus reserves.

Why would they press on and not divert?

Why try to hide the fuel emergency from ATC and the UNICOM? They may have been able to add some clarity. If they had at the point the weather was passed to them would they have headed the advice to divert then or kept going? Did they realise they had a fuel emergency prior to TOD?

Why were they not thinking clearly about this? Fatigue perhaps? Or just far too brave!

More questions...........:confused:

[Capt Fathom]

Same old questions being dragged out over and over again! :yuk:

The lives of many people have been turned on their heads, and this continued questioning and speculation is unhelpful and just plain disrespectful to those involved.

[Wally Mk2]

"arawa" TY for yr input:ok: I'd be very surprised if the WW couldn't have done this task with full gas & the pax/gear they had to carry.

Hey 'jaba' these are very good Q's & no doubt CASA have asked as much a few times. I'd say that "press-on-itis" was a part of this as it has been for a lot of us right from day one of flying in CMD even in a C172 VFR. It's 'she'll be right mate' we'll get in, that thought is very real in a commercial world!
I believe that the French CASA might have had some past issues with PelAir (call it a hunch) & this particular flight didn't consider it as an ALT again possibly to commercial pressure/s. Who knows we on the outside can only guess to some degree & after all this is just a rumor site but even if there where some restrictions to PelAir operating into French New Cal one could always declare a mercy flight & you can pretty much do what ya bloody like to save life & limb. Just the thought of arriving at Norfolk with no options other than to land would send shivers up my spine. Hindsight is a wonderful thing & am sure the Capt would have diverted to New Cal when it was starting to look ugly but the thought of having to explain the mess they would have ended up in had they diverted to the PelAir, the French authorities and not to mention the cost blow out would have been an awful lot of pressure besides the end result of having to ditch would have been a long way from the Capt's mind at the time.
At the end of the day we weren't there, we all sit here in the comfort of our homes/offices & 'pretend' we are at the controls on such an ill fated flight, lets hope that we can ALL learn from this guys mistakes for a safer future.

More to come am sure, good & bad


Wmk2
Thanks

[puff]

Couple of questions that were asked of the patient and husband at the end of the show lastnight.

Chat: Bernie and Gary Currall (http://sixtyminutes.ninemsn.com.au/webchats/1024585/chat-bernie-and-gary-currall)


minfuel asks: Did you receive any briefing and instructions from the crew prior to the aircraft ditching? Furthermore did you receive a proper safety briefing from the crew prior to departure?

Gary: We received a very brief explanation how to operate the emergency exit from the Doctor before we departed. The co-pilot told us we would ditch and the doctor handed out life jackets and placed two life rafts in the aisle of the aircraft. That’s about the only instruction we got.

arfur asks: Did the captain assisted you getting off the plane as it seems a little odd that he appeared to jump "ship" ......as you mentioned that he ran past you ?

Gary: The pilot was the first to exit the plane. As far as I'm aware he didn't assist anybody.

[Whiskey Oscar Golf]

Truth Boy, not wanting to get into this as it does seem rather pointless, but yes there does appear to be a snapped airframe. This may well have sheared the hydraulic lines. Did this snapped airframe occur because the landing gear was down when it hit the water? Or did the gear come down after impact? I don't know, and as far as I can tell no report has, as yet shown anything either way. So until we have the final report, anything said by you in this regard is unsubstantiated speculation and helpful to no one. Sorry for again speaking "crap" but I'd rather have the experts unbiased view.

Regards

[truth boy]

Actually good point. The nose looks unlocked but if the gear was down as you suggest it may have been unlocked by the force of the water. Time will tell but expierience tells me that the gear was most likely up.

[megle2]

Dr

Why the continual bashing of C.A.S.A.

Thats an odd statement!

[Jamair]

My understanding of the difference between Airwork (Air Ambulance) and Charter....

If the AoC holder (in this case Pelair) was contracted by the client (the insurance provider) to provide an air-ambulance service, for which it subsequently hired an aeromedical crew (Careflight) to perform, then it will be air work.

If an aedromedical service provider (in this case Careflight) was contracted by the client to provide an aeromedical evacuation, to which end the aeromedical service provider chartered an aircraft and crew from an AoC holder (in this case from Pelair), then it is a charter.

Will have to wait to see the investigation and the operational documentation to see which case applied.

Does anyone know if the CVR and/or FDR have been recovered?

[1746]

Arawa, check your PMs ....

[Centaurus]

Gary: The pilot was the first to exit the plane. As far as I'm aware he didn't assist anybody

Two pilot aircraft -exits being one main door and two window exits down the back. The pilot probably has no idea if the passengers have been able to get out so his first duty would be to leap out and try to open the main door to evacuate everyone only to find it is jammed. He then finds a window exit and gets out presuming others will follow him through. In the water filled cabin it is pitch dark and people are not only disorientated but can't locate the exits.

Seems to me that rather than deserting everyone, the pilot did the best he could to get exits open to facilitate everyone's escape.

[KLN94]

The 60 Minutes story was a disgraceful piece of sensationalist journalism designed to generate the most ratings from a fearful general populace.

The frequent use of dramatic words such as 'terror', the Oscar worthy dramatisation, complete with perspiration soaked pilot and a ditching animation showing the gear in the down position, all demosntrate that the producer's intent of the story had little to do with the truth but rather generating the most ratings.

I understand the three people who were on board that night each were paid large sums of money to appear. I thought cheque book journalism had to be declared...?

The whinging Pommie patient and her husband, 'the victims', after receiving dodgy medical treatment in Samoa, did what most would do, and called 'the ambulance' to take them to a proper hospital. The 'ambulance' had an accident on the way. Even though all got out and lived to collect their $20K plus cheques each for their 60 Minutes stories, the 'ambulance driver' became the subject of everyone's scorn.

Do you think the flight crew, doctor and nurse really wanted to be up there that night medivacing a patient suffereing 'elective surgery' complications? No, but they did, because it was their job. Flying an air ambulance.

The final transcript of the 60 Minutes chat room may be an indication of the true intent of the Pommie 'victims';

giantbird asks: I cannot imagine how you must feel almost being killed. What justice are you looking for.

Gary: That is something we are taking advice upon and I can't really comment at this stage. I hope you will understand.

Interviewer: I am sorry we are out of time, do you have anything else you would like to share before we finish tonight?

Sue for as much as they can get maybe? First establish loss, identify the perpetrator, build up as much material for the discovery, then file your case.

Gives a new definition of 'Ambulance Chasers'...

I wonder if there will be a person in the future, who is on a remote island somewhere and is really hurt and will die unless they are medivac'ed out immediately and he or she finds out that as a result of the witch hunt directed at the pilot of NGA, the aeromedical operator and/or its pilots, following OP orders to the T, will somehow elect not to fly due to the conditions prevalent on that day...and that person dies.

What has 60 Minutes done..?

[MyNameIsIs]

KLN94
Do you think the flight crew, doctor and nurse really wanted to be up there that night medivacing a patient suffereing 'elective surgery' complications? No, but they did, because it was their job. Flying an air ambulance.


If they didn't want to be there doing their 'job' then they are in the wrong job and need to change.

[KLN94]

I meant up there, in questionable weather, at night, over water, rather than in better conditions.

And yes, they were up there that night, precisley because it was their job.

Thankfully there are people like that, who desire to do such things, for the benefit of others. Like other emergency services personell; ambulance, fire, police etc.

I think many people have been missing the point over this incident.

[smoka21]

The basic points are these:

A fuel policy dictates minimum fuel load, not the fuel load that is necessarily carried, that's up to the PIC.

Any pilot that proceeds to a single runway airport in the pacific in the middle of the night,regardless of weather, without the fuel to go elsewhere, is an idiot.

[Jabawocky]

KLN94

I think you are missing the point. The idea of having a professional crew in a Jet to retrieve you, be it charter or air work is that they operate in a safe and professional manner. Had they done this, a perfectly servicable aircraft would not be an artificial reef by now.

