EK road show [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

nolimitholdem

22nd Feb 2010, 10:57

I would LOVE to go to one of these, but not for the reasons EK would like. Specifically to act as a translator for the bare-faced lies that will be told at these dog and pony shows.

It would be comical if it wasn't so sad...on the same portal page that details the roadshows, it has the "explanation" from the can't-get-lost-soon-enough Talking Horse about the DEWA charges for villas.

Quote from EK employment contract, same wording in furnished and non-furnished options:
The Company will pay rent, tax, all relevant cooking gas, electricity and water charges.

From the portal:
A reconciliation of DEWA consumption records will be done this April after the records for the usage in the period between 1st June 2009 and 31st March 2010 are available. Where employees exceed the cap, amounts to be recovered will not exceed Dhs 1,000 per month and will continue until the excess amount is fully recovered, provided that the full recovery can be achieved within a 12 month period. Where this is not achievable the recoverable amount will be split into 12 equal instalments.

For prospective joiners, this is what you can expect. This is only one of many, many changes to the TOS that have been rammed down the throats of the pilots - you can look elsewhere on the forum for more gems. FTL abuses, rostering nightmares, ALD changes, 15-20% increase in flying with no attendant pay raise, on it goes.

Ryanair with widebodies, except in a medieval corrupt location. Only come if you can hold your breath long enough to avoid the stench for your contractual period. Three years is a long time when you're down the rabbit hole.

777boyindubai

22nd Feb 2010, 13:17

Hi McGreaser,

Perhaps the point isn't clear.

I would love Emirates to ask 10 Brit pilots to go to the UK roadshows. EK know that they couldn't find people to go and tell bare faced lies to fellow professionals after all the lies.

The utilities thing speaks volumes for thses crooks!

:ugh:

apron

22nd Feb 2010, 13:39

will many folks find themselves with excess rates to pay??? Is the allowance not in any way enough?? I am interested....as I am considering EK :O

Saltaire

22nd Feb 2010, 14:15

Short answer, yes, with an average family of 4 living in a villa; flats are exempt. Although, not entirely in EK's hands, the utility rates have now been reset by DEWA ( Dubai Electricity Water ) and even EK isn't competely sure of the rate structure. It appears to be another cash grab from DEWA with the gov't needing the extra income. Therefore, although likely small in most cases, extra payments are now probable with the increase in rates. It's another decline and unilateral change of the contract. The most prevalent and serious was the productivity change from 78 to 92 hours a couple years ago and now the extra flight hours to match. It saved the company millions but now costs them with an increase in sickness and a huge decline in morale. Most fleets are working to the bid window of 90 hours with no incentive or productivity pay ( overtime ). Better hope you can sleep at all hours of the day and night...

CAVnotOK

22nd Feb 2010, 15:01

Some people are given Villas with large gardens which are expensive to maintain, or older style Villas with poor insulation, and/or inefficient aircon units.

People in these cases might be up for twice the allowed amount provided by EK.

The thing you need to worry about most is not the Utility Cap, but the way the contract is changed and disregarded at the discretion of EK.

CAV

vbrules

22nd Feb 2010, 15:49

boycott the f@#$ers

Carbo

22nd Feb 2010, 16:46

From the figure given by DEWA, I expect to be around 150USD/ month over the EK cap (for a 4 bedroom "attached villa", very small garden, 3 adults and 3 kids).
If you have kids, be prepared to pay around 5000dhs (yes, 1300USD!)/kid/year on top of the EK allowance for the school bus.
Good luck

Spikedog

22nd Feb 2010, 18:25

Does anyone have any details of these roadshows? When and where?

Thanks

fourgolds

23rd Feb 2010, 06:39

To all prospective candidates. I understand that a job is better than no job and you might have mouths to feed etc. When applying you will hear only what you want to hear as you need the job . I understand, however all you need to know is well documented on these forums. If I fly with any new joiners in the years ahead, you will not get an ounce of sympathy when you complain about your time to command , the breach of your contract , the lifestyle in Dubai , the unfair treatment , the 900 ( 1000 hrs) a year , your rosters , accomodation , schooling etc etc etc. As the information is all here. Its a choice you are making with all the facts available to you. Good luck.

