Runway Caravans

[MightyGem]

Just read January's Airclues magazine. Two excellent articles in it; one about the wheels up landing of the Hawk at RAF Cranwell and the following article about how a Runway Caravan operator prevented a similar incident by firing off flares.

There was a Caravan at Cranwell, as the pilot referred to it. Did the operator notice the wheels up situation and fire off a flare?

[Al-Berr]

No flare was fired.........:rolleyes:

'Operator' was probably saving the flare for the next Tutor or Kingair who got within a couple of hundred feet of their 100' limit while on a continue :ugh:

[chevvron]

RCV 'controllers' are worth their weight in gold. I did my PPL course on Cessna 150s at Cambridge in 1971 where we shared the circuit with the Chipmunks of the resident UAS and AEF. The norm in those days was to make a call when taxying out, and another when closing down, the rest of the time you kept your own lookout.
Turning final for the east west runway one day, I heard a call 'Cessna on final are you aware of the Chipmunk below you?' I banked slightly right and sure enough could just see a Chipmunk about 200ft below. We had flown round the circuit, me with high wing and he with low wing, without seeing each other although I had made the requisite 'looks' to check before turning/descending etc and I'm positive he must have done so too.

[Alex HH]

The two incidents you refer to have pointed out that there are times, when most needed, that the support fails to turn up in good time.


Which is why I think that landing checks (including gear) should be the sole and unique responsibility of the captain, and that culture should be deeply instilled in training.

Backup systems tend to dissipate responsibility, as we saw in the Hawk incident.

[Bob Viking]

We should do checks and train people to do them correctly! After nearly 92 years of flying why hasn't the RAF thought of that?!
You should definitely be in charge!
BV:rolleyes:

[Runaway Gun]

Bob, he could run the army too:

"Now just shoot the bad guys, and don't get shot yourself. Ooh - and keep receipts for JPA..."

[airborne_artist]

Pretty easy to run the Navy too - "make sure you run a good cocktail party, destroy the bad guys' ships, don't get blown out of the water, and if possible avoid going aground.." :ok:

[orgASMic]

Spectacular early thread drift, chaps.

I take it that no-one from Cranwell Tower is available for comment. I can't find a hard copy of the accident report and it is not on FS website yet.

[ExBux]

Alex HH

'Backup systems tend to dissipate responsibility, as we saw in the Hawk incident'

Very noble words! I presume you will be taking the fuses out of your car's airbags and anti-lock brakes etc; that way you won't be more tempted to crash!!!:ugh:

At what point in the article did the pilot say that he had abrogated responsibility for checking the gear to the Caravan Controller? That's right, he didn't, he just screwed up!!

[MightyGem]

As for the Cranwell incident, having read the very honest explanation of how this came about from the Pilot's perspective, I'm left with the thought that either the Runway Controller or the ATC Supervisor has let the aircrew down.
Yes, that was my thought, although being an outsider, I was reluctant to state it.

[Cows getting bigger]

Those of us who fly in civvi street don't have the 'luxury' of a caravan controller. Personally, I complete four separate gear checks on both visual and instrument approaches. I haven't had a wheels up, yet. :bored:

Sure, the backup system (caravan) seems to have failed in this circumstance but I think airpolice is being a little harsh with his iPhone comment and Runaway (Freudian?) controller post which seems to have a bit of a personal, barbed tone. Maybe we should wait and see the 29 BOI recommendations. :hmm:

[Stitchbitch]

ExBux, you're not ExHarrrier as well are you? Good article if so ;)

[Widger]

While we are at it, we need to procure an airborne version of the caravan to chase the aircraft in order to ensure the pilot remembers to raise the gear when on a cross-country flight too!

[Raven30]

Personally, I complete four separate gear checks on both visual and instrument approaches. I haven't had a wheels up, yet. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wbored.gif..........and I hope you never do, however, the pilot in the Cranwell article did likewise and look what happened there!

Having worked in caravans for some years myself, I also wondered what the point of the Runway Controllers article was. I can appreciate that confessing to a near miss can sometimes help others, but I don't think there are many lessons in this one.

On a different note, I once fired a red when the lead of a 2 ship deployed his chute and it separated from the aircraft and ended up in the touchdown zone. I wasn't sure the No.2 would have seen it and considered it a significant hazard and sent him around. I was subsequently reprimanded by my boss for my actions - he claimed it was the pilots responsibility to decide whether to land or overshoot and not mine. I was not impressed but felt vindicated when the pilot rang me shortly afterwards to thank me!

[sitigeltfel]

IIRC, when the pilot called "Greens" the runway controller would toggle his Tx switch on the tower intercom box a couple of times to let the local controller know it was verified. Is this still current practice?

[Cows getting bigger]

There was also a system in JPs whereby the aircraft would transmit a beep if the gear was down (UPI?).

Raven30 - the Cranwell pilot didn't check his gear (he says as much). He thought he checked his gear. Spry sums-up very well - another Swiss cheese incident. Still, let us see the recommendations.

[BEagle]

Having done a fair number of post-major full air tests, admittedly on larger aircraft, I read the Air Clues article with mounting astonishment.

One thing you never do on an airtest is to try to cut corners or be pressed for time. If there isn't time to complete all items in one trip, then you simply have to fly a second.

To leave yourself so short of fuel that only a non-standard wheels-up ILS at Waddington, followed by a brief visual transit to Cranwell was the only way of squeezing everthing in seems fraught with risk to me - particularly as Cranwell has a busy, mixed traffic circuit.

The lack of GPS was hardly mitigating; Hawks have been air tested since long before GPS was invented. A suitable TACAN box or radial crawl should have been sufficient. PPPPPP!

That the air test notes were in a clumsy format is certainly something which needs sorting, I would entirely agree.

Hindsight, I agree. But was this more a press-on-itis issue rather than a holes-in-the-cheese issue?

[chevvron]

Raven 30; was your boss at the time new at the job 'cos in my opinion you did nothing wrong by alerting the pilot to a potentially hazardous situation; I myself have sent people round when a previous landing aircraft has jettisoned on the runway.

[Squawk7143]

Airpolice


Perhaps, given his long and unremarkable history in ATC it's just as well he's no longer in the wheeled greenhouseand

Much later, at the relocated Eastern Radar, I noticed his skill set was still a bit restricted.That's quite a pair of statements....

Oh and for the benefit of the audience, no I am not the runway controller in question nor do I know him in any capacity.

I have never been a runway controller....nor have you Airpolice for that matter. I am not quite sure where your expertise in this area comes from? I presume it must be vicarious.

Perhaps you should pay heed to your own analogy and remember that greenhouses are made of glass.

I am not going to comment on the Cranwell incident or the Air Clues article because like you, I have never been a runway controller, or military aircrew. So I will leave commenting to those who have.


Perhaps you should do likewise?

[orgASMic]

Is anyone able to quote the accident report's findings on the actions of the Runway and Local Controllers?

They might answer the question at the top of the thread.

[Raven30]

Raven30 - the Cranwell pilot didn't check his gear (he says as much). He thought he checked his gear

And that was my point! complacency can bite anyone.

chevvron,

My boss was fairly new, however he had been at the unit longer than me and as a Sqn Ldr, time in post should be irrelevant. I know I did the right thing, it was his reaction that shocked me!

[VP8]

sitigeltfel

IIRC, when the pilot called "Greens" the runway controller would toggle his Tx switch on the tower intercom box a couple of times to let the local controller know it was verified. Is this still current practice?

You are quite correct as an Ex RWC we used to get one bip at 8 miles and one at 3 or 4 miles and we would reply with two bips to the Local Controller. Only remember two red flare waveoffs in my career........


Veeps

[spekesoftly]

There was also a system in JPs whereby the aircraft would transmit a beep if the gear was down (UPI?).
Yes, UUPIs (Ultrasonic Undercarriage Position Indicator) gave three beeps on the tower frequency when the pilot transmitted with U/C selected down, and was I believe the invention of Mr Jeff Jefferson, a civilian Electronics Engineer employed at RAF Linton-On-Ouse. As an additional safeguard and indication for the Caravan Controller, JPs had a small white light on the aircraft nose that flashed continously when the gear was down. The SOP at night for JP pilots was to ensure that the nose mounted landing light was OFF when on final(s), otherwise the U/C light could not be seen.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

The RAAF Mirage IIIs in the Far East in the late 60s also had a tone-button linked to the gear position. "Finals 3 Greens" was followed by a "beep" on the frequency.

[ASCOT Ops Retd]

sitigeltfel

IIRC, when the pilot called "Greens" the runway controller would toggle his Tx switch on the tower intercom box a couple of times to let the local controller know it was verified. Is this still current practice?

You are quite correct as an Ex RWC we used to get one bip at 8 miles and one at 3 or 4 miles and we would reply with two bips to the Local Controller. Only remember two red flare waveoffs in my career........


VeepsMy caravan TORs were slightly different - we would acknowledge on the Hadley Box when the controller transmitted 'Radar traffic, 4 miles, to [option]' - it wasn't confirmation on seeing the gear.

It's also worth mentioning that comms were traditionally quite bad between the Caravan and Tower, as they were plugged in and out every day - GRSF spent a lot of time fixing a variety of gremlins. On one occasion a Tornado was the last recovery of the night to Bruggen and in misty weather he'd turned off the landing lights without saying so. After a couple of failed attempts to contact the tower via intercom, Hadley Box and phone, I opted to transmit 'check gear, check gear' on the selected frequency - which didn't get a response either. Result: I fired a red and the jet had to divert to the UK for the weekend due to being bingo fuel. The crew apparently phoned up from the UK to complain about the red, and how the aircraft's location now screwed up exercise blah blah blah, totally missing the point of how I could have saved their neck if they had no wheels, yet all they ever needed to do was mention 'no lights'. My fault though, of course...

[VP8]

Correct Ascot twas the good old Hadley box:ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

Airpolice

That's quite a pair of statements....

Oh and for the benefit of the audience, no I am not the runway controller in question nor do I know him in any capacity.

But I do know him and have been his boss. I have PMd Air Police and am happy to say that he has edited the post.

[Peter Carter]

Who needs runway caravans?
After all, many aircraft have gear warning horns......

YouTube - Whats that beeping sound? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YffmapFxt0M)

:rolleyes:

[vecvechookattack]

Good video....It just goes to show doesn't it?

[Jig Peter]

That's the first time I've heard the proverbial "expensive grinding noise", despite many a year of aeroplane driving ...
B U T there's also the old adage: "There are just two kinds of pilot - those who've landed wheels up, and those who haven't yet".
:ouch: