Airline Better Business Bureau

[On Final]

Hello,

I have spent some time on PPRUNE and see many posts and complaints about Airlines and their Agencies. I find it hard to gather information since it is all spread out in different areas. I know this is under Asia but for now lets put ANY airline post here.

I wanted to start a new post area the "Airline Better Business Bureau" WORLD WIDE where pilots could post issues on Airlines and agencies Good and Bad where pilots could have a look before they take the leap of faith and accept employment.

I will copy and paste some of the other posts here so they will be easy to find.

Please keep this in mind when you make your next post.

Good Luck,

On Final

[On Final]

Post about Air Astana:

Air Astana contracts not worth the paper they are written on
Fhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gifk you Air Astana, thanks very much for taking away 3 days of my contracted days off, thank you for also cutting my housing allowance so now all that I can afford is a place where I can't even walk outside at night for fear of getting muggedhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif

Anyone considering coming here on contract, think looooong and hard, the newish flight ops management team here are ex delta and appear to only be interested in screwing over pilots who are half a world away from family and loved ones.
Don't expect any support from your contract agency, they will merely pass on the unilateral change to your quality of life.
A mass exodus appears to be very very close, and with better contracts now becoming available elsewhere, particularly with those who commute, Air Astana could well find a few Airbuses parked for lack of crews.
Nice job T.N. all you need to do is show a little interest in your contractors, and get your rostering department to start thinking for once and roster us more efficiently, then you would achieve the savings (or your bonus) that you are after, and have the added bonus of retaining expensive to recruit and train pilots.
Never mind I suppose, what do you carehttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/yeees.gif

[On Final]

Post about Korean Air 777 Captains:

Korean (KAL) is screwing over ex-pats..
I just got this after looking closely into a KAL position for myself. This doesn't bode well for ex-pats looking for work in Korea.

This is long so I will post in two or three parts..
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This report is 8 pages long. It is submitted to inform you of the
corruption involving B-777 `training' by Korean Air and/or a CASA
government official. Please advise all B-777 pilot applicants to
Korean Air that they have a very poor chance of passing a Korean Air
check ride causing a blemish on their professional record.

Korean Air B-777 Dec 3, 2007 training class.

As of April, 2008 the final pass/fail results for our class is:

There is only one pilot that passed his CASA check ride. Only one
pilot remains employed out of six (6) that started in the Dec 3, 2007
B-777 class at Korean Air! Two members of our class had thousands of
previous hours flying the B-777 (they were NOT newly rated) and the
rest of us were highly qualified, but newly rated B-777 Captains.
Every one of us passed ALL of our other Korean Air check rides and
oral examinations and recommendation ride. We passed everything
except for the final CASA check ride. Neither of the previously rated
B-777 pilots passed their check ride. The only one that passed was
newly rated and had been a B-737 Captain. (More background
information regarding my qualifications and flying experience is
outlined below.) The statistics presented in this report should be
very revealing, especially if you consider the fact that most of the
class previous to ours didn't succeed in making it through their check
rides either. I understand that the same CASA inspector conducted
their check rides as well. And the class before that - most of their
pilots failed. For the last three classes in a row, CASA and/or
Korean Air failed all of the pilots except for one or two. Korean Air
refused to give me any details on the exact failure rate and told my
class that those pilots had failed because they lied on their resumes.
That is not consistent with the story that I heard from a very
reliable source or the way myself and others in my class have been
treated. Statistically, anyone should be able to see that something
is very wrong with this process! It is devastating to the pilots that
have invested so much of their time, money and professional reputation
to pursue a job at Korean Air. My intent in this report is to inform
new applicants of the situation at Korean Air before you throw away
your time and money. I also must set the record straight to protect
my professional reputation. I am telling you this so you can hear it
from me personally instead of the "spin" that will surely be put on
the real truth by CASA and Korean Air management. I have no doubt
that they will simply say `[we] were not qualified' and/or did not
live up to Korean Air Standards or didn't follow the POM/FOM. It is
not true! Do not believe it. Here is why:

My credentials: I passed the Korean Air Law Test, the Korean Air Oral
Exam, the Korean Air simulator check ride, the Korean Air ETOPS check
ride, the recommendation ride and the CASA oral exam. I have never
failed a check ride in 34 years of flying. I starting flying Gliders
in 1974 and was flying C-130's in the U.S. Air Force by 1976. I have
flown for 34 years without accidents, incidents or any violations. I
have received awards for flight safety including the Delta Air Lines
2005 Safety Award. I have been an instructor with thousands of hours
of instructor time and I have been a Line Check Pilot. I have more
than 15,000 hours of total flying experience. I have FAA ratings on
the B-777; B-767; B-757; MD88; and L-382 (C-130). I am a graduate of
one of the hardest academic schools in the world, the United States
Air Force Academy. I was employed at Delta Air Lines, Inc. for over
21 years and have flown as Captain for 16 years (including Air Force).

New Hire Status: When Korean Air offered me a conditional job based
upon obtaining the B-777 rating at my own expense, I paid for and
received the B-777 rating from Boeing / Alteon in Seattle , Washington
, USA . I passed all oral examinations and rating rides in the
simulator at Boeing/Alteon in Seattle , Washington . Although it was
a new type rating, I was highly qualified and have been a Captain on
the B-767/ 757 for eight years and have over 7,000 hours of PIC time
at Delta (much more if you include Air Force time). I started ground
school class with Korean Air in Seoul , Korea on December 3, 2007 and
started my Operational Experience (OE) training on February 11th 2008.

"No Notes" and Negative Training: As of March 25, 2008 I have flown 8
trips (16 sectors/legs) with 5 instructors. I have had so many
instructors because I requested an instructor change after the first
four legs and apparently they could not regain continuity in
scheduling with any other instructor. It was necessary for me to
request a replacement of the first instructor and here is why: He
spoke very poor English at best. I just couldn't understand him. It
could have been his frustration in his inability to speak English that
caused him to communicate with me by actually yelling at me, insulting
me and belittling me. He chastised and berated me for not knowing
all HIS flight techniques that are being taught as procedures. I only
understood a small percentage of what he said although his favorite
line was "Do you understand!!?" in a booming voice. No, I didn't
understand. However, I did understand him when he said he couldn't
believe that I had been a Captain for a major airline. Others in my
class complained repeatedly of similar disrespectful comments and
treatment. My final decision to change instructors was made when he
told me I could no longer refer to any of my written notes. He
threatened to have me fired if I referenced them again. He threatened
me with termination for doing what I have always done for 34 years!
Since I had just started my Operational Experience (OE) and since so
many others had been terminated, I had to consider his comment to be a
viable threat. He was a Korean Air Line Check Pilot (LCP). His
unreasonable requirement included my not being able to use the route
study notes that I had written down from the required viewing of the
audio visual route and airport videos (AV Packs). This was a double
standard because he constantly referred to his own notes for
frequencies, PA's etc., etc.. EVERYONE I have ever talked to and
flown with at Korean Air Lines has told me they used their notes to
learn from, fly with, and to survive the arduous memory requirements
of Korean Air training. I have used personal flight notes for 34
years starting in gliders with a knee board to write notes while
flying. The absurdity of his `no notes' concept is - if they wanted
us to memorize everything, then why do we even have electronic
checklists, POM, FOM and PA guides or even the `Airport Analysis
Charts' in the cockpit? Those first four legs (sectors) of my OE were
totally wasted in negative training. At its worst, it was pure
harassment. At its best, every ride was treated as a check ride. It
was constant ridicule with very little instruction. It certainly was
NOT western style training. I knew I would not survive the OE with
this instructor so my only choice was to request an instructor change.
It was a difficult decision to make because I had been told of the
potential dire consequences of requesting an instructor change (due to
the `losing face' issue). That difficult choice was only made after a
lot of consultation. I consulted with Foreign Captain "Advisor to
Line Operations", Al Makdisi. He told me not to use my notes. I also
consulted with Tom Divine, "Advisor Flight Standards and Training" and
many other line pilots.

Each new instructor taught me his own techniques and called them
Korean Air procedures. I complied and faithfully followed those
procedures and documented all the changes in a script that I sent via
email with multiple updates to many other pilots who were starting
training class at Korean Air Lines in order to assist them in getting
a head start before their OE. After studying for months, I knew the
content of the FOM/POM but was not aware of its interpretation or its
application until I was almost finished with my OE since each new
instructor `inspired' constant changes to the techniques and "the
script". Even on my check ride.

The final Check ride:

03/25/08: I received my CASA Check ride by CASA Captain Hwang Sa Sik
#01411234. He is a former senior Korean Air Captain.

Captain Choi Mu Yeol #9005765 was the LCP in the right seat acting as
First officer who was worried for his job. He did not support me
throughout the flight or in the debriefing because he would certainly
fail his next check ride if he spoke on my behalf. He therefore
remained silent while CASA Captain Hwang talked. He apologized to me
for not supporting me after CASA Hwang departed.

