All Australian GA pilots annual award review 2009-10

[Paseopimp]

Hi all,
As you may of heard Fair Work Australia will be conducting its first annual wage review for 2009-10. I urge all fellow GA pilots to make a personal submission stating: Pay conditions, cost of living and cost of pilot training etc.

As per current AFAP award many pilots around Australia are still being paid close to minimum wage. If justification and pressure from submissions can be made there may be a chance for change in the industry. Details below:

Call for Submissions

Fair Work Australia, the national workplace relations tribunal, is conducting its first annual review of minimum wages in modern awards and the national minimum wage order. Any interested person is welcome to make a submission.

The closing date for lodging written submissions is 19 March 2010.

Full details of the review including the timetable for submissions, reply submissions, and post-Budget submissions can be found on the Fair Work Australia website: www.fwa.gov.au (http://www.fwa.gov.au/)

Submissions and inquiries can be emailed to [email protected]. Submissions may also be mailed to Fair Work Australia, Annual Wage Review, GPO Box 1994, Melbourne, Vic 3001.

[Johnny_56]

G'day

Has anyone tried doing this in the past? or is this the first year of it since K.Rudds changes?

Will AFAP be making a submission... (I will contact them also don't shoot me down!)

I think it's a great idea. I'm sure there are heaps of pilots around who complain about how poor the pay is, especially in low end GA/instructing (I'm one of them). It'd be good if we could all DO SOMETHING and maybe get it looked at, worst case scenario they say "no, $33000 is enough". They can't really reduce it that much more!

Anyway that's my two cents, i hope this thread doesn't get lost because no one can be bothered.

Cheers

[Ixixly]

Ok, so i'm reading through the Air Pilots Award on the FWA website...and its talking about things like:

" A pilot flying a turbo-prop aircraft will be paid 797% of the standard rate per annum.A pilot (excluding Fokker-28 pilots) required to hold and exercise the privileges of a Senior Commercial Pilots’ Licence or Airline Transport Pilots Licence by their company or CASA (or who operates under an exemption from holding that licence) will be paid 604% of the standard rate per annum"

and

"A pilot flying a turbo-prop aircraft will be paid 797% of the standard rate per annum"

now those percentages can't be right can they? I mean i'd LOVE to be able to earn that much but surely not?

[Horatio Leafblower]

The standard rate is (from memory) 1/800 of the annual SE CHTR salary.

If you multiply it out, it comes very close to the old instructor and IFR loadings from the old award. :hmm:

:ugh:

[mates rates]

No guys, you take the basic salary per annum divide by 52 then multiply by the % to find the add on to the basic salary.Divide by 800 for the hourly rate if your a casual.Very complicated,very cleverly worked out.It's SOOO good I got a 4cent per hour pay rise as a casual grade 3 !!!

[ballistix71]

Standard rate is defined in the front of the award. Basically all those 700% etc is just what your getting now. Why they just didn't use something like 7.34 x Standard rate etc is beyond me, but hey.

As for the AFAP, I'll let you know that both they and industry bodies were pushing to get an excemption to the reduced working fornight hours so as to keep the 90 hour limit. Be careful with dealing with them, in some respects I'm not too sure how much they really care about GA in the longer run. Btw the above comment was made to me when I rang them and spoke to one of their legal people regarding the definition of aerial work and if it covered flight instruction so it's not heresay.

[Johnny_56]

Good to see everyone is interested... very positive :ok:

Does anyone have a copy - electronic or otherwise - of previous pilot awards. Preferably from 5+ years ago to see how much the award has increased over the years.

I can get the 2008 version from the AFAP website, but no further back than that.

[inxs]

Here's your chance guys and gals - unite and drive it home. The AFAP never gave a damn for GA jocks, never have, never will. They get their big bucks from the majors, if any are affiliated.
I know that all of us are passionate about flying and career goals, but at what expense ? Employers know this and they are out to exploit you, to the max. Do not prostitute yourself to the lowest bidder as you all have to live, eat and breathe.
Base grade public servants minimum pay is approaching 40K - that speaks volumes (this is what a school leaver can expect straight out of school with no other qualifications). Thats what my kidz are getting and more +. Think about it....this your chance to make a respectable living out of GA and what you do as a PROFESSIONAL pilot. Otherwise the employer goes home with all the bacon.
Young rookies may not give a damn at this stage as they have stars in their eyes, but they may later on and wished they had voiced their opinion earlier in their career. In 5-10 years time if some are still left in GA and not given flying away (apart from those who make it to their dreams), they will be totally aggrieved by the whole GA scene like all the others that have preceded them over the years.
This is your big chance for all of you to make a difference to yourselves and the way you earn a living that you spent thousands training for ....do it, do it now !!!

[Horatio Leafblower]

I have dug up copies of the GA award from March 2004 (effective 27/11/03) and September 2005 (eff 31/03/05).

I will upload them and post links to them in due course.

The base salary for SE CHTR in 04 was $27,310

The average Australian income (based on Full-time private sector ordinary time earnings data on the ABS website) in Feb 04 was $50,700

The base salary for SE CHTR in 05 was $29,182

The Average Australian income in FY 05 was $51,802

The base salary for SE CHTR in 2010 is $33,173

The Average Australian income in Aug 09 is $61,328

Assuming that about 10% of our earnings are made up of allowances etc, you would need the base award salary of a DHC-8 Captain to make "average" Australian wages.

[apache]

Just out of interest, what was the MINIMUM wage in those years?

And, how many pilots ARE actually full time employed vs Casually employed?

[bonvol]

Employers know this and they are out to exploit you, to the max

They have been doing this for donkeys years and have honed their skills over this time to include pay for endorsements etc, etc.

I reckon they will continue to do so forever whilst there is an endless stream of wannabes who will work for bugger all or close to it to fulfill the dream. The same dream we all had once and who can blame them. They are young. If you are trying to get from bare CPL to the first job most will do just about anything.

Right now there is a thread over in the wannabes forum outlining the experiences of some poor bloke in Maun who is trying to crack his first job.

He is living in a tent and doing the "rounds" each day to try and get employed on anything with wings. And he is not alone.There are heaps of others there trying to do the same.

In our neck of the woods countless wannabes do similar and head north each year trying to get a job. The cycle repeats year after year.

For the employers though it all comes down to supply and demand.

For as long as I can remember (40 years) the supply has nearly always exceeded demand. I can't see it changing any time soon so the chances of improving T & C's are, shall we say, suboptimal at best. But no harm in trying.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Righto,

You take your base rate,
there seem to be a couple of typos here, so you multiply it by 7.32% (eg for CIR) and get a yearly full time rate for your duties.

Divide by 800 for the hourly rate if your a casual

Yes, you divide this by 800, but casuals also have a 25% increase to cover entitlements that aren't otherwise given. Like any legal document, read it fully.

Then there is a yearly uniform allowance ($277 odd PA or $5 something per week), 1.8% loading for night ops (+ a transport allowance) and plenty of other small add ons.

[Horatio Leafblower]

Just out of interest, what was the MINIMUM wage in those years?


The minimum wage in 2003 was $431 per week or $22,433pa.

In 2006 it was increased to $511.86/week, or $26,616

From the Fair Work website the minimum wage is currently $543.78/week, or $28,276 pa.

So from 2003 to 2010 the minimum wage has increased $5843 or 26%.

In the same period, the base rate for GA pilots has increased $5863, or 21%.

Our AFAP dues hard at work there :rolleyes:

[Horatio Leafblower]

G'day

Just to clarify - all the add-ons are pretty much the same. The comparison of the base rate is just comparing apples with apples.

- how do you know what the "average" is for allowances? If that could be calculated fairly it would be built into the award too.

Some questions for discussion:

- at what point do we think a pilot should be earning the "average" wage? Grade 3 Instructor? Grade 1 Instructor? Chieftain driver? Regional FO? Regional Captain?

- What sort of leverage should our training and qualifications provide? Why? (good arguments here please no emotional or irrational rubbish)

- CAO48 and fatigue systems limit us to 45 hours of work per week and no overtime, at all, ever. According to the ABS (http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]/bb8db737e2af84b8ca2571780015701e/0f152d0eab2c88bdca2571b000153da2!OpenDocument), about 42% of Australian males work more than 40 hours per week and 30% work more than 50 hours.
Should we be compensated for this loss of earning potential?

I can work a 60 hour week in underground coal mines, get paid $100/day just to drive to work, and clear $3000/week. All training expenses are paid by the employer and uniform supplied. I can tell you that you don't need a Cert IV in coal mining to make that money - a Cert IV in black coal mining will get you over $1000/day.

Discuss....

[Aerodynamisist]

Your right Horatio regarding the AFAP dues, GA pilots do not have an effective lobby group or representative organisation to go into bat for us when it comes to our pay and conditions. What we do have however is PPRUNE it's not much but only some of us follow Paseopimp's lead and make a submission which costs us nothing, hurts no one and requires no more effort than typing a post in here we may be able to affect some change. I'm not sugesting we could get a big change but an extra couple a grand a year would be a nice start..

[RENURPP]

If you are motivated to work in this area please DO NOT rely on any assistance from the AFAP. You will be sorely dissapointed.

Make the effort and write individually or contact your local TWU branch.

[RogerRamjet01]

Just bear in mind that should anyone want to make a submission to FWA then they are assessing the need for a rise in the award, which is a minimum entitlement, and so comparisons with the average australian wage are possibly not fruitful.

I fully understand that lots of guys and girls in GA are being paid at (or below!) the award, hence in reality the average GA wage may be very close to the award. And of course we'd all like to be paid something closer to the average australian income (or more... now there's a pipe dream).

I think Horatio has the right idea in comparing the change in the min wage vs change in the GA award over time. This would be good justification for substantial rise. Anyone know where to find historical CPI figures? I'm pretty darn sure the award over time hasnt kept pace with the cost of living but we need to SHOW it.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Horatio,

Yeah mate, I know, I know....wasn't having a go at you.

Was just making sure everyone was aware of the casual rate differences.
(25% is a lot, I think you'll agree to be missing out on)

WRT variations, I'd suggest either a slightly higher rate to allow for night/uniform allowances etc (Maybe $2/hr depending on workload) or lodging a pay claim at the end of each period as required?

[Horatio Leafblower]

The stats are all available on the Reserve Bank (http://rba.gov.au) website - follow the "Statistics" link.

I have just downloaded a spreadsheet that indicates the CPI has risen 28.2% since March 2003.

Going from that figure, the base salary (and remembering all the others are leveraged off the base figure) should be:

($27,310 x 1.282) = $35,011 (plus allowances)

[Johnny_56]

Horatio, thanks very much for your replys. Very useful.

I agree with some of the other posts that we should all (or as many as possible) make a submission individually - hopefully the more people who write in the more obvious the need for a rise, or a review at least, is.

Like others have said unfortunately the majority of GA operators pay the wage or slightly above if you're lucky - which is the BARE MINIMUM. If a review is conducted the award could only be adjusted up... it can't get much lower :hmm:

I think, and i'm no expert, that the more statistical data, like past award and CPI figures etc the better.

Thanks again guys, and keep it coming - the more people who jump on board the better!

[Paseopimp]

:ok: Thanks to everyone who has shown interest on this thread. There has been some good feedback and support. I yet again urge all GA pilots who view this thread to make a personal submission. Send emails in support of this thread to other GA pilots in the industry.. LETS GET THE BALL ROLLING FOR CHANGE.

[Charliethewonderdog]

I have some questions.

1. When was the Award first published?... I'm lead to believe it was around the early 80's.
2. How was the award calculated? was it compared to other professions at the time? or was it based on the industry standard's at the time?
3. Since it's conception what has been the yearly increase? and how does that compare to other professions like Teachers, Nurses, police etc....
4. Why is it the AFAP are the guardians of the AWARD?
5. Why is it that increases to holding a Commercial licence... ie.. medical costs, ASIC, documents etc... have not been included as a pay increase?
6. Why is it that the award never gets cpi increases?
7. Why is that Professfional pilots get paid well below the Average wage, when other profesions like Teachers and nurses get close to or the average wage?
8. Why has the AFAP traditionally sat on it's hands and never helped GA.

I think it's time for GA union and as an earlier poster suggested have it a a branch of the TWU.


All pilots whether in GA or Airlines should be lobbying the FWA to increase the award. It's in everyones interest to see the bottom of the tree get a increase.

[bushy]

I believe the AFAP negotiated the GA award in the 1960's. Ask Lawrie Cox. I know it was around about then, although it was hard to get a copy of it for a while.
Yes everyone should write to the FWA, but make it factual and realistic, so they take your submission seriously. The award should be higher. Too many people think flying an aeroplane is like driving a car. It's not.
But there is a bigger, underlying problem.

[bushy]

If GA is ever recognised as an important part of our essential transport service (which it is. It is essential in 90% of our country) then conditions may improve. When airlines start doing ab initio training, (maybe contracted out) and simualator training for their new pilots so they can have direct entry to airlines, then GA can become the stable industry with properly trained, happy, well paid pilots that it must be.
While it is only considered to be a training ground for tightarse airlines to get new cheap pilots from, then the whole industry (including the airlines) will slowly degenerate.
It's time our airlines put some money back into the system that supplies their new pilots.

[Charliethewonderdog]

does anyone have a link to the current AWARD?

[sundance222]

Air Pilots Award 2010 (http://www.fwa.gov.au/index.cfm?pagename=awardsfind) (3rd one down)

[Charliethewonderdog]

Just confirming that Aerial Application is solely for Agricultural type work... and that Flight training does not fall in this category.

And therefore does the the Award cover for only a 38 hour week?

24.2 Hours of work, days off and rest periods will be determined in accordance with the following provided that ordinary hours of work must not average more than 38 per week:

... and what would the deffinition of " ordinary hours of work" mean?

Is that duty? or does it not include Breaks?

Seeing that under Cao 48 you can work 90 hours a fortnight, if you did would you be entitled to work less the following weeks? or would you be entitled to over time?

[NOSIGN]

I was preparing a graph for submission several months ago. I haven't gotten around to it but here it is, it may save someone some time.

http://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss182/NOSIGN/Awardreview2-1.jpg

http://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss182/NOSIGN/awardreviewmeta.jpg

[Zoomy]

Then there is a yearly uniform allowance ($277 odd PA or $5 something per week), 1.8% loading for night ops (+ a transport allowance) and plenty of other small add ons


Trouble is you need to find an operator who has someone in payroll that knows how to apply these. Actually, someone who knows they exist and actually pay them. As long as there are people willing to work for free or crap pay like the award, operators will always treat us like SH%T!!!!!!!!!!

[Charliethewonderdog]

Thats why they should just add these to the salary... atleast then they would have to pay it.

In this day and age if you get paid below the award you dont deserve to be called a professional.

[Aerodynamisist]

Yep good call Charlie and zoomy add $300 to the base wage, remove the uniform allowance make things lees complicated, simplified for small business.

[Johnny_56]

G'day again,

This thread seems to be slipping away... does this mean no one is interested?

Has anyone made a submission yet or is seriously going to? It seems most of the guys that i talk to want to just sign a group letter.

If anyone has made one or is thinking about it, or if anyone has done something similar in the past what should be included - just my personal situation or my perceptions of the industry or lots of figures or a mixture. Any help would be much appreciated.

Nosign, nice graph... where did you get your figures from? do you have copies of the awards you refer to?

[NOSIGN]

Johnny,

thanks. From memory, I downloaded or viewed the various awards from fair work Aus website.

ap792332 (http://www.fwa.gov.au/documents/histories/AP792332.htm)

I have also had awards emailed to me via afap.

:ok:

[Rich-Fine-Green]

Good Luck to all Pilots out there who may get a proper pay increase. I hope it happens.

Of course there is always good and bad sides to pay increases;

Operators can not absorb these costs. The margins are just not there (as proven by the recent demise of SFTC and Aerospace).

A large increase in Pilot pay will result in a large increase in the cost of learning to fly and air charter etc.

My guess is Australia will soon completely price itself out of the local and international training market as countries such as the USA, New Zealand and South Africa have Pilots who work for a lot less (in some cases NZ$10 per hour!).

My comments are not against a wage increase - just a forecast of what may happen to costs here.

Australians may soon go to New Zealand for a PPL or CPL in the same way Europeans go to the USA and South Africa.

Current Example NZ vs. Australia:

Auckland Aero Club

AA1-C trainer: NZ$152 per hour (A$121)
Instructor: NZ$50 per hour (A$40)

Royal Queensland Aero Club

C152: A$208 per hour

Instructor: A$99 per hour

[Johnny_56]

Hey Rich,

Yeah i agree that a pay increase would obviously create additional commercial pressures on GA companies, the same way that increase fuel/maintenance/whatever costs do. I understand that the cost of flying would have probably have to increase to cover it.

However, unfortunately, we do not have the final decision as to whether we get an award increase. All we are asking is for some board to consider reviewing it. It's up to them to make the final decision as to whether or not they even review it let alone adjust it.

I think it's at least worth asking the question... and surely the more people asking the better.

[bushy]

Many GA pilots do not care much, as they think they will be in an airline soon. They have no interest in improving GA.
That apathy will bring poorer conditions.

[Charliethewonderdog]

With a strong union pressure can be put towards NZ Casa to fix there pay problems or risk NZ pilots be black listed in Australia. This would hurt NZ pilots initially but would help them in the future.

Seriously NZ pilots are a bit a cancer on this industry... If you dont want to paid as a professional... PLEASE F -OFF and go do cleaning or something:ugh::ugh:.

China Southern and other flying schools in WA pay almost twice he AWARD... so pilots wages when it comes to winning large Chinese contracts dont seem to be a huge problem.

[Rich-Fine-Green]

Johnny_56:

I'm all for a more livable pay for Pilots. I'm just speculating on the future as Australia prices itself further out of General Aviation - compared to our near neighbour in particular.

Even before any potential increase in the Pilot award, The Auckland Aero Club is nearly half the price of RQAC for a basic dual flying lesson!.

AAC: A$161 dual p/h vs. RQAC A$307 dual p/h.


