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dik cheney
7th Feb 2010, 06:16
What are the Australian/Overseas job prospects for when I complete my licence?

At this stage the aviation industry (worldwide) is desperately short of pilots, there’s never been a better time to start your training towards your Commercial Pilot Licence. And here I was thinking its bad times for the aviation industry worldwide...lucky RACWA is here to tell us how it is.

remoak
7th Feb 2010, 06:49
Actually if you look at the worldwide situation, they are correct. Doesn't mean more jobs for ozmates though.

onezeroonethree
7th Feb 2010, 06:53
That's a bit deceptive...

Employment Opportunities page on their website:

-Flight Instructors = Not recruiting
-A/C Engineers = Not recruiting
-Client Services Officer / Cashier = Not recruiting

KRUSTY 34
7th Feb 2010, 07:04
Here's the rub. Companies will always be short of pilots at one stage or another. The trick is to be in the right place at the right time with the right qualifications.

If you want it badly enough you will persevere.

If you don't, you will give up!

Arnold E
7th Feb 2010, 07:19
Companies are ALWAYS desperately short of pilots willing to work for nothing. Most will only work for ALMOST nothing:ugh:

dik cheney
7th Feb 2010, 07:29
Actually if you look at the worldwide situation, they are correct.Are you serious?

From 'The Age' World airlines last year suffered their biggest traffic decline since 1945, making 2009 the "worst year the industry has ever seen", and only a slow recovery is expected in 2010, the International Air Transport Association says.

KRUSTY 34
7th Feb 2010, 07:40
I know dik, it sucks.

But sooner or later they will recruit. :(

dik cheney
7th Feb 2010, 07:53
Sucks alright, being at the cusp of getting into a regional 18 months ago, it only now seems I'm getting close to where I was then.

onezeroonethree
7th Feb 2010, 08:06
World airlines last year suffered their biggest traffic decline since 1945, making 2009 the "worst year the industry has ever seen", and only a slow recovery is expected in 2010, the International Air Transport Association says.

Since 1945? :O Perfect timing on my behalf to be entering the industry :ugh:

Luke SkyToddler
7th Feb 2010, 08:47
When they say the world is "desperately short of pilots", I think what they mean to say is "desperately short of highly experienced captains, who hold current type ratings on modern aircraft types, who are willing to work in far flung third world sh!t holes, on appallingly badly paid temporary contracts with no perks, pensions or benefits, flying badly maintained aircraft for financially dubious startup airlines".

Because those are the only jobs that have been on offer the last 20 years or so, that haven't been overrun with 100 x more applications than available jobs :mad::mad::mad:

Tibbsy
7th Feb 2010, 08:49
Companies are ALWAYS desperately short of pilots willing to work for nothing. Most will only work for ALMOST nothing

Spot on :sad:

Arnold E
7th Feb 2010, 08:50
When they say the world is "desperately short of pilots", I think what they mean to say is "desperately short of highly experienced captains, who hold current type ratings on modern aircraft types, who are willing to work in far flung third world sh!t holes, on appallingly badly paid temporary contracts with no perks, pensions or benefits, flying badly maintained aircraft for financially dubious startup airlines".
Yep! said that earlier:ouch:

remoak
7th Feb 2010, 09:05
dik cheney

Are you serious?


From the Asian Times:

Chinese airlines in dogfight for scarce pilots
By Robert Hartmann

HONG KONG - The rapid development of China's civil-aviation industry in recent years has led to a serious shortage of pilots.

According to published figures, 11,000 pilots serve in China's civil airlines, flying more than 800 planes. It is predicted that by 2010, China will have 1,250 aircraft in service, meaning that the industry will require at least 6,500 more civilian pilots by then.


From the McClatchy site:

BEIJING — A pilot shortage is throttling the dramatic and safe ascent of China's aviation industry, leaving hundreds of new Boeing and Airbus jetliners on order without pilots to fly them.
China will need an average of 2,500 pilots each year for the next two decades to fill cockpits, but it can't meet the demand.
So for the first time, foreign pilots are taking command of some Chinese airliners. Citing the pilot shortage as one factor, Aviation Minister Yang Yuanyuan recently declared that the industry is growing "too fast." He's cut back daily flights, slowed the launches of start-up airlines and warned that safety must prevail over growth.
China isn't the only country with a pilot shortage. Airlines across East Asia — and around the world — are grounding flights and offering special pay packages to poach aviators from as far away as Brazil, Russia and Indonesia.
"It's something that is sneaking up on the industry overall because there have always been pilots in the wings," said William R. Voss, chief executive of the Flight Safety Foundation in Alexandria, Va.
Chinese aviation regulators say the nation will need an additional 9,000 or more pilots by 2010, as national airlines add jetliners at the rate of up to 150 a year.
"But speaking truthfully, we only have the capacity to train about 7,000, leaving us short 2,000 pilots," said Gao Hongfeng, the deputy head of the General Administration of Civil Aviation of China. "The shortage of pilots has become an important factor constraining civil aviation's development."

St Petersburg Times...

Shortage of Airline Pilots Sets Off Alarm Bells in Industry

By Maria Antonova
The St. Petersburg Times
SASOVO, Ryazan Region — With its neat rows of houses surrounded by lush greenery, the state-run Sasovo flight school is a bucolic place, graduating up to 300 pilots a year in Soviet times. Today, students occupy only two out of the six dormitory buildings, and the graduating class this spring will total about 40.
A growing shortage of pilots, one of the industry’s most pressing problems before the economic crisis, has been masked partially by falling passenger numbers. But aviation experts expect it to re=-emerge in full force.
The average age of a Russian pilot is 50, and 900 pilots are forced to quit every year after failing to pass strict medical tests, according to Federal Aviation Agency statistics. The government has launched a program that aims to churn out 1,000 new pilots nationwide every year, but even that measure will not fill the gap overnight.


Of course you need to look outside your somewhat local boundaries to see this stuff... :rolleyes:

Arnold E
7th Feb 2010, 09:13
Hmmm, T&C's ???

dik cheney
7th Feb 2010, 09:30
Of course you need to look outside your somewhat local boundaries to see this stuff... :rolleyes:

Is that into the article archives of 2006-2007, before the biggest global recession since the 1930's? :rolleyes:

remoak
7th Feb 2010, 10:18
Try doing some research there dik. The "recession" has had little effect on China and certainly hasn't slowed the rate of airline expansion. The forecast in the only one of my quotes that was from 2007 are still accurate. To quote from Newsweek, last October:

One year ago, the leading governments of the world saved the global economy. Remember October 2008: Lehman Brothers had disappeared, AIG was teetering, every bank was watching its balance sheet collapse. Around the world, credit had frozen and trade was grinding to a halt. Then came a series of moves beginning in Washington—bank bailouts, rescue packages, fiscal stimuli, and, most crucially, monetary easing. It is not an exaggeration to say that these measures prevented a depression. But the crisis has still fueled a major slowdown that has affected every country in the world.
The great surprise of 2009 has been the resilience of the big emerging markets—India, China, Indonesia—whose economies have stayed vibrant. But one country has not just survived but thrived: China. The Chinese economy will grow at 8.5 percent this year, exports have rebounded to where they were in early 2008, foreign-exchange reserves have hit an all-time high of $2.3 trillion, and Beijing's stimulus package has launched the next great phase of infrastructure building in the country. Much of this has been driven by remarkably effective government policies. Charles Kaye, CEO of the global private-equity firm Warburg Pincus, lived in Hong Kong for years. After his last trip to China a few months ago he said to me, "All other governments have responded to this crisis defensively, protecting their weak spots. China has used it to move aggressively forward." It is fair to say that the winner of the global economic crisis is Beijing.

Almost every country in the Western world entered the crisis ill prepared. Governments were spending too much money and running high deficits, so when they had to spend massively to stabilize the economy, deficits zoomed into the stratosphere. Three years ago, European countries were required to have a budget deficit of less than 3 percent of GDP to qualify for EU membership. Next year, many will have deficits of about 8 percent of GDP. The U.S. deficit will be higher, in percentage terms, than at any point since World War II.
China entered the crisis in an entirely different position. It was running a budget surplus and had been raising interest rates to tamp down excessive growth. Its banks had been reining in consumer spending and excessive credit. So when the crisis hit, the Chinese government could adopt textbook policies to jump-start growth. It could lower interest rates, raise government spending, ease up on credit, and encourage consumers to start spending. Having been disciplined during the fat years, Beijing could now ease up during the lean ones.
China will spend $200 billion on railways in the next two years, much of it for high-speed rail. The Beijing-Shanghai line will cut travel times between those two cities from 10 hours to four. The United States, by contrast, has designated less than $20 billion, to be spread out over more than a dozen projects, thus guaranteeing their failure. It's not just rail, of course. China will add 44,000 miles of new roads and 100 new airports in the next decade. And then there is shipping, where China has become the global leader. Two out of the world's three largest ports are Shanghai and Hong Kong.

Checkboard
7th Feb 2010, 11:17
and offering special pay packages to poach aviators from as far away as Brazil, Russia and Indonesia....all places know for their high standards of safety and pay.:)

winguru
7th Feb 2010, 20:01
About Brazil there is good payments for Airline International Flights, a FO can earn more than a captain in national flying, just because he knows english.

These payments in the higher posts many times are above europe ones from nowadays, wich overthere its like having a fortune, but still you wont be able to buy the nice rich style things, like in america, or a bit like europe, for that you need to be milionaire.

They leave for airlines outside, because they get even better contracts, has a friend did the same from an african country to Qatar.

I wont tell you how much, because you will go and complain with Qatar.

Saying all this, they go fly in diferent countries, just to get better to what they already have that is already pretty good, many also for a change and some adventure.

They dont go to different places, to pay to work.
This is what is making this industry a :mad: nowadays.
Spend money while you are getting your CPL, go have some fun, share flights with private owner, fly diferent planes, its all possible just have to search, even in internet you can meet alot of plane owners.

