Is there a career now as a pilot

[jimbuckleybarrett]

Hi

My son is looking to become a pilot once he is finished with school.

I have a few questions and would appreciate help,

1. Do you think in 3 years when he is done the course there will be a career for him? The course includes Business Study degree.

2. Has anyone heard of JAA Pilot Flight Training - Pilot Training College Ireland - professional pilot courses honours BSc degree level (http://www.pilottraining.ie/)?

3. Can anyone recommend schools for us?

This is extremely serious decision and I would appreciate any advise. We can't afford for him to do this and not get a job at the end of it.

Thanks.
Jim

[average bloke]

There is still a career available in aviation, but there are NEVER any guarantees. No matter what any school tells you, it is often down to luck as much as anything as to whether you get a job. There are so many people wanting to get into the industry, and many with lots of money to throw at the problem.

If you want a guaranteed job for your son, then this is not the path to tread.

Also, how serious is he? If he wants it badly enough then surely he will work for it, and save up the money by working in another sector first. Does he even have a PPL yet? Has he tried any gliding? There are many of us out there who have taken what seems a longer route to the cockpit, but we have done it without parental handouts or large amounts of debt. Too many young kids seem to think it is OK to take funds out of the bank of mum and dad.

Please, please do not pay for young Johnny to go to an overpriced training school, promising soup to nuts training, and some kind of 'airline placement' at the end of the course.

[dontpressthat]

John Smith...

Let me know when you go and where you go from and I'll have a CV in the post sharpish..:}

[student88]

John Smith - horses for courses. Just because you don't like it it doesn't mean someone else will dislike it too. Maybe you just chose the wrong profession.

Does your son want to go to University? Bearing in mind that university applications are up 22% this year and fees are destined to rise, maybe you would want to minimise your debt if he is 100% locked onto flying for a living.

If that is the case, make sure he gets his A Levels. At 16-18 you're best off in the security of college/6th form.

Suggest to him that he works for a few years before starting training, no one needs to start at the age of 18. Don't let him sign up to debt, don't go integrated. You can easily do your training in credit if you really plan well.

Yes, flying isn't what it used to be. However he was never there to see what it was like before so he won't feel like he's missed out.

Good luck,

[smo-kin-hole]

Does he really love airplanes and flying, or does he just want the uniform? Or the glamour? (Gee, I'm still looking for that)

Its a simple fact that to be a pilot is much like being in the entertainment industry. You have to want it awfully bad, keep your nose clean, and, yes, actually have some talent. The personal price is quite high. There are few really great gigs.

I like my job and can't really see doing anything else. But that's my deal.

Good luck (and stay out of debt):)

[A330ETOPS]

Hi Jim,

I've had my frozen ATPL for 2 years now and life has been a constant struggle to repay my debt and try prevent my parents from losing their house. I went through training thinking "things'll be different when i qualify. there'll be jobs going", well i was wrong! I've been all over the world looking for work but have had no luck. Unless you're prepared to pay an additional £40k for a rating and pay to fly, there's not really much else out there unless you're in the right place at the right time. I'm working 7 days & nights a week now flat out in 2 different jobs trying to earn the £1800 a month i need to pay the 4 banks i took loans out with, so just think about it carefully before splashing out on a course with no guarantees. All the best to your son.


Rob

[lpokijuhyt]

Jim: are you starting to notice a trend? :E

[wangus]

Hi Jim,
I completely echo the sentiments of A330ETOPS. I too have been qualified 2 years, with CPL/IR/MCC. Passed everything first series, with high marks in theory. Numerous "contacts" in the industry. Revalidated my IR last year for a further £600, and now need to revalidate it, at £1000-1500. NOT ONE SINGLE INTERVIEW YET. That is the reality for an awful lot of us. I think what else I could have done with the £40,000-£50000 and it makes me feel ill. Unfortunately, for a high percentage of us, that is the reality of our delusion that we will become airline pilots. Yes, if there are ENDLESS funds, you may have a different experience buying a job for you son, but for many of us that simply isn't an option.
The wisest person on this website is WWW, Wee Weasley Welshman. He knows his stuff. I wish I had heeded his warnings. All his predictions are more or less spot on. He will tell you the same thing.

You will also note there is some real nastiness in some of these debates. People will be attacked for politely expressing their view, by a faceless person hiding behind anonimity. It is another unfortunate side of the industry, and rather juvenile.

Just be under no illusion, flight schools are in a fierce market, and are not training people out of the goodness of their hearts. They will tell you exactly what you want to hear.:ugh:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

wangus, it is with real genuine regret that I find myself vindicated and in the right. I'm sorry for you if you've put yourself between a rock and hard place by means of flying training. I've seen it so often over such a long period that I'm very familiar with your plight. Its often a lose-lose situation that blights peoples entire lives. Its heavy stuff and mostly for that reason I Moderate this forum - it matters. I hope you can hang on in there and make it in the end.

In the meantime I'll say something that's been said a thousand times before here but is still key:

Timing Is Everything In This Industry.


Now is a crap time. Hopefully in three years time it will be possible to make another assessment and conclude it is an OK time to start training. Since early 2007, right up to now, its been a crap time to start training. Nothing is going to change. Airlines haven't finished shrinking. The recession isn't over. What we have now is the public sector job losses, the tax rises and the further contraction of demand for air travel in the UK and Northern Europe.

Wait.

When times are good, its still difficult to get work, but it can be sweet. 2005 was the Prime Time to train and jobs were falling like leaves from the trees (almost).

Timing.


Always timing.


WWW

[The Old Fat One]

know of a lot of people who will, in the next few months, be forced into bankruptcy. Luckily, these people all have unsecured loans, so the family home isn't on the line, but that is the only saving grace.

JS,

Either you've used the wrong term, or the people you speak of have gotten terrible advice and are in for a hell of a shock. When you go bankrupt in the UK - irrespective of reason - you lose all your tangible assets, including your home. End of story.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

No, what he means is that loads of CTC cadets and the like all were able to borrow £70k in loans despite being 21 and owning no house or any other collateral.

Once the credit crunch hit HSBC dropped out of that particular market and their replacement BBVA will only loan when there is something or someone of value underwriting the loan. Often Mum, Dad and the family home.


As I was talking about in 2007 - bankruptcy is the best option for those with massive unsecured loans and few commitments. Its over within 2 years and carries no stigma these days. For those who signed more recently on secured terms, well, the get-out-of-jail-card ain't so attractive.

Some FTO's and Banks are very very keen for Wannabes on unsecured loans NOT to go bankrupt and walk away from their £80k+ debt. For them its massively exciting that a couple of airlines are offering employment on rubbish terms. It means a Bankruptcy Court Judge can't be told - I can find no paid employment in my field. Something he needs to satisfy himself is true before extending the protection of his Court...

Wannabes are being screwed by hard hard men at both ends.

Its always the same.


WWW

[v6g]

Jim - I recommend taking my approach - getting a proper career in a proper industry and keeping flying as a hobby. I did the CPL & instructor rating as a hobby all the while having a well-paid job in another field.

This way I have both a great career and a great hobby.

Most professional pilots I know have neither.

As for what the future holds for aviation - who knows. But the trend of declining terms and conditions has been downward for decades and I can't see anything that will make that change - which isn't a bad thing if you have a proper career elsewhere as it means you can fly to holiday destinations very cheaply.

The real problem is that air-travel is now a mature marketplace. When even the average oik can afford a weekend in Rome, there's no more room left for growth (except for China & India - which is great for Chinese and Indian pilots).

Up till now airlines could increase profits by increasing bums-on-seats, now the only place left to increase profits is by decreasing costs. Notice how airline managers keep talking about "savings" not "growth". That's the only way they have left to increase shareholder value.

You can't grow a career practising skills that others are prepared to do for free.

And that's before we start thinking about Peak Oil or unmanned aircraft.

[The Old Fat One]

Roger that. I get what you mean by "family" home. Any parent (and I am one) who has signed up the family home as collateral against a loan for pilot training for their kiddy needs to watch a few Dr Phil videos.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

My comment about banks being keen to avoid cadets going bankrupt was not meant to suggest that they weren't pressing hard for repayments. Rather they were keen for job offers to be put in place, on crap crap terms, which would mean that refusal to take said job on crap crap terms means you can't go bankrupt.

People, more cynical than I, would believe that the rock and the hard place got together and persuaded the airlines to provide an escape route (of jobs on ****e terms and pay) which would avoid Wannabe going to the Bankruptcy Court and sticking two fingers up and walking away with £80k worth of training and licenses which are worth nothing to the Baliffs...

Or I may be wrong.


WWW

[Denti]

As a pilot it is a question we often get from others if it is still viable to enter the industry. Over here there is basicly one answer to it: try to get into a sponsored cadet scheme with a job guarantee (here that would be Lufthansa, probably Swiss) or one with half a job after the training (over here Air Berlin). If you fail the entry tests to both stop trying and get a real job. With well over a thousand pilots fresh out of school looking for a job plus several hundred very experienced pilots in a job market that is only around 10.000 jobs strong in germany the risk is way too high that someone doing his frozen atpl will not be able to land a flying job that will allow him to pay back the education cost and earn a living, to get a return on investment is pretty much impossible in most cases. The grass is not really greener somewhere else, in fact it is probably even worse when i consider the many pay to fly schemes popping up everywhere (not here, yet).

In short: able to get into a sponsored cadet scheme: go for it, usually the job afterwards is somewhat well payed too. Not able to get in? Try another profession.

[student88]

john_smith: Just to say I did read your post carefully. Just when you say things like "embarking on this career path the worst decision and biggest mistake I have ever made in my life" and "I will be getting out of aviation as soon as I possibly can" - you tend to think that the author is seriously disliking their profession.

Maybe if you had "bothered" to mentioned you enjoyed the job.. :p

I hope you find something a bit more suitable soon.

With regards to the loans, at what point do the banks review the contingency plan on the formal business plan. Probably something along the lines of agreeing that Mr Bloggs would work every shift under the sun in Sainsbury's to make a contribution to the repayments? Wouldn't this give the leverage the banks need to prevent it going to the courts?

As lucky as they are to have the chance of going bankrupt, part of me can't help but think that they should pay for their ignorance some way or another.

Bring back the self improver route, that'll separate the men from the boys.

S88

[mavisbacon]

When I started flying 20 something years ago there was no internet, getting the 'real story' was rather difficult. Agree 100% with John Smith, this career should carry some sort of health/wealth warning ! (bit like smoking). Given half a chance I would be out of it as well, and just like JB I enjoy the job ! WWW as ever offers wise words...............if only people would listen.

[PCA20]

Hehe, this is a lil bit hillarious. I mean, its ok if you want to be sure that your son will have a good life and a sure way to be a good man but i think he need to decide what he want to make with his life. I mean if he like aviation its more than ok to support him(include financiar part). If he want to be a driver( support him). You know what i mean, right? Good, now lets talk about this. Man, aviation is an expensive thing, and think how many people they definetly HOPE that your son will not make this, maybe from bad attitude, maybe they are jealous, and things like this, ok? So what we are talking about here? Uhm, about aviation, well yeah, there are some people who make this just for money( TRUST ME, there are a lot of this kind of this people) and they are very bad, becouse they don't make this with passion, with love, with that thing you need to have it in aviation to be good. When i was for the first time in a plane, i was sure about that is what i want to do, i was thinking about nothing else, just aviation. So, if your son think about this, the same as me or as many pilots who make this with passion trust me, is VERY VERY good if you can support him. I repeat my self, let him decide what he want to make . About the guaranty, well this is a lil bit complicated, nobody can guaranty that your son will have a job after he finish the school, i mean you/he cannot be sure that he will get a job quickly. But this is the risk right ? :)
ps: Can you see how smo-kin-hole talk about his job? That is exactly what i'm talking about.

Good luck

[flyprototype]

he will probably get a job, where he has to pay to work.
He will be probably get out of job, where he will have to pay to get a job again!

how much he can make?:" get out of here, people fly for free these days!!!"

[mutt]

there are some people who make this just for money( TRUST ME, there are a lot of this kind of this people) and they are very bad Actually i see it the other way, its a pity that more people didnt just care about the money rather than passion, with love, that way the terms and conditions might have stayed reasonable!

have it in aviation to be good Total garbage!

Its not about passion, its not about love, its about quality of life, pure and simple!

Mutt

[potkettleblack]

Amen to that. The sad thing is most wannabes forget that it is just a job at the end of the day. After a few years of early morning starts wandering from a distant airport carpark in torrential rain on yet another weekend the glamour (if there ever was any) has certainly run out. On that long walk into flight ops you can remind yourself of the long time to command, the companys new policy to recruit lower paid pilots into overseas bases that will now fly in and do your work and its reduction in fleet size and all the knock on effects that will have onto your career.

But hey why listen to us when you can go and blow 100k on an integrated course, pay another 30k to Michael O'Leary and then look forward to lots of unpaid leave once your deemed to expensive to fly. But never fear there will be command opportunities should you so wish to upsticks and move to whichever new base he requires cheap labour for. Sealed bids into a box please - just name your price.

[Rj111]

The hardly seems any point now. Pay a lot of money to get a badly (or negatively) paid job.

I often wonder, with all these terrible contracts airlines offer what type of people this job actually attracts. Having no self-respect seems must be one of the biggest peronsality traits now.

I love flying but i'm not going prepared to be a slave.

[Boing7117]

jimbuckleybarrett - if your son is really that keen on becoming a pilot when he leaves school, then really, we should be seeing him on here, asking the same questions you're asking.

I'm assuming he's around 14/15/16 years old? If he's that keen on getting into aviation I'd recommend he considers it as a second career rather than his first. Leave school, go to college, get some A-Levels, get a job or go to university (or do both).

In 8-10 years time he'll have developed a wealth of understanding about the pilot training situation and the aviation industry. He'll appreciate what's expected of him, what it's going to cost and his realistic chances of securing employment once he's completed his training. He'll have several years of solid "life" experience under his belt, perhaps maybe even a degree to go with it.

I can only reflect on my experience, but jumping into flight training at 24 after a decent education and a few years of working put me in a good position to deal with, and complete to a good standard, my course of flight training.

I was fortunate to secure a job too, but I certainly didn't just walk into it! Looking back, just like WWW said, timing was everything. I was very very lucky to get a job. Had my flight training been delayed a week longer, I can guarantee I would have missed my opportunity.

[jez d]

Jim, as others have commented on here timing is key to securing a job as a low hours pilot and no one can predict when the next upturn in recruitment will occur.

However, NOW is the time to apply for the JN Somers ATPL scholarship, as it is likely that this year's scholarship could be the last.

The JN Somers scholarship is the UK's only indpendent, fully-funded ATPL scholarship and I find it extraordinary that so few individuals apply each year, often as few as 100.

It isn't easy to win, but it would be foolish in the extreme, IMHO, not to apply for a scholarship that is worth in excess of £80,000.

The Guild of Air Pilots and Navigators (GAPAN) administer the scholarship: www.gapan.org (http://www.gapan.org)

Alternatively, your son could look at the modular training route, and again GAPAN offer a number of scholarships from PPL upwards. They're not the only ones either. Have a look on the Air League's website as well: www.airleague.co.uk (http://www.airleague.co.uk)


Regards, jez

[Groundloop]

To the posters on here talking about A-levels and increased applications to university - didn't you notice that Jim is Irish (hence probably the interest in PTC and Waterford College)? Before giving advice take a little time to look at the details of the original poster. This happens so many times on PPRuNe with people firing off opinions which are completely irrelevant to the situation of the poster. It can end up confusing the questioner instead of helping them!

[flyprototype]

answer to my questions

how many pilots have no jobs?

problem solved...don't become a pilot!

career? it's not a career anymore, since P2F is now here...

since anyone can sit his ass on an airbus after paying 100k, who will employ and pay you to fly?

you have to be a total retard to go in a flight training!

[Piltdown Man]

Jim - It's a damn good question. I'll give you the simplest answer I can. No, it's not a good idea for your son to fly for a living. There is absolutely no guarantee of a job. The only certainty is that you'll be forever paying for one course after another and that your son will not be receiving an income for three years or so. And you'll be down at least €100,000 and your son may be unemployable.

Join the airforce and get the government to pay would be a wiser idea or spending the money on a house so he doesn't have to have such a large salary to live might be even better. Or do a law degree, become a plumber, an architect - anything but flying. The reason I'm so negative is that the job market is flooded with idiots who will pay for a job and work for nothing. Not until the market has expanded to the point where we have run out of cretins will terms and conditions improve to the point where a flying career becomes viable again.

So what to do? If flying is that important to your son, trade flying lessons or gliding instruction (I'd suggest the latter) for scholastic study performance. Encourage him to get a worthwhile university degree and become employable in another activity. Then he'll be in a position to pay for his own flying training and if he makes it, he'll be a better person to be with, more employable by an airline and if that doesn't work out, well there will be in aviation terms, an Alternate.

PM

[High-higher]

If he really loves it, do it.

Don't listen to the negativity here, most the posters are basing their opinions purely on the UK, which admittedly is in a bad way, but there are other places in the world to go if he really wants it, but it wont be easy.

And if he's out of training in say 5 years, there's no guarantee there'll be tons of jobs, but there will definitely be more than there is now.

[ei-flyer]

Encourage him to get a worthwhile university degree and become employable in another activity. Then he'll be in a position to pay for his own flying training

Not always a viable option for some people.

University and flight training? That's got to be racking up the sterling!

It's a good idea if you can afford it, but personally I wouldn't want to be studying/training towards the ATPLs etc with the additional stress of a student loan hanging over my head. Of course you could wait until you've saved up the money from working in your university graduate job, paid off said loan and go from there, but it's likely by this point age is starting to show a wry smile.

There's no way I'm saying age is not on your side in your late twenties/thirties! What I'm saying is that for somebody with the dream to fly from an early age, I believe it's possible to break into this industry a lot younger than that.

[High-higher]

Well you see I'm filthy rich, so I get to do my hobby as a career and don't give a stuff about my wage or my conditions.....win win situation ! :}