Charlie:

I'm not an expert on New Zealand Industrial Relations, however, i'm sure the NZ CAA has a similar detachment to Pilot pay as CASA does here.

Blacklisting is unrealistic. It's not the fault of Kiwi Pilots. All I have flown with are highly professional. They do not have any kind of award system in their Industry.

I would suggest there are more 'cancerous' Aussie pilots in the Industry. At least here there is an award - therefore no excuse for Aussie Pilots to work for low pay.

(BTW: Im not a Kiwi)

NZ just has a different system to Australia. It seems to work for them or the Kiwis would change it.

Just in the same way Australia can not manufacture cars without Govt. subsidies.

It's a modern economic reality. When Industries become unviable, they wither and die.

Australia may soon (5-10 years time) have very few flying schools. Charter companies may survive better.

Some schools such as China Southern WA may continue as their parent company is China Southern Airlines.

[Zoomy]

OK,

If you want to compare apples with oranges, go right ahead.

But before we do, how about we look at all of the other costs involved.

ie.

The dodgy manager who takes home quite a bit for not a lot.:mad:

Fuel prices:eek:
Airservice charges - AF about $20 out of the $32:eek:
Landing fees:uhoh:
Maintenance costs:eek:
Insurance costs:ugh:
Admin costs:8

It seems to me everyone in this game is allowed to put their fees up and no one gives a hoot, but as soon as a Pilot wants more money, jeepers creepers no, we can't do that.:ugh:

What we as pilots need to do is start having a say in the way the Govt has and is continuing to increase costs through CASA having to pay for itself. We got them to reduce the medical fee to $75, lets get them to abolish it, the Doctor did all the work and he/she is a delagate, (well sort of).:yuk:

What I am trying to say is that we must reduce costs and become more efficient to keep a decent pay packet.:ok:

[Rich-Fine-Green]

Zoomy:

Here's your first port of call:

The Hon Anthony Albanese MP
Minister for Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Local Government.

PO Box 6022
House of Representatives
Parliament House
Canberra ACT 2600
Tel: (02) 6277 7680
Fax: (02) 6273 4126

Email: [email protected]

[Rich-Fine-Green]

CP:

I have used both organisations in the last 3 months.

AAC and RQAC rates quoted are correct (non-member) walk-in solo and dual rates.

RQAC:

GST is extra. i.e $208 solo plus GST.

However, if you pay $308 first year joining fee, the C152 solo rental rate drops to $173 per hour plus GST.

Add $99 for the Instructor. (plus GST).

Call RQAC to confirm: 07 32753244

[Zoomy]

Thanks RFG, Did that 2 years ago, am also in discussions with local member. :ok:

If you want to pay $40 per hour go right ahead, NZ is just over the ocean .

I have seen the results of their instructor rating couse and take it from me $40 an hour is probably about right.:ouch:

[flyboy_nz]

[QUOTE]I have seen the results of their instructor rating couse and take it from me $40 an is probably about right.[QUOTE]

Have you actually gone through a Instructor Rating course and flight test in NZ or just seen Kiwi instructors who have come over to Australia and just started work? Mate, you gotta remember these guys have just moved over and the rules and procedures are different. It takes a little time for everyone to adjust:}

Mate, I do think the Instructor Rating flight test in NZ is a lot harder than Auz, especially the Grade 1 flight tests (Category A) - which include aerobatic instruction and night instruction.

In regards to the wages, I am employed on a casual basis and only get paid when I fly. It's quite sad that when I am not flying, I am still doing work - progress sheets, looking after students... But, I don't get paid for that.

[Charliethewonderdog]

No use complaining here "mate" .
But thanks for bringing to light how poor the conditions are.

You either simply blame the people before you for making the conditions they way they are today.... or you can do something about it..... There is a reason why you NZ pilots get paid crap even when you finally "make it to those poor paying jobs like Pacblue. Jetconnect and JetstarNZ...,,,, it's because you are willing to work for crap from the start and and are happy to take it up the clacker...

Seriously grow some balls and stand up for what you deserve.

[Superfly Slick Dick]

The idea that if instructors and pilots get paid more, less people will be able to afford it could have a reverse affect. Perhaps, if the industry was more appealing, it could attract more people to the industry? Just a thought.
Regardless, I actually had a plumber do 3 hours of work for me the other day. He was installing a dishwasher, sink plumbing and a gas cook top. It cost me $600. 3 Hours work ! (I supplied the parts too)
He told me that to become a licensed plumber, you need to do 6 years, and made a joke as to that was why he could charge like a doctor.
Well... I finished my training in 2003, my first job in May 04, Ive been working for 6 years in the industry and working as a Grade 1. 4 Instrument Renewals, 2000 hours. Ive never earnt more then $47K. (not to mention I earnt less then 20k the first several years as an instructor)
Why would anyone pay out $60 000 for pilot training if you could earn twice p.a. (very easily) being a plumber !?
The industry needs to change, and having pilots donate their time to hour accumulation only feeds the greedy at the top. I think we all need a little more pride. No one can fly planes without pilots.

[Lawrie Cox]

Due to some misunderstandings about the processes we publish the following as an example of what needs to be considered.

The annual wage review process has generally delivered wage increases to all federal awards expressed as a percentage or flat dollar amount. For example, the 2008 review resulted in a $21.66 per week wage increase across all awards.

The annual wage review process is not designed to grant different wage increases to specific awards (such as the Air Pilots Award). Rather, award wages are increased by the same amount across the board.

As the annual wage review process does not empower Fair Work Australia to make specific increases for pilots, the AFAP does not intend to make submissions to the tribunal.

Recent changes introduced under the Fair Work Act have strengthened employee rights to negotiate enterprise (collective) agreements. The reality is that better wages and conditions for pilots are achieved through this process. As such, the AFAP will continue to seek to improve pilot wages through the negotiation of enterprise agreements.

In future Fair Work Australia will implement a timetable to review the content of modern awards. The AFAP will be actively involved in this process. It needs to be remembered that the Federation is the only pilot body that actively pursues the Award reviews and has done so since the creation of Awards. The AFAP was the union which initiated award coverage in the first place and will continue to fight on for General Aviation as well as other sectors in years to come.

Air Pilots Award

Salaries contained in the Air Pilots Award 2010 are based on a 38 hour working week. Pilots wanting to work beyond 38 hours may seek additional remuneration through the terms of an individual flexibility agreement or an enterprise agreement. The AFAP is available to assist members in this process.

If you wish to proceed with a submission to the wage review panel I suggest you refer to previous submissions made by the Australian Council of Trade Unions as a guide.

I have provided a link below to the ACTU’s 2009 submissions as an example:

http://www.fairpay.gov.au/NR/rdonlyres/B702BAD0-C20A-4387-A99F-4D8DBE5CED0C/0/ACTU_submission_2009.pdf

It is not as simple as writing a letter to FWA to get a specific wage increase please also note that whilst we are so busy cutting each others throats the companies get on with the job. It is entirely in your hands.

Lawrie Cox
Manager - Industrial Relations
Australian Federation of Air Pilots

[Charliethewonderdog]

Thanks for taking the time to add to this Thread Lawrie.

I would like to ask you if you could compare the increase in the Pilots Award wages compared to say a teachers award wage or a Nurses award wage since the 80's.

I would guess that the conditions of teachers and nurses have increased substantially more over the last 25 years then that of the Pilots award.

I would also ask how much the Pilots award has increased due to other increased expenses such as medical costs, document costs and the increase cost in obtaining a licence. Ie. Licence test fees, Exam fees...etc.. etc.. Basically nothing has been adjusted to the Award to cover these added expenses. I ask why?

I also ask why it is a flat dollar amount.... and why pilots that fly bigger planes or have higher qualifications receive the same flat rate... in-affect they are taking a percentage decrease in pay.

It seems the process that the AFAP uses to increase the Award for all pilots is simply except what the FWA seems fit for ALL other awards. I for one regard our PROFESSION a little higher than a person who works in the hospitality industry or cleaning industry and they seem to receive the SAME increases.... Is there something wrong here?

I suppose the answer lies in where should a a Flying Instructor sit in the pecking order? Should a grade 3 flight instructor get paid less than the person at the front desk answering the phone who is covered by an award that rewards them more?.... is there something wrong with this.

As a representative of the AFAP and a union delegate that should be working for increasing pilots condition do you think that " there is something wrong here?

I for one do and I ask you how we should go about fixing this situation of poor pay and conditions of our profession? Is the AFAP willing to lobby for us or is this something that "we" have lobby for our selves? if so then what is your role?

Seeing that the APAP has traditionally negotiated the GA AWARD would it be fair to say that our conditions have deteriorated since the 80's ... ie CPI and the added costs as mentioned above?

When a fully qualified Flight instructor gets paid $35,000 a year and a bus driver earns $55,000 a year then there is something seriously wrong.

PS. no offence to bus drivers, but you guys are just over paid Taxi drivers.


Looking forward to your reply Lawrie...

[Charliethewonderdog]

The idea that if instructors and pilots get paid more, less people will be able to afford it could have a reverse affect. Perhaps, if the industry was more appealing, it could attract more people to the industry? Just a thought.
Regardless, I actually had a plumber do 3 hours of work for me the other day. He was installing a dishwasher, sink plumbing and a gas cook top. It cost me $600. 3 Hours work ! (I supplied the parts too)
He told me that to become a licensed plumber, you need to do 6 years, and made a joke as to that was why he could charge like a doctor.
Well... I finished my training in 2003, my first job in May 04, Ive been working for 6 years in the industry and working as a Grade 1. 4 Instrument Renewals, 2000 hours. Ive never earnt more then $47K. (not to mention I earnt less then 20k the first several years as an instructor)
Why would anyone pay out $60 000 for pilot training if you could earn twice p.a. (very easily) being a plumber !?
The industry needs to change, and having pilots donate their time to hour accumulation only feeds the greedy at the top. I think we all need a little more pride. No one can fly planes without pilots.

Well put....

The industry has supported huge increases in other costs like Airport charges, maintenance and of course fuel. Yet still people learn to fly.

There is no reason why the industry cant support an instructor getting paid the average wage which is ow over 55k a year. For to long our industry has talked it's value down... It's time we grew some balls and got what we deserve.

A driving Instructor gets paid more... WHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A trainee train driver or a Tram driver gets paid more whilst they under go training(usually 12 months) then a self funded Qualified flight instructor....WHY!!!!!!!!!!
Is it because their union actually fights for their increases???

Is there something wrong here?????? I think so...

[Mach E Avelli]

What is wrong here is that most people who want to be pilots initially want to do it to stroke their own egoes, pull chicks, or have a thrill. Like any love affair the thrill soon wears off, and hopefully with maturity ego is brought under control - or at least cleverly concealed.
But most chicks will still dig pilots before plumbers (silly girls, if only they realised where their future lay....). But so far I have yet to meet a pilot who would give up flying to put his hands down someone's blocked bog. 50 bucks an hour to fly an aeroplane against 200 to clear stuck turds ?Aeroplanes 1; turds nil.

And hey, don't shoot the messenger.

[Charliethewonderdog]

And from your post and you enhanced our position how?...

[Lawrie Cox]

Charlie
Lets begin with some fundamental facts Comparative wage arguments were removed by the courts in the 80’s.
I agree that certain groups have moved their wage groupings in advance of ours you note that teachers, nurses, police, firies etc... are predominately the State public service areas as against us in private industry with a multitude of employers.
The Federation has many times run cases for increases in allowances and/or salary this occurred often using ex GA now Airline pilots to give evidence on the issues confronting our GA membership.
The Legislation has also often restricted us as well in that you were not able to run work value cases separately for a number of periods and further when you could it was so constrained on the measurements the margin was not significant.
As an example when the Awards were ‘stripped back’ we had to measure a pilot as against a trade level in the Metals Award. We argued that you should not be pegged at was C10 but at C7 which was a specialist trades level. We were opposed by the employer groups and the measurement came through at C10 trades level.
As an industry we do not show up in the standard qualification measurement used as greater than a trade and currently still do not show ratings/licences as formal qualifications (education standard which in my view ought to at least be tertiary). It is this basis that will improve the argument for greater return on the pilot investment in your own education which is never acknowledged by employers/Governments/Media/public.
We as a body spend a lot of time and resources on that argument which often falls on deaf ears.
Back to the Union: the body is a pilots organisation it is up to pilots to play a role not for me as an employee to set the agenda. If pilots want change or a specific policy get off your backside and play a part in the Branch or Council you belong to. An effective union is one that is made up of a group of united pilots going in one direction not a bunch of splinters shooting off at random. There are times when not everybody will agree on a direction but you have to compromise to get a better outcome. As history has shown whilst we fight each other we leave the boss alone (and that is often a disaster).
The Federation is the only pilots body in the country that does provide for input totally as professional pilots whether just starting out or as a long term airline member. We do not set our overall agenda based on the Company we work for it is about time pilots got back together and realised the challenge is not who is better but working together to get a better overall outcome for all professional pilots.
Lawrie Cox
Manager – Industrial Relations
Australian Federation of Air Pilots