Spikedog

23rd Feb 2010, 07:51

Is life really that bad at Emirates, or just similar to most other airlines now? At my current UK airline we are trying to get BALPA recognition and then start the laborious task of improving Ts&Cs, which we have seen eroded over the last few years. Management are cutting costs left right and centre by eroding our Ts&Cs, which sounds similar to what has been happening at Emirates?

Who is the best airline to work for in the UAE? Emirates, Etihad, Qatar?

Thanks

Spike

maimax

23rd Feb 2010, 08:58

spike,

any of those outfits can be good to you for a while, or bad to you from day one.

the middle east, its roads, its judicial system, its working evironment, its everything really... is like a casino (sic).

you may win a bit... you'll always end up losing.

if you're a gambler at heart, if you enjoy putting happiness, peace, family on the line, come over, have a go...pray for luck, pray for luck every day, don't be greedy and know when to cash in your chips...make sure you don't get sucked in like many around, who couldn't leave if they wanted to.

clearly you do not trust all those colleagues who try to warn you through the different threads, so come over, have a try....any of those companies you name will suit your drift

....actually, you'll be perfect :ugh:

BigGeordie

23rd Feb 2010, 09:59

You are trying to get a union on board to improve T&C. That will never happen with any of the Gulf carriers, so the T&C are only going to go one way. It is not so much how bad it is now, it is the trend and the fact the "management" can do what they want, when they want. There is no consultation and no negotiation.

Emirates is unrecognisable now in terms and conditions to what it was 5 years ago- or even 2 year ago.

Buscat

23rd Feb 2010, 10:17

Spike, EK conditions are not that bad in comparison to SOME other airlines except that to put up with living here, they should be about double what they are. Since you live in your home country you do not have to experience the lifestyle here and it IS a lifestyle.

The company ensures working for EK is a lifestyle by exerting influence over ALL aspects of your time in this place, but they do not pay a premium for that privelege.

It's at the point where a lot of people have decided it's no longer worth the trade-off and are heading home. Also, in all likelihood and although you might think your management are bad, you simply most likely haven't experienced anything like the lying, back-stabbing, cheating, sleazy management we enjoy here.

Spikedog

23rd Feb 2010, 10:22

Thanks Buscat. What do EK do to exert influences over all aspects of your life?

It is always very difficult to judge what you read on PPRUNE, so I am trying to get as much information as possible while I consider a move.

Spikedog

23rd Feb 2010, 11:04

maimax - I am listening to "colleagues" who try and warn through different threads. The problem is, if I listen to everything written on here then there aren't any airlines in the world that I would want to work for. That includes the UK company I am at now, but things here are not as bad as have been written about on PPRUNE.

I am not willing to gamble my happiness, family life, etc, but I would love to fly the B777 for a few years and earn a decent living from doing so - is this not possible to do at Emirates anymore?

maimax - In an ideal world where would you be working if it wasn't Emirates?

maimax

23rd Feb 2010, 11:12

home spike....i would be home

think well my man, and good luck

GMDS

23rd Feb 2010, 11:49

Spikedog

It is futile to compare airlines in the ME and others in the civilised world on T&Cs. Certainly some outfits there have conditions that are closer to compulsory work than a contract respecting human rights. The huge underlying difference though is, that in civilisation at least you have some legal and human rights. You cannot be thrown in jail because your maid screwed up, the company watching that soap opera and doing squat to help. You cannot be sacked simply because you screwed up an approach and did a go around that was observed by a poor egomaniac manager. You can at least take a broken contract to a judge who deserves such a name, with a fair chance of getting justice.

In the sandpit all this is a lost cause. It's all nice and cool as long as you don't encounter the arbitrary mentality of these sods around here. If this happens, you're alone and lost. The law abides the corrupt leaders and the almighty lord of greed.