I contend that my check ride result was predetermined long before I
left the ground. It was a hoax and a farce. The results had nothing
to do with my performance. CASA Captain Hwang lied about the events.
He fabricated the reasons for failing me on my check ride which I
will discuss later in this report. As far as I am concerned I passed
in every department. I have never failed a check ride in my life and
this was no exception. I admit there were a few debriefing items
(because it is impossible to do all Korean techniques), but absolutely
nothing was unsafe and my landings we picture perfect smooth landings
with cross winds. It is obvious that Captain Hwang, SA-SIK – a CASA
government official, is intentionally failing foreign B-777 pilots on
their check rides. He either has a personal agenda or is being
instructed to fail us by someone at Korean Air. I think he is failing
foreign pilots because he was a former Korean Air Captain himself. He
either has a `bone to pick' with Korean Air due to possible forced
early retirement or is helping his union pilot friends at Korean Air
by keeping the B-777's grounded without foreign captains to fly them.
Maybe he is just trying to ensure Korean Captains upgrade faster than
Foreign Captains. I don't know which answer is correct, but I would
bet my career on the fact that the failure rate of domestic Korean
Captains is nowhere close to the dismal failure rate of foreign
Captains. I think Captain Hwang is intentionally countering the
Korean Air's President Jong-Hee Lee's push to hire more foreign
Captains. His dishonorable actions are both personal and political
and foreign Captains are being caught in the middle as victims who
spent precious time and money pursuing an unachievable dream with
potentially dire consequences to their professional reputation. The
check ride was a hoax and a farce. Korean Air is lending credibility
to this farce by terminating the employment of the foreign Captains
after not passing the CASA check ride. This treatment of Foreign
Captains does not appear to be happening as often on any other fleet.
Everyone else (in my class) on all EXCEPT the B-777 has passed their
check ride – (They probably had other CASA officials as the check
pilot). Don't let Korean Air tell you it was the qualifications of
our B-777 class. All except one in our class were OVER QUALIFIED and
at least as qualified as other foreign Captains on the other fleets
who passed their check rides.

Additional details of the check ride:

Prior to the check ride I had not been given any time for route study
since my oral was less than 24 hours prior to flight. After passing
my oral with a high score, CASA Capt Hwang requested my log book. He
expressed that he wanted to confirm my hours. I told him I did not
have my pilot log book in Korea (except for the Korean Air log book I
had started) and offered to give him a letter the following day from
Delta Air Lines, my former employer, which gave a break down of my
flight time.

On the morning of my check ride I showed up 3 hours prior to push back
time for route study. Captain Choi, the LCP, showed up VERY late and
did not even know a check ride had been scheduled. I was frantic and
only had 15 minutes to brief him before going to the aircraft for the
`Joint Briefing'.

CASA Capt Hwang met us at the aircraft and requested my OE training
record upon arrival. I also presented him with the copy of the letter
from Delta Air Lines. (Early into the flight to Hong Kong , he
actually took my OE training record from me and then proceeded to
reference the FOM as he started writing. Apparently he needed help
from the FOM and my OE training record in developing his reasons for
failing me. It was too early in the check ride to start writing
because at that point, nothing had happened.) It would be impossible
for anyone to maintain an objective and neutral opinion after reading
anyone's OE training record. He is human and would become biased to
look for past weaknesses - even if he saw you do everything right on
your check ride. This biased process would never be allowed in most
ICAO nations.

[On Final]

Post about Qatar Air :

There must be some really un capable and non professional people in our management.

We are struggling to find enough crews to man all fleets.

Some people fly 100 hours, others only 40.

The standard of the whole airline has fallen dramatically. This can be seen on the number of incidents on the rise! We all know its only a matter of time…

The new CPT has been suckered into politics from the very first day he started. I am sure the man has some very good ideas and a knowledgeable background, but I am convinced he never saw these games coming! This can be seen in his latest ACN regarding refreshments in the sim centre.
Dear sir, this has been going on for at least a year! CAE made an original contract with QR to provide the crews doing training in their A330 sim with refreshments. Gradually other people started occupying the building, all feeding on the CAE supplies!
CAE warned QR on several occasions. Even the CEO was informed but he disapproved the installation of a proper kitchen. In the meanwhile all the managers in flight ops pretended nothing was wrong!
So now, after a year, CAE pulled the plug. GOOD ON THEM! Unfortunately everybody knows this story in detail, so by issuing a memo that all this happened suddenly and that QR was looking into it now, the new CP T was fooled into loosing a bit of his credibility. A shame really, but to be expected….

No salary increase….why should they? We got one last year so shut up! Who cares about inflation, exchange rates, lies about never coming provident funds, pay differences between fleets, etc…..

To end this ranting session, I am sure most of you have seen that disgraceful message regarding the contribution to Capt Renatos family. The manager who wrote this ( and we all know his name) should be dying of shame!
I am sure, when written properly, most of us would gladly help out his family with all our hart! But when I read a letter, telling me I have to contribute a minimum of 500QR, without any more explanation….well in short: FORGET IT!
I will find other ways to help his family if needed!
And I am not alone in this…just look at all the letters in the waste bin!

Maybe management should start thinking a little bit more in the future….maybe Capt Renatos case should be seen as proof to all of us that this company does not care about our life! Just make sure that you have covered yourself and your family in case something happens to you…because we all know, QR will not give a damn!
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[On Final]

Post about a Fake Agency website www.bayt.com (http://www.bayt.com):



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bayt is a scam. Do not register with Jobs in Dubai, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait | Search Job | Bayt.com (http://www.bayt.com)
Check out Bayt.com on Ripoff Ripoff Report: Bayt.com Bayt.com Scam / Fraud Dubai, Internet (http://www.ripoffreport.com/employers/bayt-com/bayt-com-bayt-com-scam-frau-c23a6.htm)

This website is a money making scheme. They initial services are free and then they force you to pay $250 to create a CV or remain jobless. This is not fair,this is
fraud, the are cheating people out of the money they rather use to survive in the countries that $250 really matter.

I have found out the owners name, its Rabea Ataya. He has a very bad reputation in the GCC countries for coming up with money making
scams. I did some search on the web and found a lot negative articles on Bayt.com and I am not sure how they can still have an office in Dubai.

There is a way to complain to the UAE authorities its called Al Ameen Services Al Ameen (http://www.alameen.ae/) complain here if your have lost $250 for Bayt.com CV creating service.

[On Final]

Post about Batavia Air:

unprofessional?....unsafe?.....
The only issue here has absolutely nothing to do with being safe or professional at all.There are really no issues in that respect, as far as the 20-odd expats here already are concerned.However, there is a big credibility issue with respect to the honesty of the company regarding contract conditions.You get a contract sent to you before you come, then like magic, a new one is presented to you upon arrival that doesnt resemble the first one.Its all about the pilot supply/demand equation and right now it favours the airlines.What to do?.Its up to you, but if desperate enough, or looking for that first break into jets, etc, then you will consider almost anything wont you?.Things will turn around soon, but a job is a job even with Batavia, and nothing rules you out of the running for desirable jobs more than a CV that screams "...last flight was july 2008..." Pete.

[On Final]

Note: Flying in China is all about QAR's at most carriers that I know. If you make a mistake you will be fined and punished. Make sure the airline you plan to work for treats it's pilots well. You also need a good agent that will help you out when or if you get in trouble.


Post about Shenzhen Airlines

Anybody who is thinking about coming to Shenzhen Airlines needs to think about what this could do to their future.
Ask the pilot who right now is battleing with the company about a hard landing. He is already down $10,000 and counting.
Ask the foreign instructor and his student who had a hard landing early last year. These landings are determind by the QAR in the airplane, a means of judging a hard landing that Boeing says is unreliable.
Ask the pilots who had to retain a lawyer to avoid being punished for not following a company policy that was only written in Chinese.
Ask any agent about the punishments that you will be facing for various infractions.
You will be working four days on and two days off, any meeting that the company requires you to attend will be on YOUR day off and does not count as being on duty.
There is also a high rate of good pilots who fail checkrides in the sim or that fail line checks.
Just a few days ago I received multiple emails on the subject of illegally long duty days. Last summer there was so many delays that at least one pilot took a month unpaid leave to recooperate. It is not getting any better.
I can continue with many more examples.
If you are considering Shenzhen, I hope that for your sake you will review what has already been written by clrbu22, jota jota, fly fly and others.
Coming here can change your career in a way you may not like.

[JotaJota]

Very interesting info! For now none of this applies to Deer Air (or Capitol), and hope it never does... Thank god!

[On Final]

I have had a hard time trying to find info about airlines and thought we might put the comments here so it would be easy to find. We will see what happens as time goes on.....

I hear good things about Deer Air...

Good Luck,

On Final

[On Final]

Shanghai Airlines
85 Flying Hours per month 16 to 18 hours long days, commute 4 hours roundtrip on the Shuttle Bus. Operate out of two airports, seldom the one nearest your residence. You WILL BE one tired son-of-a-bitch flying here, to the point of being dangerous (at least in your own mind). You'd be lucky to get 6 to 7 hours of sleep a night.

There is NO RESPECT for Crew Rest or Human Factors nor CAAC Regulations.

One or two aircraft are so poorly maintained it feels like flying during Manual Reversion . . . The **** in the Right Seat has been told to ride on the controls and they scare easily, often overpowering you, when the 700 Hour wonder isn't telling you how to fly your aeroplane.

In reality, this contract must be negotiated between you and the smiling pricks on the other side of the table. There will be nothing in place, before you come, no guarantees. Forget whatever was offered in the precis to lure you here . . . if it is not in writing, though luck.

Another reality check: this is a NON-COMMUTING CONTRACT.

Out of 5 foreign Captains, 2 resigned after a year and a half. A third has threatened, if things do not improve.

BE FOREWARNED: They could pay you a million USD per month and it just is not worth it.

Find a way to get your email to me and I will tell you all about flying in China. Reality Check

[expatrg]

Subject: Penalty Notification




Penalty Notification of a Flight Delay Event Caused by
Personal Reason

On 31th May, ZH9095 was supposed to takeoff at 14:35. After arriving
Shenzhen base on flight ZH9889 from Beijing, Captain XXXXXX supposed that he had completed his schedule day duty and took the company
bus to home. It caused the consequence of changing the captain of ZH9095
and the flight was finally takeoff at 15:03, 33minutes delay.

According flight department 's 《Pilots Performance Appraisal
Regulation》,'Due to any personal reason which cause the flight delay,
there will be 2000yuan penalty for Captain and 1000yuan penalty for First
Officer '. As to this event, there will be 2000yuan penalty for Captain
xxxxxxxx

shenzhen sent without xxxx for every pilot in company


Flight Department
2010-6-4

[On Final]

Hello all,

I may not have all of the data but I am getting some negative reports about Vietnam Airlines and the crews are not happy. Also the crews were not being paid per contract. If anyone cares to may a commnet that would be great.