[Wally Mk2]

"Mach" I had to have a laugh at yr comments re pilots pulling chicks. As silly as that sounds me 'tinks that still applies in some young guys heads. Go to a bar & tell a chick that yr a plumber, observe reaction (the sniffing action of one said girl says it all!). Same bar same chick tell her yr a pilot, use protection.................I rest my case!:} Oh BTW as pilots we must have 2 bank accounts all thru life, one 'she' doesn't know about or her lawyer for that matter:}

Simply put aviation is a 'game' for those that love to fly & have a real passion for it, remuneration although obviously needed isn't the main reason as to why most pilots want to fly in the first place. Of course there is the exception to the rule there with no doubt some training organizations "selling" off that there's big money to be had at the top of the tree......well perhaps but the top of the tree is getting pretty thin money wise & job security wise but the big shiny jet still 'reflects' hope to those genuine star-y eyed kids:-).
We have a land mass similar to the States where air travel is the only way to get around in a timely manor, we have approx 1/12th of their population hence a lot less money to go around even tax wise, you go figure it out!

Am glad I am at the other end of my flying career, I'd hate to be young now & trying to get thru it all although if I only knew what I know now standing at the alter (of sacrifice):}.

Wmk2

[Johnny_56]

G'day Laurie,

Thakns very much for taking the time to post and provide some facts re AFAP and the award. It seems that the FWA submission may not be the way to go, at least not to provide a substantial increase in the award.

I think most agree that the $34000 provided for in the award is pretty low and should be increased. If it isn't possible through a award review what would be the best way to see an increase?

I have been told that Enterprise agreements are the best way to argue for more money etc, however there is a perception amongst pilots, me included, that to go to our employer and start pushing for more money is like putting our necks on the chopping block and may curtail our progression in the industry. Rightly or wrongly this perception stops pilots from going through this process, so we, as other have said, keep our mouths shut and keep looking for the next job - and the cylce repeats. Due to this reluctance to push for EBA's the award unfortunately remains what most pilots, especially in GA/instructing get paid.

You mention in one of your posts about comparing pilots to tradies, at least in terms of qualifications, and that this has a bearing on award setting - and that your arguements re award increases have fallen on deaf ears - Whose ears? Are they ears that we, as individual pilots, could be shouting into to be heard? These may seem like stupid questions, but my understanding of industrial relations is pretty poor.

The idea that just because our job is 'fun' should somehow allow us to be poorly paid is rediculous. Thats what our employers seem to rely on. I'm sure other people have 'fun' at work and do not have to endure salarys in the 30 grand range.

Anyway guys, thanks for the clean'ish discussion, it's all good stuff!

[Charliethewonderdog]

Again thanks Lawrie for your explanation. I have rang the AFAP in the past and the person I spoke to at the time had little or no knowledge of the history of the award. Your insight has has helped me understand how the award has come about and Knowing now that the Award is pegged to a specialist trade level C10 (doesn't mean much to me) atleast allows us to argue why we should get paid more.

The question is should we get paid more? and I suppose the answer lies in the arguments that us as pilots can use to compare us to a C10 level trade specialist.

I do think the Federation should be more active in GA. It seems the AFAP is membership driven, and will act on the members behalf which is fair enough. Having a relative low membership rate in GA seems to be an excuse not to have a strong presence in GA. I've always felt that the AFAP is more interested in it's members in the higher earning type jobs and uses it's resource to benefit them. Again fair enough.

Having spent a fair bit of time in GA in the past though , I never once met a AFAP delegate. Never was I approached to join or never was I invited to a seminar or meeting explaining the benefits of being in the Federation.

I dare say a high proportion of pilots only join when they are required to be in an EBA or such.... or to get loss of licence.

I really believe that the AFAP should have a stronger presence in GA and flying schools and educate new commercial pilots in the importance of being a member.

Having a delegate do a road show and visiting airports and talking to pilots for the purpose of educating them on the importance of AFAP membership would be a great way to increase membership, especially if it included talks from AFAP members that are Airline pilots or Aeromed pilots.

Also reducing membership costs for low paid pilots and maybe wavering the initial joining few to Pilots that Join within 12 months of gaining there commercial.

All in all I feel that the AFAP could do alot more self promotion, and should do more to encourage pilots in GA to become members.

[hardNfast]

Having a delegate do a road show and visiting airports and talking to pilots for the purpose of educating them on the importance of AFAP membership would be a great way to increase membership, especially if it included talks from AFAP members that are Airline pilots or Aeromed pilots.

Agreed. About two years ago I remember Qlink did a road show all over the country which included major GA areas. Most pilots turned up just to hear what they had to say. Afap could do the same.

[hueyshuffle]

Not too sure what to make of the somewhat barbed 'kiwi's get paid peanuts because they don't do anything about it' etc...We don't have an award system. And our minimum wage is a helluvalot lower..(oh i forgot...we're getting an extra 25 cents an hour starting sometime this year...). 12.75 isn't very much.

But then we don't have the options fresh Aussie CPLs do. There's no Broome or NT here. Either you know someone, you start instructing, or you stack shelves. So we work for peanuts. If you've got a solution RE: getting paid what we're worth, please share.

