BA - Lesson 1:01: How To Seriously Upset A Group Of Premium Customers

[strake]

Offer "World Class" service to First and Club passengers with promise of exceptional experience.

Outward:

- Having called passengers to the "Gate", cram them on a bus for a tour of the T5 area following slow moving baggage carts and other ancillary airport vehicles. Then, disgorge them onto a rain and windswept apron where they can fight amongst themselves to get onboard.

- In case of First passengers, escort to seat and ignore.

- After take-off, apologise for lack of welcome due to "operational difficulties" with newspapers, food and drink service.

- Offer menu with reduced selection of food and drink

Return.....

- Place senior BA manager in seat 1A and spend considerable crew time visiting and chatting etc.

- Before arrival at Heathrow, make "apologetic" announcement about requirement to bus from aircraft to "gate" but reassure everyone that this is a "slick operation".

- On arrival at the stand, senior BA manager has dispensation to jump out of seat before aircraft "comes to a complete stop" and bustle past fellow First and forward Club passengers to door 2.

- Despite having at least twelve hours notice of aircraft's arrival, make "apologetic" announcement that the previously mentioned busses are inexplicably delayed.

- Having opened door briefly to let senior executive manager deplane into a waiting BA van, make another vague announcement that busses "are on the way".

- Give frosty response to irritated passenger (American) who complains, reasonably, that perhaps the operation needs looking in to.

- After 15 minute wait, make upbeat announcement (inferring personal negotiating success) that busses are now here and everyone can happily make their way onto them. Force as many people into bus as possible, encouraged by shouts and orders from driver and various ramp staff.

- repeat outward bus journey through traffic lights, slow moving traffic etc.

Charge from £3500 to £9600 for the experience.

[TheTiresome1]

Apart from the occupant of Seat 1A, that sounds just like the last few times I've flown with them. A deeply disappointing experience. You either failed to mention the inadequately chilled white wine - or perhaps you were lucky. ;)

[ab33t]

this is the norm !!

[Final 3 Greens]

Strake

All you can do is vote with your feet.

I have been working in London this week and need to go to the middle east tomorrow.

I am taking BD.

Too much stress flying BA (if they are not on strike.)

[RevMan2]

And some folk sneered and sniggered at Lufthansa's First Class terminals when they were first announced....

[kaikohe76]

I fail to see why so very many pax continue to use BA.

[ExXB]

Company policy is why I'm flying BA to Washington in a week. They are the cheapest Business Class from here. I tried to get on the non-stop UA flight (not that their Business Class is that great, but it is non-stop) and they were quite a bit more.

[Fargoo]

Any chance of naming dates, route or flight numbers?

[Union Jack]

Any chance of naming dates, route or flight numbers?

.... or the senior BA manager in seat 1A, who should be very, very ashamed, both of his behaviour and his company's failures.

All you can do is vote with your feet

No, it's not - complain loudly, bitterly, and directly to WW, who I fervently hope sees this thread and acts upon it.

Jack

[Fargoo]

I agree :ok:

[crewmeal]

complain loudly, bitterly, and directly to WW, who I fervently hope sees this thread and acts upon it.

No, he's too busy to bother about premium passengers, he's still trying to erode terms and conditions of staff.

So nothing has changed since the 60's when BOAC were bussing to and from terminal 3. The only difference was passengers didn't have so far to climb on a 707/VC10.

When BA get their A380, I wonder how many buses they will need then????

[kaikohe76]

So as it's not the passengers fault then, why should they suffer?

[Final 3 Greens]

No, it's not - complain loudly, bitterly, and directly to WW, who I fervently hope sees this thread and acts upon it.


I did, for two years.

Never got a reply, only a standard response from customer services.

Nothing got better, only worse, e.g. removal of hot towels from CE, cutbacks in CW.

Thus my comment.

[dubh12000]

Any chance of naming dates, route or flight numbers?

9 times out of 10 the Newark flights will park at a remote stand. Getting a bus in is a greater social leveller....

I'm like F3G there, going to the Middle East with Swiss in Feb, not BA.

[hunterboy]

I'm all for customer choice, and the power of the customer. As a frontline BA employee, I am one of the "apologists" that you hear when the buses don't turn up or the BAA jetty doesn't work, or the deicing rigs arent allowed on a stand to de-ice because the BAA H&S police have forbidden it.
If BA goes under, who/what do you think will replace them? Do you think the new incumbent will fare better given LHR's creaking infrastructure?
Are you willing to pay more to expand and upgrade Heathrow Airport?
Sadly, for UK plc, most of us aren't willing to pay. Thankfully, for the residents of Sibson, we have procedures to follow before peoples' houses can be bulldozed to make away for improvements.
Anybody that has transited through DXB or PVG can see the advantages of a totalitarian state with their brand new state of the art terminals.
I'm afraid , that thanks to planning constraints, buses are necessary for the life of T5 and T3.
It would be nice if BA could get its own way at its home base like AF do at CDG or LH at FRA. However, that wouldn't sit well with the British way of fighting with one arm tied behind your back.

[Capot]

Hunterboy

OK, yes, it's all very unfair. But much of what goes wrong for BA at LHR and elsewhere cannot be blamed on the British way, except to the extent that BA staff operate in the British way.

with their brand new state of the art terminals. Hmmm......I was under the impression that T5 is supposed to be exactly that.

Most of the complaints in this thread stem from incompetence and/or simple lack of any sense of urgency to do things as well as they can be done instead of just adequately.

Failure to meet an aircraft on a remote stand with the steps and transport, at the instant the brakes go on, is INEXCUSABLE. Failure to organise the right catering at the right time ditto. Other airlines and handlers at LHR get it right; why can't BA?

The problem with the senior manager is one that BA has failed to put right for the 40 years I have known the company, worked for it, and handled it at several long haul route airports. As a contracted handling agent, I once had to forcefully request a senior BA manager to give up a first class seat for an overbooked full fare passenger, and go, heaven forbid, into economy. My report about his attitude and behaviour arrived simultaneously with his about my lack of respect for his position and status. I still treasure the formal complaint from BA about my action; "The correct procedure would have been to ask the passenger to downgrade with a refund in the form of MCOs and if he refused to offload him and rebook on the next available flight, with accommodation at BA expense".

Ancient customs die hard in BA, and that is its main problem.

[Capetonian]

When I had problems with BA a few years ago, and wanted to try to to find solutions rather than voting with my feet - as I subsequently did - I tried getting someone higher up the pile to listen. Complete waste of time, just standard cut and paste responses from minions to whom the letters are passed back. Persistence was ultimately rewarded by letters that weren't standard cut and paste but simply obfuscated or avoiding answering my concerns, and 'after reviewing this we have decided to close our file on this matter'.

That's not totally true, after one of my letters in which I said I would strenuously avoid flying BA in the future (never say 'never') I was sent a £100 voucher for - you guessed it - duty free shopping on board a BA flight.

This is the contempt with which they treat passengers, and the level is irrelevant, thus it's no wonder this morning's news states that they are heading for a £1 billion loss British Airways heading for a £1bn loss - Times Online (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/leisure/article7009074.ece). Whilst I have every sympathy for the majority of their staff, decent hard-working devoted people, I hope they will be able to weed out the trouble makers and ensure management changes. The rot starts at the top.

[Dan Air 87]

Hi there,
I'm a die hard BA fan (well my Company switched their business travel to BA a couple of years ago) and so we have little choice. But when the service has gone wrong and I've moaned and moaned I have got a result out of them. You need to escalate your complaint and hit them with as many facts of the case as possible. I found it also helps to cc my letter to BA's Chief Executive.

I still rate BA and their crews are just about the best in the business but SIA, EK and CX run them very close.

Keep trying and don't give up on BA.

[Donkey497]

It would be nice if BA could get its own way at its home base like AF do at CDG or LH at FRA.

Strange, I could have sworn that LHR (& all that is therein)belonged to BAA as part of Ferrovial & BA paid rent for the second rate shopping centre with adjacent aircraft parking slots called T5. I might be wrong, but that suggests to me that BA are only tenants of T5, & its the owner really has the final say.