Good luck with your choice.

sexdriven

23rd Feb 2010, 12:21

Spikedog

I think that many guys on this forum are just venting their frustration. The thing to remember is that you have no rights as an expat in this country so there is no recourse and hence this forum is the only place to vent.

Ek might be okay for some people, depending on their circumstances off course. Do your own research into EK to determine whether it is okay for you or not. No one should make a career decision based on what is written on pprune. My advise is for you to come to Dubai with your family and look at it with an OPEN MIND.Don't believe everything that EK tells you at the presentations either. They sugar coat everything.

Few things to remember though:

T & C have eroded over the years. They have been gradually eroding ever since I joined a few years ago. (that was when the company was making record profits). The reductions have just spiraled in the last two years.The company has used the recession as an excuse although they have still been profitable. Many guys understand that the past year has been tough for EK and many guys would have been happy if the company had just said that they needed more productivity for a year or so. Instead the company changed the productivity rules unilaterally.

We have seen our productivity threshold change from 78hrs to 92hrs a month.Added to this is the fact that we were given no increase.To make things even worse we were told that our utility bill will only be covered up to a limit even though our contract states that the compay pays for all utilities.

Most salary increases have been below real inflation. The company uses the official inflation rate which most guys here will tell you is way below the real rate.Education support allowance has not been raised for the past two years even though school fees have been increasing 12% on average.

If you come here with two school going kids on a f/o salary than you are not going to save much. Also, with the new rostering rules, you are not going to spend much time at home with your family. Even the time that you do spend at home ,you are going to use that time to recover. We have fatigue issues but the company will not acknowledge this because most guys are too scared to file fatigue related reports even though they are fatigued and know it.

92 hrs a month might not sound like a lot to some of the low cost carrier pilots but remember tht here most of the flying is done middle of the night also through multiple time zones.

Job security and early command used to be another attraction in the past.Both these have been laid to rest in the past year. The hours required to upgrade were changed unilaterally in last year.Also many guys have been fired for minor incidents.

Ek might still be the place for you depending on you circumstances. However, please do your research.

Spikedog

23rd Feb 2010, 13:00

sexdriven - very useful and thank you for the advice. It sounds very much like what is going on in the UK and in particular with my airline, which is also eroding Ts&Cs whilst making a profit - blaming it all on the recession.

I will take all posts on here with a pinch of salt, do a lot of research and visit Dubai before making any firm decisions.

With the new rostering rules, how many days are you away from Dubai on stopovers per month?

Spike

alwayzinit

23rd Feb 2010, 13:15

Some of the rostering here in EK is frankly shocking.

The West Coast flights are at the moment a 12 hrs time difference followed by 2 days on the ground (used to be 4) then off East.

A few cycles of that and your body is completely shot, your family will be totally fed up with Dad being knackered all the time and there is no respite until you get ill or call in fatigued.

The DEWA cap is a monstrous pineapple insertion but won't kill anyone....the rostering, well I hope not.

We as a family are seriously looking for other options as I have every intention of living after I retire and not expiring on my 60th birthday.

And I am a "Glass half full guy".

IXNAT

23rd Feb 2010, 14:03

Spikey,
Do not take what guys say here with a pinch of salt. It is their perspective, thus their reality. Much is dependent of one's situation here. But to leave a viable company, that MIGHT have a union is not in anyway a wise move, IMHO.

If you have a family, you can forget having anything resembling a normal family life. You will see monthly rosters of only 10 days of....a few here and there. You will not have any true ability to bid for your kids birthday, anniversary, leave in the summer off. Well actually, you will bid for those, but with rosters at up to 95 hours per month....good luck. And as what has been said, those days off will be spent sleeping during the day, used to get one's physical, doing numerous online training courses, getting visas or renewing them, getting a UAE ID card (good luck) and numerous other adminstrative activities that will take away from watching junior's football match or piano recital. Your wife will get fed up with having to deal with all of the other "garbage" around Dubai, the traffic, getting things done in 50 degree heat part of the year, and dealing with, well you name it, with little or no help from you (you can't, you're never home). You see, you will be on the other side of the world, 12 time zones away and trying to sleep. Or you might do 10 hours on a flight with only two pilots, get in at 5am in the morning, sleep half the day away and try to recover the next. Then off again....And if you call in sick, they will try to recover those sick days during days off during the month OR next month. "Mummy, why is daddy always away or in a bad mood?" Ask around and see how many of us got all 42 days of leave awarded for next year. Or if they did, how many "four" day leave awards were there?

