Northern Territory Aeromed Contract

[Skidmark]

Well it's been some time since I last got involved with this forum but I reckon this thread is gonna kick off some very heated debate.....so lets begin.

CAREFLIGHT HAS INTERIM CONTRACT FOR NT AEROMED.

So this creates some questions:

1. What fixed wing (multi-engine turboprop) do they operate and can they offer by 1 July 10?

2. How many crews can they gather (including medical staff) by the same date?

3. What infrastructure do they have in Darwin?

4. ???? keep going 5. 6. 7.....

I'm not picking on Careflight itself, though it appears to be an enormous effort to accomplish bearing in mind the already incumbent contractor and it's infrastructure and equipment and the expertise of the RFDS. What's the story? Me thinks the NT government has made a booboo!!!

[megle2]

I heard contract indeed cancelled as of about June.

[Kenneth]

I think the pearl contract expires in june.

Having said that...

What skid said!

Aren't the aircraft requirements quite strict as well, (age and TTIS)?

Does the PC12 get a look in or is it Multi engine only?

[betaman]

CAREFLIGHT HAS INTERIM CONTRACT FOR NT AEROMED.

Funny no mention of the above on the NT Govt or Careflight websites.:confused:


Does the PC12 get a look in or is it Multi engine only?


Kenneth as Bluesky alluded to NT govt of the day was offered new Kingairs & also new PC12's which were rejected in part to the requirement to do the odd Dili medivac (400nm over water:uhoh:). However the NT Police airwing now operate two, so may get a look in.

[Stationair8]

Sad day for the Pearl guys and another race to the bottom for pilots wages and conditions.

[Howard Hughes]

Are you sure about that S8? Didn't think Careflight guys were that poorly remunerated...;)

Or are they going to use contract aircraft?

[Stationair8]

Figure of $60k for Pelair/Careflight B200 pilots at Essendon, can't see the NT operation paying much better? Maybe wrong, but Skywest and Pearl always paid pretty well on that contract.

Also Darwin isn't the cheapest place to live with high power prices and a reasonable unit in the $450 a week mark.

The race to the bottom continues.

[Capt Claret]

In my day as an NTAMS pilot, with Skywest Avn before Pearl purchased Skywest, pilots were paid a loading for rmote living, and the medical staff were supplied by the health department, not Skywest.

[Jamair]

Pearl NTAMS in 2008:

Applicants must meet the following minimum requirements:
• 2500 total aeronautical experience
• 2000 command hours
• 500 multi engine command hours
• 300 turbine command hours
• Australian Airline Transport Pilot Licence
• 3 renewal Instrument Ratings
Candidates with B200 endorsement would be advantageous

base annual salary $65,000 gross
Pilot Availability & Contactibility Allowance of $2345.46 per annum
Jeppesen Document Allowance of $269.62 per annum.
Area Allowance of $7,680.40 per annum
NTAMS Allowance of $10,000 per annum

This was pre-the current EBA.

Which branch of Careflight are we talking about -there is more than one. I was not aware Careflight had an AoC for B200?

[Howard Hughes]

Figure of $60k for Pelair/Careflight B200 pilots at Essendon
Pelair is not Careflight! Pelair is one of many contractors used by Careflight! Do Pelair even have any B200 pilots at Essendon?

It is my understanding that Careflight do not have a fixed wing AOC in their own right, so who actually has the NTAMS contract?

[Under Dog]

Howard
Careflight QLD section operate a fixed wing AOC out of the Gold Coast,for Air ambulance jet ops.

The Dog:ok:

[Counter-rotation]

Yeah, AOCs are what I've been curious about lately. Can anyone confirm who (besides Pearl) has King Air on their AOC? This is assuming of course, that King Air aircraft are ultimately used for this work...

Maybe need to ask who (besides RFDS) has PC12 on an AOC.

Are the Police PC12s technically on private operations? And if not, what AOC do they fly under?

[Jamair]

Polair was a PVT / AWK OP when I was in it.......

Careflight Qld has a CHTR/AWK AoC for Lear 35 / 45, domestic & International, but not B200 or PC12.

Careflight Medical Services also charters aircraft from other operators like Pelair to conduct its retrievals.

I don't know that any of the Careflight operations in Oz has the necessary experience for a primary Aeromed service like NTAMS.... but I've been wrong before.

[Anonymousbluesky]

There is allot of truth in what blueskymine has said :D
The biggest problem I see (from the outside looking in) is NTAMS want a 5 star service, but can't afford to pay for it.The most likely out come is that the winner of this will be Pel air or Care flight as the tender requires the new operator to supply fixed wing/rotary wing as well as nurses(from what I've heard) and there are few operators around with the capacity to fund or supply what NTAMS are asking for. The following link shows small details of the tender and has a long list of tenderers.

Tenders Online - Northern Territory Government (http://notes.nt.gov.au/Tender.nsf/Main?OpenForm&Current)
the winner of the tender is expected to be announced in June/July and are expected to pick up the work by January 2011. it is possible that the pearl aviation contract will be extended but at the moment allot seems to be a mystery :confused:

Althought none of this seems to be the fault of pearl aviation the labor government seems to be quick to blame them for NTAMS problems, the NT Health minister Kon Vatskalis has been heard in many interviews claiming that pearl aviation will not be Keeping the contract....... but how many times have labor ever told the truth? :}

[Reverseflowkeroburna]

Which branch of Careflight are we talking about

Careflight NSW as I understand it.

[newcomer]

How will these effect Pearls B200 flight crew, will they be offered jobs with new operator or is there enough jobs in Pearls charter fleet (King air and Metro) or is it a totally different branch of the company

[Howard Hughes]

Tender No: D09-0571
Agency: Department of Health and Families
Directorate: Acute Care Services
Title: Darwin, Katherine and Gove - Provision of Aero Medical Services in the Top End of the NT for a Period of 60 Months - Inspection on 28/01/2010 at 09:30


Tenders Close: 31-Mar-2010 02:00 PM CST (Australian Central Standard Time)

From Anonymousbluesky's link, tenders close 31st March 2010! So what are we discussing? Have Careflight been awarded the services in the interim, without a tender process?:eek:

[Reverseflowkeroburna]

Hey HH, How are things at Hughes Pt?

It is an interim contract (6 months) that has been awarded to Careflight NSW due it being nigh impossible that anyone bar Pearl could be ready to start on the 1st July when the current Ntams deal ends.

Sooo........Careflight should be running the show from 1st July to 31st December. Who is going to be doing the fixed-wing? I'll throw that ball back into court.

[Anonymousbluesky]

just to be clear, pearl will be operating there fleet of B200 till (at least)January 2011. then new operator will be annoced in July 2010 if there is a suitable candidate for Ntams high expectations! it is the bidding process that closes 31 of march. although as in the past it has been extended to be retended.............

[Skidmark]

Found this list of tenderers from the NT Gov. website. Certainly raised my eyebrows........ :eek:




Australian Helicopters
Careflight(Nsw) Limited
None
John Armstrong Family Trust
Chartair
Jedi Inc
Air Frontier
Pearl Aviation
Royal Flying Doctor Service of Australia Central Operations Incorporated
Inchyra Holdings Pty Ltd
Cook Medical
Pilatus Australia Pty Ltd
Jayrow Helicopters
savannah aviation
Pel-Air Aviation Pty Ltd
Ausmedivac
Aspen Medical
RFDS Western Operations
Rfdsno
gomez aviation
Gama Aviation Ltd
GSAS
Cobham Aviation Services Australia
St John Ambulance Aust (Nt) Inc
Airborne Solutions
Heliwest
Helicopters Abroad
Skytrans
Medic Oncall
Aviat Consulting Pty Limited
AMSA
ragwing aviation
pacific helicopters
Hawker Pacific
31C0
Avion Pacific
Corporate Aircraft Charter
Slingair
Royal Flying Doctor Service Of Australia (South Eastern Section)
Vincent Aviation
Andrew Mcwatters
Health Services Australia
Dept of Justice
Chc Helicopters (Australia)
Becton Dickinson Pty Ltd
The Helicopter Service Australia
MedSat Technologies Pty Ltd
MedSat
Grabbe Covey Helicopters Pty Ltd
cqsatnet
Cobham Aviation Services Australia
International Sos
Mobile Aircraft Maint
AEA Aerospace
Av8 Aviation
Aeronautical Engineers Australia
Total Aerospace Solutions Pty Ltd
Execujet Aviation Group
Hawker Pacific
PDL Toll
C&E Aviation
KJM Air Charter Services
Bain
Hnz (Australia)
Hostile Environment Services
Precision Helicopters Pty Ltd
Rfds
Darwin International Airport PL
Hawker Beechcraft Corporation
Careflight Queensland
Tag Medical
Sovereign Health Care Australia
Aspen Medical
St John Ambulance Australia ( NT) Inc
Adagold Aviation Pty Ltd
Alyawarr
Immediate Assistatns
Immediate Assistants Pty Ltd
United Aero Helicopters
NT Airports
John Wade
Odav8
Pel-Air Aviation Pty Ltd
Larrakia Development Corportation
Avpharm Pty Ltd
KPMG
Air Frontier
Katherine Aviation
Webinsure
Corporate Aircraft Charter
Moonbeam Design
Army

[havick]

that's quite a typical long list, however I think you'll find that only a handful are really in any serious contention..

[Dog One]

Bit of duplication in the list. It may be a list of applicants who have asked for tender documents.

Couldn't imagine NT Airports running a aero medical service!

[PLovett]

...........and there is a few in there that you wouldn't want running an aeromedical service. :eek:

[Dances With Dingoes]

Stationair8

and another race to the bottom Now that is just about enough of that thank you.

You will get this thread shut down as well :E

DD

[jaymz]

Thank you for letting me comment. I am NOT a pilot.

I am a user of medical air service from a remote locality in NT, and previously in remote Queensland. Given my age and chronic health problems, it is possible that I will again need this service.

Reading through all of these posts, I'm wondering if the government is dealing with this in a patient-friendly manner. ?? Should we start to panic, with the apparently dollar-driven tendering 'system', that seems not to take into account the reason for the service -- us, the patients at the end of a very long string.

I will keep watching how you professionals see it, hoping to gain some calm out of it all.

regardz ..

[PLovett]

jaymz,

You must forgive professional (and many non-professional) pilots on here who often let their cynicism run away with them.

There are only a few operators who are capable of meeting the tender requirements with any chance of actually being able to provide the service. The boys and girls who fly for those operators are capable and professional in their operations. They have to be because the nature of aeromedical flying in the NT can be very demanding.

The NT government on the other hand is a worry. They (both major parties) have shown a distressing tendency to play politics with the service. However, the professionalism of the operators overrides the tendency of the government to drive the service downwards.

In short, if the government can get its act together and award a contract to an operator capable of providing the service, you will get a professional service from the pilot and medical crew on the aircraft.

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

A lot of interest for a four plane contract.

Thought Airnorth and Hardy aviation would have expressed an interest in tendering for the contract?

[The Voice]

Airnorth and Hardy aviation would have expressed an interest quite possibly a bit too far removed from their core business.

[Dances With Dingoes]

just to be clear, pearl will be operating there fleet of B200 till (at least)January 2011

Where you getting your info? It is contrary to what I have heard, but you may be closer to the source than I am.

[Counter-rotation]

PLovett take a bow.
Well said mate, but while I agree with the sentiment of your post, I also think it is true that (ah, be diplomatic now CR...) - if the current contractor promised certain "things" with a price attached, and then could not provide said "things", then they are not entirely blameless...

I honestly believe that the provision of a good service to the people of the NT hinges on the NT Government coming to terms with what such a service actually costs. Others have already said that, but I'm saying it again.

the NT Health minister Kon Vatskalis has been heard in many interviews claiming that pearl aviation will not be Keeping the contract.... That's interesting, and a surprising statement to make, considering it went out for retender EARLY because supposedly the changes required to the existing contract arrangement were so great, that proper process required a whole new tender process... Something aint right about that.

And I have to agree with DD, the statement by Anonomousbluesky is very different to everything I've heard so far. But I guess we'll see...

CR.

[FGD135]

This "interim contract" is intriguing. It appears that it has definitely been awarded to Careflight. How did they manage to "win" this contract?

It appears that there were none of the usual contract formalities (e.g call for tenders, specifications, closing date). Did anybody else bid for it? How was it decided that Careflight should be the winner?

Why have an interim contract anyway? That just seems like unnecessary complication and expense - given that the final contract may go to a different bidder entirely.

And what about the six month timeframe that the winning bidder has to acquire and fit out a fleet of aircraft - and employ pilots, nurses and doctors?

Six months!

[The Voice]

FGD - if you're thinking that 6 months lead in time for the new contractor is a bit short, what about the now only 130 days before Careflight picks up the reins?

[Stationair8]

A number of airline companies have succesfully run aeromedical contracts in Australia and have used it as a training ground for there pilots.

1. East-West operated the NSW Air Ambulance contract,

2. Skywest Aviation operated both the NSW Air Ambulance and Northern Territory Aero Medical Contract,

3. Sunstate(Mildura) operated the Victorian Air Ambulance contract,

4. Airnorth operated the NTAMS contract for a couple of years in the mid 1980's,

5. TAA provided pilots for the NTAMS contract up until the early 1980's,

6. Ansett NT Airwork did likewise during the 1980's,

7. TAA also had the flying surgeon run in western QLD for many years.

So one could assume Airnorth would be putting in a competitive tender. A couple of years in a turboprop on the contract then into the rhs seat of the ERJ-170?

[maxgrad]

Stationair8
Not saying that won't happen although I would be interested in what initial experience A/North would want and depending on that is it easier just going straight to a major with the required experience?

[Captain Nomad]

S8, you are presuming that those who do the aeromed will also want to fly airline. I know people who would avoid flying for that kind of outfit as they have chosen aeromed over airline by choice. Of course there are also others who have done the reverse. Each to their own! :ok:

[maxgrad]

CN,

Too true!
Lifestyle choices

[ernie blackhander]

word on the street is that the pearl guys have been given (unconfirmed or definate) notice. aus jet doing the intrim with care flight, the old aus jet hangar has just been made vacant, hmm. please stay is what i have heard, but why you may be out of a job soon with no loyalty bonus/pay from said company.

[PLovett]

ernie,

It has been some time since I was in Darwin so please excuse my ignorance. By "aus jet", do you mean the company that used to operate out of Darwin from the "haunted hangar" and who ceased in Darwin in 2008? :confused:

If it is that company, are they bringing in staff to undertake the contract because if so, all the corporate knowledge that the Pearl boys and girls have is just about to go walking out the door. Sheesh, that would be another example of the wheel having to be re-invented. :ugh:

One would hope that if the Pearl aviators are to be laid off then "aus jet" or whomever takes on the contract would seek to employ them. They have built up a wealth of knowledge on flying in the NT under difficult and extremely challenging conditions. :ok:

[Howard Hughes]

I would be very surprised if all the Pearl pilots were not offered positions with whoever takes over the contract. I'm sure the detrmining factor (of how many choose to stay on) will be what salary is on offer with the new incumbent!:ooh:

[ernie blackhander]

i asked the same question, apparently there was an aus jet nt and they went bust and there is aus jet australia (so to speak) and it is this company that have been awarded the intrim tender. and i should probably point out that they are only doing it until the sucessful tenderer is chosen and set up in the nt

[Dances With Dingoes]

Lucky they just happen to have a fleet of 4 suitable aircraft with cargo doors and SLD's. :confused:

It is good to know the NT Gov had a choice of operators with such fleets on standby, allowing the smooth transition of service that we are, no doubt, about to see :ugh:

Good luck to all the lads involved in the current contract, as has been said, any new operator is going to need engineers and pilots as well. :ok:

DD

[Stationair8]

The plot thickens.

Nah DD everyone has B200's in stock with cargo door and stretchers etc, ready to go at the drop a hat.

Looks like pooh, tastes like pooh then it is most likely pooh.

[bushy]

There were some southern flying school operators that set up charter companies ip north so they could sell ICUS to the newbies who came through their flying schools. I hope we are not going to have one of them providing airmedical services in the N.T.
We need Knowledgeable, experienced crews.
It's important.
Let's not have something like the ceiling insulation project.

[Stationair8]

Lets see ICUS in a clapped out old PA-31 goes for $120.00 per hour, Icus in a Turbine Twin with the bonus of night time could go for at least $200.00 per hour.