Then again, I suppose that if BA actually owned their own "home base" there would be more emphasis on getting passengers onto and off aircraft in a timely and stress free manner, rather than hassling passengers through aggravatingly claustrophobic transit security before soaking their wallets for spurious, expensive and innecessary purchases........

[Capetonian]

Dan Air 87

....when the service has gone wrong and I've moaned and moaned I have got a result out of them. You need to escalate your complaint and hit them with as many facts of the case as possible. I found it also helps to cc my letter to BA's Chief Executive.

If you feel that this is the correct way for a company to handle complaints, then your definition of what constitutes customer service, and mine, are rather different. In fact, in those words, you pretty much summed up what's wrong with BA.

I'll add a little extra to my complaint. When I mentioned my concerns to someone I'd met in a different context, and who happened to be a BA sales representative for the travel trade, she told me that if, in my complaints, I'd told them I was in charge of the travel budget for a department of a multinational company, and had written on company letterhead, they would have 'sorted things out'.

That was just another nail in BA's coffin for me. It should not be necessary to 'pull rank' to achieve a result. A complaint from Fred Bloggs should be treated the same as a complaint from the head of XYZ Corporation. The reality, as we all know, is that not all beings are equal, but for this woman to have the gall to tell me this just knocked in another nail.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

Why ARE shopping centres so important Airside? I have already packed my bags, and they have long since disappeared into the mysterious world that usually delivers them to me at destination. So what is then supposed to happen?

OMG - I can't live without that shirt, I gotta have it and stuff it into my carry-on? Oh, and those 4 ties, and that yummy sweater?

OH - I have never seen a Harrods shop before, I must buy some of that? Keep filling my shopping bag, I'm sure the airline will now let me take it onboard.

IIRC - they even sell LUGGAGE? How does that work when you're already airside?


A little interest in the PEOPLE [those poor souls who actually pay a lot of money to fly in the aluminum tube] and their welfare [I said their welfare, not your profit] might reassure some of us.

[CornishFlyer]

Two Tone-you're going off on a bit of a tangent here mate. The shops etc are all down to the airport operator not the airline. The airport operator has no say on what happens onboard the aircraft with regards to welfare. I don't quite know what your point is with regards to BA's treatment of premium passengers

[Two-Tone-Blue]

Apologies ... I went off one one. :oh:

I guess my main point [lost in the haze] was Donkey497's point. So much bullsh1t in the Terminals, and actually very little to justify me paying a J-class fare.

However, I will use my Company letterhead for complaints in future. I tend to keep private and company aspects separate. I have already ensured my Company does not use BA for business purposes - I just happen to be caught in a personal pre-booked BA trip in a couple of months.

I promise to sharpen up. ;)

[PAXboy]

All old companies are like this - in ANY sphere of commerce (or govt for that matter). There is nothing that can be done about it. There is no sorting things out. There is new Board/Pres/CEO that can fix it, because the corporate response is now so deep and so wide, that it has overtaken company instructions. The need to save money and maintain 'face' is exactly the approach that kills the company/govt in the end.

It's just human nature and it's been like this, I rather think, since man formed the first village committee ... So I have stopped complaining (unless I think I can get a small freebie but then only for the freebie) and I just buy elsewhere. I do this in ALL my purchasing decisions. In this forum, I have been saying for a couple of years that I though BA would not be in it's presently constituted form within 10 years. Once the cabin crew made their decision, and the various responses of the mgmt, I have shortened that to five years.

hunterboyIf BA goes under, who/what do you think will replace them?Firstly, the UK govt will jump around a lot and splurble at the TV cameras as they always do, "We want to secure as many jobs as we can" blah-blah but the deciding factor will be how much consolidation the UK govt (via Monopolies & Mergers Commission, or whatever it is called these days) will allow.
If VS want a big chunk will they allow it?
If no single buyer can be found, will they allow it to be broken up amongst several, with the Short/Medium/Long going in different directions?
Will they insist it be sold 'as one entity' thus almost guaranteeing it's downfall?
What about a consortium led by it's One World partners?
What if BD (oops, I mean LH) wants to take the major piece?The politicos will want someone to buy the husk lock, stock and reinvent Britland Airways/Brits can really fix this Airways/whatever, but my guess is that commercial realities of a market that has more carriers and capacity than needed, will go for consolidation, not more of the same. Thus, I suggest, an independent UK carrier is likely to close.

I take no delight in this and feel very sad for those that will lose their jobs, particularly the 95% brilliant staff (at all levels) BUT this is what happens to old companies and BA started in 1919 and those preceding 90 years that gave them their worldwide reputation - are now dragging on the wings. They lived on their reputation for some time but that too is now fading. I stopped using BA as my first choice after the Dirty Tricks episode, my lack of spend is infinitesimally small and the times that I have travelled on them since then, have been good. My argument is with the mangers.

There are many examples of old companies that have gone under/been bought out, Woolworth's and Cadbury's for two different and recent examples.

[V800]

I assume the senior manager avoided immigration and customs as well.

[HamishMcBush]

Hunterboy wrote:
I'm all for customer choice, and the power of the customer. As a frontline BA employee, I am one of the "apologists" that you hear when the buses don't turn up or the BAA jetty doesn't work, or the deicing rigs arent allowed on a stand to de-ice because the BAA H&S police have forbidden it.
If BA goes under, who/what do you think will replace them? Do you think the new incumbent will fare better given LHR's creaking infrastructure?
Are you willing to pay more to expand and upgrade Heathrow Airport?
Sadly, for UK plc, most of us aren't willing to pay.
(snip)
.... thanks to planning constraints, buses are necessary for the life of T5
(snip)

Ah, but so many of us are paying more because of LHR's exhorbitant landing fees etc... what are they doing with all that money?
T5 was supposed to be state of the art, and should have been built to cope with at least the next 10 to 20 years in mind. How come it needs buses to operate after about 2 years? Bad planning, lack of foresight... whatever, it will be down to so-called senior managers somewhere, people not fit to do those jobs

[rmac]

Having been thouroughly dissapointed by BA T5's "seamless" service over the last year on many occasions, for example European to long haul = arrive T3 stand, bus to terminal, bus from T3 to T5, long walk around endless terminal back to gate with......another bus to the aircraft on T5 stand I can only assume that the whole thing must have been designed by one of those wonderfully British committees with lots of tea and buns and not a cross word said....:ugh:

[Fargoo]

Terminal 5C should alleviate some of the problems but as far as i'm aware there was never enough capacity planned into T5 to cope with all of BAs needs.

I just find it incredible that these stands without jetties aren't better served and that aircraft regularly arrive without any coaches waiting or steps. I've been on several BA flights myself that have had to wait 15 or 20 minutes for steps to be put on. Clearly not acceptable.

[hunterboy]

All the above comments are spot-on. Question is, who is responsible and will anything change?
Where does all that APD and landing fees go? It certainly isn't being pumped into improving UK plc's transport infrastructure. BA and the other airlines have to lump it.
Sadly, because BA is LHR's biggest user, we have to lump it more than everybody else. That coupled with the employment of some of the worse managers and staff I have ever met, mean BA is what it is. Given carte blanche, WW or even I could sort BA and LHR in 3 months. Sadly, life ain't like that.:*

[Jarvy]

I can also ask when C will be finished and will this help!

[PAXboy]

JarvyI can also ask when C will be finished and will this help!I don't know when it will be finished but I confidently predict it will make no difference. I say this because:
They pitched expectations for T5 too high and after such a big fall, it can never be recovered in time.
LHR has been known as chaotic for the past 30 years. It was not fixed by T4 and not by T5. No expansion through Sipson will change anything. The place is congenitally poor.
The capacity issue was never dealt with by UK govt.
The Loco's have ripped away capacity and much money from connections that are now more difficult. to make. So it might have eased capacity demand but it took revenue.
Other carriers, such as Continental, have taken up the offers from the regional fields that were enlarged for the LCCs and now can support medium and slightly longer routes, where people can connect easily (USA East coast, or Middle East) so it might have eased capacity demand but it took revenue.
Now the global recession has removed much of the demand and will continue to affect us. Since the war, we benefited from US pax who wanted to change planes in a country where they could (almost) understood and often to visit the old country. All of that is going to slide away in the continuing economic crisis. We might be out of recession but that is a purely technical measure, we are still off the runway and have the gear well ploughed in.The airport has been caught been the conflicting demands of:
British Airports Authority, then BAA plc and it's various owners/managers shareholders that have changed nothing.
Civil Aviation Authority of all persuasions that have changed nothing. 'Light touch'? no problem but, actually, that seems to translate into heavy touch behind closed doors because of (3) ...
Governments of both persuasions that have never allowed clear forward planning. (Remember the whole Stansted inquiry? Will another runway be built at STN? Nope!)
BA has always wanted special treatment to match the special treatment it's competitors get but were not allowed it for T4 and so went full out to get it for T5 and ... screwed it up.
All the folks in transport and govt that took decades to get the Tube connected to the airport and even longer to get the mainline and then ensured that it was horrendously expensive.These factors mean, I contend, that LHR lost the edge against continental Europe some 20 years ago Since then, the Middle East has opened up as well with their mega-terminals and (some) subsidised carriers. Consequently, the game is over, finished and done. Whatever happens at LHR is all avgas in the wind. The place will remain what it is. As always I repeat, this gives me no pleasure to say but I simply comment on what I have seen in the 44 years since I first paxed through the place as a boy.

[Donkey497]

as far as i'm aware there was never enough capacity planned into T5 to cope with all of BAs needs

Can I ask one simple question?


WTF not?????



What kind of moron (& I use the only because I can't think of a stronger one) has a billion pound terminal built that isn't big enough & has no room for future expansion? The BA board members who agreed to this deal must have the collective brain power of a six week old boiled cabbage.

[fly12345]

Terminal C is due to open soon, that should ease congestion and diminish bus transfers.

[Fargoo]

Quote:
as far as i'm aware there was never enough capacity planned into T5 to cope with all of BAs needs
Can I ask one simple question?


WTF not?????



What kind of moron (& I use the only because I can't think of a stronger one) has a billion pound terminal built that isn't big enough & has no room for future expansion? The BA board members who agreed to this deal must have the collective brain power of a six week old boiled cabbage.

There isn't enough ground space at that end of the airport to cope with the number of flights, there was always a plan to build a T5D where the ancilliary area east is located but I guess the downturn and the takeover of the BAA has put paid to that for now.

T5C will hopefully help but it's still not enough.

[beamender99]

Terminal C is due to open soon, that should ease congestion and diminish bus transfers.

T5C will hopefully help but it's still not enough.

Open soon ? The last I heard was that T5C was not expected in time for the wonderful Olympics

[Captain Airclues]

Terminal 5C is due to open in May this year and is on time. It is Terminal East that they are trying to get ready by the 2012 Olympics.

Dave

[L337]

T5 is squeezed between the two runways to the north and south. The m25 to the west, and the central area to the east. Heathrow is by modern standards a very small airport in area. That small space meant the architects had to go "vertical" with the design of T5. Hence the lifts and elevators that everyone hates.

T5 was never going to be big enough for BA. It cannot be any bigger because of the space constraints.

If the UK was China we could bulldoze most of Staines away...

So the quote below seems a little over the top.

What kind of moron (& I use the only because I can't think of a stronger one) has a billion pound terminal built that isn't big enough & has no room for future expansion? The BA board members who agreed to this deal must have the collective brain power of a six week old boiled cabbage.

[Skipness One Echo]

WTF not?????
Cos there's no room on the airfield. Is that too simple? It's really that straightforward bearing in mind it's built on a reclaimed sewage works. It was the best they could do.

Speaking of capacity, I see that the new gates 247-249 at Terminal 1 as part of the Heathrow East building are already in use.

[PAXboy]

As I said, governments of both persuasions, have never allowed forward planning. They did not allow the site to be expanded and they did not allow a brand new site - other than proposing them in silly places like mud flats and far out to the East or even far South East. A new site that was further along the M4 could be have been set up 25 years ago but it wasn't and now the cost would be horrible.

