How To Reduce Airforce To 31,000

[Phoney Tony]

The new pension scheme is designed to improve/maintain the numbers of personnel staying to retirement points. If you leave early your lose money in the short term (I am aware we get it back if we live to 65). Why not just let those who wish to go now, go collecting the full gratuity and pension to which they are intitled. This must save money and achieve what is required in terms of natural wastage. I am sure someone will pop up a say the current pension rules are not designed to improve retension but that is the effect. Also reduce flying pay, another retension tool, and get rid of PAS, for which I see little benefit other than retention.

Talking to chaps in the crew room, many would go if they did not loose the 25% of gratuity and pension.

The aircrew, both non-PAS and PAS have different views of the FP and PAS suggestion.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

If ever offered I would have to think long and hard about this, would have to do the sums, but initial thoughts are I would off be like a rat up a drain pipe

[Tiger_mate]

I would have to thi....., no job done, where do I sign, can someone turn my computer off for me: Doh; forgot, I havn't got one!

PAS: Leave well alone young man it has done its job for many people over a long period of time. Agree with the sentiment of letting loose though; gets my vote.

[getsometimein]

Flying Pay and PAS are both retention tools... Thats why aircrew get them...

No point spending upwards of 500k training someone to do a job only to let them leave after 3 years return of service.

Out of interest aircrew lose 50% of flying pay when they PVR/NGR as they havn't shown the retention.

[Mr C Hinecap]

The paring down of the rest of the RAF would take the hard work - the (relative) few aircrew to be lost would make far less of an impact.

[minigundiplomat]

Also reduce flying pay, another retension tool, and get rid of PAS, for which I see little benefit other than retention.


If we were disolving the RAF (which may be the case in the distant future the way things are going), then you may have a point.

However, although none of us know what's coming, I think the AT/SH fleets, a FJ fleet in some format, and Sentinel etc etc etc are still going to be required for a long time yet.

If you slash flying pay and bin PAS, then who is going to stay and deliver the continued capability?

a. Those that really want to.

b. Those that don't care about the money.

c. Nobody, because the cuts will take effect as the private sector is coming out of recession.

Answers on a postcard to Manning, HQ Air Command, RAF High Wycombe.

[Phoney Tony]

Tiger mate. Thank you. Not been called a young man for a while!

minigundiplomat. I guess I am thinking short term. We will soon have many aircrew and others sat around waiting for MRA4 and what ever replaces R1. Better those that wish to be allowed to leave, without penalty, than have them hanging around not delivering anything. In answer to your question, 'who is going to stay and deliver the continued capability?' I fall into the first 2 categories:

a. Those that really want to.

b. Those that don't care about the money.

Cheesey, I know but thats why I joined... in my day we had fun, were not tied down by H&S, JPA, DII and endless, mindless paperwork etc.

I'll get my coat!

[davejb]

minigundiplomat. I guess I am thinking short term. We will soon have many aircrew and others sat around waiting for MRA4 and what ever replaces R1. Better those that wish to be allowed to leave, without penalty, than have them hanging around not delivering anything.

Are you serious? Do you honestly think that having let the MR2 and R1 folk walk that you could have any reasonable capability this side of 2020 once the replacement aircraft are on the pan? Have you ANY idea how long it takes to build up the expertise in a role that we've always had to rely on due to our unerring ability to go into every war outnumbered?

Let's just get this straight, for anyone else visiting Pprune before going off to rattle an SDR off before lunch, having a capability on the front line is not just a matter of whisking people from their OCU to the squadron coffee bar - experience counts, and if you encourage all your old gits to leave en masse then your experience level will drop to zero, because it's the old gits who teach the young gits how to be good at their job rather than adequate. In wars it's that extra expertise that's the real force multiplier...

[Grimweasel]

DaveJb

Not a truer word said. In business, one of your competitive advantages over your rival comes from Knowledge. Many businesses get better at what they do and lower their costs from the very process of repetition; people get better at what they do through practice and this in turn lowers the total cost of unit per production cycle.

People who underestimate the power of knowledge and the creation of corporate 'know-how' really should not be in a position of authority. This is what is happening to the RAF.