I was thinking the same thing Bushy, you can see the ad in the paper for new CPL's to gain valuable experience to get the hours for that jet job gig!!!

[Stationair8]

At no time will the pilots be expected to lay ceiling insulation, while on standby.

[Capt Claret]

But do they no how to tell the time, while on standby? ;)

[Stationair8]

Good thing you spotted that CC, only noticed it myself after grabbing another stubby from the fridge.

[Moniker]

Can anyone explain the connection (if there is one) between Careflight QLD, Careflight NRMA, Aus Jet, Pelair and Aspen?

[Vref+5]

Just a thought,the owners of the current contracted company wouldn't be financing the Careflight tender, in an attempt to break through the unions would it? Might be worth thinking about at before all the Pearl pilots jump ship.

Nothing surprises me any more, not in this industry.

[Falling Leaf]

Can anyone explain the connection (if there is one) between Careflight QLD, Careflight NRMA, Aus Jet, Pelair and Aspen?

Careflight NRMA (NSW) do not have their own AOC, so have a contract with Pel-Air to provide Westwind aircraft for aeromed flights. I believe these are mainly international (travel insurance jobs) retrievals.

Not sure of any relationships between the other companies.:)

[Stationair8]

The Kingairs that are on the contract now, they are owned by Pearl?

[sumtingwong]

Station Air,

Yes, they are owned by Pearl.

[Stationair8]

Thanks for that.

[GAFA]

Looks like Pearl lost the contract due to their pilots putting safety first.

The Northern Territory Government announced today that Careflight had been
awarded a six month aero medical contract, commencing mid-year and running
through to the end of 2010. Careflight are currently providing helicopter
aeromed capacity and have been operating BK117 VH-BIF from Darwin Airport.

Beyond 2010 a longer term contract will be awarded after a further market
tender evaluation.

Pearl Aviation will be 'paid out' of their contract which was not due to
cease for some time.

The NTG's decision was based on the inability of Pearl to operate their
Kingairs into Katherine because of consistent issues with kangaroos on the
runway at Tindal. Pearl pilots had black-banned the operation because of
several roo strikes.Pearl had been operating:

Kingair 200 VH-NTE
Kingair 200C VH-NTG
Kingair 200C VH-NTH
Kingair 200C VH-NTS

It is not clear what fixed wing aircraft Careflight will operate on the
contract or which facility they will use.

[maxgrad]

Media speel is great isn't it.

Pilots black ban Tindal strip...... Just decided to black ban a strip because of roos.......OH and as an after thought the safety of the operation was getting a bit tardy! :ugh::mad:

[Jabawocky]

Careflight takes over our medical flights
March 2nd, 2010

CAREFLIGHT will take over all aero-medical services in the Northern Territory for the second half of this year.
Health Minister Kon Vatskalis last night said Careflight - which presently operates some night services - had been awarded an interim contract to take over all services from July until December.
Careflight will take over the services from Pearl Aviation while the NT Government puts the service out to tender.
The tender, which is to run the aero medical service for the next 10 years, with the option of a five-year extension, closes at the end of March.
Mr Vatskalis said in September last year the Government would break its contract with Pearl Aviation and put out a new tender.
He made the comments after Pearl Aviation had refused to operate night services at Tindal Air Base near Katherine because of a wallaby problem and because of complaints about delays.
"I'm not satisfied that people have to wait 15, 16 hours for a medivac," he said.
"I'm not prepared to accept it any more."
So he is not prepared to accept the delays any more..........BUT is he prepared to foot the bill for every roo strike and flow on costs from having that attitude?

Why don't the media get onto that idea? :ugh:

[maxgrad]

The Minister for Health and Bullshut has little idea of reality regarding this.
Pearl, although far from being spotless has been made the scape goat to cover the Minister's ar$e.

Many have commented on the wobally situ over the years, unfortunately only a limited number understand/believe the truth. Many animal strikes were encountered, almost every night a strike or near miss. An A/c was badly damaged leading to an emergency landing.
pilots imposed a no fly at night to TN due safety concerns.
RAAF(read Fed Govt) stuffed around with group hug ideals and haven't fixed the problem. CASA and insurance assessors require risk assessment final conduct(by RAAF) to continue flights at night.

Delays are by NT Health decisions on previous contract and tasking procedure.

Again I say, Pearl is not faultless but there are factors involved that cross a wide spectrum

[tinpis]

Charismatic Kon. :hmm:

You will have as much success trying to make sense out of him, as will a celluloid cat have of catching an asbestos mouse running through hell.

[bushy]

I wonder if we will have a whole new contract drawn, a whole new medical team and a new operator using single engined aircraft.

[maxgrad]

Lets face it....

Pearl
RFDS Central
Careflight.....using an operator of their choice.

Initial bid must be Kingair, that does NOT disclude Single engine and the approval of same.

(is disclude a word???)

[Pseudonymn]

Maybe 'preclude' is the word you're searching for there arco... :8

[PLovett]

Mmmm...........this has all the makings of another NT government debacle. :ugh:

I hope I am wrong because the people of the NT deserve better than to have essential services being used as a political plaything.:=

[tinpis]

I hope I am wrong because the people of the NT deserve better than to have essential services being used as a political plaything.


Oh, thats novel, just as well Gerry is there to prevent that. :rolleyes:

[Counter-rotation]

How nice it must be to be the NT Government. You can basically F@CK SH1T up time after time, then release a media report blaming someone else. Unless I'm wrong, the major delays that lead to Kok Vaskalis statements (Jaba's prev post) were related to aircraft - and that was their choice based on price.

Perhaps Pearl would like to rebutt this baloney, but can't - there's a lucrative contract to be announced in the near future... When was any Government contract, in the whole history of Government contracts, awarded entirely on merit? (And that includes both price and service delivery).

Watch it all turn into an even bigger joke, shambles, disgrace, than it already is. If you're remote in the top end, DON"T GET SICK OR INJURED!!!

The NT Government is incapable of doing anything this important even half acceptablely (this is a Government that can't even provide reliable electricity to an Australian capital city, and not a very big one at that).

Their motivation is to farm it out entirely, so that they can wag their finger at a contractor if there is a bad outcome. Watch their faces when they get the price. Will anything change?

In my observations, morale is now non-existent (nurses, pilots, doctors), compared to what it was (even with the shortcomings that always were present). It will stay that way or get even worse. My tip is for (d'uh!!) more resignations in the final months (thanks MB, how much was the payout, exactly?!) - will there even BE a service in April, May??!!

NT Government, HANG YOUR HEAD. :yuk: :mad:

Melodramatic? Maybe, but that's how I see it. I hope I'm wrong...

CR.

[illusion]

I understand that the RFDS (WA) has had three (3) engine failures on PC12 aircraft in the past 4 months or so. THANKFULLY no one hurt or paint scratched. As they happened in day VMC on the ground or on climb out.

Does anyone know more?

[Stationair8]

Welcome to the Nanny Territory managed by the Northern Territory Gunment Pty Ltd.

Do they still have the motto if it breathes root it or shoot it?

[bushy]

It appears that there is something most unusual going on with the airmed contract.
It reminds me of Aman aviation and the coastwatch contract years ago.
The N.T. airmed contract should be operated by a N.T. company, crewed by territorians, and the government should pay the necessary price to get a proper, local service in place, without the need for the operator to go raising funds through public subscription, bequests etc.
It is beginning to look as if this is becoming a political football, and first prize in a lottery for the financial speculators. The same people who stuffed up the world economy.
We should also be told why the contract is being cancelled early and what evidence this is based on.

[Xeptu]

The N.T aeromedical service has always had its political issues, not so much with the aircraft provider and it's associated services but more the medical side of the operation dating back as far as it goes, too many arms operating independently.

Clearly someone in government is seriously pissed off over all these constant issues over time, so who's going to be blamed, directly or indirectly the same person in any aviation business, the pilot.

I have no doubt this is going to be a bullsup from the start, purely because of the reasons for doing it.

I can see this will end up a PC-12 operation, the move to cheaper single engine aircraft, a small hidden away element of a much bigger grander change.

I can tell you despite what engine manufacturers say, the failure rate of a turbine engine is once every 4000 hrs, I'm living proof of that and I would have had my 5th late last year had it not been for a late roster change, so I'm still due, the frequency is unchanged.

In the Northern Territory, at night, you can kiss your arse and everyone aboard goodbye, wishful thinking if anyone suggests you might pull that one off. God himself would have to be on board.

This puts the incumbent pilots in a difficult position, do I fly on and hope for the best, hang up my boots or move on, one things certain, the northern territory aeromedical service in any form isn't worth dying for.

Goodluck guys, my thoughts are with you all during these difficult coming months.

[Stationair8]

Looking into my crystal ball for inspiration and answers, perhaps they might use a Westwind for overwater and long distance medivacs, and then base 2 PC-12's in Darwin, and a PC-12 in Gove and Tindal?

Like to know what the Paspaley family did wrong?

[PLovett]

S8, I don't think the Paspaley family did anything wrong. :=

Their links though were to the opposition side of politics and in the NT that is enough to have the ground cut out from under your feet. Once the powers that be had an excuse (old aircraft) to end the contract, they did. :mad:

'Tis going to be very interesting watching someone reinvent the wheel if the incoming company doesn't pick up the displaced Pearl drivers. :ugh:

[Capt Claret]

That's a long bow PLovett. The Labor Govt was elected in the NT in 2001. 9 years to cut the ground from under Pearl's feet? And, you shouldn't be too surprised at Paspaley connections to both CLP & Labor thinking people.

[Howard Hughes]

the failure rate of a turbine engine is once every 4000 hrs
The failue rates of turbines is no where near that frequent.

Five failures? You are above average my friend!;)

[PLovett]

CC, you may be right on their connections but I still stand by the comment that they didn't do anything wrong. My understanding was that Pearl had the contract for the northern half due to links dating back to the LCP days in power.

The fact that there are two contracts for the NT beggars belief with a very ill defined line in the middle. It reaches ludicrous proportions when a third party is sometimes tasked to transport patients across the "border". That it works is due to the professionalism of the flight and medical crews involved.

[morno]

Xeptu,
What absolute nonsense crap that is that you came up with.

Until a few weeks ago, PC-12's had been operating for about 15 years in Australia before the first in-flight shutdown. That's at a guess, somewhere in the vicinity of 350,000hrs+ of operation.

Knowing the capabilities of the PC-12, I would quite happily fly one any time of the day or night, in any weather conditions.

I wish all you PC-12 bashers would just cut the crap until you've got time in the machines.

rant over

morno

[Josh Cox]

If given the choice, I'd take a PC12 over a B200 everytime, and yes I have flown both types.

In the aeromedical role, the PC12, IMHO is the ducks nuts.

[clear to land]

It is a better cabin (constant cross section) but PT-6's DO FAIL. It is all about options-a B200 WILL fly away on 1 at MAUW! The crew and patients are owed maximum reliability, not minimum cost!

[morno]

Did having 2 engines help the poor bugger at Toowoomba?

Didn't a British Airways 747 have a failure of all FOUR engines once?

The Gimli Glider, need I say more?

The PC-12 cabin is built to withstand a force of around 20G. IF your engine did fail, and IF you were so be that unlucky that you were out of gliding range of somewhere (we're talking say 50nm's @ 20,000ft, nil wind), then you'd have to be even unluckier I think (unless you just didn't even try) to not survive in a cabin built to that strength.

I don't have exact statistics, but world wide, I believe there have been no fatal accidents that have related to an in-flight shutdown of a PC-12, that have been handled correctly.

I'd like all these single engine, IFR, turbine bashers, to provide me with cold hard facts, that there are more fatal accidents from the result of an in-flight shut down on a single engined, turbine powered aircraft, than that of a multi-engine turbine powered aircraft. If somebody can, I will remain corrected. But I have a feeling I won't be.

Time to wake up and look at reality people, and not your own biased opinions. Single engine, turbine powered, IFR operations are becoming more and more common. In Australia especially, the hoops you need to jump through for ASETPA approval is immense, and then the constant engine data monitoring that goes on with these machines especially, will pick up even the slightest change in engine operation, before you would even notice it in the cockpit.

Cost aside, do you think people would be buying them in the large numbers they are, if there were people constantly dieing in the machines?

For the record, I fly both PC-12 and B200, and I feel just as safe in the PC-12 as I do the B200.

morno

[bushy]

Not long ago a C208 that was approved for ASEPTA operations had a chip detector light illuminated and it landed on a road a few miles south of Alice Springs airport with pax on board. If it had been a chieftain it would have been able to land at the airport.
Whether we like it or not, the facts are that a twin engined aircraft performs much better than a single, and the pilot has more options after an engine failure in flight. That is an undeniable fact.
PT6's DO fail. That is also an undeniable fact. They are more reliable than piston engines, but they are NOT infallable.
It is also a fact that single engined aircraft have done much good work in Australia in the past, and will do so in the future. Singles are simpler and less demanding and so less mistakes are made in singles.(all things being equal.)

We have a crazy idea that singles are not suitable for instrument flying, and this is wrong.

[rcoight]

Bravo, morno!

Finally, some sensible comment from someone who actually knows what they're talking about instead of the rubbish that comes from the usual suspects who've probably never been near a PC12.

I can tell you that you are right - a study of the (NTSB) statistics has clearly shown that there is a significantly higher fatal accident rate for twin turbine aircraft than for single turbine aircraft after the failure of an engine.

In other words, if you are in a turboprop aircraft and an engine fails, you are more likely to die if that aircraft is a twin that if it is a single.

That is a FACT, which is conveniently ignored by the dinosaurs whose standard response is to dream up some ludicrously unlikely scenario and then triumphantly state that their B200 would bring them home safe while the poor PC12 driver would be a flaming wreck on the ground...

Again I'll ask the questions:

How do you explain the accident statistics that show a lower fatal accident rate for turbine singles than for turbine twins?

And given those FACTS, how do you come up with your mantra that "two engines are ALWAYS SAFER than one?"

:confused:


Oh, and before anyone says "Yes, but the stats don't count all the times a twin loses an engine and lands safely, consider that they also don't count all the times the single loses its engine and lands safely. The statistics only count ACCIDENTS"

[The Green Goblin]

The same stats are also valid for piston twin vs piston single.

There are also a hell of a lot more turbine twins flying around :} So yes if you want to do percentages I'd love to see percentage of the fleet of PC12/C208 engine failures that led to fatalities from a failure vs the percentage of turbine twins in the fleet that led to fatalities from a failure.

[rcoight]

The standard way of measuring accident rates is to consider the number of accidents (or fatalities) per x number of flying hours, so the size of the fleet is irrelevent.

Whilst there no doubt are many more twins about, I think most people would agree that there are enough C208 / TBM / PC12's etc. floating around now that they represent a pretty sizeable fleet in themselves.

Using the NTSB's figures from 1998 - 2007, single engine turboprops had one-third of the engine-related fatal accident rate of multi-engine turboprops.

That is a FACT.

[Xeptu]

My point wasn't about engine reliability, or a PC-12/B200 debate. A single engine aircraft will do all the same things a multi engine aircraft will do with the same equipment, no argument with that. Its an engine and they malfunction, in most cases it's as simple as an "O" ring, linkage, incorrect essembly or component.

The point I was making is that, if your flying around the territory at night, particularly in the wet season in a single engine aircraft and that engine stops, you're dead. To argue against that means you support acceptable losses, which is little comfort to the crew and medical staff who are exposed to that risk every day.

Had two of the four failures I have experienced in my career occurred in a single engine aircraft, there is no doubt I would not be here today, end of story.

[Dances With Dingoes]

Any news on the interim contractor? I heard a bit of goss that an operator was supplying 4 King Airs with spectrum units of some sort, and that they had no need to recruit any new pilots from the current pearl guys as they already had their own crew, god only knows where they are coming from. Like I said, Overheard a bit of goss.. Can anyone confirm any of that?

AND
Can someone please just go and start a SE V's ME thread so we can have this one back.:sad:

DD

[Howard Hughes]

The PC-12 cabin is built to withstand a force of around 20G.
Sadly your body is not designed to withstand a force of around 20G!:eek:

[maxgrad]

Dances With Dingos, the goss is that 4 a/c are on their way from Poland, 4 spectrum units, all single stretcher a/c, 1 with a lifter.

DO NOT GET SICK AFTER JUNE!!!! if you are in the top end.

[Dances With Dingoes]

Well then it is a good thing the guys up there only lift one patient at a time then eh :ugh:

Any news on the jobs? And who will have the AOC they will be operating under?

DD

[havick]

As it is a combined fixed wing/helo contract hopefully the NT guvment goes for a decent helicopter.

[FGD135]

Apologies to all for sending the thread back in the direction of twin vs. single, but I must pick rcoight up on a couple of things.

The statistic you are quoting may well be a FACT but it does nothing to address the question of which configuration one would rather be in when the inevitable engine failure occurs.

That statistic merely shows that it is better to be in the single when you make crash-like contact with the ground. We already knew this.

But the whole point is to avoid the crash part - and that is where the two engines come in.

Almost every engine failure in a single will result in crash-like contact with the ground, but not every engine failure in the twin will.

That statistic - as you have acknowledged - does not consider engine failures in the twin where the twin continued on to land safely.

We would like to see the statistic that does take this into account. That is exactly what The Green Goblin was saying. I think you misunderstood him.

... they had no need to recruit any new pilots from the current pearl guys as they already had their own crew, god only knows where they are coming from ...They have 14-18 experienced King Air pilots sitting around with nothing else to do? Yeah, right.

[maxgrad]

appreciate you wanting to discuss twin/single but this is not a thread on that.
Those that are caught up in this debarcle require this thread and others like it to air our situation and gain information. This is the depth we have reached when we can only get answers from a rumour network.

[bushy]

This thread is about airmedical work, and there are airmedical operators that operate single engined aircraft, and others that operate twin engined aircraft. It is appropriate to discuss such things on this thread. It is relevent.
It appears that some are uncomfortable discussing this.

[maxgrad]

No I don't give a rats what is used apart from safety, functionality and if I will be part of it.

The thread is about the NT aeromed contract.
You work it out.:ugh:

[sumtingwong]

maxgrad, absolutely. :ok:

[Skidmark]

Hey you guys with the big chip on your shoulder!!!! This aint about PC12's. Never was!! The tender document clearly states the requirement for multiengine turboprops! OK?!?!?




The rumour for the interim contract has it that the ol' AUSJET guys have the fixed wing portion. Are these guys up to the task? Are their single stretcher set-ups gonna be able to handle the work?
Seems that the Pearl guys were struggling with a dual stretcher configuration according to the NT Guvmen'.

I take it that most of us saw the segment on sixty minutes last night. How are the Careflight guys (read management) going with the bad publicity.
A westwind sitting on the bottom of the ocan with Careflight written on the side!!!:E

[Pera]

Are their single stretcher set-ups gonna be able to handle the work?

Easy. Just work out who started the fight and take the other guy first. :ok:

[maxgrad]

Dual stretchers are not isolated to the NTAMS contract.
They work fine apart from being a pain in the armpit.

My guess is that it is political. Pearl could continue during the interim until the new Tender is in action. A/c, facilities in place. go figure.

[FGD135]

The tender document clearly states the requirement for multiengine turboprops! OK?!?!?


This is true, but it also encourages bidders to submit alternative bids for whatever they think is more efficient. This means that you can bid with single engine pistons, if you so desire.

[maxgrad]

The tender states the initial bid is for a twin engine airframe, alternatives can then be made be it single or multi.
eg
Option 1 Be200
Option 2 Pilatus PC 12
Option 3 Bloody walk

[havick]

The NT govt will put all the responses to the tender out on a matrix and choose which options will give what they perceive to be the best bang for their buck.

They will look at various things not just only the bottom dollar.

But all things considered there are already PC12's in the state operating (see EMS fixed wing out of ASP), so that sort of already does set a precedence you would have to think (rightly or wrongly).

As for the rotary component it will be interesting to see what airframe they invest their biccies into.

Best everyone takes the emotion out of it, it's just another contract. And nothing's a given until it's announced. Just remember an interim contract doesn't necessarily mean that their foot is firmly in the door for the long term contract (read careflight).

[Dances With Dingoes]

They will look at various things not just only the bottom dollar.
That is what governments do, but we are dealing with the NT GOVERNMENT. They will surely 'look at various things not just the bottom dollar' procrastinate, f:mad:k around, argue, shift blame, cover their arses, pass the buck and then finally, GO WITH THE CHEAPEST OPTION.

That is one theory.

Another is, RFDS SE are advertising. But I thought they were going to have to find places for the Vic Air Ambo pilots that will be soon be replaces by Pel Air.

May be a bit of a stretch but is the SE section starting to crew up for a possible bid for the NT contract? They did after all download a copy of the contract and they are capable of providing the twin engine requirement. Unlike Central and Western sections.

I Love a good conspiracy.

DD:E

[sumtingwong]

Any further rumours or news?

[Wally Mk2]

Yep that's right "DWD" the 'rufdus' are hiring to take over da world with TWIN engined A/C:-)
Don't 4get the SE section of the 'rufus' have 5 bases & not everyone in Vic Ops wants/could move to another base at the end of contract so positions within cover ALL bases not just the holiday camp we have here:}
I say to those that have the exp get on board there's no finer institution:ok:

Wmk2, I say keep 'em guessing:}

[Counter-rotation]

RFDS job vacancies (http://www.flyingdoctor.org.au/Careers/Job-Vacancies/)

Nothing showing here for pilot vacancies...

AFAP "Latest Jobs" (http://www.afap.org.au/html/s02_article/article_view.asp?id=98&nav_cat_id=127&nav_top_id=73)

For those that are interested, check this one.

Sumtingwong - you asked if there was anything further... I have to say that no one has yet mentioned the departure of one of the main actors. Those who know, know who I mean. I can't help wondering if this helps or hurts any chance Pearl had of actually having a working King Air fleet beyond June 30th.

Out with the old, in with the new, as they say in the classics.

Can anyone say "Dornier 328"?

CR.

[Josh Cox]

I agree Wally, its a fantastic job, the flying is awesome.

Just don't join the "twin engine circle jerk" crew,,,,, you know who you are.....:) (sorry couldn't come up with a Sao joke at such short notice).

My prediction: PC12's all round :).

[The Voice]

the departure of one of the main actors talking of which, is there any story behind the departure?

[scarediecat]

Ah yes "The bang for your buck" factor is how any contract is decided nowadays. What will be the catch phrase when the "bang" gets too big for the "buck" thats paid?

[Josh Cox]

Have had someone much smarter than me explain the single / multi argument for me, as it stands on this forum, its easy really:

1) Accountants run businesses, the PC12 kills everything else financially, repayments, running costs, reliability etc etc. So PC12's it will be, then,

2) One day a PC12 will claim a crew due to the whole single engine thing (hope it doesn't though), the rest of the Dr's and Nurses will no longer fly in these aircraft, problem solved.

I love the PC12, it is far better than any B200 I've flown, PC12 is far safer than a twin engine piston.

But Accountants have decided the PC12 is the aircraft of choice, and no other manufacturers have a competitive product.

Previously worked for a company that did a lot of low level in AC50's, at a management meeting, the company accountant seriously suggested running the AC50 on one engine whilst carrying out this low level flying, you know to cut the fuel consumption in half, average flight 6 hours. This is what has to change.

[Stationair8]

That would be the same accountant that sits on his ergonomic chair, in his air conditioned office, while using his ergonomically designed office desk that complies with all the OH&S criteria?

[Wally Mk2]

"Josh I've not read a more truer statement from you buddy........"the PC 12 kills everything"........ I notice ya didn't say it was safer than a twin turbine though mate?:E


Wmk2...............damn bolding!:)

p.s........who's smarter than you Josh? nah couldn't be anyone surely!:E

[Josh Cox]

I was at Flightsafety in Wichita a few years ago and was presented some interesting statistics (NTSB), each year more people are killed by Multi engine engine failures (VMCA etc etc) than engine failures in single engine aircraft, think what you will.

[baron_beeza]

Hmmmm.... I think people tend to forget that you are twice as likely to suffer an engine failure in a twin.
At least....., factor in fuel system mishandling, and the like, and in reality it may even be a figure of 2.3 or so.

Back on topic a little more, have there been changes in personnel, at a senior level, with the current contract holder ?
I would not be surprised but I am a little distance from the action at the moment.

[Pseudonymn]

Check this out

all airmed jobs advertised at:
NRMA CareFlight - Career Opportunities (http://careflight.org/about_us/careers/)
(scroll down down to the bottom of the page)

[Horatio Leafblower]

Funny you know - I was going to say exactly the same thing! :ok:

Careflight fixed-wing jobs (http://careflight.org/about_us/careers/fixed_wing_pilots/)

[The Green Goblin]

Those minimum crew requirements are less than the current contractual requirements from what I understand.

Interesting!

[Dances With Dingoes]

Anyone know yet who owns the AOC the fixed wings will be operating under?

Or who owns the aircraft themselves for that matter?

[lordofthewings]

NRMA Careflight(NSW) dont operate fixed wing aircraft??????
They use Pel Air and whoever else they can get...Strange the add doesnt list a type.

[Pindan warrior]

in the fine print - "The Northern Territory Department of Health and Families has the right to approve all applicants."
is this their way to get rid of some of the current pilots they dont want involved anymore:eek:

[Howard Hughes]

"The Northern Territory Department of Health and Families has the right to approve all applicants."
The right to approve all applicants is standard fare for an Air Ambulance contract, it is more to do with your suitability for working with patients in particular children, rather than your flying ability! Although some States do employ the services of a consultant to approve pilot qualifications.

They must already have a Chief Pilot, as they are not advertising for one...:E

[ARNTU]

more likely to have a failure in a twin ey?
Okay two options:
1. you have a failure of your critical engine in a B200 in the middle of a remote area.
2. you have a failure of your only engine in the middle of a remote area

and spare me the gliding thing...id like to see just how many remote communities would light up their strips with 15 mins notice

[AussieO2]

Four B200 ambos from Norway just ferried in to Essendon. Any connection?

[fifty]

They certainly are the aircraft going to be used. So they are going to reconfigured to Austarlian medical standards and be registerd by CASA then in Darwin for July 1st. Good Luck.

[fifty]

reckon they will refitted and re registered by CASA and moved up north by 1st July?

[Counter-rotation]

1) G'day Aussie O2

Four B200 ambos from Norway just ferried in to Essendon

- were they "Ambos", or regular King Air airframes?

2) And no announcement yet from NT Government - surprise surprise!! (Unless I missed it) :hmm:

3) Reportedly Careflight are willing to pay their fixed wing drivers "the same" as what existing Pearl aeromed contract drivers are being paid. Anyone who thinks that sounds good, beware: how many more hours per month will be involved I wonder... Apples with apples, people. :ugh:

CR.

[AussieO2]

All four are white with red stripes, LifePort EMS configured, 1993 models , each with approx 14,000 hours TTAF. Fitted with, Ram Air Recovery System, Short Field Enhancement, Dual Aft Body Strakes, Hartzell/Raisbeck Quiet Turbofan Propellor Kit with Auto Feather, Brake de-Ice System, Freon Air Conditioning, High Floatation landing gear...all as per their For Sale sheet on the net. Previously operated as Air Ambulances in Norway. Arrived Monday night into ESS.

[betaman]

Fitted with, Ram Air Recovery System, Short Field Enhancement, Dual Aft Body Strakes, Hartzell/Raisbeck Quiet Turbofan Propellor Kit with Auto Feather, Brake de-Ice System, Freon Air Conditioning, High Floatation landing gear

The brake de-ice system should come in handy, those Top End winters are a bitch.:ok:

Seems like a hell of a lot of time, money & effort for a six month contract.:hmm:

[bushy]

betaman,
I think the de-icing will be used.
Your comment about the huge effort for a six month period is interesting. But we are not supposed to notice things like that.
I remember something like this happening with the coastwatch contract a long time ago.

[Harry Cooper]

We are talking about the NT Government here - do you really think it will only be a 6 month interim contract?

[AussieO2]

Result of the 5 year contract are expected to be made public in June or July, according to the web site..

[The Green Goblin]

All good until Australasian Jet parks them up in Darwin and tries to get fuel.........sorry sir your MED1 can't proceed because the aircraft is inpounded at Darwin due to unpaid fuel and airport fees :}

They are also operating out of the cursed hanger they went broke in last time.

Pearl will get the contract with their bid for new Kingairs, being a locally owned company and the experience to back it up.

Clyde Fenton would roll in his grave if he could see what mess this whole affair has become.

[betaman]

Hi Bushy

betaman,
I think the de-icing will be used.


The brake de-ice is a fairly complex & heavy option for the King Air which if it had to be used in the Top End then there would have to be some serious changes in the weather (read second ice age or something similar) great for Norway though.:ok:

Your comment about the huge effort for a six month period is interesting. But we are not supposed to notice things like that.
I remember something like this happening with the coastwatch contract a long time ago

I remember it too, I guess time will tell.:ugh:

We are talking about the NT Government here - do you really think it will only be a 6 month interim contract?

Well ummm no actually.:hmm:

[maxgrad]

TGG
you are wrong on a number of levels.

[The Green Goblin]

TGG
you are wrong on a number of levels.

How so?

Ausjet still owes a fortune in Darwin, no matter how they spruke it as being a different company etc etc

[Moniker]

I heard that CareFlight was experiencing some difficulty in obtaining a hangar or even space in a hangar for the ops. Let alone the raft of other drama's they're facing.

As for the tender - when's parliament sitting again?

[ryvita]

All this is very interesting, however the reality is this supposed company with no money has just purchased 4 late model Kingairs from the largest Aeromed operator in Europe that are 20 years newer than the existing service. Not bad from a company with no money???? Didn't these guys have 727's and 2 DC9's ?????

The facts are just about to become an awakening for all the knockers of Careflight and AusJet.

I watched a lot of ramble in this thread, pc12 vs Kingair, pearl and going to continue, Care flight will never get up and running etc etc etc etc.

People the facts are this:

Careflight are coming
4 late model aeromed king airs are coming
Careflight helicopters are already there

Whatever happens next, you work it out..............

[maxgrad]

Reality check

Few drivers
few medical staff
little to no idea of operations in NT
Little to no local knowledge
little to no infrastructure.

Thank you
have an idea how this will go.

ADD NT Govt
All bets off!

install dumb ass decisions and scapegoat, fear mungering(sic) and total lack of leadership.

[fifty]

Late model Kingairs are still 17 years old.
Remember the tender requires fixed wing assets to be no older than 8 years.

[pa60ops]

Nice looking photos of the new aircraft - but come on - stop calling a 1993 model a late model kingair - if that build date is correct, then these planes are still pretty old. Would you call your 1993 car near new too???:ok:

[natbanger]

Current service are mid 70's machines and mostly currently unservicable.
This is an interim contract only as current operator had contract cancelled due non performance to the good NT people. Long Term is anyone's guess.
Did any of you spend $8 odd million to support the NT aeromed service in the interim?? I didn't think so...............
Are people going to still be employed, yes.
Is the service still going to be run by a provider with a solid 25 year history of the same? Yes
Have any of you owned a GA operation or run a vital health service?? Didn't think so............
Are any of you brave enough to use your real names here?? Didn't think so..........

Hero's are in the grandstand people, grow some balls.

Good luck Careflight, well done for stepping up where no one else will.

[natbanger]

I guess the current helicopter contractor picked up the pieces from the failed pearl operation (this is not a reflection on the pearl staff just to clarify).
Interesting to note that the RFDS had 4 WA Surplus King Airs sitting on the ground and would not offer them to NT to assist. Again closed shop for the interim, no. Just no one else stood up. facts people please...............
Hilarious for the patients..............maybe for you, but no. Again thankfully the good people of the NT will have a service provider that actually does care about the patient, not political games by operators.

[fifty]

RFDS werent asked. NTG let John Cornish decide who got the interim.

[maxgrad]

Natbanger,

NTAMS run via NT Health refused to upgrade aircraft at the current operators request, preferring to re tender.

General public have seriously no idea, fact is NT health have allowed service to diminish even though contractor, and all staff have jumped up and down for years to make the needed changes.

No Drs in Katherine or Gove, NT health
There used to be a roo problem, things have changed.

NT govt is using the current contractor as a scape goat and public just go along for the ride.

At the end of all this you will get a better service as the Govt will use it as a political win. Years down the track they will F*@$ it up by bad decisions and middle management ladder climbing.

The media love to be able to attack an entity, in this case it is the current operator,(though certainly not blameless).

You make your choice on what to believe.

[Skidmark]

I started this thread as a rumour. Ok, so the rumour turned out to be fact! Now I'm sure the people at Careflight aren't appreciating the attacks they are receiving here as well as the Pearl Aircraft and possibly management. Note that the incumbent crews are not included. I know that aircraft don't really know what is going on but I'm sure you get my jist. (No smart arsed comments here):E

You're making your identities very obvious by the comments in these posts and it's really amusing - but grow up please!!:mad:

The NT Government has a lot to answer for here and I wish they would get involved in this thread. It would seem the NTG has done no consultation nor research into this and that the Cornish report should've been used as toilet paper.

Here's some facts:
Pearl's aircraft are old and maintenance intensive.

No-one is irreplaceable - ie. pilots are pilots. You guys at Pearl are not the gods of aviation you might think you are!

It does however take on average 6 -8 months to train an aeromed/medivac pilot.

Aeromed/medivac nursing and medical staff require around 2 weeks of OJT in the air as well as training on the ground as required by the regulator as cabin crew.

Aircraft must be VH registered and be refitted (though I don't know what fit the ex Norway A/C were in. Must not come up to spec.)

Aircraft must have all AD's completed.

All aircraft require unscheduled maintenance.

All operators require a place of business with which to hang up their AOC.

Old operators should look after their contracts a little better!!!!!

What do you think people?? Are the NTG dreaming here with their puny budget and cowboy attitude? For 6 months???? You gotta be kidding:mad:

NTG clowns, you guys are in dreamtime:ugh:

[maxgrad]

Skidmark

I have never been one to hide my ID on this site. Those who know me, well, know me.

To clarify,
"You guys at Pearl are not the gods of aviation you might think you are!"

Your statement above is very far off the mark, you have a jaundiced view of the crews you so happily slam. you also state to grow up.
Your own medicine please.

Pearl Av employees are not able to provide detail on the operation on their employer. Contractual obligation.

The public need to know the truth so the most workable outcome is enabled. Basically do it the best way possible to get the job done safely and legally. Do this and a higher probability of positive patient outcomes is generated.

If this means a different operator, so be it. Money or political play should not be a factor. The cheapest bid is just that, cheap, best outcome?

[Skidmark]

Maxgrad


I don't think you read my post with the intention as for it to be read! As would appear you have commented my "jaundiced" view of Pearl pilots is but a minor piece of the the whole picture.

I will reitterate. It takes 6-8 months to train one such pilot to the standard as YOU no doubt possess. NOTE THE TIME FRAME!!! :=

The NTG has not afforded the participants involved in this debate a reasonable time frame to ready themselves for a 6 month stint at the helm.

Back to the Pearl pilots. You guys should be commended if not for simply hanging in there till the bell tolls but for all your trials with outdated A/C and an outdated EBA. But you are replaceable! It just takes a long time to replace you.:D

[maxgrad]

Now all that I agree with!

The NT Govt should be accountable for the deaths that WILL occur over the six(+) months.

[FGD135]

Fitted with, Ram Air Recovery System, Short Field Enhancement, Dual Aft Body Strakes, Hartzell/Raisbeck Quiet Turbofan Propellor Kit with Auto Feather, Brake de-Ice System, Freon Air Conditioning, High Floatation landing gear...all as per their For Sale sheet on the net.

And, I note from the photo, the extended length gear doors. One common mod that is absent in this case is the wing lockers.

I doubt they would have HF radios - but I'm sure these would be installed at YMEN.

[tio540]

Then there is maintenance, who, where and how?

[xxgoldxx]

to purchase/lease those aircraft, ramp up all the crew.. set up the facilities etc based on a 6 month contract for an operator not currently in the game....

one of two options here....

the NTG just forked out enough $$ for a 4 year contract at least... or...

the future contract is a done deal..

even the NTG has to be accountable to some respect....... option 2 is my bet..

[Counter-rotation]

You guys at Pearl are not the gods of aviation you might think you are!

Skidmark, while you have addressed this somewhat in a following post, I still take issue with that statement, and cannot find anywhere, where any of the Pearl guys have claimed to be anything, least of all "gods of aviation"... :confused:

even the NTG has to be accountable to some respect...

xxgoldxx, accountability (or lack of it) has, in my observation, been the overarching problem with this service in the last few years. This goes for the contractor AND the NT Health Department. Until that changes, the service will obviously struggle. But I hope you're right, and accountability is present in some form if/when it turns (further) to sh!t :ouch:

from the failed pearl operation
Natbanger, bloody hell mate, where do I start with you?! :ugh: The "failure" you speak of is firmly with the planning and management of the service by the NT Health Department. You are obviously a fanboy of Careflight, for some reason, and have all the ignorant opinion that Govt agenda seeks to cultivate on the matter. I have no experience with Careflight, but I cannot believe that they believe that what they are proposing, will work. If it does, good luck to 'em!

Good luck Careflight, well done for stepping up where no one else will
That is the biggest joke I have read on PPRuNe in quite a while, well done!!

I'm not going to waste time typing the AVALANCHE of accounts of the behaviour I have seen personally from the NT Govt, but I can safely say that nothing will surprise me any more!! What surprises me is that they can sleep at night, and that they get away with it.

SOME INTERESTING QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION:

Pearl, in it's current (or earlier - Skywest) form have been doing this work for how many years?
What has changed in that time? (hint - lots, both in aviation and NT Health Dept.)
Why exactly isn't the service now operating into Tindal at night? (hint - don't look to the NT News for information on this one...)
Who identified, and tried to solve the aging aircraft fleet issues first?
Who is a commercial organisation, with a right to supply and be paid (only) for what they supply?
Who decides how, and in what aircraft, the service will be provided to "the good people" of the NT? (thought I'd throw in an EASY one for ya Natbanger!)
Who needs to blame someone else when things go bad, so they don't jeopardise votes?

It's a grubby business from start to finish when you're dealing with politicians...

CR.

[betaman]

Natbangar
Current service are mid 70's machines

Are you sure about that? A quick check of the CASA aircraft register revealed the following.
VH-NTE BB-529 1979
VH-NTG BL-09 1980
VH-NTH BL-12 1980
VH-NTS BL-30 1981

mostly currently unservicable.

Not sure how you would know that but I will take your word for it. The King Air is a great aircraft but like any aircraft of that type is fairly maintenance intensive especially in the tropics. Incidently it doesn't take much to ground an IFR aeromed aircraft pressurisation problems, airconditioning & wx radar come to mind items that ordinarily wouldn't be a problem for other airwork or charter operations. I have also flown King Airs with significantly less hours than these aircraft from Norway which believe it or not went U/S on a regular basis. So I hope Ausjet have good maintenance support because they will need it.:ok:

Is the service still going to be run by a provider with a solid 25 year history of the same? Yes

Which provider are you talking about CareFlight NSW or AusJet? If it's CareFlight NSW then I know about their experience in the rotary world but how much fixed wing aeromed experience in the NT do they have? Likewise how much aeromed experience do Ausjet have?

More to the point what checks & balances have been put in place to ensure that another Norfolk Is ditching fiasco doesn't occur & who faces the music if things go pear shaped?

Have any of you owned a GA operation or run a vital health service?? Didn't think so............

Yes to the first ques & no to the second, but have worked as an aeromed pilot. So I have a bit of an idea of the size of the task ahead & take my hat off to CF & AJ for taking it on.:ok:

Good luck Careflight, well done for stepping up where no one else will.

Did any other operator get look in?

ryvita interesting first post:hmm:

All this is very interesting, however the reality is this supposed company with no money has just purchased 4 late model Kingairs from the largest Aeromed operator in Europe that are 20 years newer than the existing service. Not bad from a company with no money????

If these "late model King Airs" are as others are saying 93 models then 20 years newer is a bit of an embelishment don't you think?

Didn't these guys have 727's and 2 DC9's ?????
Not sure what the relevance of that is on a topic about aeromedical services?

People the facts are this:
A bit lite on in the facts department most of what you said has been common knowledge for some time. :ok:

As a taxpayer & potential end user of aeromed services I have very serious concerns about the way the aeromed industry is going, in general not just the NT, the Norfolk Is ditching & the Vic/TAS aeromed tender are cases in point.:ugh:

I also have concerns how state & federal governments oversee contracts in general, the recent insulation debacle is but one example. The scheme was fairly hastlily conceived and poorly implemented with not much oversight and the results speak for themselves:ugh:

I sincerely hope that all goes well up there & my concerns are unfounded.

[Dances With Dingoes]

Ryvita you are a dick

4 late model aeromed king airs are coming

Calling a '93 model aircraft a new airframe,,,, SHEESH,

My girlfriend isn't even that old :E

DD

[Dances With Dingoes]

Are any of you brave enough to use your real names here?? Didn't think so..........I would be willing to bet one whole dollar that NATBANGER is not your real name either, although it may well be what your associates call you.

Everybody knows Maxgrad. He's a F##KING LEGEND. :ok:

DD

[xxgoldxx]

Anybody know why the RFDS quote for the the "interim contract" was rejected..?

I mean .. they must have been approached right...?? as the countries leading/largest Aeromed operator and all....

Oh wait .. this is the land of intervention and all...!

[NTChicky]

I spoke to some guys at Care Flight but couldn't get any sense out of them. Either they didn't know themselves, or they just don't want girls flying for them.

Can anyone tell me;
what they are paying and what sort of hours the pilots are expected to do?
Do pilots have to wash and help maintain the aircraft?
What experience requirements do they have?
Do they have the special lifters that the Pearl aircraft have? If not how do they get the people in and out?

[Counter-rotation]

NTChicky

All good questions, and discussed here already... Either your post is a wind up, or... :}

Don't expect straight answers, and you'll be fine. Do what they seem to expect - just sign up and worry about it all later :ouch: (For what might be a six month job only, too! Or do they know something we all don't :confused:)

Ha ha ha ha it cracks me up! :D

CR.

[betaman]

I see natbanger & ryvita have gone a bit quiet of late?:hmm:

I was hoping for some more "facts people please..............." :E

[Skydrol_ise]

All pretty quiet on the NT aeromed front last few months:mad,

Any idea of when the new contract is to be awarded, I heard the Careflight interim service has been very "interesting" and perhaps less availability than the old Pearl service ever was.:mad:

[Dances With Dingoes]

'People' tell me that the incumbent are moving twice the number of people per week. But 'People' say a lot, talk is cheap and I am not privy to the stats.

As well as this, I hear them utilising a chartered conquest from time to time to move several non urgent cases at a time, thus sharing the love with some local operators. From where I sit that would be a good move since a lot operators in the NT are actively trying to obstruct the operation. Heaven forbid one of the relatives of these operators ever need medical assistance in remote NT. I guess there is no emotion in business, win at all costs :ugh:

Interesting that one of the HA pilots is on here actively bagging out CF when they are putting a good amount of $$$ into conquest hire from that very company. Small industry old mate := advise caution.

Skydrol, I have no idea if my info on stats is any better than yours however I do find the subject very interesting (I don't get out much) :E , so if you have any more please keep us informed.

As far as an announcement goes, my guess is we will see the interim extended six months at a time for 2 to 4 years from its inception. I will bet you one whole dollar that it goes for at least 3 years :E

BTW, 'They' tell me the AOC is finalised and the changeover is imminent. Anyone?

DD

[The Voice]

DWD - just an observation, but didn't you bag out only in the last couple of weeks, people coming here and posting things 'that they'd heard' or what 'people had told them'?

Yet, here you are, doing exactly the same thing. Just an observation of course.

Here's a fact ... the interim contractor is not currently moving double what the former NTAMS people did. THAT, I can promise you, is a fallacy.

If there is a chartered aircraft being tossed into the mix by them, that'd be to cover the contract shortfall due to u/s aircraft.

[Dances With Dingoes]

I was intending to ask a question instead of make a statement, however after re reading my post I must say you have a point. Cryptic speaking has lead me to be unclear and candid and for this I do apologise.

The Voice, can you tell me or can anyone else tell me the number of people currently being moved and the number of people that were transported under the old regime? or even better tell me where I could see it for myself if it is available to the public.

I am not looking for an argument, just a bit of info.

I don't want to join a mindless rock throwing at CF if it is not justified, I also do not subscribe to the comments made by Ryvita and Natbanger about Pearl Pilots thinking themselves as "Sky Gods" of the NT, I think thta comment alone has brought a truckload of bad feeling against CF.

Just a few stats and I and I will leave you alone,,, I Promise :ok:

DD

[Barry Bernoulli]

Aero-med services 'not up to scratch' | News | NT News | Darwin, Northern Territory, Australia | ntnews.com.au (http://www.ntnews.com.au/article/2010/11/03/191631_ntnews.html)

Counter to Mr Cahill's assertion that the response data is commercial-in-confidence, I would think that the public interest test would see the data as releasable under the NT Freedom of Information provisions.

Freedom of Information - Office of Information Comissioner Northern Territory (http://www.infocomm.nt.gov.au/foi/index.htm)

Would it not?

[FGD135]

Health Department systems performance director Robyn Cahill said it would be very unusual to have less than the contracted two fixed-wing aircraft and a helicopter operating at night.

Ha! Those of us that are close to Careflight know that in reality, it is quite common for there to be only one aircraft available during the night hours.

The service is unquestionably worse than that provided by Pearl Aviation. For only about 1 in 100 nights would Pearl have less than 2 fixed wing aircraft available during the night. For Careflight, it is about 1 in 3.

To me, the amazing thing about the poor service is that it has taken this long for it to make it into the media.

ABC report here, saying much the same as the NT news:

Medivac system putting lives at risk: doctor - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/11/03/3055839.htm)

[Barry Bernoulli]

I guess if NT News (or anyone else) are concerned with the public interest they may submit a Freedom of Information request to get the actual data and publish it for all to see, at which point some facts could be presented in this argument

[lurker999]

except they'd argue

"There are also cases in which there is a public interest-

in protecting the interests of individuals or private organisations (for example in protecting personal privacy or sensitive business information)"


So they'd just refuse, claiming commercial in confidence and we'll be none the wiser.

[betaman]

The Health Department's Robyn Cahill says the current evacuation arrangements are an interim measure while a new tender is sorted out.
"We will have had the opportunity to truly examine service demand and growth and that we would be in a position to actually deliver a service that meets that demand and growth in the Northern Territory."


Given the length of time that NTAMS was in operation one would think that NT Health would have a pretty good idea what the "service demand and growth" is by now......or am I just expecting too much.:hmm:

Has the wet season kicked in up there yet?:E

[FGD135]

Given the length of time that NTAMS was in operation one would think that NT Health would have a pretty good idea what the "service demand and growth" is by now....

Yes, and of course the contract specifications have already been written - and tendered on!

[maxgrad]

Spin can be placed on any information to hand, and not to hand. Essentially those that know and won't "spin" are not able. Those that can and do, will.:ugh::*

[Counter-rotation]

This whole "commercial in confidence" thing is starting to really sh!t me...

Got a good question for a politician (especially an incompetant politician)?

Want to shine some light on an issue, by asking for sensitive (sensitive why?) information?

My advice - don't waste your breath!! It will just be "commercial in confidence"...

[Where's that emoticon with the spew pouring out of it's gob gone!]

CR.

[Pindan warrior]

Don't despair...the current NT media discussions on whistle blowers might encourage some courageous souls to expose the situation. (are there any dmo's with balls left?)
Word is that CF have had a dreadful serviceability record (fixed and rotary), Gove and Katherine left without a service for long periods (days, I mean, not hours) putting extreme pressure on the road ambulance service and health workers across the Top End.
Word is also that whilst the department are saying that a decision will be announced before Christmas, they cannot afford any of the offers and as long as CF keep the media spotlight off the senior departmental heads until they figure out how to proceed, the current service will keep rolling on and on.......... until the next time some white person dies and the CF media spinners cannot contain it or there is a damming coroners court finding against the department for failing to oversight their contractor and protect the interests of remote Territorians.

[NTChicky]

I am no fan of CF but there was one very deep pothole out at Gove. The other operator could not deal with it but CF have now filled it in and smoothed it over. Productivity will probably rise due to it but Prune readers beware, this pothole types as much cr@p as he talks.

[Counter-rotation]

this pothole types as much cr@p as he talks

In whose opinion?

CR