Oh CASA, you.....

[girl with a stick]

.....are frightfully inconsistent.

This morning I arrive at the ASL centre in Bankstown, head full of Loading System Echo, ready to sit CPL Performance.

It turns out I am unable to sit the exam. Not because I don't have any picture ID and not because I don't have my PPL. Nope. It's because I don't have my logbook. My logbook! The one that lives at the flying school, because it's a requirement, whilst in training, that the document remains at there. Now, it states clearly on the CASA website, as well as on the ASL site, that a logbook must be shown at the exams, which is why I've taken mine to the last four. Bar the first one, I've never been asked to show it. On the topic, the website states:
Please note: CASA has screened your request to ensure you are permitted to sit the requested subject.
Taking them at their word, I assumed whatever CASA were looking for in the logbook had been noted and recorded. Alas, no!

A call to CASA revealed one's logbook must be sighted for proof of a BAK pass. Apparently,way back in 1990, some rogues were audacious enough to attempt a CPL exam without having passed the BAK (surely a BAK would be a barefoot walk over the sand after any CPL subject?). To CASA holding a PPL is not proof undeniable of having passed a BAK - PPL tests are often sat at flight schools, not under the watchful and expensive eye of and ASL examiner. Quite why CASA are worried that someone may wander in off the streets and PAY to sit an exam is beyond me.


When I asked why I had not had to show my logbook in the past (barring the first exam) I was told that only for certain exams required the logbook to be shown. Which exams? They couldn't actually tell me. But, do I have the right to know? Yes, apparently I do. In fact am still waiting for someone from CASA to return my call. In the meantime, six of my class mates sat the same exam in Queensland this morning and not one of them was asked to show a logbook.

Why not be consistent, and ask for the logbook at all of the exams, or perhaps just the first one (assuming the fact that I have passed BAK has been recorded)?

The long and the short: if you're sitting a CPL exam, make sure you have your logbook, otherwise you stand to lose $108, half a day on the telephone to find out why, and another week of sleep, broken by performance anxiety.

[j3pipercub]

Ah yes, I did the very same thing, you will find however, it is in the fineprint in the exam booking sheets... makes you feel a bit silly.

[VH-XXX]

They couldn't actually tell me.

Don't worry, it's the trend there.

They can't tell me at present if someone can learn to fly in an experimental aircraft. It requires a dozen emails and a legal department enquiry even though it's perfectly clear in the regulations!

[Angle of Attack]

Hey Girl with a stick,

Your preaching to the converted here! :ok:
Of course they need to see your logbook! It's not as if they can actually check their computer to see which exams you have passed! lol!

The whole CASA organisation could go into a lion den in a zoo and even the damn lions would not be able to eat them as there is too much red tape to chew through!

And as for a $25 license re-print! Do not even get me started with these monkey's! Cost recovery my foot, let me print the damn PDF you fools!
:ugh:

Rant over! well now I have to go and fill in the form for my medical issue, hmm, where is my credit card?

lol

[Unregistered User]

Ohh poo.........

And I thought the original poster wanted us to fill in the blanks :}

[PLovett]

even though it's perfectly clear in the regulations!

Sir, stop taking whatever it is that you are on immediately. No CASA regulation is ever perfectly clear. :=

The inconsistencies and absurdities of the examination system are reaching untold heights. However, it reminds me of the old saying that to err is human but to really foul things up you need a computer. Then in walks ASL. :ugh:

[newcomer]

Angle of attack, you really shouldnt complain about a $25 charge for a reprint fee when it is costing me £60 so over $120 just for the UK CAA to release my type rating to CASA.

Some of the other stupidly high charges

ATPL issue £231 about $500, CPL test fee £591 and again for you CIR.

$25 is nothing, one of the reasons Im coming back home,

Cya later, Campaign Against Aviation or is it Cash Always Accepted.

[Howard Hughes]

So glad that I am done with exams, unless of course they introduce the Master ATPL!:E

[Jabawocky]

and another week of sleep, broken by performance anxiety.

Its usually us men folk who worry about that! :E

You should try booking something online with ASL, and they can't identify you as they do not have your ARN number. You phone up and give them your name and ARN....Bingo they can identify you :ugh:. Now why on earth they do not have an application written to link the manual acess to the CASA database (which they have access to) to automatically do what the girl on the phone did in 10 seconds or less is beyond me.:rolleyes::ugh:. When I suggested it could be done....I copped an earfull of garbage :hmm: little did they know one of my employees could probably write the code in 30 minutes ;).

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it enjoy the view.

Then to make matters worse as I was now not at home near a PC or internet, they could not take a booking and payment over the phone...........

I am sure others have war stories, but it is really too hard!

[dogcharlietree]

Ok Guys. To prepare for your life ahead with "fort fumble" I suggest you buy a copy of the TV series "Yes, Minister". That will go a little way in showing you what you have ahead of you. :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:
Thankfully, I've passed through all that and now in retirement :ok:

[Zoomy]

unless of course they introduce the Master ATPL

:D
HH, don't give them ideas. They are probably in process on working it now.

ATPL for < 40000kg
Master ATPL < 70000Kg
GURU ATPL for every thing including space shuttle.

[Atlas Shrugged]

The one that lives at the flying school, because it's a requirement, whilst in training, that the document remains at there.

Who's requirement?

My logbook is just that, MY LOGBOOK and as far as I was concerned when I was learning to fly, it came and went with me.

[VH-XXX]

I've never really understood the logbook mentality in the flying school. It simply implies that the school doesn't trust the students that pay it their hard-earned cash. (unless there is a regulatory requirement that I am unaware of)

[Brian Abraham]

Dear Prooners,

Please forgive our inability to give due attention to your requests, but the staff are currently engaged in proof reading the 2011 calendar.

Yours Sincerely,

CASA

[Blogsey]

You knew the rule, didn't follow it, and are surprised to be caught out?
Would that be like doing 100km/h in a 60 zone, then complaining to the copper when your caught, that it's ridiculous because you were never caught in the past? :ugh:
Don't blame CASA.

[Whiskery]

Hey Brian A, that's a classic post ! :D

[girl with a stick]

Yeps, I knew the rule.

That's not debatable. My point is not to blame CASA for a rule which I think is absurd, or I would have hung up the headset years ago.

I wrote the thread to:

a) Alert others, in case, like me they become complacent in carrying their logbooks.

b) To have a bit of a whinge. I got stung for $108. It may well be my fault, but that doesn't take the sting away.

I'm sitting the exam tomorrow and I'll be wearing the sodding logbook around my neck.

Cheers,

GWAS

[VH-XXX]

Blogsey = the voice of reason

[MyNameIsIs]

Angle of attack, you really shouldnt complain about a $25 charge for a reprint fee when it is costing me £60 so over $120 just for the UK CAA to release my type rating to CASA.


Yeah but if you want to see your £60 rating on your CASA license, don't forget to pay CASA the $25 reprint fee!

[Jazzy78910]

I believe there is a requirement for Flight Schools to have their student's log books on site (whilst they're undertaking a training course) for CASA audit reasons.

I'm surprised CASA hasn't implemented a form and fee to allow the lawful removal of your log book from the Flight School for the day of the test... :suspect:

[Howard Hughes]

but the staff are currently engaged in proof reading the 2011 calendar.
:D
Classic Mr Abraham!:ok:

Now repeat after me, thirty days hath September, April, June...;)

[benharris10]

Blogsey

You knew the rule, didn't follow it, and are surprised to be caught out?
Would that be like doing 100km/h in a 60 zone, then complaining to the copper when your caught, that it's ridiculous because you were never caught in the past? :ugh:
Don't blame CASA. Would you agree that it is a bit of a ridiculous system though? I'm sure that there is a logic behind it, but for the life of me can't work out what it might be. After passing your GFPT flight test (for which you must have also passed BAK) Casa receives a copy of all of your paperwork. Surely this would be able to be recorded on their system somewhere and then passed to ASL, really, it wouldn't be that difficult. Also, if I am sitting 7 CPL subjects with ASL, and have unique details with them which I use to book my exams, I should only need to show proof of passing BAK once, not each time that I go to sit a new exam. I personally have not been asked to show my logbook once, and everytime I go to the ASL exam centre I sneak a glance at the sheet with my name on it and which says "BAK examanation pass required" (or something along those lines) and four times so far it has said no. Not sure why I don't have to show it.

Girl with a stick says she showed her logbook at the first exam,.... hopefully in that time CASA or her flying school hasn't rechecked her BAK exam and magically found that she actually failed. Whilst it's a rule, there has to be a better way that it can be done.

[Baldnfat]

IMHO the whole exam system needs a complete makeover.

In 2004 I trundled off to Moorabin to do the Irex as the Launceston ASL centre was booked solid for months and I was already into my IF flight training so I needed to get busy. I had to stay in a motel the night before due to the early start time and when I was 70 % through the exam I used the scroll function on the mouse which was a no no as the whole exam process locked up for 20 minutes (some sort of known software glitch). By the time it got going again I only had around 30 minutes to finish. The KDR on the failure (by a 3 lousy percent) indicated that I had let myself down on the areas of the syllabus that were tested in that final part of the exam. GRRRR!

A couple of weeks later I learned that it was possible to get a sit in Launy as several candidates that were studying at the time were in the habit of booking sitting times then cancelling at the eleventh hour due to a lack of prep or whatever. The scroll mouse/software problem was still happening but this time I was informed of it prior to starting the exam.

The letters I wrote to ASL, CASA and my local member to highlight my outrage at the time were answered very poorly with the exceptiom of the polly who couldn't believe that such a draconian system existed.

I recieved no offers of a refund of any kind. The cost of flights, accom, etc made my first irex exam a very expensive exercise indeed.

Lets face it if CASA and ASL were in a competitive market for the products and services they provide they wouldn't last a month before they were overtaken by a competitor.

Bad luck about forgetting to take your logbook to your performance exam.

In 92 I sat 1 combined CPL exam on my CFI's kitchen table that had been faxed to our location. What was wrong with that system? It seems that it made it too easy to cheat. Yeah right we all know that if you cheat on your study that the lack of knowledge will bite you in the the arse when it counts.

I hope that the resit went well and that you enjoy the rest of the study process.

Don't forget to look back at it later in your career breathing that sigh of relief that we who have been through it all do.

Thank F#*k that bits over.

[Lodown]

benharris, you're wishing on a pretty big star there. The CASA has computers, but no one really knows how to use a database. That knowledge was cut in an effort to save costs many years ago and the money has never been there to bring it back up to speed. So, just like the regulations, we're stuck in the 1940's with no impetus to look ahead. As go the regulations, so goes aviation.

[Tibbsy]

Ok, I'll play :ok:

Oh CASA, you..... are unaccountable bureaucrats.

[Tibbsy]

Gawd, you know in hindsight, I don't reckon I've taken my logbook to any of my exams....:eek:

Lucky eh :ok:

[Orion Delta]

The terms and conditions are stated on the website before you purchase the exam.

R.T.F.I :ok:

BAK (Basic Aircraft Knowledge)

It is a CASA requirement for candidates sitting all PPL (Aeroplane) or CPL (Aeroplane) examinations to present evidence of their BAK. This is in the form of the appropriate page of the candidate's log book signed by a Chief Flying Instructor and dated. A photocopy of the said page or any other form will not be accepted.

If a candidate does not have this proof of having passed their Basic Aircraft Knowledge test they will not be permitted to sit the exam. This will result in loss of ASL's delivery fee with the CASA fee remaining in credit. The candidate will be required to rebook this exam at a later date.

Candidates should carry their log book with them for each PPL (Aeroplane) and CPL (Aeroplane) exam.

[Tibbsy]

Thanks for your erudite contribution Orion Delta. :D I think it's already been acknowledged that the instructions to candidates are clear.


Candidates should carry their log book with them for each PPL (Aeroplane) and CPL (Aeroplane) exam.

Perhaps CASA should decide if they want to have a licence-based evidentiary system, or a log-book based system rather than a half-arsed, money grubbing mixture of both that we currently have.

[Pinky the pilot]

If memory serves correctly, I was never required to take my logbook to any exam I ever sat. The last exam I sat (and passed) was the then ATPL syllabus in 1992.

[Stikybeke]

My logbook didn't have the BAK endorsement (old CAA system..) . I had to get a letter from CASA stating that I had done it (they provided it to me along with my marks...which was good of them after some time...)....thank god I had my ASIC card...hang on..no-one wanted to see that.....

Stiky
:ugh: