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Cynic78
22nd Feb 2010, 19:01
Does anyone know if King Air captain hours (e.g. flown as a QFI at 45(R) Sqn) count as multi-engine captain hours towards the 1000 needed for an ATPL without having to do all the exams? I heard a rumour that although the RAF flies the King Air as a multi-engine, multi-crew aircraft, the CAA class it as single pilot and therefore the hours wouldn't count. However, the King Air's predecessor, the Jetstream, was certainly accepted so I'm not sure.

Paul Chocks
22nd Feb 2010, 21:18
Don't know how it works in the fixed-wing world (suggest you check in LASORS), but for us rotary guys, time spent instructing, even on a 2 pilot helicopter is not (or wasn't when I did my licenses) accepted as multi-pilot time. It had to be "genuine" two-pilot operations, as if teaching genuine two pilot ops isn't good enough!!

Chicken Leg
23rd Feb 2010, 08:58
As Tourist said, I think you are confusing the two requirements; although I don't think that Tourist explained it fully either! (Sorry Tourist!)

There are two requirements for ATPL issue. The first is the hours required in a multi pilot environment, the second is a Type Rating on a multi pilot aircraft.

If you can show the CAA that you have operated a type (any type) as multi pilot, they should award you the hours requirment - I managed to persuade them that my Gazelle hours count based on my logbook showing multi pilot operations. Where you will come unstuck is that the King Air is classed as a single pilot aircraft, so unless you get another TR on a Multi Pilot Aircraft, you won't be able to unfreeze your CPL on the King Air alone.

I had this very conversation with the CAA just over a year ago, and this information was correct then. I don't believe anything has changed since, but I stand to be corrected.

Edited to say that I don't believe that the Authority will accept instructional hours as multi pilot hours; they certainly didn't when I was doing my license stuff. As I said above though, as long as you can show that you have the required amount of hours in a multi pilot environment on any type, they should award you that part of the requirement.

Cynic78
23rd Feb 2010, 15:59
Thanks for the info.

I was trying to figure out whether the hours count towards the military bridging package to allow me to skip some of the exams. I understand that I'd need a type rating on a recognized multi-engine type to unfreeze an ATPL, which I could have by moving on to another multi-engine type after the King Air. But from what you are saying any hours INSTRUCTING on any aircraft wouldn't count towards the requirement for the military bridging package, in which case I would need to make up the hours on another type. Do I have the basic gist of it or am I being thick?!

BEagle
23rd Feb 2010, 19:12
Cynic78, have you:
- 2000 hours on military aircraft (not including taxy time)
- 1500 hours PIC on military aircraft (of which 500 can be as co-pilot P1 time). This includes ALL flights for which you were PIC, whether or not you were giving instruction.
- Graduated from a ME OCU?

Without the answers to these questions, it is not possible to advise you.

Cynic78
23rd Feb 2010, 20:38
BEagle,

Not yet to the 1st 2 questions (but that is the plan before I leave), yes to the 3rd.

Chicken Leg
23rd Feb 2010, 22:21
I understand that I'd need a type rating on a recognized multi-engine type to unfreeze an ATPL

Be careful here. It's not a TR on a multi engine type that you need. It's a TR on a multi PILOT type. Sorry if that sounds pedantic, but as stated above, there are many multi engine aircraft that are classed as single pilot (the King Air, as was pointed out) and would not therefore unfreeze your ATPL.

As far as the Mil Bridging goes, Beagle is much better qualified to advise you there!

BEagle
23rd Feb 2010, 22:55
Cynic78, you won't be credited with any theoretical knowledge requirements until you have achieved the requirements of Qq1-2 above. Unless, that is, you have a PPL with FRTOL - you would then at least be credited with any RT requirements.....

Once you have met the 2000/1500(500) requirements, you will then need to complete a Fixed Wing Bridging Package, followed by passing 4 ATPL(A) exams (Air Law, Mass&Balance, Performance, Operational Procedures). You would be credited the RT theory exam and practical test and, if you have at least 500 hours as a pilot on multi-pilot aeroplanes, would also be credited with the Multi-crew Co-operation Course. If you are still in current flying practice when you pass your exams, you should be exempt the CPL Skill Test, but would be advised to fly a civil IR on the King Air - you would then be able to open a CPL(A) with a Single Pilot IR and Type Rating for the BE200 series and would hold ATPL(A) knowedge.

The CPL(A) / IR + MCC and ATPL(A) knowledge is colloquially referred to as the 'frozen' ATPL.

Hueymeister
23rd Feb 2010, 22:56
Not sure if this counts or not but beware that SERCO operate the 200 at a weight that enables them to run it at a cheaper rate, and the 200 is not classed, I believe, as a multi-crew a/c.

Standing by to be corrected....

Union Jack
24th Feb 2010, 09:41
Cynic

Have a look at http://www.pprune.org/biz-jets-ag-flying-ga-etc/406580-safety-pilots.html:ok:

Jack

mad_jock
24th Feb 2010, 10:44
Speaking as a Civi a CPL/IR with King Air rating would be a useful license to come out with. Alot more useful than coming out with a C130 rating.

If was you I would start getting in contact with Gamma and FRA.