In terms of AFAP...I can't see anyone here singing their praises and you guys are better off than we are! ALPA (nz) is probably worse. If they recognized their responsibility towards NZ GA pilots they 'might' do something about it (and I can safely say most NZ GA pilots are not happy with their payscales). In the meantime, as I've just discovered: the award for a grade 3 in Oz is more than what most B-cats (grade 2) make in NZ. Even if they're training Multi IFR students.

I'm all ears for solutions...then again perhaps I'm being a bit hasty..I think I'm the first NZer to say 'yep, we're getting a raw deal on this side of the ditch...' Speak up fellas

[Paseopimp]

Thanks once again for everyone’s input on this subject. Still urge all readers to submit to FWA. As we can see this thread is ever evolving into a discussion which encompasses all issues affecting pay, conditions and AFAP's role in GA. As Mr Cox has mentioned in previous posting, it’s up to us as GA pilots to lobby for change and to take a proactive role in the AFAP. The more we start working together and less against, the more change will hopefully occur i.e. pay.
Here is a link on the recent Aviation White Paper which the government published in Dec 2009. It’s a good read and discusses foreseen issues within GA in the future.
A National Aviation Policy Statement - the Aviation White Paper (http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/aviation/nap/)

[Charliethewonderdog]

I still maintain that instructors should be paid wages similar to TAFE teachers as they do the same job without the perks.

That will either win members or lose them. If I was shepherded into a classroom for some unionist to come and lecture me, I'd point blank to refuse to join.

Firstly how do expect pilots wages to magically increase to the level of a TAFE teacher.

How on earth could you possibly come up with a negative post on an AFAP road show? congrats

Your anti-Union sentiment is typical of right wing pilots until they join an Airline and actually see what a union is and what they do.

What would they be lecturing you on? All they would be do is explaining what the benefits of being a member are.

And yes you don't have to go if you don't want to. You can and hope for that magical pay increase that will one day fall from the sky and keep voting Liberal who want to dissolve Awards. :ugh::ugh:

[Johnny_56]

G'day again,

I agree that AFAP should be more prominent in general aviation. I think it'd be great if the AFAP could organise a BBQ at Jandakot and other GAAP's, so guys and girls who are completing their training and those already employed can meet with AFAP reps, find out what they do and how to join. It'd also be a good way for people to get together and chat about issues etc. In a previous life i worked in a more unionised job. The union that represented us was always around doing luchtime talks, talking about legal issues and generally promoting themselves.

I don't think this discussion should become a slagging match between union members and non-union members or whatever. As has been said many times on this site, the more we fight amongst ourselves the less we stick together and actually push for better conditions.

There are plenty of other posts that have fallen in a hole because of people bagging others out!

[Lawrie Cox]

Guys
Slow down a little. For starters the Federation is a pilot body run by pilots who employ staff to do the industrial job. We are not affiliated to the ALP or any political party nor do we send members money to any candidates. Equally we do not belong to the ACTU for much the same reasons.
The only outside body we are a mmber of is the International Federation of Air Pilots (IFALPA).
We do not and cannot demand you attend or join anything last i heard we are still a free country.
I and my colleagues attend some of the education institutions to give background on what the new pilots are getting themselves into and watch out for.
We are more than happy to attend any group meetings at any airport so that you can ask questions and get information on what we do as an organisation.
On another note we do not just do matters industrial; we are often involved in the regualtory process; we look after members in accident and incidents.
A members political beliefs are their own but i can tell you that past officers of this organisation have been members of the Liberals and Nationals as well as those with Labor. At the end of the day they had one defining interest as a pilot and that is looking after their fellow professional pilots.
Statistics show that those on union collective/Enterprise Agreements are always well in advance of the parent Award or previuosly AWA's

On a final note pilots wanting to improve things usually get together discuss a course of action and work as a team. Its called a UNION.


Lawrie Cox
Manager - Industrial Relations
Australian Federation of Air Pilots

[Johnny_56]

Lawrie, thanks again

Could you give us an idiots (read pilots) guide to the process of getting and enterprise agreement happening,

cheers

[Charliethewonderdog]

And thankyou for proving my point. Can I ask how I proved your point????Unionists shoving their noses into your workplace and rounding everybody up for a meeting is plain annoying,If you dont want to attend then DONT.... I've had to deal with it in one workplace and just managed to avoid it in another (both non aviation). Not only did it point my nose further out of joint, it wasted time that I could have better used elsewhere.

My anti-union sentiment is not "typical of right wing pilots." I know, the re are plenty of "right wing pilots" enjoying the benefits of what the Unions have achieved.It's a personal belief based on proven ineffectiveness and the fact that unions shuffle money to the labor party. In effect if I was to become a union member I'd be giving free advertising money to the Labor Party, an organisation I do not support. I'm not some sort of radical fascist, but a centre-right supporter. When a union shows effectiveness (and I'm sorry but AFAP hasn't shown that in GA-certainly not in my time)As discussed earlier the lack of AFAP members from GA pilots is probably the reason why the AFAP have been less effective in GA and when the laws are changed to prevent the shuffling of money to said ALP I may at one time in the future join a union.And when the same laws prevent employers lobbying the Liberal party with cash to hold back conditions then things might also get better in GA So don't right me off, oh and FWIW I have no intention of joining an airline-I'd rather retire from aviation and have a decent career and do some weekend casual instructing than work for an airline. yes and you do your casual instructing on pittance whilst the professionals unit for better conditions... A Typical right wing selfish attitude.

How do I expect the wage to increase, that's not my problem Then please leave this discussion to the people who are actually working towards actually making things better but I know of no other industry where those teaching the skills are paid so woefully. ..again you have added nothing to the discussionMaybe the trick is for the CASA to force alignment to the NR Training programmes that some schools opt into.I think this is not in CASA's job description Sure it changed the way you run business, but it gives you access to a whole heap of other options including government help for the student which should enable you to justify increased running costs.

And Finally, every pilot I know who was on an AWA was better off than on the hopelessly inadequate award. That applies outside of aviation too.
Ask National Jet pilots what they would rather have, their old AWA or their EBA they are now on which was achieved by the help of the TWU !!.... your level of knowledge in work place agreements in this industry is very thin I would guess.

[Charliethewonderdog]

Guys
Slow down a little. For starters the Federation is a pilot body run by pilots who employ staff to do the industrial job. We are not affiliated to the ALP or any political party nor do we send members money to any candidates. Equally we do not belong to the ACTU for much the same reasons.
The only outside body we are a mmber of is the International Federation of Air Pilots (IFALPA).
We do not and cannot demand you attend or join anything last i heard we are still a free country.
I and my colleagues attend some of the education institutions to give background on what the new pilots are getting themselves into and watch out for.
We are more than happy to attend any group meetings at any airport so that you can ask questions and get information on what we do as an organisation.
On another note we do not just do matters industrial; we are often involved in the regualtory process; we look after members in accident and incidents.
A members political beliefs are their own but i can tell you that past officers of this organisation have been members of the Liberals and Nationals as well as those with Labor. At the end of the day they had one defining interest as a pilot and that is looking after their fellow professional pilots.
Statistics show that those on union collective/Enterprise Agreements are always well in advance of the parent Award or previuosly AWA's

On a final note pilots wanting to improve things usually get together discuss a course of action and work as a team. Its called a UNION.


Lawrie Cox
Manager - Industrial Relations
Australian Federation of Air Pilots


Can I ask Lawrie why the AFAP who are the "guardians" of the GA award have not fought to increase it to reasonably levels... Why is it that pilots have to lobby the FWA??? why isn't the AFAP more active in Lobbying the FWA for better conditions???

Why are other industries Unions better at increasing pay??? why is the award per hour pay of a Bar tender higher than a Professional flight instructor or charter pilot?

I also ask what do you suggest pilots do to increase their conditions???

Should we continue to rely on the AFAP??? would it be fair to say the AFAP has had it's chance for over 20 years to increase conditions but have failed... would it be better that there was a separate Union representing GA???

Would we have more power being involved with a Union that is a member of the ACTU???

[Johnny_56]

Charlie,

I agree with many of your points, it seems that AFAP has had a long time to try to increase the award for - it's still pretty low, so maybe they have failed. I agree that AFAP could be more active in persuing an Award increase

However...

Do you really think starting another union separately for GA would work? Who is going to start it? Have a chat to some of your collegues and see how much unity there is?, think about trying to harness all this ambivilance and then trying to push for more money. This is one of the issues with GA and probably one of the reasons why the award is quite low. So many pilots employed in GA don't care - they bitch and moan about it at work but when it comes time to change anything there's no guts for a fight.

I don't know - but i imagine that this goes for AFAP also. It is member driven - if members who are employed in GA don't ask or push AFAP to persue more money for them chances are it won't happen. If all the pilots employed in GA joined a more "aggressive" union, then sat around and weren't involved in it and did nothing other than moan to themselves about how bad they are paid do you really think anything would change?

What may be useful is getting a GA representative on the board of AFAP so there is a voice to call for change within our section of the industry - the majority of the board/directors/whatever seem to come from regionals or airlines, i don't think i've seen any instructors or charter pilots try to get elected.

I have found AFAP to be very helpful over the last couple of weeks as I have sought more information regarding the Award review and enterprise bargaining process. However i have had to go to them and ask for the information.

As others have said it is a union... it isn't a separate or a fragment. If we want things to change then we should try and stick with what we've got - an GET INVOLVED!!

rant over.....

[scottiel8]

ello,
problem is folks, CASA is run by uni graduates and x pols who want govenment work, long careers and good pensions! FAA ( for example) is run by pilots, pilots and a few more pilots! end result? FAA look after pilots in USA, CASA screw over pilots in australia and cHarge you administration fees for the priv...! AFAP god bless them dance for joy when tossed a few scraps fOr the hard working GA pilot but the end of the day, what you got? an extra 299 for uniform of which 298 will be spent renewing you ASIc ( thatll never be checked ) and medical! did anybody notice the advertisement for CASA benifit inspectors? $135,000 PA???????????

VOICES LOUD MAKE PILOTS PROUD!!! BE COUNTED!!

[Horatio Leafblower]

Scottie,

Can you please explain what the connection is between CASA and pilot wages? Or, for that matter, the FAA and pilot wages in the USA?

...and come to think of it perhaps you can tell us if pilot wages in the USA are better than here? :confused:

[gas-chamber]

The only thing governs pilot wages and conditions is supply and demand. No different to any other job or business enterprise. Regional pilots in the USA have some of the worst working conditions for so-called professionals in the western world. Because at any one time there are hundreds if not thousands of pilots on furlough and because it is still relatively cheap to learn to fly in the USA. Wages here are not good but at least the duty time rules are better and we all get a whole lot more vacation time.
Despite all the hype about a looming shortage, the shortages will be in places many pilots don't want to work, so the domestic scene here like in the USA won't improve much whatever noise we make. All we can do is chip away, and flex a bit more muscle during any temporary shortages.

[Johnny_56]

The award was increased from the 1st of July.

I think it was about a $1300 rise to the base salary for all the weight categories, which then results in slight increases for allowances for instructing/MECIR etc.

It's only a baby step, i think its about 4% for those on the lowest base wage, but it's better than nothing.:D

[kangas]

well, everyone reading the comments about pay, I spent 7 years in Aviation 2 of those as a Chief Pilot and CFI for 47,000PA back in 1998. Then I left and worked for a small regional airline as an FO 36 seater for 32,000PA ( cRAZY ) Just for the experience. Now I believe CFIs are getting paid about 90 - 110PA in 2011 how things have changed.

I left the industry back in 2002 because of poor operators, poor pay, poor maintemance, I became disalussioned with the whole industry. Started working for the automotive industry as a supervisor earning 85000 PA.

I love flying, but i AINT GOING TO DO IT FOR NOTHING ANYMORE.

IM BEHIND YOU ALL THE WAY.

Pilots are professional, it takes a lot of time and money to get you where you need to be, there is a lot at stake, your profession, other peoples lives and so on.

[Xcel]

Then I left and worked for a small regional airline as an FO 36 seater for 32,000PA ( cRAZY ) Just for the experience.

says it right there really...

[safe_arrival]

Since these posts.... Has anything changed?