Norfolk/thought Police

[Fantome]

OK, who blew it again?

[JMEN]

Norfolk seems to be a very naughty word...

Norfolk Norfolk Norfolk Norfolk Norfolk

I feel better now!
:ugh:

[Dogimed]

Wasn't me... I stated the rules of the thread...

What a faaaaaaarce....

(Wish I kept a copy of my last post...)

[Capt Fathom]

Norfolk Norfolk Nolfolk......


R_hlMK7tCks

Who threw that rock....?

[Horatio Leafblower]

I want to know what Tiddles and Tailwheel had for lunch. They never said :(

[frigatebird]

(this is not a post - I don't want to be accused of prodding or stirring up the Jonah's)

[Hot High Heavy]

Basil: Don't mention the war. I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it. So it's all forgotten now and let's hear no more about it. So that's two egg mayonnaise, a prawn Goebbels, a Herman Goering and four Colditz salads....no, wait a minute...I got confused because everyone keeps mentioning the war

[tail wheel]

The original Norfolk thread is HERE (http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-aviation-questions/400603-merged-norfolk-island-ditching.html). Feel free to go find your last post Dogimed.

Read the last two pages and it is obvious why I locked the thread. PPRuNe threads often have a "use by date" and that thread was rapidly heading South!

The only known, verifiable facts are:

a Westwind aircraft ditched off Norfolk Island; and
the ATSB have issued a Preliminary Report.


Aside from those two basic facts, many posts in the original thread were pure speculation; totally unrelated personal interjection; offensive and vexatious comment; wild speculation and unmitigated cr@p!

Until the ATSB releases a final, factual Report what else can there be to discuss? :confused:

[werbil]

That sounds like an invitation to me.:ok:

Hat, Coat, Door

[Dogimed]

Jesus...

Aside from those two basic facts, many posts in the original thread were pure speculation; totally unrelated personal interjection; offensive and vexatious comment; wild speculation and unmitigated cr@p!

I thought that was what Pprune used to advertise.....

Until the ATSB releases a final, factual Report what else can there be to discuss?

As I said before, people who want to know the details can go wait on the ATSB website.... From a commercial view, every thread that had No***lk in it has generated enourmous discussion and debate, how can that be bad for PPrune?


Stop trying to create a nanny state, D&G Was created for a reason, because it didnt fit with the regular pommy bastards..so let us be us and unlock the gate....


Dog....

(off to find his one decent post...)

By the way, what did you have for lunch? Horatio got spoilt for dinner..

[Dogimed]

And one other thing whilst I'm at it...

The discussion on good airmanship and proper planning is not utter speculation... what was generally derided, apart from his file photo was *How did a CAPTAIN get himself into that position. If people can't examine how a CAPTAIN could have made the COMMAND decision to end up with no other options, what else is there... the ATSB report will not allow junior CAPTAINS to understand SENIOR CAPTAINS opinion, those threads served a purpose and were not necessarily about how fast he was going when he hit, or whether the wheels were down, but how we could learn not to get in that position in the first place........

Dog

[tail wheel]

"How did a CAPTAIN get himself into that position."

Yes, indeed a very interesting question. In the normal course of events one presumes that no pilot would ever get himself into that position. Unfortunately there are no facts available at present upon which one could even speculate with any accuracy. Uninformed wild speculation helps no one!

I guess we won't know the answer until the ATSB issues a factual Report?

[GADRIVR]

.....and thats what I was saying in the first place!!! Geez....talk about shoot the messenger!:ugh:

[tipsy2]

How did a CAPTAIN get himself into that position.????

Back in 1970 or 71 I read something in a BOAC Aircrew Flight Safety Mag that has stuck with me ever since.

The Superior Pilot is one that uses his Superior judgement to avoid situatons that require the use of his Superior skills.

Its worked for me, too bad it is not taught anymore.

tipsy:yuk::yuk:furball:yuk:

[Dogimed]

Careful Tipsy, sounds like your slandering the pilot...


..ho hum..its just not that fun anymore...

Dog

[remoak]

Time to rename this forum Professional Pilots Verifiable Facts Only Network (or PPVFON)...

It's a RUMOUR network. Either change the name or get a sense of humour... :ugh:

[bushy]

"The freedom of the press still furnishes that check upon government that no constitution has ever been able to provide."
Chicago Tribune.

[Fantome]

Ruminating on this and reading again this site's TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF USE, it reads that we may enjoy the transmission and/or exchange of -

information, ideas, opinions, photographs, images, video, creative works or other information, messages, transmissions or material to us, the Site.

Obviously, despite the elaboration of PPRuNe, to subscribe you don't have to be a professional or be into rumour mongering. A sense of humour is optional. To be seriously unfunny is deplorable

[remoak]

Well, PPRuNe stopped being about anything remotely professional many, many years ago. When I first joined, back in the days when it was a text-based forum, it was almost always a professional interchange of info and ideas and was 90% relevant. These days, you have to sift through mountains of dross in the hope that you might stumble across something interesting. Back then, it was about professional pilots.These days, it is more about pax, spotters and flight sim pilots.

All of which is fine, as long as it doesn't get all anal and stupid... just because people choose to engage in speculation, which after all is the life-blood of any forum, the reason that big companies are willing to pay forum owners for their creations... because it DOES drive traffic to the site and DOES increase advertising revenues... :rolleyes::ugh:

Which is what PPRuNe is all about these days!

[tail wheel]

These days, you have to sift through mountains of dross in the hope that you might stumble across something interesting. Back then, it was about professional pilots.These days, it is more about pax, spotters and flight sim pilots.

Yes, and that is still the message from PPRuNe head office and many long time users! Many PPRuNe users today feel that there is a significant deficit of interesting, factual, quality information and professional debate, hidden in a mountain of dross and dribble. A number of the older users have simply lost interest and wandered off.

A decade ago our users knew how to hold a rational, professional debate with decorum and respect for the opinion and knowledge of other users. Today that is almost a lost art! :{

And if you think the rules have changed, you are not correct! I joined PPRuNe in the first 100 users and have applied the same Dunnunda forum rules for well over a decade. The difference is that a decade ago there was little need to intervene, which is not the case today.

Regrettably, the vast majority of us suffer due to the very small minority who can't help making fools of themselves!

[Fantome]

Mountains of dross? Here goes -

Contributions that fail to delight or inform are of little or no value or interest to the half discerning reader. Anyone not a hermit or a monk is everyday confronted with BLAH BLAH BLAH on a scale that would make his forefathers weep. Or throw up, faint or fit.

There is in Leunig's first Penguin collection, or perhaps the second, a cartoon of some dozen separate little figures holding forth. Some renowned, some infamous, some mundane. But all in common they are declaiming BLAH.
Ah that Michael, he does sail close to the smiting wind. One tiny figure is Moses delivering his sermon on the mount. No surprise, Pilot Officer Prune is overlooked.

Of course, always try, if you are going to quote from any published source, to make it as telling a one as you can. A bit of good old bias Australian won't hurt either. A random example. Where it fits in, search me -

Me, I'm the man that dug the Murray for Sturt to sail down,
I am the one that rode beside the man from Snowy River,
And I'm Ned Kelly's surviving brother (or did I marry his sister?
I forget which), and it was my thumbnail that wrote that Clancy
had gone a-droving, and when wood was scarce I set the grass on fire
and ran three miles to boil my billy, only to find
I'd left the tea and sugar back with my tucker-bag,
and it was me, and only me, that shot through with the padre's daughter,
shot through with her on the original Bondi tram.

Me, yesterday I was a rumour,
today I am a legend,
tomorrow, history.
If you'd like to know more of me
inquire at the pub at Tennant Creek
or at any drover's camp
or shearing-shed,
or shout any bloke in a bar a drink,
or yarn to any bloke asleep on any beach;
they'll tell you about me,
they'll tell you more than I know myself.


For anyone to kill me he'd have to kill
every single Australian,
every single one of them,
every single one.

Ian Mudie. (1911-1976)


Now, class, who'd like to consider a bit of Shelley, ODE TO THE WEST WIND. ? No James, that is not OWED TO THE WESTWIND, though in your case . . ..

[frigatebird]

Hey Fantome, you're starting to sound a bit like me.. You too weren't brought up on a desert planet (or a palace) in a galaxy far, far away ?
Have to control that side of me, depending on the company I keep..

[Dogimed]

Tailwheel,

10 years ago you could not boast of the membership numbers.. now you got em, live with it..

Many PPRuNe users today feel that there is a significant deficit of interesting, factual, quality information and professional debate, hidden in a mountain of dross and dribble.

You do realise that the word rumour is in your title??????

Based on our statistics, most of PPRuNe's readers are involved in the Airline industry. The remainder are either business/professionals or higher education students working to become professionals in the airline industry. Most of PPRuNe's active community are educated, well informed, well paid for their services, enjoying a comfortable lifestyle and of course, have a strong interest in the professional aviation community.

Thats certainly not the gist of what you have said below.. be careful should potential advertisers read your comments about us louts being good for nothing problems....


Either way, my original point being that if you continue to kill entertaining and popular threads, you wont have to worry about moderating as much in the future as you will lose your audience, and you can return to your 100 pilots all talking about the difficulties of CASA.


On another note, I saw an ad for Norfolk Island Freight on this page, by sea or air.... Pelair could compete by offering both in the one trip....


Dog....

[tail wheel]

You do realise that the word rumour is in your title??????

Yes indeed. There are rumours that have some modicum of rational credibility, there are also rumours which are blatant ludicrous cr@p; and there are a variety of rumour types in between.

Those rumours which are ludicrous cr@p and those falacious rumours intended to wind up our users will continue to be removed. This forum must retain some standard of ethics, credibility and integrity.

Ah yes, that old chestnut of diminishing membership and the predictions of doom and gloom from those other aviation forum PPRune look-a-likes if they could be........ :ugh: Some are simply a repository for disgruntled PPRuNe rejects; I suspect the standards of both forums are enhanced by their absence from PPRuNe and presence on the other forum! :E

Threads: 326,665, Posts: 4,907,258, Members: 287,553. PPRuNe Membership continues to grow ariound 10% per annum. Australian and New Zealand membership continues is growing at a higher rate. Dunnunda Forum is PPRuNe's third largest forum and accounts for around 13% of PPRuNe traffic.

I guess we're doing something right? :ok:

[Dogimed]

You missed my point, perhaps get your hand off it and read again..

I wasn't disputing your wonderful forum (There really is no where else to go) I was pointing out from a customer perspective how I feel and obviously others do as well... Moderators "Dont like it leave" philosophy will eventually see most valuable contributors leave, and you'll be left with non professionals and a very boring website.


Dog

[remoak]

One tiny figure is Moses delivering his sermon on the mount

So Moses is now deity? Interesting development...

Moderators "Dont like it leave" philosophy will eventually see most valuable contributors leave, and you'll be left with non professionals and a very boring website.

Well that was really Danny's philosophy from the very early days, and, when you think about it, the only realistic one to have when you consider some of the people you have to deal with on an open forum. Many, many people have predicted the demise of PPRuNe because their personal agendas weren't taken notice of, and guess what, it never happened...

Having said that, quality seems to have taken a back seat to the commercial imperative of boosting membership in order to have a wider audience for all the advertising (which I have switched off in my browser, thank God). So you may be at the helm of part of a forum, Tailwheel, but you have to wonder what the point is when you are basically presiding over acres of mindless chatter.

Me, I only come along these days on the off-chance of a good discussion or argument... my daily PPRuNE scans used to take me half an hour, these days it rarely takes more than two minutes.

A very great pity...

[frigatebird]

Fantome
(manutara)..??
don't get too many Valentine Day cards these days, even warped ones..and they don't get answered either.. THREE CEO's really pissed me off last year..
You have more style than some..
stay humble..

Was going to put this in its own thread, but they get ignored it seems, marching to a different drummer I suspect, so will 'bare my soul' here..

Three Ditchings

With the Norfolk thread a hot potato, this is a personal reminisce of colleagues, friends, and drinking mates who paid an ultimate price for their love of flying. They flew Islander, Bandeirante and Twin Otter on single pilot operations between islands in the countries of the South-west Pacific.

The first ditching, (but not the first friend lost in a light aircraft accident) was by someone we will call Mike. He was an experienced pilot when he joined the company I had been with for about 6 months. He had been flying in the Highlands of New Guinea, and had held an Instrument Rating, married , and with two small children, he enjoyed a beer at the Yacht Club after work, and got on with things without complaining. A scheduled flight to a couple of islands, one of which had an NDB which was unserviceable at the time, (pre GPS), on the Saturday, was deferred to the next day due weather, and he was the allocated pilot to do it. Sunday was clearer of cloud, but very hazy, with visibility down to a half-mile south of the coast, in the direction he was going in the Islander. The Islander, of which we had two at the time, was equipped for instrument flight, but not approved in its Ops Manual, as the company operated mainly under VFR on its route network. In fact at the time, we only had one pilot who was used to fly an IFR QueenAir on an International cross border flight to the New Hebrides, via Santa Cruz, who was required to keep a current rating. It also had a life jacket for each seats occupant, and a first aid kit as required by regulations.
That Sunday, I was also flying a series of local sightseeing flight for some Japanese in a Queenair, over old battlefields.
Mike fuelled for the round trip, and took off and flew to the first island, then across to the second island, then back to the first one again picking up passengers for the final return sector. He departed with every passenger seat filled, and with a baby nursed.
Listening on HF, I was following the progress of his flight, and heard him ask for the weather at destination. This was given by Flight Service, and I chipped in and gave my appreciation of the conditions north of the coast too, which were good, not much haze. He had encountered a thunderstorm, and after diverting around for a while on ded.reckoning elected to go back to the last departed aerodrome and have fuel brought down to him as there was none based down there. At the time, I remember thinking to myself, ‘ Make sure you find it’, but did not try to influence him to keep coming. He was the Captain of his aircraft, and as experienced (or more) than I was at the time. I finished my last flight on the Queenair, rang the Chief Pilot and was approved to take drum fuel down in the Baron. While loading the fuel, Flight Service advised that the Islander pilot had advised that he had been unable to find either island in the haze, which with half a mile visibility in that area meant he could have flown by it at a mile from the coast and never seen it, was trying again for the destination, and was preparing to ditch. His last radio transmission was that the engines were cutting out. The Chief Pilot was advised, and we organized a search in all available aircraft and carried liferafts to drop if possible. The Marine Section also started organizing surface vessels. We weren’t sure exactly where to look, but tried the most probable areas first. The weather then generally turned bad in the area for several days of the week long search, it was in the Convergence Zone, and the whitecaps made it difficult to spot something the size of a person in a lifejacket from a height of 500 to 1000 feet. Nothing was ever found. The depth of water in that trench area is 3,000 fathoms. The subsequent enquiry recommended that we not schedule flight to the area without a serviceable NDB, that the Government fix it, that we revise our Operations Manual to include extra procedures and better route training, plus other items that were complied with.

Many times since, I have asked myself why did he turn back to an isolated island and put himself in the position where he just ‘Had’ to find it. What caused him to think that the best course of action was to go back to the island he had left in the haze, but had since steered a zigzag course about avoiding weather to the point that he was unsure of a heading to adopt to make certain landfall. Had it been me, doing that flight, I feel sure that I would have kept coming, and taken my chances with my (then) training and experience to see me to destination, just avoiding the weather as best I could. But I can’t, and won’t, judge him, he was a good man, he has been judged already. But I have learnt, and I am sorry it had to be this way that I learnt.

‘Kieth’ was a pilot flying 185 and Islander on Bougainville when I first met him. We used to overnight at Kieta, and would have a beer with him(and his wife), at the end of the day. He had greater capacity for it than I had, so I had to be careful to be fit for the following days return when we got together in the bar. Later on he resigned, and came and joined our company, and lived next door in the compound. He flew Islanders, Baron, and Queenair, with us, but after a trip to the States where he met a friend at Oshkosh, and became an Honorary Colonel in the Confederate Air Force, he decided to try for a Green Card and work there. Got employed as a co-pilot on Shorts, and as he told me later ‘they are a bitch of a thing to shovel snow off in the winter’ ! Evidently there was some problem with the green card on the mainland, and the next time I bumped into him again (at Kieta) he was in a Turbine Commander 690 (?) flying fish spotting, and other communications duties no doubt, for a tuna fishing company based in Guam, with rights to operate in PNG waters. Then I lost track of him until I heard of the ditching.

Seems he liked to stay in the tropics, and with his local knowledge of PNG, he had been hired by Talair and given a Bandeirante command. On a rainy day when jets were overrunning runways, his aircraft flew into the sea, several people survived, many didn’t, and he was one of the ones who didn’t. A good bloke , but I won’t judge him on his operations. There would be a comprehensive report somewhere by experts whose job it is to do that, as is required. Hopefully lessons have been learned in PNG from it. I wasn’t there, not even in the country, I don’t know all the circumstances, but a retractable undercarriage aircraft ditching with the wheels up should be more survivable than fixed undercarriage types, given similar other circumstances.

When I first met ‘Stefan’ we were both flying Twin Otters from Port Vila. A friendly and popular Frenchman, he had joined the company before I had, so was experienced on single pilot local day operations to all the strips, and night operations between Santo and Vila. After a while, with the limited opportunities locally for advancement, he resigned and went back to France. I got a card from him from the Seychelles, saying he had a job that was pretty relaxing, only flying half days, good runways and lots of Europeans to carry around. Then I got a letter saying he had heard about the VNPF problems and was glad that he had got his money out. Said his present job was a big change from when he used to work long days, and was starting to get bored with aviation and thinking about quitting as this career is too hard and the future never guaranteed, so it would be wise for him to try and set up a business somewhere with his father and family. His words ‘the aviation industry is very selfish and hard with its employees and it (seems) that hopes are not always there at the end”. Said he had moved to get a bit of a change after 6 years in Vila. “I am not disappointed nor absolutely happy, but it is a change, the place is beautiful and peaceful, seats in the 767’s are for locals, (? ) so I don’t really hope anything at the moment”. “Hope to hear from you soon.”

I transferred off the Twin Otters, and after a couple of years on another type, I too departed Port Vila. Then one day I read there had been a Twin Otter ditching into the sea while conducting a night instrument approach at Vila. Several people including the pilot were lost, while some swam to a headland and were saved. “Stefan” was the pilot. It transpired that he had gone back to working there, for whatever reason, -was conducting a night sector from Santo to Vila, was doing the instrument letdown in bad weather, and flew into the sea.

At that time, the VOR at Vila was located on a headland some miles from the runway, but on a centerline. At night in fine weather coming from Santo, you tracked to the VOR and joined final for a night visual approach. However because of some high ground in the area, and to the north of the field, at night in weather, you tracked to the VOR, then south outbound descending for a DME/Time to an altitude, then turned left back north descending towards a locator on the coast to the minima. The Missed Approach Point was a radial or bearing BEFORE the locator was reached, with a right climbing turn taking you south again over the bay. If visual in the strong winds and driving rain (Vanuatu is the crossroads for cyclones in the South-West Pacific), you continued to the locator on the coast where you should at least see the first strobe light of the approach path. Then you flew to the next one, and so on round the 90 degree bend to line up on the runway, and hopefully the runway lights would become visual during the turn so you could get the right perspective for the flare….

Many pilots have done it safely in bad conditions in the past, and will continue to do it safely with passengers in the future. “Stefan” had his hands full because of circumstances we don’t know about, on that night, but I hope I have learnt something again from remembering my old colleagues and friends, .. and I hope you have too..


Another friend and colleague, with whom I have shared beers with, is the pilot of the Islander in Bonaire. The only circumstances of that accident , I know of so far, are what I have read here in a thread on PPRUNE. I for one am appreciative, some facts and reasoned discussion are provided here.

[Fantome]

Fantome
(manutara)..??


The story of the Catalinas that bore the name 'Frigate Bird' or from Chile that
were named after the same bird, 'Manutara', is here -


http://www.catalinaflying.org.au/documents/History%20of%20VH-CAT.pdf

So Catalina Flying Memoral's actual Cat,named 'Manutara 11', presently at Bankstown and destined for Rathmines on Lake Macquarie, has a strong connection with PG Taylor's Cat, 'Frigate Bird 11' hanging today in the Powerhouse Museum in Sydney.

A gross digression, but what category of CEO distressed you last year?

CEO Chief Entertainment Officer

CEO Community Enforcement Officer


Maybe mr remoak, (below), might care to revise his assessment of what constitutes an objectionable percentage. Or hire his own hall.

[remoak]

There you go - a perfect example of a post that is 95% dross! :ok:

[frigatebird]

Thank you for the title and the link. I'm honoured.
In a part of the world I know well, they are called Belama.

'PG Taylor with so many ocean crossings under his belt had the greatest respect for the Frigate birds, which inhabited the vast oceans of the world forever skimming the wave tops and seemingly never to rest.'

As do I, hence the chosen name - and because I have the greatest respect for Navigators, of human and other species, that venture sucessfully into, or live in, that vast area we call 'The Pacific'.

Used to pop out of a cloud buildup, and suddenly the windscreen would be full of frigatebirds with their long wings all bent back, diving to get out of my way. They had been surfing the upcurrents along the side of the buildup while I was coming through.



Actually, a couple of the three were also the owners, and the other acted as if he did, or was going to, too. Some just don't like what I feel is my duty to tell them..

[frigatebird]

There you go - one mans 95% dross is.....
show us your 5 % precious metal
show us any mettle..

[remoak]

And this from someone who styles themselves as a bird...

But anyway...

Dross - Worthless, commonplace, or trivial matter

Well I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder, but I will quite happily pit my posts against yours for value on the dross-o-meter...

At least you aren't quite as "out there" as your buddy fantome...

Could this finally be the beginning of a decent argument...??? :=

[Fantome]

Out-there's OK. Lot's of fresh air. Wouldn't want to ask what kind he's breathing. Spend a lot of time there, one way or another. Old mate D Ross,
he calls by to bat the breeze. Knows when to give over. Good attitude.
Gives a good rendering of "F. 'em all, F. 'em all. The long the short and the tall." Jamesons, if you've got one.

[remoak]

See, right there you expose yourself. Jamesons? Only an uncivilised Aussie... I mean, a French-owned Irish whiskey. Come on. Get civilised and try a good Laphroaig...

(Dross factor - very high)

[Dogimed]

Ok, back to running the gauntlet of Pprune..


Do you think the wheels are down and locked, if so, can you lock wheels without hydraulic pressure?

Were they down when hitting the water (causing fuselage to break due to massive drag on initial hit,) or did they float down and 'lock'? once under water?

Did the fuselage break when it hit the dirt, or on its way down, why would it break on its way down?

I'm asking here because ATSB don't have a forum, and I'm old enough and smart enough to wade through the responses on their own merits, laugh and enjoy the inane ones and disregard the insignificant ones...

Hey Tailwheel, you know Myspace 'used' to be 'THE' social website... not anymore... resting, laurels, arrogance maybe, but now its facebook...and maybe even Twitter, although facebook evolves constantly and listenes to its subscribers....

Dog

[frigatebird]

remoak
You actually seek argument, for arguments sake..? so very dross..
so very superior..
Go and start a 'civilised' English or American war with someone else, if you wish to empire build.. :yuk: :ugh:



spoilt kids, twits and dizzys.. thats me out..

[remoak]

No, not argument for argument's sake. Argument for entertainment, and the remote possibility of an enlightened debate. Unlikely with a bunch of ozmates, but you never know... :ugh:

Nothing to do with superiority or empire building (I mean how the hell do you get "empire building" from a desire to have a bit of fun arguing???)

Of course if you want to see foolish and pointless arguing, check out your parliament...

Is this the right room for an argument? I've told you once... :}

[ozbiggles]

The monument you four have built to stupidity continues to grow I see.
The funny thing is, you don't even know what is going on do you?
give em enough rope.....

[Fantome]

Monument? Get off the grass, Biggles. Check fly. **** oh dear, fly's open.