Professor Plum
24th Feb 2010, 11:22
BEagle,

Just out of curiosity, if someone qualified for a frozen ATPL as per your post yesterday i,e, via the non ME scheme, but had graduated from an ME OCU, how would they unfreeze their ATPL? If they had 500 multi-pilot ME hours, would this be sufficient?

Just curious!

Thanks.

BEagle
24th Feb 2010, 12:15
You would need to have a valid multi-pilot TR included in your licence and meet the flying experience requirements for the ATPL(A).

Most people would do this in their first year of people-tube driving, but since you only really need an ATPL(A) to be in command of an airliner, there's no great rush to 'unfreeze' a CPL/IR with ATPL knowledge - no-one who hasn't already qualified for an ATPL(A) from RAF service is going to go straight from the RAF into the left hand seat of an airliner these days. Most proper airline companies also operate strict seniority rules.....and are interested in 'relevant experience commensurate with age' when hiring newbies.

Whether the 500+ hours mult-pilot time already accumulated in the RAF will count, I don't know. It may well be that these hours have to be gained on 'civil airliners' (in simple terms) included in your CPL.

Do I detect that an increasing number of people are keen to bang out of the RAF?

Remember that there is a pretty large number of desperate youngsters out there who will even pay for their own type rating just to try to get an edge these days.....and who then find themselves being treated abysmally by some bottom-feeding lo-co airline which pays peanuts.....:hmm:

Tourist
24th Feb 2010, 14:22
BEagle

"Once you have met the 2000/1500(500) requirements, you will then need to complete a Fixed Wing Bridging Package, followed by passing 4 ATPL(A) exams (Air Law, Mass&Balance, Performance, Operational Procedures). You would be credited the RT theory exam and practical test and, if you have at least 500 hours as a pilot on multi-pilot aeroplanes, would also be credited with the Multi-crew Co-operation Course. If you are still in current flying practice when you pass your exams, you should be exempt the CPL Skill Test, but would be advised to fly a civil IR on the King Air - you would then be able to open a CPL(A) with a Single Pilot IR and Type Rating for the BE200 series and would hold ATPL(A) knowedge."

I believe you are mixing up the ME and Non ME route.
A King air pilot will only require Air Law with no Bridging package etc

taxi_driver
24th Feb 2010, 14:33
It may not be relevant, but in civvy street where the King air is operated as a multi crew aircraft (certain Air ambulance & calibrator ops) the hours gained count towards the multi-crew requirements of the atpl.

However the atpl skills test needs to be done on an aircraft >5700kgs.

I would bet that the caa will give you some credit for multi crew hours.

BEagle
24th Feb 2010, 17:10
Tourist, yes, you're absolutely correct - my error! The Be200 is indeed on the list of 'recognised multi-engined aeroplanes', so the theoretical knowledge credits of LASORS D3.3A do apply to qualifying King Air captains - only a pass in Air Law is needed!

Herewith my corrected statement:

Once you have met the 2000/1500(500) requirements, you will then need to pass the ATPL(A) exam in Air Law. You would be credited the RT theory exam and practical test and, if you have at least 500 hours as a pilot on multi-pilot aeroplanes, would also be credited with the Multi-crew Co-operation Course. If you are still in current flying practice when you pass your exams, you should be exempt the CPL Skill Test, but would be advised to fly a civil IR on the King Air - you would then be able to open a CPL(A) with a Single Pilot IR and Type Rating for the BE200 series and would hold ATPL(A) knowedge credit.

Paul McCacksdown
24th Feb 2010, 17:20
Fellas, it's like wading through treacle but all the information is in LASORs 2008 here:

LASORS 2008 | Personnel Licensing | Safety Regulation (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=175&pagetype=68&gid=780)

LASORs 2010 now delayed until June this year!:ugh:

Chicken Leg
26th Feb 2010, 15:34
Taxi Driver

You are correct; the CAA will normally award the multi crew hours that you have gained from military service as long as you are able to demonstate them - in my case, send them my log book with 'highlighted' multi pilot sorties.

You would still require a TR on a stated multi pilot type though. Even if you operate the KA as multi crew, this will not suffice as the KA iS categorised as a Single PILOT type. They will award you the multi crew hours if you have them, but not the multi pilot type - so the KA alone will not unfreeze your ATPL.

Trim Stab
26th Feb 2010, 19:14
Chicken Leg is roughly correct, but to be more specific, we are talking about the differences between JAR 23 and JAR 25 aircraft (soon to be EASA 23 and EASA 25).

JAR 23 covers Normal/Utility/Aerobatic category airplanes w/ 9 or less PAX seats, MTOW < 5.670 kgs/12.500 lbs, and commuter category airplanes, propeller driven, w/ 19 or less PAX seats, MTOW < 8.618 kgs/19.000 lbs - the King Air falls into this category, also small bizjets such as CJ2.

JAR 25 covers transport category airplanes (not excluding turbo-props).

In more general terms, one might say that JAR23 are aircraft that can be flown single pilot for private operations, whereas JAR25 covers Multi Pilot Aircraft (MPA) for public transport operations. But like everything in this crazy world, there are exceptions, so for example CJ3 is JAR25, but can still be flown Single-Pilot on private operations and CJ2 is JAR 23 but has to be flown multi-crew for public transport.