[fergineer]

Davejb Good reply mate those in command and control really have little to no idea about how things work do they? Good luck to all up there next time back in the UK will try and get up there to see you.

[Geehovah]

And to reinforce the point, in business when you expand you can buy in experience

Sometime soon we'll catch on and realise that we have to generate experience internally and it takes time................. a long time

[cheesedoff]

I am sure that if the RAF carries on pissing about with general niff naff and trivia, showing no concern whatsoever for the people it employs. Then people will walk out of the door and find a career as a Mr, just like I have just done. An easy way to cull numbers. A prime example of planning for today and not tomorrow. Nice one....

[Diablo Rouge]

....and [Sometime soon you'll catch on and realisethat the Desk Officers play the numbers game for today with little regard for tomorrow, (because that is someone elses problem) and that forsight, emotion, nostalgia, logic or indeed common sense are not part of the solution. I have heard that 'Last Tour of Duty' is no longer recognised. Sadly I have also heard of Desk Officers looking after their mates which whilst understandable to a point is also well offside.

The quickest way the trim the numbers is to reduce the retirement age. Am I right in thinking that both Army and Navy say goodbye to the majority at age 40? I am sure I heard a starred officer about 2 years ago bleating about a young, fit air force with no regard whatsoever for 'experience'.

As the recession really ends and jobs pick up, I suspect that there will be no need to trim the air force, for I think that the staff will trim it for them.

[cheesedoff]

Outside [of the RAF] is a better place to be.....I enjoyed most of it, but you can keep it!

[Mick Strigg]

"many would go if they did not loose the 25% of gratuity and pension"

Under AFPS 05, you do not lose any of your gratuity if you leave early; in fact you get it twice (when you leave and again at 65), so you actually get 200% (untaxed)! This can more than make up for the reduction in pension by 25% (taxed).

[Phoney Tony]

davejb.

I am well aware of how you generate and sustain military capability and how long it takes; indeed I have seen 2 sets of DLoD working groups struggle to understand their responsibilities and work out how to finance the necessary changes.

If we are that short of money why not let those who wish to go without penalty, thus freeing up cash for those left behind.

Your comments about experience are spot on but, and it’s a big but, how are you going to keep the experienced folk interested and current if there is no equipment capability. Their experience soon loses its validity. As grimweasel states 'people get better at what they do through practice' for the next few years we will have big gaps everywhere.

Risk Management implies a degree of choice and ability to make decisions on alternate courses of action. Loosing several key capabilities reduces choice and forces reduced options. Thus you become less adaptable, less agile and inflexible.

[davejb]

but, how are you going to keep the experienced folk interested and current if there is no equipment capability

As far as Nimrod goes, then the simulator during a busy WW3 day has always been a damn good way to keep the grey cells working - whilst a simulator has its limits, so does real life.... it's far easier to put a crew into a tough tactical position in the sim than it is in real life, and a good thrashing in the sim frequently left me feeling rather more wrung out than most real life sorties did. (n hours in 807 attacking the radar buoy, and much of the acoustics training involved firing up ACT anyhow...)

What are folk going to do during the gap? Dunno, obviously the popular move would be a sim slot a week and 6 days off, which I doubt will be the chosen course of action - but if I had to rate good ideas then I'd pick that as better than sending folk to hold as spare guard commanders darn sarf, and holding anywhere as better than encouraging them to retire - when MR4 comes in we'll be needing experienced crews to enable them to get up to speed on the new aircraft, it'd be better if they weren't all doing Higher Landscape Gardening at Moray College at that point.

Fergie, sure - we could have a coffee...errm, well, maybe something a bit stronger....(as long as you don't sing - every time I've been with you in the vicinity of beer you've ended up singing...) PM me when you are in town...

[Phoney Tony]

How will you keep the support staff current?

[glad rag]

that the Desk Officers play the numbers game for today with little regard for tomorrow, (because that is someone elses problem)

Shocking, how long has this diabolical disservice to their sworn oath been going on? :hmm::rolleyes::hmm:

[Alex HH]

Why are the RAF still paying flying pay if it is for "retention"? It is not as if ex military aircrew are in any demand in civvy street. Even if you were lucky enough to get a job your pay would be considerably less than Flt Lt level in RAF. The copilots that I fly with get EUR1500 per month. If you think you would get a direct entry captain's job - dream on...

You get paid to be an RAF Officer - not a pilot.

[Alex HH]

Your point being? Have you really any idea how bad pay and conditions are currently for civ copilots? For sure, pilots with legacy airlines or on long term contracts are still doing ok - but you won't get a new entry job anywhere near those figures. If you banged out of the FJ fleet now, with say about 2000 hours, you would have to invest a fair wack to get civ basic qualifications, then you would have to either buy a type-rating or at least accept a long term bond on slave wages while repaying the "investment" the operator has made with you.

[minigundiplomat]

Why are the RAF still paying flying pay if it is for "retention"? It is not as if ex military aircrew are in any demand in civvy street.


Errr, yes they are. There are plenty of niche jobs about for those suitably experienced/qualified. Even more if you are willing to look outside the UK (as an awful lot of people are doing right now).

Ex-RAF Pilots are prevelant in companies such as Goldman Sachs, Mckinseys et al, mainly due to their abilities and experience.

So cut flying pay and do the banks recruiting for them. Makes sense if you come from Planet Senior Officer.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Have you really any idea how bad pay and conditions are currently for civ copilots?

My bold. Alex, are you suggesting we adjust the amount of flying pay aircrew receive on a daily basis, based on the current fitness of the employment market?

A mere 2 or 3 years ago, there were plenty of early-30s Flt Lts jumping ship to airlines various and arriving with roughly the same salary. I'm pretty certain in another couple of years it'll be the same.

Flying pay is also there for reasons other than "you might earn more than basic Flt Lt on the outside," you know.

[pr00ne]

minigundiplomat,

"Ex-RAF Pilots are prevelant in companies such as Goldman Sachs, Mckinseys et al, mainly due to their abilities and experience."

ER, as someone who has daily contact with such companies I can assure you that they are NOT!

Why on earth would they be?

[Tiger_mate]

I believe that there are a few, pehaps not as many as perhaps suggested.

As an aside, I remember how sick it made me feel that every member of the RAF could fit (seated) inside Old Trafford after joining a force of well over 100k. It must nearly be time that everybody could get a seat at Telford United!

.....which I suppose is better then the Navy at Gay Meadow!

[minigundiplomat]

ER, as someone who has daily contact with such companies I can assure you that they are NOT!

I think you need to widen your social network, or maybe you aren't in the circle of trust. However I am sure several wokka mates will be nodding in agreement when they read this.

[pr00ne]

minigunthing,

Not aware of any on the Board of Directors, nor on the Executive, nor heading up any departments. But then there are thousands of folk employed all over the City by them so I presume that Tiger_mate is nearer the mark when he says that there are "a few." With such a huge corporation you do "get a few" of almost any background you care to mention.

Not sure why ex helicopter crew would be so useful to one of the worlds largest investment banks.

[Gainesy]

mainly due to their abilities and experience."


= they drive the company's S76/Longranger

[Biggus]

Well, you could reduce the PVR waiting times for all trades to 6 months!


That would certainly be a good start!

[pr00ne]

Gainesy,

Why thank you, that does indeed make perfect sense.

I didn't consider the Chauffeurs.............

Next time I am 'chaffeured' by one I shall ask.

[Biggus]

In case I was being too subtle in post 30, or people don't know, PVR waiting times for all ground trades in the RAF was reduced to 6 months on 1 Feb 10.


Of course, another way of reducing the RAF to 31,000 is to drop the hint that it will be combining with either the RN or Army......:(

[Gnd]

Hint (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/AboutDefence/CorporatePublications/ConsultationsandCommunications/PublicConsultations/TheDefenceGreenPaper2010Discussion.htm) - here you go

[Alex HH]

My bold. Alex, are you suggesting we adjust the amount of flying pay aircrew receive on a daily basis, based on the current fitness of the employment market?



Yes. Isn't that what FP is for? You could cut flying pay to nothing now - it would save money with minimal effect on retention. There are NO flying jobs in civvy street at the moment, unless you are currently rated on (say) A330, and TRI/TRE to boot, and want to live in China.