Just dont trow away your money in a flight school, and have the idea that airlines will recruit, because a 200 h pilot in airline is not a pilot, and they just for insurance porpuses and to make money on you.

Pay for a TR if are getting a good job and good payment, that is fair for all the money you have spent before, and for responsability you have in your hands.

If not go fly smaller planes, airlines is not only what we have to aviate, and being a airline pilot doesnt make you any "better" than other pilots, your just a pilot.

Its something i see in 80% of european students, and i dont get it.
Mostly all the old captains nowadays, flyed alot smaller airplanes, in bad conditions manytimes, when they had enough hours, mature enough, real aviators, they moved on to the next step, a career, like in other jobs ( you dont go to CEO of company just because you spent more money )

Back to Brasil

I also know that there is extraordinary payments for executive aviation, mostly for pilots that fly for a owner, this when it gets to jets or the expensive helis.

There is a owner, that has 2 augustas helis, a sovereign, a challenger, and all his pilots are captains, and they all fly heli and jets. I wont tell you what they earn because you all want to go there, but you will never make it. Its only going to be a dream.

No forreigns allowed to operate national aircraft, just some adventure guys that are really willing to make the effort, and become almost brazilians can make it, like russia.

Never needed guys from exterior, they have good pilots overthere, the basic instruction in the private pilot, its not padronized like FAA, dont have english, but the pilots usualy solo the old tailwheels (most dificult thing that i have flyed in this light class airplanes, even more than multi engine) in 10-15 hours, and get the licence in 35 hours, and all this airline pilots there done the same, they have to be good in less time, dont have money to afford.

Defenitly there is no pilot shortage, executive aviation has heli and airplane is booming. Airlines also doing good.

Lots of pilots available, and the government offering scollarships not for the ones that cannot afford, but for the ones that study all ppl and cpl lessos home (6 months of study) before even starting to fly or going to a school.

Its the only country know that i know, that people withouth nothing 10 years agora can afford citation mustang. And im not kidding. I met some when i was there.

Every bussiness that has the potential of international, or interstate, with the right actions can turn out big like that.

Its one the biggest sefl sustaining countries (its so rich has a country, not socially i mean) i have ever seen, although there is alot of poverty, and all the problems, but no one there felt the "Crisis", nor seems to be bothered with that, still to today, the rich with international business felt it though.

Im saying this as a foreigner.

frigatebird
7th Feb 2010, 20:47
winguru, thank you for your view from another angle. Always good to hear from someone who has travelled, and compared, so different from the usual local view where every molehill gets described as a mountain..

Metro man
7th Feb 2010, 21:37
Don't forget Vietnam, huge aircraft orders in and not enough locals available. Of course most of the jobs require a jet endorsement and experience on type.

I can't remember a time when there was a shortage of inexperienced/unendorsed applicants for F/O jobs, experienced Captains is where the demand will be.

Get in the left seat of a modern jet ASAP and take your pick of the contracts. Career airlines are in decline with reducing terms and conditions. While still a good job Cathay today is nothing like it was in the 1980s.

bushy
8th Feb 2010, 00:21
Finally, some sensible discussion about the supply and demand situation for pilot jobs.
Flying schools and aeroplane sales organisations have always promoted flying training.
We need to balance this with information from other sources.

winguru
8th Feb 2010, 01:33
I think that aviation is still a good investment, but i dont see it has an investment but has a way of life, many are concerned that there is no jobs, but mostly this is about airlines, and many times its just about how much i will earn and this, and this are the same people that "sell" themselfes to the airlines.
Nothing agnaist them, but i just see things from a diferent way.

My advice is get to know the local aviation sceene, if you are not willing to move to another place. Try to be like a member of a club, do your things right and the opportunity will come. This is the way many started, and now their are airline captains.

The general aviation /private executive aviation, its a small world, usually people help each other, employed pilots help new unemployed pilots, make them contact with plane owners. Thats why im saying save your money from integrated training, spend it flying with other people that have experience and acess to private planes, its cheaper and you learn alot.

Im young, started flying 2 years ago, but im more like an oldschool, if i got a job flying warbirds or jetfighters just for demonstration i would do it instead of an airliner. That would be wicked :} i will keep dreaming...

winguru
8th Feb 2010, 05:35
You are right, i always wanted to do some private GA flying in Australia, how bad is it overthere?

I guess Ag flying is not better either?

tinpis
8th Feb 2010, 05:50
Fortunately West Island is still operating ok but another 3 years of KRudd may change that

Kiwi workers told: make do with 'crumbs' - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/02/08/2813010.htm)

frigatebird
8th Feb 2010, 09:04
A New Zealand Growth Industry. Growing up in N.Z. then 'Shipping Out' to the 'Promised Land' to earn the Big Dollars. Must be over 51 % of the N.Z. born population here already. Seem to be everywhere on the Sunshine Coast. Do they ever go back later, other than for holidays?