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mensaboy
27th Feb 2010, 18:20
I am curious to read what EK pilots view as the short-to-medium term prospects for Emirates Airline.
(The issues regarding quality of life, Terms and Conditions, FTL's and a myriad of other negative changes will in all probability decline further and almost without a doubt there will not be any positive changes in those regards either, so please leave those issues to another thread)

What of the overall future for EK?

History shows that EK has always benefited from events which have negatively affected other airlines but will that trend continue?

This time... EK management has caused the turmoil while in the past, events outside the control of EK have been the root cause, and much to EK's credit, they usually took advantage of those events. There is no group of employees at this company who have a positive outlook on their present circumstances and even worse, most Emirates employees I have talked to recently, predict further declines. It seems implausible that in this instance, our management will be capable of taking an introspective look at their undeniable mismanagement of employees over the past 2 years.

Granted there are two groups, our top managers and those chosen to meet the quota for the Emiratization of this airline, who seem oblivious to the general morale and quality of life of the rest of us employees.

This is what I figure. EK might 'luck-out' yet again, and several more airlines will teeter on the brink of bankruptcy, and those airline's unfortunate employees will not heed the warnings about life at EK in Dubai, so the impending manpower disaster will not continue. Then, since no aircraft will be parked, management will not address the problems they have caused.

Or, something traumatic will happen on the world-wide scene, similar to past events such as SARS, a ME war, 9/11 or something else unpredictable. In this instance, pilots might stop leaving EK in droves, simply due to job security. Such an event will give our management team yet another excuse for their unwise decisions and the status quo will remain in effect.

Or, this might actually turn out to be the perfect storm for EK. Most employees at Emirates Airline have little confidence and respect for their respective managers, let alone the overall management of this airline, so even if they make some wise decisions in the short-term, in the long-term, NO ONE believes management has our best interests in mind.
This airline is committed to aircraft deliveries and since a large part of their business model is based on continued expansion, the wheels could fall off quite rapidly if they can't attract suitable employees for critical jobs or the predicted growth rate for ME airlines does not transpire.
Since EK's success is so interconnected with Dubai's success, in the past we had the luxury of full government support to be successful. But now, the tables have turned and EK is supporting Dubai and not the other way around. Decisions that are best for EK in the long run, might not be made because Dubai will mandate decisions that are best for Dubai in the short term.

Here are some facts which lead me to believe that this last hypothesis has become more likely.

-Dubai is in trouble and will continue to be in trouble for the foreseeable future
-Emirates Airline has a serious morale problem which has not been addressed properly. In fact, the management technique of 'fear and intimidation' is showing signs of back-firing.
-In the worst economic climate in almost a century, and one of the worst world-wide environments for the pilot profession, EK is losing pilots at an alarming rate (it is inexplicable without recognizing how poorly employees are treated at this airline)

-EK has Emiratized itself to the point there are many people in positions of authority, who have little insight, abilities and proper management styles to be able to comprehend or let alone address issues. (DW and Nakheel come to mind as examples)

-EK is still profitable. But that has come at a price, which is the good-will of its employees
-Long-term, work rates of pilots, CC and engineers (3 of the most important job classifications in any airline), are unsustainable
-EK has avoided, by the narrowest of margins in 3 instances, a major disaster. Will that trend continue? Hopefully... but anyone would be a fool to predict that.

-Sentiment towards Dubai has changed on the local and world-wide scene. Dare I say it, sentiment towards EK could change in a heartbeat as well
-This is ZERO indication from our mismanagement team that #1 there is even a problem and #2 that things will ever change


It is PEOPLE who make an airline successful and EK has lost sight of this fact
-the recent and future predicted ''shake-up'' of the flight ops management team, has been disguised as normal attrition.
Ed is leaving, thankfully, but he will replaced by another sycophant. The FMA departed, and although it was quietly announced months ago, he was gone long before airbus pilots stopped emailing him regarding things such as the B777 transition fiasco. M, the big cheese, is rumored to be on his way to a comfy 'retirement' home. TC, will be shifted to M's previous job as the ceremonial spokesman for the airline. AAR, well who the hell knows what his future holds and how much damage he will continue to cause to this airline.
-so take a look at the recent replacements. MM appeared to be an honest, intelligent and professional choice but already those initial views of him are changing. He is likely on the fast-track to promotion and naturally this will bring out his worst qualities. The FMA replacement, by all accounts, was the worst choice imaginable and IMHO, this viewpoint will be proven correct over the following few months.

EK has proven over time, that when things get tough, management gets tougher on its employees. There is one SINGULAR thing that will cause our management team to alter things to the benefit of the employees, and that is when aircraft 'might' be parked and not out there making money.

Bottom line is this... if planes continue to fly, EK continues to receive the odd award for inflight something or other, and there is no major catastrophy, then things will not change.

I am of the view that this airline has but a few months to avoid an inevitable long-term decline. If any present pilots at EK have more information and insight, pls take the time to make a post here. I don't want to be the last rat leaving this sinking ship, haha.

SOMI58
27th Feb 2010, 19:22
Heard from an insider this evening.Bidding system for EK CCs will be closed down in the near future.Pilots' system to follow...
Keep discovering...
Happy landings boys.

fatbus
28th Feb 2010, 04:34
Line bidding with min number days off each and every month for all bid groups, blanks filled in with AD days( basically reserve ) So top bid group 2 ULR's a UK and 5-6 AD's (read night turns x 3)

PorkKnuckle
28th Feb 2010, 04:59
when aircraft 'might' be parked and not out there making money.


Might isn't enough. They keep their heads buried in the ass and hope for the best. It's WHEN they're parked that changes happen.

Heard from an insider this evening.Bidding system for EK CCs will be closed down in the near future

New CC are now not allowed to bid during the 6month probation period. After that, bidding is allowed. That's the change. Nothing more than that. Pilots - unaffected.

nitrowired
3rd Mar 2010, 08:14
Hi guys, it seems that EK is not a wise choice if you have already a job somewhere else in the world where you enjoy freedom and lifestyle. But what if you are already here, living in Dubai flying for a low cost? Is it worse than having the same 100h a month and 900 a year, flying 2 to 3 nights in a row with around 15 trips a month? And yes, I drive there myself on my car doing around 100km each day I go to work. Money wise seems to be better but then you have to pay for everything, housing and DEWA included.
My question is: Is it worth the move to EK if you are already stuck here in the sandpit? I see couple advantages like ID tickets and so plus most of the disadvantages are already here. So any thoughts on that?

xkred27
3rd Mar 2010, 10:27
Then why the f@%K did you join a low cost in such a **** hole
to start with. EK are banking on rejects like you to join.

apron
3rd Mar 2010, 11:20
Think that comment is a little harsh and hasty. YOU do not know people's personal circumstances and with the global econony as it has been whether the job offered to him was the ONLY job available at the time to pay his mortgage!

The guy asked a fairly basic honest question and got a T@#T like you offering a personal appraisal on his suitablity for EK...Pr@t :=

NEWYEAR
3rd Mar 2010, 11:32
Hi:)

If you were unemployed, would you work in Emirates? and Why?

Than:)ks

616200
3rd Mar 2010, 11:54
NEWYEAR,
Because it's better than being unemployed(barely)... :E

GMDS
3rd Mar 2010, 13:30
back to topic:

Emirates short-to-medium term predictions (http://www.pprune.org/middle-east/407170-emirates-short-medium-term-predictions.html#post5547204)

No doubt, the fabled XX is a mess, a corporate Black Swan like few the modern world has seen. A year ago, it was zooming along reasonably well even as economies crashed. While YY was put on government life support, XX was plotting a future for itself. Hubris accompanied XX headlong drive to be No 1. It compromised the quality and safety that made its reputation. An arrogant and non-transparent crisis response further tarnished trust. XX must work hard to regain it. - ….. – By putting profit ahead of safety, XX lost its way …

And there the analogy ends. You guessed right, its Toyota this genuine article talks about.
It continues with the following:

Toyoda (CEO) said “I sincerely regret”.

Now that's something we will never ever hear from an EK top-shot. In this part of the world they never learn.
So the next and last citation will eventually not happen at EK:

… Toyota lost its way – but not its future.

(Citations Bloomberg)

atpcliff
8th Mar 2010, 12:06
Hi!

Every month aviation is improving in the US. More and more carriers and companires hiring, with more to follow.

Press release just out: China to buy 218 aircraft this year.

Not good news for EK!

cliff
NBO

EKBemused
8th Mar 2010, 12:34
I disagree,
This company will continue to expand and find enough pilots to man their aircraft.
There are alot of worse companies to work for and alot of places worse than Dubai.
All they will do is lower their standards, which already has been done in other departments.
The fact is that no one can compete with middle eastern airlines, for they have the lowest operating costs.
They pay a middle manager less than a baggage handler in the west.
Yes slavery is acceptable in their culture and belief.
They pay Aed 700 to slaves from Asia and think it is fine as there are so many starving people in the world, they will keep comming.
Yes many good pilots will leave and be replaced by average ones, but the expantion will not stop.
There are too many worse places and companies to work for.
As bad as things have become over the last two years here, they are still better than many.
This paracite Emirates is unstoppable for the simple reason there is so much poverty in this world that they can exploit, and they will.
Slavery is acceptable in Islam.

noise of freedom
8th Mar 2010, 12:43
sounds like qatar airways....:mad:.
we'll see what is going to happen in 2 years time....

cheers

atpcliff
9th Mar 2010, 00:59
Hi!

I don't think that EK CAN fill enough slots in time just by lowering their minimums, because EK will realize that the minimums required to do it will be too low for them to accept. Hopefully for EK, by that time, it won't be too late to start improving T&C's rapidly enough for the existing pilots, so that they will stay and/or recruit their higher-quality friends, to avert a meltdown.

cliff
NBO

ekwhistleblower
9th Mar 2010, 04:53
I think the Middle East is about to become one of the largest importers ever seen of cheese to go with all the w(h)ine.

Why not start up a little project and actually go and compare what EK gives you and what it doesn't, what Dubai gives you and what it doesn't and then make a decision about whether you really are worse or better off in the sand pit. Only you can decide, for the vast majority of the pilots despite the rhetoric from a few they have a reasonably nice lifestyle compared to many in the industry.

Lots of posts with lots of guff about improving markets elsewhere and guys spring loaded to leave, I look forward to the mass exodus (if it comes) because that is the time at which the Middle Eastern carriers will significantly improve the package to attract more people. Many of those posts appear to come from guys that were disgruntled at their previous outfit or even lost their jobs and then came to EK. I don't know where most of these posters are from but lets face it we could actually all be the same person self flagellating and using multiple nicknames to try and put our own point out as gospel. Some could even be senior execs from a competitor such is the weakness of an unregulated open forum, that accusation has been leveled at one LC CEO.

I do know that some of the rantings would actually depress me (if they are genuine posters) because they come from guys expressing the view that they wish to be paid as professionals but just by tapping a key damage the image of all professional pilots around the world. Pilots have and will always be their own worst enemies. Do you ever see doctors/lawyers telling everyone how easy their job is and slagging off their employers? No because they actually have a professional attitude to their line of work.

So my spin on the Middle East:

Qatar - dodgy because the CEO was making guys eat sh1t even before the economic crash and Doha is not my cup of tea anyway.

Emirates - upset the employees due to communication of changes and dashed expectations. Some of those expectations were clearly pie in the sky even before the guys joined.

Etihad - newbies on the street all is golden until they become a mature airline and then they will face the same difficulties as the other two. Right now they have not been running long enough to crush too many expectations.

So then let’s look around the world at how great everyone else is doing:

Easy guys bleating about how the orange monster has deteriorated.

Ryan guys bleating about having to bring everything to work (probably even their own toilet paper).

BA screwed by the CC to the extent that pilots and ground staff are prepared to work to fill the void to try and protect their T&Cs when the doomed strike occurs. Willy Walsh sharpening the 'knives or waiting for the petard hoisting to begin.

Virgin dump crew quicker than I can take a dump whenever there is a whiff of the red in their bottom line. Branson then does a few interviews to show what a top businessman he really is and how much he cares about his staff.

Air France/KLM about to have the mother of all disasters with a massive billion euro loss (allegedly) I bet the guys at their spin offs (City etc) will be horrified as they are cut loose when a long haul FO makes 3 times as much as they do. They have the biggest pension black hole ever seen and it is only a question of time before it strangles them. They still try to apply legacy conditions because of union strength in France sadly the coffers are running dry and they'll do a Sabena unless they change pronto.

The US carriers; furloughs still yet to be recalled and profits yet to be made. How any industry can work by offering deals to those at the top of the tree which involve ditching the new joiners if there is a cough in Tibet amazes me!

So I believe from a business point of view the medium/long term prospects in the Middle East are better than average until the total saturation of the market. The fact is that the cost base makes us globally competitive and Europe and the US have not really addressed it yet. Legacies such as AF/KLM did well when anyone could turn a profit but in the more challenging economic times they will have to adapt or die. The LCs in Europe dominate the short haul market, only slot regulation is protecting long haul.

As to T&Cs, they will only change dramatically when there is a real shortage of skilled labour as we all know it just comes down to supply and demand. I can't see that in the short term (however much some would wish for it). Why? I would be amazed if there are not at least 5 major staff retrenchments within Europe and the US in the next 12 months.

So endeth the gospel according to EKWB, all I was trying to do was put a little perspective into the debate. Many will tell me it is a crock and that is their right, but it is how I see it. I just wish a few would be more professional in their outpourings so that the perception of the pilot group by the top execs in the industry might be changed and then we might actually be listened to. Have a great day.

BYMONEK
9th Mar 2010, 06:32
No crock as far as i'm concerned. Well written and observant to the issues faced by many airlines out there. I guess most of the frustration on these forums is because EK has the potential to be, literally, the best flying job in the World.

Unfortunately, this potential is hampered by incompetence, racism, self centered greed, arrogance, lies and blatant examples of nepotism. Rid ourselves of those and they'd be banging on the door to get in........ not out!

FlyingCroc
9th Mar 2010, 09:16
The Gulf is at the moment and probably in the next couple of years still quite a good place to fly as a pilot compared to Europe or America.
The biggest headache is however to live in the sandpit and miss out a lot of a normal lifestyle that we are used to in the West. It is our choice, either to carry the two buckets or move on and maybe have to do something else in life.

fjordviking
10th Mar 2010, 09:00
You have to understand why you were not welcome for an interview. You have type rating on IA 1124. (Israel Aerospace Westwind.) You have faked your logbook because there is no such company or land. It does not exist. It`s Palestine, hence you have fake hours in your logbook and fake endorsement on your license.

Yossarian
11th Mar 2010, 18:41
Bottom line at EK is cost savings are the excuse for irrepressible greed. Tough for the employees, great for the shareholders who have never seen a loss.

BigEasy
13th Mar 2010, 16:31
Dear lpokijuhyt,
Dont waste your time applying for EK, with this mindset/attitude you wont even make the 1st day interview...:=