MGD even makes the point that some ex-RAF pilots are now working in the city.

The situation *might* get better in around two years - but don't hold your breath. There is a huge amount of slack in the existing civvy pilot labour market at the moment, with experienced ATPLs working on low pay, RHS, instructing etc. They'll all be well ahead of ex-mil pilots coming onto the market in a couple of years time, no matter what your previous military experience (except maybe ex-Sentinel?).

[dash2]

Alex, I'm pretty confident that cutting flying pay would drastically effect retention (by 1 man anyway). Sorry to hear that there are few flying jobs out there but there is more to life. If the current work life-balance were to be significantly eroded, such as a large pay cut, then people would vote with their feet and get on with something else. If you leave to work in the city or anything else you are just as 'gone' to the RAF.

[DaveyBoy]

Good troll -- although I'm sure there really are people* sitting around in Handbrake House who, if tasked with reducing us down to 31,000 bods, would decide that the best thing to do would be to try and get rid of all the aircrew first by ****canning aircrew-specific retention measures. What do those flyboys all do, anyway? They take hours to respond to emails, their admin orders still have underlined headings and uppercase signature blocks even though they went out of JSP101 TWO YEARS AGO, and some days they don't even check their JPA workflows at all...

Dave

* you know the sort I'm talking about -- blue shirt, box crease, 10 secondary duties and 500 new emails sent per day to get their name noticed...

[Easy Street]

I'm totally with dash2 here.

When I was a brand new pilot I would gladly have worked for far less than a Fg Off gets paid - and getting flying pay was just a bonus! During the first few years of an officer's career, the pay and conditions compare favourably with other professions - long hours, unpaid internships,donkey work and cut-throat competition are all very common for new graduates seeking to climb onto the corporate ladder.

Later on, though, the pay doesn't reflect the increase in workload and responsibility, in my opinion. But people leaving to start a second career don't just do it for the money - some are looking to reclaim some family time, some have had enough of moving around every 3 years and want to put down roots, some just want to try something different in life.

Flying pay isn't tied to the health of the airline job market. Much more important is the cost to MoD of training aircrew (hence why WSOs and WSOps get flying pay as well). It doesn't matter what civvy careers aircrew go to - the point of flying pay is to encourage them to stay and maximise the value obtained from the expensive training. More experienced aircrew get more flying pay as they have built up a large pool of experience at even greater expense - it's even more in the MoD's interest to hang onto us.

[Strobin Purple]

proone,

easy, just ask him when you're washing his windscreen.

Seriously, why are you on a forum like this if you're so quick to denigrate the abilities of HM Forces aircrew. City folk do not have a great reputation at the moment for competence or professionalism - maybe that's why HM aircrew would be exempt from serving in exec positions in such illustrious company (ies). It's got to be a doddle after what I've done in the last 25 years. I might give it a go when I get my P45 from the service.:ok:

[pr00ne]

Strobin Purple,

Afraid that the going rate for a Barrister rather precludes our employment as washers of anything, well, anything physical that is!

Why am I on here? Well, I used to BE HM forces front line aircrew and was pointed here some years ago by a mutual friend.

As to denigrating said aircrew abilities, where did I do that? I spend most of my working days with merchant banks and the likes these days and the abilities of aircrew seem totally irrelevant to what they do. Hence I don't seem to meet any. Not denigrating, just a fact.

[Alex HH]

I'm with Pr00ne on this - generally for everybody it is getting increasingly hard to make substantial career changes mid-career. Partly it is due to the increasing use of recruitment agencies - unless your CV matches exactly their brief, you will not even go forward for interview. Partly it is also due to the massive increase in area-specific expertise required to be credible in management roles. A former RAF Sqn Ldr applying for a job running a city department would have no more credibility than an ex-banker applying to run an RAF squadron.

It is also getting harder (and likely to get harder still) for ex military aircrew to move into civilian flying. The company I fly for gets ex-mil CVs all the time - and (not my decision) they go to the bottom of the pile. The recruiters are not interested in how great a pilot you might be or how many military hours you may have - they look for a current type-rating, and hours of EU/OPS flying.