Thanks,

On Final

[On Final]

Hello Fellow Pilots,

Just a word of caution and I am sure that many of you are aware. For those who have never worked abroad on a contract with a Foreign carrier be sure to do the research and save yourself time and money. By the time you finish all of the time and hard work landing the job and get on the property it is hard to change jobs quickly. it will take you months and cost you money being out of work. Be careful with your agency and your airline because with you are not paid properly or reimbursed as promissed most likely you will never get it back.

Agencies tend to blame the airline letting you pay the price because they don't want to sour their relations for the pilot. In China make sure your contract gives you and out to work at other airlines within China after your contract completion. Even then it will take some luck to work within China with another carrier if your current airline is unhappy with you.

Be sure to check PPRUNE about the airlines and agencies well I think it is worth it.

Good luck,

On Final

[On Final]

Fellow Pilots,

I have some confirmed reports that JuneYao airlines is not treating foreign pilots well.

The reports I have are they are using the Sim and initial hiring process to eliminate pilots. Somewhere along in the process the new Captains just dont seem to make it.

We need your input here on this airline. It will help others from making the mistake of applying for a job that will only cause hardship.

Good Luck,

On Final

[On Final]

I had another post and wanted to also copy it here. Just read below and be careful before signing any agency agreements in China..!!!!


Fellow Pilots,

Here is the latest from China. I have a confirmed report that China Aviation Recruitment/Vor Holding requires a 1 YEAR waiting period before you can work for any other Airline in China. They will make special efforts to block you working elsewhere in China for 1 YEAR if you leave VOR. I am not sure what the pilots are signing but I know that Uncle Ted talks directly with the airline and lets tells them not to "release" any pilot or their paperwork for 1 YEAR. I know of a pilot trying to seek employment elsewhere in China under VOR and Uncle Ted called the airline to put the smakdown on the pilot rather than help the pilot move along.

Buyer Beware of China Aviation Recruitment/Vor Holding they are not nice and will do you harm if you try to leave them...!!

Before you signing an agency agreement or anything with this agency, make sure you read the fine print. I WOULD NOT sign any agreement from China Aviation Recruitment/Vor Holding restricting your employment for 1 YEAR in China. China is a hot market keep you options open...!!

Good Luck,

On Final

[On Final]

Here is a re-post watch out for VOR Holdings..!


VOR Holdings SCAM China Cargo
Are you thinking about this contract, oh sorry "Agreement"?
Being offered a Line Captains Position B777?
Ask the question - will I be PIC or SPIC?
SPIC = SIC in China and everywhere else.
You will always sit in the RHS!
You will never be able to log PIC hours.
When you do your License Checkride in the sim, then the surprise comes - why is the SPIC box ticked off?!
Answer - their Union does not allow you to ever be PIC.

Another reason. Probably the Chinese CP does not hold ICAO 4 English, so the CAAC requires min. two Crew Members Typed/Rated and current to be in the Cockpit that hold ICAO 4.
So the PIC is non-ICAO 4, the other two SIC's hold ICAO 4. Legal to fly.
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[fly_fly]

wasinc is another agency that is bad news. they don't respect contracts and will lie to your face and sweet talk you until you come to china and are locked in then they will not respect the contract or give you any of the support they claimed they would. they will leave you on your own out to dry, pay you late and often skip the last payment if they can. don't trust wasinc. goto shenzhen and hang out for a while in shekou and you will find plenty of pilots who got the short end of the stick from wastink

[n1_spindown]

so it appears that I'm not the only one who got cheated by wasinc. maybe someday they will wise up and honor contracts and pay people money owed to them according to the contract. think carefully before you get locked down into a bad situation when coming to china.

[Rotorhead1026]

Not just to be contrary, but both VOR Holdings and Wasinc treated me well during two recent interviews. Now the airlines I interviewed with had their issues (one of which, to be fair, was I didn't get either job :{), but these agencies did their best.

Always read the proferred contract carefully. If possible, contact some of the company's pilots before / during the interview process. The posts above can be useful, but forum information should not be your sole source of data.

[ExpressCa]

On Final,

I see your intentions on airline awareness for pilots (BBB). I think its a GREAT idea and if I may suggest to add Score/Graph to be voted for each airline mentioned above by guys who have first hand experience. :ok:

[PBY]

Hi guys,
I also have a good experience with Wasinc in China. Paid on time, good support. I am realizing, that somebody else could have a bad experience. But I think, that it is necessary to post both good and bad experiences to have the complete picture.

[PBY]

To go back to the chinese experience. I think, that it is a part of a chinese culture not to honor contracts. They don't seem to be able to follow rules. The longer I live here, the more I realize, that even the hiring agencies cannot do anything about this and are pretty much helpless. Even though I think, that choosing a good agency is important, I think in China is even more important to choose a good company. Because the contract is not so important as their general attitude towards foreign pilots. If they have a bad attitude, they have ways to screw you up even in little things. I also agree with previous posts, that Shenzhen airlines is not the way to go. They seem to be using a simulator as a political tool and it does not matter which agency you are with. On the other hand, if a company has a good attitude, than the experience can be a pleasant one. I am not aware of any good company in China for foreign pilots, except I hear good stuff about Deer Air.

[Rotorhead1026]

I think, that it is a part of a Chinese culture not to honor contracts. They don't seem to be able to follow rules.


This isn't limited to China, or to the "East" in general. Anyone who's worked for a US Airline is familiar with management "pushing the limits". The methods sometimes differ slightly, but the intent (and effect) is similar. You do have some different remedies in the West, but all too often the cure is worse than the disease. In all cases, ultimately, you have to look out for yourself. :)

[saichic]

I am from UAE so I know for a fact Bayt.com is not an agency, it is a job site like monster. And the biggest in the Middle East.

The service referred to here is professional CV writing - which is optional and. It is clearly mentioned on the Bayt.com Site that subscribing these services - do not guarantee a job.

I have personally subscribed to these services, they did a great job on my CV.

It seems the person who wrote this mail did not read the deliverables assocated with this service.

Which I may add is not in fine print but in big nold letters.

[Intruder One]

There seems to be info on every carrier except Spring.

Someone must be working there that can provide some info?

[On Final]

Fellow Pilots,

This is an update:

Stay Away from China Aviation Recruitment/VOR Holdings/TED....!!!!!!!

I have close friends under contract with VOR and will offer you some good advice, try another agency...!!! They operate under several names, VOR Holdings, China Aviation Recruitment, (forgot the other name) and have a marketing agreement with "Climb to 350". Basically if you log into climb to 350, you will be filtered right into VOR, China Aviation Recruitment, a commission is paid to Climb to 350. Just goes to shall you how slippery these people are not to disclose this marketing agreement. They dont tell the pilots they dont have a chance with other agencies, the resumes are filtered, good applicants go to VOR Holdings, others are sent to the junk file. Just look at the banner ads on Climb to 350", you will see it.

I knew a pilot that had some trouble and needed help, VOR called him up and said they will have him fired and cancel his contract instead of lending a pilot a helping hand. This is a fact, not a story or one with an axe to grind.

I can tell you, they will try to lock you up in China and you will not be able to work for another carrier without VOR for 1 year, maybe more. They will go behind your back and make side deals with the company and tell them what they want to hear that will effect your contract with that carrier. They will make sure the company does not give you a release letter.

I know of a pilot that left a Chinese Airline and Uncle Ted, VOR, China Aiation Recruitment took him to arbitration for leaving without notice. Now they are hunting down the pilot to try and collect 54,000 USD in penalties for legal fees and other charges.

You are WARNED to stay away from this poor agency...!!

Good Luck,

On Final

[On Final]

This is a copy of a post I found from 2008 but goes to show what can happen in China.




Warning: Hainan Airlines & NetCompass
I just want to give you guys a warning about Hainan Airlines (China) and Net Compass crew leasing firm.* Three of us from the USA interviewed at Hainan over 3 months ago for the B767 Captain position. None of us got the job. They promised to reimburse the cost of the airline tickets, but so far it has not happened. Vivian Chen of Net Compass ([email protected]) told us we would get reimbursed by Hainan Air when we got to Beijing. That didn't happen. Every time we have talked to them since that time the Hainan HR representative Adam Liu ([email protected]) has come up with a new excuse or a new requirement for getting reimbursed. We have meticulously complied with every requirement, but they just keep making excuses and telling us it will be two more weeks, maybe another month.** I have a couple friends who started the interview process for the B737 a month prior to us and were hired.* They have been working for the company for 6 weeks (or in training or waiting for their work visa) and they also have still not been reimbursed for their flight tickets, and they tell me they are sure they will not be reimbursed until they are all checked out and flying the line.* The implication is clear that no one gets reimbursed until actually flying the line (And I am wondering if then?).* However, the promise to pay for flight tickets to the interview was definitely NOT contingent up taking the job at Hainan Airlines.* It was clearly stated in both the initial information sheet sent to us by NetCompass and also in personal emails. We were clearly lied to.* The three of us each spent from $1700 to $3,000 that has not been reimbursed as promised.

If you go to the interview, you should not be expecting reimbursement for flight tickets, no matter what they tell you.* And if they will tell you a bold face lie about that, I can't help but wonder what else they will lie about.* Is the contract worth the paper it is written on?* Time will tell, but I doubt it.*
*
If you go to the interview, you can expect to do the physical, take the Chinese ATP written (they will give you study materials), and a check ride in the simulator with a company check airman and a CAAC inspector from the Chinese government.* It is a busy check ride as any type rating check ride would be,* just short of about 2 hours in length and multiple failures.* It seems each check ride is different and there is no set profile, but they are big on crosswinds (90 degrees at 35 knots) and multiple system failures.* The CAAC inspector and the Company Check Airman will speak almost no English, and everything will be done through your interpreter Adam Liu.*
*
They will put you in a company owned "crew hotel" near the Beijing airport (not open to the public).* It is about a one star hotel.* We spent about 11 days in this place due to the inefficient scheduling of everything.* It is not filthy, but not sparkling clean either, extremely simple with no amenities.* It is well worn, and some rooms have holes in the plaster and water damage.* I found it kind of depressing.* The only towel provided is a small faded hand towel.* Bring your own bath towel.* There is a slow internet connection via Ethernet cord, fast enough for email and painfully slow web browsing but too slow for Skype phone calls.* The ONLY person there whom you will be able to communicate with in English will be the HR representative Adam Liu who also stays in the hotel during flight crew screenings.* No one else speaks English.* We never saw the company headquarters or met any other management people from the company (Headquarters is on Hainan island).* Hainan Air will provide your meals in the employee cafeteria, which is very simple Chinese food.* The hotel is located in a very poor area where the local restaurants are extremely basic Chinese food and there are a few local shops but not much is available.* It is not convenient to public transportation, but you can get a taxi into central Beijing from there for about 10 USD as I recall.* Once in the central part of Beijing, it is an attractive and modern city.* The only thing I really didn't like about Beijing was the obnoxious air pollution.* And be careful; Beijing is known as a city of scams, and you will encounter at least one in your time there.* You can read up on the common ones on one of the travel bulletin boards.

If you are going to pursue the job with Hainan, I would not recommend NetCompass Crew Leasing company. We found them to be less than ideal about responding to emails and giving us helpful information. I have been told that Hainan is working with 4 crew leasing companies, and the only other one that I know of for sure is GPS, or Global Pilot Service (GPSCrew Global Pilot Service Official Site (http://www.GPScrew.com)). I am not recommending them, but I do know that the other two guys I mentioned earlier (B737) used this company and seemed to get more personal attention than we did. For instance, we needed to get some documents translated into Chinese. NetCompass just told us to go hire a translator, but GPS went ahead and translated the documents for their guys.
*
I'm now working for another overseas airline (that reimbursed my ticket in cash the day after I arrived) and I'm not unhappy I didn't get the job with Hainan.* I just think you guys have a right to know in advance what to expect.*

GoForIt

[On Final]

Fellow Pilots,

Be careful using VOR losts of contact constraints.

Good Luck,

On Final

[Mercenario]

Who ever is thinking to go to JuneYao airlines, DON'T GO THERE:=. They don't respect the contract, they don't give you days off. You all will be 4 on and 2 off for the entire contract. Flights are turns but with the ground stop you start at 7:30am and you come back sometimes at 10PM. They don't care about duty limits or flying limits, you always legal to fly. About management, there is one
F:mad:r on pilot recruitment call Mr. Lee, that all he does is, how to screw foreign pilots, he is the one will never give you days off, he always will try to cut your salary down and will never approve anything that will be on the pilot side. The company is not organize, you go to any office you will see the whole mess in any desk and even documents on the floor. Pilot recruitment offices are very bad, they will call you any time to go to their office to submit documents and they want you to be there right away, later you get to a point that you don't care anymore. It will take you at least 6 months to see an airplane from the date that you arrived there, they are very slow to process any document. The offices buildings are very dirty, when you come back from flying at night you can see a lot of Rats next to the buildings and at the little parking lot, that fits at the most 20 cars. About fuel bonus they pay that like 4 months behind, if you make numbers it will take 6 months to start flying and the 5 more months to see your first fuel bonus deposit it is 11 months after you start working for them. OK fellows, I can spend all day long talking about JuneYao, but my only advise is, DON'T GO TO JUNEYAO AIRLINES:ugh:
VERY BAD COMPANY TO WORK FOR.:=

[On Final]

If you want to work in China.... for Hainan Airlines
Hello, This is a re-post which you may want to read. Good luck, On Final



Many people ask but seem not to believe so as a Foreign Pilot flying in China I can confirm this!

Now this is for Hainan Airlines (HNA) and are the highest and lowest Financial Penalties to date given to foreigners CPs flying here over the last 3 years! I am confident Schenzen Airlines CPs has similar stories to tell. Would be interesting to hear about the others.

CP Kye - $21800 fine for refusing to pay for his Haikou hotel for 3 weeks in advance during visa renewal. The Company claimed he striked and brought the Agent and HNA into conflict, was fined one month and his bonus, then terminated, no airline ticket home and never saw a penny from the Agent Brookfield.
(Standard practice to pre-pay for hotel when not on flight duty and refunds here take 3-12 months.)

CP Michel - "planned" $10,000 fine for an approach into X'iam where ATC communicated only in chinese and lead to a late go around. He went home for Leave shortly after the investigation (ATC filed) began and before the fine could be taken from his salary, was terminated 4 days later but his $12000 Bonus was never paid by GPS. The CAAC Blacklisted him in all of China for a so called "incident". I believe the Chinese FO was grounded for 6 months and lost his upgrade chance.

CP Song - $6,000 fine for a 2.0G Load landing in Kunming. Taken from his $12000 Bonus. Also his last salary was not paid by Agent Huaxin as he left and went to Schenzen.

CP Michel - $4000 fine for overspeed by 3 kts for 4 sec. Grounded over two months in 2008. Fine taken from $12000 Bonus. Broker did not get involved.

CP Slobidan - $4000 fine for failed a sim check, forced to pay to retake, then later was terminated in Aug. 2010 and never received his $12000 bonus from GPS.

These were the top four most expensive where no damage occurred to the AC and were either ATC created complaints or from the aircrafts QAR system. Again no damage, maybe a Phase 1 Inspection for the KMG landing but that is it!

I would think at least 30 fines have been issued against Foreign Cps since 2008 including below.

CP Luc - $1000 who called in sick as per OM in BRU and then turned off his phone. Replacement CP was given RMB 1000 bonus for accepting his flight.

Hungarian CP 767 - $1000 sleeping thru alarm and arriving late at the aircraft in PEK. No delay occurred!

The most ridiculous were:

Non-foreigner CP related, was a Purser for closing cabin door 1L on the 738 in PEK for departure, but forgot one crew member outside on the Ramp waiting for valuable cargo to be loaded - suspended 3 months (no pay), downgraded to normal CC and lost chance for upgrade from 737 to 330. This was internally dealt with by HNA.

CP Sul RMB 500 fine for not making sure the crew walked in a straight line behind him leaving the a/c walking thru PEK airport. I think at least 4 others followed including Chinese CPs.

Several CPs fined for RMB 500 for not wearing the Hat in the Terminal.

Sadly Chinese Crews Smoking in the crew lounge, crew bus, cockpit, or removing half of the trolleys contents (wine, beer, toiletries, etc.) after the flight = the most serious fine RMB 0!!!!!!!

Being given a "below standard grade" in a surprise sim check, leads to 40% salary fine and you fly the RHS. As in the case with CPs Carl, Avalino and Jean, this has been forced upon then since Sep. 2010. "Agent Brkfield writes "if you do not accept we shall cancel the contract"! There are all still waiting for a sim re-check in 2 weeks MAYBE.

Seems almost all Foreigners here (except new A330 Spanish and the 6x A340 Austrians) swallow everything at HNA they are deducted, UNLIKE the Air China 330 or Air Macau guys - who would never tolerate this.

But - this HNA and as usual when the market kicks in many of us will leave, most likely without Notice making the Expatriat imagine of Foreign Pilots even worse! That's because they have never paid the last salary or bonus to those who gave required Notice.

Standard practice that such fines are listed (including CP name) on the front page of the HNA Intranet Site for ALL to see for several days

[On Final]

Hello ExpressCa,

I like you idea but it might require more energy than I want to donate..hehe. I just try to check PPRUNE to stay tuned with the industry, mainly China. I noticed it is difficult to pull information good and bad for each airline because the many threads. If the Airline Better Business Bureau topic could ever become a place to quickly check before signing the first agency agreement that would be great. If someone wants to put together a voting system, names of airlines etc. go for it..! If you are happy or just pissed make your comments here the rest will take care of itself.

Good luck, On Final

[Black eyed pea]

:uhoh: Spring and Juneyao share the same common denominator, they are a simili private airline in China. ONE WORD : AVOID!

Juneyao is the worst, point blank, you can read all the stories, the fact is nobody represnts them anymore. Not even Vor Holding..that should give you a clue.

As for Spring, they have been hiring expats for the last six months, the main agency ther is aero global or something from Montreal.

They were suppose to have 60 expats, they have about 16, they fired about five and a few quit for all kind of reasons.

The pay is adequate but if you are form USA they will fail you. Once you have failed, you can not find work elsewhere in China. Only one has remined onboard form the USA but did failed his first attempt. Their fail rate for USA is 100% no joke.

If you pass and quite, they will not pay what is due, you will be threatened and intimidated until you give up ( 3 cases).

They don't de-ice as it costs too much, it was flamboyant to see them after three days of snow in Shanghai.

One ex-Air Canada guy has been doing 300 hours plus of line-indoc apparently not good enough for their standards.

Their pilots are generally very weak, jealous and envious. Management is there only for a quick IPO and they don't give a damn about the airline itself.

Spring Chinese pilots striked a few months ago which triggered the expats hiring. It created a very nice atmosphere I am told.

Not all chinese airlines are bad but very few renwew their contracts.

Capital is probably the best out there. I spoke to many of their expats and they seem happy. Sichuan and chengdu are doing a bit more apparently but hope that someone else than VOR holding represents them. The problem ther is not the Airline as much as the agency.

China is not for everyone, one thing for sure, if you are victim of an incident, regardless of the airline, you will be blamed and most probably jailed even if your first officer was at the controls.

To finish it off, Spring averages 3 hard landing a month, my airline in USa has around 900 aircrafts and we are lucky to do ten in a year. I was told that one was a 2.5 gs and they kept operating as if nothing happens. If you are an expat, it would be at least a 10 000$ punishment.

AVOID AVOID AVOID AVOID AVOID AVOID AVOID AVOID AVOID AVOID