When the penny started to drop they were not going to have a flight according to plan, they still had options in my opinion and somebody (ATSB or CASA take note if you read this) should investigate why and what pressure was there not to use a runway at the end of an ILS over their right shoulder. Unless someone can show me why they would not have made that runway.

[smoka21]

See the last word of my last post. There's your answer.

[adsyj]

KLN94

Isn't the point that a flight overwater to a remote destination was planned without an alternative.

"The point" I would of thought was fairly straightforward, the why is the issue.

The rest of your post is rubbish.

Unfortuanetly an accident happened, fortuanetly no lives were lost. The end result of the investigation should be such that lessons are learned and future operations of this type will be planned and operated in a safe manner.

[Dogimed]

The 'ambulance' had an accident on the way. Even though all got out and lived to collect their $20K plus cheques each for their 60 Minutes stories, the 'ambulance driver' became the subject of everyone's scorn.


The Ambulance driver scorn is warranted if the driver made poor decisions that contributed to the Ambulance being in an accident..

[RENURPP]

If I were given the option of staying in a remote location like Samoa or being transfered by this organisation and in particular that captain, based on the info to date (yes I know the final report isn't out) I would be seriously considering even on a cavok day taking my chances in Samoa. The 60 mins episode may have been sensational but tell me where the innacuracies are?
Screw the PC amongst us, it was a giant size screw up by the crew and they almost killed six people.

[rotaryman]

Any pilot that proceeds to a single runway airport in the pacific in the middle of the night,regardless of weather, without the fuel to go elsewhere, is an idiot.

I think that about covers it? :ugh:

How any pilot could explain why you would fly a perfectly servicable aircraft into the ocean would have to be good.

Each one of the pax and crew should buy a lottery ticket. damm lucky to be alive. not even a mayday call - :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[The Original Jetpipe]

After finally getting around to watching the program, I have to add my comments. The U/C is down and does seem to be in the lock position as the leg is supporting the a/c wing, both sides. To support this conclusion the drag brace looks to over centered (Paused the screen to have a good look) Also the gear door is also in the "down and locked" position.

I noticed that the pax had no contact from PelAir since the incident???? I do hope they have a good lawyer!!!

Why did they not interview the "real owner" PelAir, as we all know is LHK!!!

[Gnd Power]

The whinging Pommie patient and her husband, 'the victims', after receiving dodgy medical treatment in Samoa, did what most would do, and called 'the ambulance' to take them to a proper hospital. The 'ambulance' had an accident on the way. Even though all got out and lived to collect their $20K plus cheques each for their 60 Minutes stories, the 'ambulance driver' became the subject of everyone's scorn.

Yep, rather poor form to have a whinge after almost being killed. :rolleyes:

[Howard Hughes]

The whinging Pommie patient and her husband,
Seriously does it really matter where the passengers are from? I expect they are Australian Citizens anyway!:rolleyes:

What we are talking about is the pilot in commands responsibilities and these are clearly set out in the CAR's:

224 Pilot in command
(1) For each flight the operator shall designate one pilot to act as
pilot in command.
Penalty: 5 penalty units.

(1A) An offence against subregulation (1) is an offence of strict
liability.
Note For strict liability, see section 6.1 of the Criminal Code.

(2) A pilot in command of an aircraft is responsible for:
(a) the start, continuation, diversion and end of a flight by the
aircraft; and
(b) the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight time;
and
(c) the safety of persons and cargo carried on the aircraft; and
(d) the conduct and safety of members of the crew on the
aircraft.

(2A) A pilot in command must discharge his or her responsibility
under paragraph (2) (a) in accordance with:
(a) any information, instructions or directions, relating to the
start, continuation, diversion or end of a flight, that are
made available, or issued, under the Act or these
regulations; and
(b) if applicable, the operations manual provided by the
operator of the aircraft.

(3) The pilot in command shall have final authority as to the
disposition of the aircraft while he or she is in command and
for the maintenance of discipline by all persons on board.

233 Responsibility of pilot in command before flight
(1) The pilot in command of an aircraft must not commence a
flight if he or she has not received evidence, and taken such
action as is necessary to ensure, that:

(a) the instruments and equipment required for the particular
type of operation to be undertaken are installed in the
aircraft and are functioning properly;
(b) the gross weight of the aircraft does not exceed the
limitations fixed by or under regulation 235 and is such
that flight performance in accordance with the standards
specified by CASA for the type of operation to be
undertaken is possible under the prevailing conditions; and
(c) any directions of CASA with respect to the loading of the
aircraft given under regulation 235 have been complied
with;
(d) the fuel supplies are sufficient for the particular flight;
(e) the required operating and other crew members are on
board and in a fit state to perform their duties;
(f) the air traffic control instructions have been complied
with;
(g) the aircraft is safe for flight in all respects; and
(h) the latest editions of the aeronautical maps, charts and
other aeronautical information and instructions, published
in AIP or by a person approved in writing, that are
applicable:
(i) to the route to be flown; and
(ii) to any alternative route that may be flown on that
flight; are carried in the aircraft and are readily accessible to the
flight crew.

Penalty: 50 penalty units.

[PA39]

What happened to CP and PNR calcs ? Sh**t wouldn't you call up for an ACTUAL on the remote island, long before you reached that stage? i can tell you one thing the PIC and FO showed a remarkably disgusting display of planning/airmanship and duty of care. Neither would last five minutes on my team. Running out of fuel is an UNFORGIVEABLE sin in any aircraft let alone Island hopping to remotes. As far as the poor "pommy whinger", christ have a brain, these people placed their lives in the hands of incompetent idiots. Running out of fuel at night over water in extremely poor weather.......come on. Last but by no means least, there were 2 pilots.....one should have been the very last person out after ensuring all pax were safe. No argument. :mad::mad::mad:

[puff]

I wonder if there will be a person in the future, who is on a remote island somewhere and is really hurt and will die unless they are medivac'ed out immediately and he or she finds out that as a result of the witch hunt directed at the pilot of NGA, the aeromedical operator and/or its pilots, following OP orders to the T, will somehow elect not to fly due to the conditions prevalent on that day...and that person dies.


This happens today and every day. A friend works for the RFDS and i'm sure that Wally would probable be able to mention quite a few incidents where his decision NOT to go cost a life. They were told right from the beginning that at times they would have to either knock back a flight at flight planning, or divert inflight knowing full well their decision to do so could cost a life. This is something all crew of medivac aircraft/helicopter/military have to take onboard as there is NO point risking the lives sometimes up to of all the personel onboard (sometimes up to 3-4) to save ONE life. RFDS/ all medivac crews do an amazing job, but its not a dangerous and reckless operation where the rule book is thrown out the window to 'get the job done'.

Going via Norfolk was NOT the only way this flight could have proceeded. I think to insult the unwilling participants of this 'incident' is a real low blow KLN94. In my opinion I believe they seemed to be quite level headed 'normal' people, not after anything more than most of us would be feeling if it was us onboard.

If you went to a doctor and the operation was botched would you not be after answers, want to stop it from happening to someone else, and want compensation? Do you believe all the people fighting for justice in QLD from Dr Patel are all 'Ambulance chasers' as well ?

Surely KLN94 your post has to be a windup.

[Wally Mk2]

Well said "puff" So true there is NOTHING that would make us (RFDS) go outside the rules of common sense to save someone. A few of us 'lifers' (older guys) have experienced the sadness that someone didn't make it probably because we couldn't do the task due Wx for Eg. The chopper boys do an amazing job but even they stay on the grnd when it's really bad. We provide a service & a damn good one at that but it's not a 'death defying' service.


KLN I think yr fellow pears here have said enough re yr post. I won't add to it much other than to say we are all entitled to an opinion here even if you are somewhat harsh. The PIC was ultimately responsible for EVERYTHING that went on with this flight, the buck has to stop somewhere!.

Nothing stops a pilot from making decisions different to a Co's SOP's if he deems it necessary for the safe conduct of a flight once it's getting ugly. SOP's are great & needed but sheeeez they are a guide in some ways but they don't mean you leave yr brains at home!

Okay as has been mentioned flying out to an Is with only a single rwy is asking for trouble without an ALT. The WX aspect in this story is just one part of the possibilities that could go wrong on such a mission. RWY lighting could fail, disabled A/C on that single RWY making the AD U/S for Christ knows how long so having dodgy WX is only part of the overall risks. In this case the WX caught them out that's the crux of this whole thread what about next time? It doesn't end there.
There's a lot still unanswered here but what is fairly obvious to date is not enough fuel for contingencies was carried for whatever reason. Some poor decision making en-route re diverting was made or not made depending on how you look at it.

As has been said before what powerful force/s found this qualified pilot without options at the end of a flight that he thought would be okay from the outset? That's what I want to know. Don't forget this guy had been flying for 1000's of hrs prior to this event, most of us have right here so again simply how did he end up nearly dead along with 5 others?

More to come am sure.

Wmk2

[truth boy]

Been having more of a think about the lowered gear and although im a bit rusty im sure i still remember how it operates.

The gear can stay in the retracted position for a given amount of time even with no Hyd pressure to hold it up. Basically the gear control valve in the nose that is directly attached to the gear handle effectively locks the fluid in the lines holding the gear. If you selected gear down with no pressure the gear would fall and in most cases would overcentre and lock within seconds.This happens by allowing the fluid to move through the gear control valve to the extend ports. The retract ports would go to return.

Now in this case since the fusulage of the aircraft was ripped off taking the gear control valve with it. I think its safe to say that both the extend and retract lines were vented to the pacific. This would allow the gear to fall. Now this does not tell us if the gear was up or down at impact. This will come out in time. But just because they are down and locked in the video does not mean they were at impact. With the aircraft in this condition the gear would have fallen no matter what position the gear handle was in. Period.

[ozangel]

The 60mins segment served a good purpose - try not to get too caught up in the specifics and understand that they were presenting the show in a manner that your average viewer will comprehend. (in many cases, statistically the audience has a grade 8 education!).

Yes, there was nothing 'too' mindblowingly new about it for most of us - on the other hand it will cause ripples that have the potential to reveal the many core issues people speak of (inept regulator - dodgy management - etc).

The last decade has seen more than a couple of close calls on flights to and from NLK - some well known, others not so much. My concern is whether this will be a big enough wake up call for bean counters to understand that they are toiling with human lives and not just insurance premiums. The true test of tombstone technology is whether lessons can be learnt from 'close calls' or does it continue until a memorial is erected.

The issue is amplified by the fact that like erebus for nz, such an event has the potential to affect us all on a very very personal level.

I fear that if this is not enough to spur the regulator into being more than a token paper tiger, what will be must surely be an incomprehensible disaster.

If it were to do with increasing fees, adding a level of administration to medicals, exams or so forth, they would be far more proactive??

[Dogimed]

YouTube - Norfolk Island Medevac Ditching (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqzYFSgkfb8)

Norfolk Local news... Amazing.. D should be buying these guys drinks for the rest of his life..

Dog

[eagle 86]

KLN94
I've worked in EMS since 1986 the catchcry is always "risk vs gain" - yes sometimes, for any number of many reasons, the aircraft does not fly and the outcome is not good.
GAGS

[Capt Claret]

medivacing a patient suffereing 'elective surgery' complications

Not only elective surgery but surgery contrary to their employment contract! :eek:

[Counter-rotation]

Clarrie, can you explain a bit about your statement in that post?

Cheers,
CR.

[Jamair]

Apart from the aircrew issues, will also be interesting to see the decision making matrix used by the Careflight crew in deciding the case warranted a night-time, long-distance, overwater retrieval....:hmm:

[Falling Leaf]

will also be interesting to see the decision making matrix used by the Careflight crew in deciding the case warranted a night-time, long-distance, overwater retrieval....

Are you suggesting that as the mission was Samoa - Melbourne, which by definition will mean "long distance, overwater retrieval" that the crew were in some position to knock the tasking back, just because it was at night?

When the insurance companies get around to approving the task, you go (as long as it is legal to do so, all other things considered). Usually, for some reason, the decisions are made late afternoon/early evening, so you are in for an all nighter most of the time.:cool:

[Hempy]

Still can't understand, given that it was a ditching and not CFIT, why the aircraft is sitting at the bottom of the ocean with it's gear down....anyone??

[ThePassingBay]

Heard the captain had his licence suspended. Fair enough pending investigation. But what about the first officer? ....:rolleyes:

[Mach E Avelli]

Passingbay what was the F/O supposed to do? Smash him over the head with the fire axe, take control and divert prior to PNR? Get real; this is G.A. not some outfit with 'Captain I must have your attention' written into its ethos.
F/O training in G.A. is not quite as thorough as it is with the real airlines, so I don't think it right to suggest that the lady deserves to have her licence pulled for being unfortunate enough to be there.

[Jamair]

Falling Leaf Long distance + overwater + night = a host of planning issues for the aircrew, such as fatigue, fuel, weather, navaids, alternates etc, most of which have been done to death here. With these issues in mind, and in consultation with the aircrew, the medical crew need to consider whether they believe the patient condition warrants the added risks, or whether the task can be delayed until a lower risk time....like daylight. Then they ask whether the aircrew are happy to undertake the flight.

The aircrew IS ABSOLUTELY IN A POSITION TO KNOCK THE TASKING BACK, regardless HOW urgent the medical crew (or insurer or anyone else) say it is.

Given that the patient was able to swim for 90 minutes post crash, then walk up the stairs into the RPT the next day..........:hmm:

[Capn Bloggs]

Hempy,
Still can't understand, given that it was a ditching and not CFIT, why the aircraft is sitting at the bottom of the ocean with it's gear down....anyone??
I gathered from the previous thread that in the WW, if the hydraulics fail (eg when aeroplane broke in three after impact/on the way down to the seabed) the gear falls down. Nothing sinister methinks.

[GADRIVR]

I'm with Wally. What background influences are sitting in the background to this whole drama?
This may be the start of some sort of heavier regulation in regards to GA ops and not before time.
One can wish I suppose.:suspect:

[Capt Claret]

Bloggs, I was talking with one of your off-sider's t'other day, who used to fly same type with the same organisation. If I understood his answer to me on the gear issue, he said there's a mechanical up-lock on the gear.

If correct, this doesn't explain the gear being down because of a hydraulic failure.

Counter-rotation, many organisations working in the region don't permit medical attention of the order undertaken, and direct their staff/families back home where better medical attention is available.

[morno]

KLN,
It has already been said, but I'd just like to enforce the message.

Coming from an aeromedical pilot myself, I would NEVER endanger the lives of myself or my crew, for anyone elses life. Yes, we do have the option of declaring a mercy flight, however mercy flights are still very controlled situations, whereby we might be breaking a rule, however we are trained and competent in completing the alternative means (such as a car headlight landing).

I would not, ever, declare a mercy flight for things such as going below approach minima's, into somewhere like Norfolk Island, just because someone is dieing at the other end.

That's part of the unfortunate end of our job. Sometimes decisions we make to protect the lives of our crew and ourselves, may mean that someone on the ground is going to die.

morno

[The Green Goblin]

There should be a mechanical uplock. While not common a total loss of hydraulic pressure could cause the gear to extend if the fluid is lost from the system.

Sounds to me like the gear was left down which would also explain why the fuselage is in pieces.

[MyNameIsIs]

Are we to expect an amendment to CAO82 (i think it was 82?) with regards to the alternate requirements/"remote" aerodromes?

You may remember the ambiguity raised in the previous NLK threads, and the different interpretations. This accident may cause CASA to amend them to something more clear-cut.....
Especially considering it appears (from other reports) that the supposed CASA dispensation for Pel-Air to not carry alternate fuel on aeromed flights may have been a somewhat contributing factor. The words 'arse covering' come to mind now!


Bloggs, in regards to Hempy's post, I've got the feeling that he means as the plane is still 'accessible' (ie not completely destroyed into a million bits), then how come it hasn't been raised to the surface?
Probably cost- but one would think recovering it may also provide other useful information.

Lester, it appears that "people with Westwind knowledge" have differing views on how the gear stays up! Some have said no uplocks, and just recently it has been mentioned that they do... Doesn't help those with no knowledge figure out what is going on!

[pcx]

Regarding the gear system in the Westwind, the following is a direct quote from the FlightSafety Westwind pilots training manual.

Normal Extension
Moving the landing gear control lever down positions the selector valve to direct pressure to the uplock cylinders on all three gear, releasing the uplocks. Pressure is also applied to the aft actuating cylinder on each main gear and to the extend side of the nose gear actuating cylinder to extend the gear.

Emergency Extension
If the main hydraulic system fails the landing gear can be extended with nitrogen pressure.
Placing the landing gear control lever down positions the selector valve to create a return path for fluid that had been trapped in the uplock cylinders.
Compressed springs extend the uplock cylinders, releasing the uplock mechanisms, and the gear free-falls toward the extended position.
It goes on to say that the emergency gear down lever will assure downlocking by applying nitrogen pressure to the relevant cylinders. (My paraphrasing of this paragraph.)

Looking at the hydraulic circuit diagram (which I have no idea how to post here), it is clear that if any of the uplock or retract lines are severed or leak this would have the same effect as positioning the gear control lever down and allow the compressed springs to extend the uplock cylinders and release the uplock mechanisms.

So it seems to me that the gear could be extended if the hydraulic lines to the uplock cylinders were damaged in the ditching. This is not to say that it did happen this way but it could have.

[ricknorm79]

Sorry if this is a naive question or if it's been answered already (couldn’t find an answer)… I know this is the million dollar question but why would there be company/management/peer pressure for a PIC to takeoff for such a flight without an alternate?

Is it simply economics? (i.e. lower take-off weight = less fuel burn = cheaper flight/more profit?)...

How much extra profit would a company be making by 'encouraging' their flight crew to take these risks? Are we talking hundreds of dollars saved, thousands?

Thanks for any answers :ok:

[Mach E Avelli]

The fuel price differentials between Apia, Norfolk and Brisbane would certainly save a few hundred dollars if fuel uplifts were optimised on a trip like this. Just guessing, but I would expect fuel to be cheaper in Apia than Norfolk, so the argument about minimising fuel costs doesn't seem right in this case. As for the 'it costs fuel to carry fuel' argument; this is true of large aircraft. It would hardly be a measurable factor in something the size of a small corporate jet. Going at max fuel might cost a few bucks in fuel excess burn , but in this case more than offset by the cost differential.

[Dances With Dingoes]

The 60 Minutes story was a disgraceful piece of sensationalist journalism designed to generate the most ratings from a fearful general populace.

KLN,

Just wondering if you are in fact DJ,,,,, Or DJ's mum? :ooh:

DD

[Tempo]

Dances with Dingos, Are you trying to say that the 60 min story was anything other than "a disgraceful piece of sensationalist journalism designed to generate the most ratings from a fearful general populace"???

60 min is a JOKE and anyone that actually believes anything reported on that show (or ACA/TT for that matter) needs to have a good hard look at themselves.

[The Butcher's Dog]

Minimum Fuel Policy in light aircraft???
Equals….”micro managing miniscule costs, and macro mangling assets” or for those that have been around….. “penny pinching and pound foolish”.

Great Aussie planning………….”she’ll be right mate”.

All good till you get the right (wrong) combination of events. "Swiss Cheese" is the term I believe.

[Capn Bloggs]

I thought it (60 Minutes) was pretty reasonable considering.

[RENURPP]

I'm off to the mirror bloggs, I think you should do like wise. Probably just scare ourselves.:eek:

I will ask the question again, which statements made on 60 mins were I Incorrect?:\

[Dances With Dingoes]

Tempo

I am not commenting on 60 minutes, I have no expertise to comment on the quality of media, just to say the that particular show has probably been getting the ratings since about the same time that DJ made his first mess in a nappy.

I am commenting that KLN seems to get very passionate about this topic to the point that I can not help but wonder if in fact he is

DJ,,,,, Or DJ's mum? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/icon25.gif

Are you related as well?

DD :E