No family? Then what the heck, come and "man up" and try and have fun. With family, you will be getting pressure you can only imagine.
And commuting...forget about it. No way unless you live next door. So don't take what is said here with a "pinch". Nothing said here, so far, is away from what guys/gals are experiencing.

And we won't even get into the training aspect of this place. Anyone want to take that one on? And this is from someone who was damn happy the first few years here.

Watchdog

23rd Feb 2010, 14:49

Sexdriven,
Never a truer word spoken!

Ixnat,
Actually, the training is pretty good, unless you are a slack-ass.

ekpilot

23rd Feb 2010, 16:09

Spikey come over and then you can tell the others how it is :ok:

IXNAT

23rd Feb 2010, 19:51

Yeah, watchdog. Talk to the numberS of f/os that have "failed" their upgrades by "fired" TRE's. Failed upgrades not due to some definitive objective failure but something subjective that parameters can't be measured. Or upgrades halted in mid training and never given a reason. Or all the changes made to the training footprint because we had such stellar trainers and curriculum. And of course they were all "slack asses". It's TRAINING not CHECKING. 'Nother story though.....thread creep. Fourth airline over a long career and the worst training by far, by any measure. "Where's that written?" "Mate, you just gotta know".

fourgolds

24th Feb 2010, 06:30

SpikeDog

Around the world all airlines are trimming our packages, Thats a fact. But here is something you need to consider.

In the Sandpit your entire life ( and your families) is dependant on your job. Your kids being in school , your wifes job ( if she has one) , your villa etc etc.
If you have a bad day a work. Or if some local lies that your wife flipped him the finger (His word against hers) on Shk Zayed Road. Your little world could be in the balance.
Have a bad day at work or an "issue" outside of Work and you could loose everything. Ie you are outta here.

Now by comparison , you have your home in the UK , your kids in school , your wifey has a job ( her family and friends are around etc). Now you have a bad day at work. All you need to do is look for another job. The rest of your life remains intact. I have seen many fall over the years here.
its a long fall back to the first world. If you think you can keep your current status quo at home ( UK) and establish some sort of commute. You are very wrong. With our current rostering practices you will find yourself filing for Divorce or facing disciplinary action for missing a flight faster than you can say " WTF".

dont get me wrong if you have to work you have to work. But to leave an Airline back in " Familiar" to come here requires carefull thought and believe me the info you want is here in these Forums.

Fellowship of the drink

24th Feb 2010, 11:27

I agree with what has been said about EK.

Due dilligence is required before joining and the facts detailed in the posts above are not fabrication by the pilots. The crewing shortage in EK in one of the worst recessions in modern history is testament to the reality here in EK.

twieke

24th Feb 2010, 15:13

Just to get back to the roadshows, did anybody go to one of them?

Regards,

T

Trader

24th Feb 2010, 15:37

Spikey--the problem is that it is more difficult than you think to 'fly for a few years'. Once you give up a seniority number to come here you start at the bottom and, at the moment, command is probably 7 years.

If you decide that the situation is one you want for you and family you are making a huge commitment. It is costly to move and set up house. Going back is costly as well.

The biggest variable for me would be my ability to go home and find suitable work. If your plan is not for the rest of your career you best have a plan on how to back home. I am guessing that if you spend 5 years here your not going back at the top of a seniority list. Will there be airlines hiring at the time? If you have no left seat time where will you slot in? If you are in the left seat is there a DEC position available?

Basically what I'm saying is that the most difficult variable in the decision making process is how to get back. Once you are out it is very difficult to get back- at least without a major paycut or change in lifestyle. The airline biz is fickle and may not correspond with your desire to head home.

fjordviking

24th Feb 2010, 16:58

Very good post. It`s one of the biggest unknown when taking the plunge into any expat job. I was lucky when I left 3 years ago, but I have friends in EK just waiting for an opportunity to return home, not knowing when opportunity
will come knocking.

Fjordviking

fourgolds

24th Feb 2010, 19:00

Twieke .You will see only what you want to see , you will hear only what you want to hear and carry on regardless.Nice big new 777 or 330 for you
I wish you luck with your endeavours but I can assure you not an ounce of sympathy when at some point you stand on a mine in the minefield that Emirates has become. All you need to know is right here on these forums. You have been acurately advised and you choose , so please be man about proceeding and be true to yourself in the years ahead when you discover the truth , the hard way.

fjordviking

24th Feb 2010, 21:05

If you bothered to read the whole thread it`s obvious that twieke works for EK.See post #5.
I guess it`s the fatigue and you had a slip, time to mitigate.

Fjordviking

CAVnotOK

25th Feb 2010, 04:50

Apparently there is no mention of a Utility Allowance on the EK Careers Website anymore????

Has the UA been scrapped for New Joiners??

I might have bad info, but this would make a massive change to your overall package if you will not even receive assistance up to the capped amount.

Be very careful, they breed sly dogs here in Dubai.

CAV.

fourgolds

25th Feb 2010, 06:17

Right you are. Apologies Twieke. Fatigue indeed .Gosh I hope I can comprehend the LIDO plates when I go to work next :eek: .

777boyindubai

25th Feb 2010, 09:59

Ask the liar the EK have put in the road show the following questions:

1.) 99% of what is written in PPrune about EK are lies..... so what is the 1% that is true? :ok:

2.) Why the roadshow for pilots in the midst of this recession if there are people queing up to join EK?

3.) How many pilots left EK in the last 12 months?

4.) Is it true EK have lost 500 members of staff (across all grades) who resigned since January2010?

5.) Is it true that over 3000 staff (in Dubai) resigned last year?

6.) Is it true that you haven't paid utilities for the staff for 3 months? :=

7.) Is there a culture of bullying and intimidation?

People here have seen the deterioation of their T's and C's here over the last two years. It has been done in a sly and deceitful way. That is the main crux of it. Coupled with the huge greed. It will get worse. If you have a job, stick with it. Only if you are very desperate consider EK.

Spikedog

25th Feb 2010, 10:01

Guys/Girls

Thank you all for your interesting posts about Emirates. I will think long and hard before making such a move. IXNAT, fourgolds, Trader, LR3 and others - very helpful posts and food for thought.

I'm still short of hours for Emirates and they don't seem to want to drop below the 4,000 hours requirement, even though they are very short of crews. I suppose it means I won't have to make a tough choice for a while yet! Perhaps a blessing in disguise!

From what I have heard it seems like Etihad might be a better option at the present time. Better rostering, management, etc? Any thoughts?

Spike

Blue-Footed Boobie

25th Feb 2010, 11:03

3000 resigned in one year?

500 across all grades since Jan 2010?

this include pilots or other just staff who did a runner before they got thrown in the nick?

777boyindubai

25th Feb 2010, 12:25

3000 across all grades last year. Around 500 in the first two months of this year. They 3500 in total are not just pilots. Only includes those that resigned officially. Only Dubai based staff. Speaks volumes for our beloved management. Also, a number of my Emirati friends. (Decent people) They are really shocked. :ugh:

Please ask our friend in the roadshow if this is the 1% of truth that PPruners write about EK? :{

donpizmeov

25th Feb 2010, 13:22

Interesting that the over 15 pilots (they wouldn't tell me the exact number, just that it was more than 15) that did runners last year are not included in the resignation number.

Now what do they say about statistics?

the Don

atpcliff

25th Feb 2010, 16:08

Hi!

I have been following EK very closely for about 4 years. I know 2 guys that went there (helped one of them). I applied about 2 years ago, and have been updating my app every since.

I just pulled my app this month.

cliff
NBO

Sky Daddy

25th Feb 2010, 18:56

Ok did I hear it wrong from one of your fox about average monthly days off are, minimum of 10 days.Now that would be counted as a Luxary in my airline.So is the bidding system which I will not be seeing in this life time.
I do not work in states but it is interesting to read some of the north american threads, its shocking to read about some pilots working as a salesman in wal mart or cutting chops in a local butchery or ending up in painting section of a home depot.
Am I suggesting to be thankful and shut up!! of course not. I am just sharing the facts in different part of worlds.

Cheers

TangoUniform

26th Feb 2010, 06:40

Sky Diddy, Don't think you will see too many B777 captains or copilots working in WalMart in the states. Don't think you will see many A330/340 captains in the states with only 8 days off a month. Don't think you will see many two man aircraft operations flying over 10 hours with no relief or augmentation.

atpcliff

26th Feb 2010, 08:37

Hi!

There are very few B777s flying in the US. There are no A-340s, and only a handful of A-330s at NWA/Delta. With that large of an aircraft, I doubt that any of the US pilots on either of those airframes are furloughed.

The "normal" 121 airlines are limited to 8 hours of flying with two pilots. However, my 121 airline allowed up to 10 hours for two pilots, and then there's the "Ferry" leg. After you fly your "commercial" legs, you can legally ferry the airplane with no freight or pax, unlimited duty hours/flight hours/unlimited distances.

I have flown 12 hours with a 121 two-man crew, and my friend had a VERY long day with LOTS of flying, and at the end the company had them ferry the plane from Yellowknife to El Paso, TX, which is a VERY long way. Ferries from Europe to the US are not unheard of after you are out of duty time.

My longest duty day, two man crew, 121, was about 25 hours. NOT very nice.

The above is one of the reasons that Congress is forcing the FAA to change the Flight/Duty/Rest requirements as we speak. It will be similar to the UK rules. Some of our Flight/Duty/Rest rules are LITERALLY from the 1920s/1930s!!!

cliff
NBO

BigGeordie

26th Feb 2010, 21:09

Some of our terms and conditions are from the Middle Ages.

IXNAT

27th Feb 2010, 10:33

What are you smokin' atpcliffy. You lost your credibility with the statement of very few 777s and others in the US. Let's see:

AA 47 777s, CAL 20 777s, UAL 52 777s and 26 747s, DAL 16 777s and 16 747s and 32 330s, USA 16 330s, FedEx 4 777f and 121 MD11/10s.

That list didn't even cover the 767/757 airframe. DAL alone has over 300 767/757s.

25 hrs. on a 2 man crew on 121 ops......Hmmmm. Whanna 'splain? And if you did do that, of course it must have been irregular ops. But are you scheduled daily for over 10 a day with two man crew? If you are I am sure the local FSDO would love to hear about it (ala JB). But if you are doing ferry flights like you said-different story. But here in the desert as has been said ad nausium, every day occurrance with pax and back side of the clock flying. Normal ops.

maimax

27th Feb 2010, 17:41

skydad,

a bus-driver, i average 8 days off with ek over the last 4 months, only 3 days off planned next month, because i have a week leave.....

i have had 1 (one) weekend off since early january.

i am constantly to watch my rostered duties so as to not being driven into flying illegally for insufficient days off (happened once last year when i oversaw it)

my days off is exactly the legal minimum (whatever "legal" means here). the duty days include mostly night turns , a handfull of them each month very close to or just over the legal max duty (it's called "variations")...

it is impossible (!!!!) for anyone with a family to recover from the incessant alternating day and night duties and, have a semblance of a family life.

anyone thinking i'm exagerating contacts me please

shame our company has gone this way, shame on all those who have let or made this happen