The airport is trapped and I am doubtful that the Northern expansion through Sipson will actually go ahead. If it does, I suggest that the operation of the place will remain as chaotic as it is now.

[beamender99]

Terminal 5C is due to open in May this year and is on time. It is Terminal East that they are trying to get ready by the 2012 Olympics.


Thanks for that clarification

[Fargoo]

Its quite old but theres some good info here

http://www.heathrowairport.com/assets/B2CPortal/Static%20Files/Nov05HeathrowEastpresentation.pdf

Including some good images of the airport layout that shows why T5 doesn't have enough capacity. T5C was pencilled in parallel to B where the stands are at the moment.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

Thanks for that link, Fargoo.

As so many others have commented, the entire LHR problem goes back decades, when aircraft were smaller and fewer. And it was built in an area where future expansion [then unimaginable in today's terms] was extremely difficult. In the 50's and 60's it was cute [I used to cycle from Richmond to go 'plane potting from the Queen's Building].

However, we are where we are, and it will take a decade to bring LHR up to speed.

Other airports were located with space to expand!! such as Dulles! (http://www.metwashairports.com/dulles/d2_dulles_development_2/d2_home)

[ODY757]

I now fly as a fare-paying passenger having recently retired from working in the industry for 40+ years.

There is no doubt that service levels in many airlines and airports have deteriorated in recent years : I personally believe that senior managers in these organisations fail to fully comprehend the fundamental business necessity of providing excellence in customer service and therefore do not ensure that this philosophy is driven down to their frontline staff and regularly checked for compliance.

Whilst T5 is a massive enhancement compared with other terminals at LHR, taking lengthy and crowded bus journeys to remote stands ( LHRYYZ 10Dec and YYZLHR 15Dec for example ) very much negates the experience of the new facilities. I have also found the transfer and security processes and staff leave much room for further improvement.

As for BA, their Club World product has continued to decline ; the above-mentioned flights were below expected standards from a comfort (B767) and service perspective. Even AC are now better.

In contrast I recently flew to S.A. with Qatar Airways : excellent service on all four sectors even if the crew lacked a degree of experience.

Off to BGI in March - this time with Virgin as I am no longer prepared to "risk" the all too variable service on BA.

I would say to all who are dissatisfied with BA, take your business where you think you will receive best value. There is no point whatsoever in handing your cash to any organisation who doesn't put your interests first.

[Capetonian]

This thread has drifted towards a discussion of the deficiencies of T5 - and justifiably so.

BA's problems go back further, and are more deep seated than the T5 saga. Management has lost contact with the operations people, and has failed to empower employees to make decisions in the interest of the customers. It really is that simple.

[GwynM]

I know it's only a minor thing, but a stewardess on the ABZ-LHR last night said it's policy now not to carry slimline tonic. They never carried many cans, but now it's none at all. Yet another millimetre on the downward slope?

[Two-Tone-Blue]

ODY757 ... in your first post you have summed up the content of about 382,635 posts in 732 different Threads!! I doubt there will be many who would disagree with your views! :ok:

In the final analysis, T5 is just a better building manned by the same sort of staff in the other Terminals. As you note, it is service levels that remain a constant source of annoyance to the paying pax, especially those in the premium cabins.

A well-run restaurant has a maitre d' who is constantly checking, and kicking, and nudging, and encouraging. That level of hands-on supervision/management seem to be one big factor that is missing, either in the terminal or in the aircraft.

[strake]

A well-run restaurant has a maitre d' who is constantly checking, and kicking, and nudging, and encouraging. That level of hands-on supervision/management seem to be one big factor that is missing, either in the terminal or in the aircraft.

Excellent example and generally, true of the original BA service to the mid '90's. The "maitre d' was a CSO or SCSO (later CSD) who was part of the command team on an aircraft and respected by the flight deck, cabin crew and passengers accordingly.

[PAXboy]

CapetonianManagement has lost contact with the operations people, and has failed to empower employees to make decisions in the interest of the customers.In fact, they have done quite the opposite - they have deliberately DIS-empowered the staff!

In numerous threads in PPRuNe BA staff (at all levels) have stated that they cannot use any discretion that would involve the company in spending money. That means, effectively, they cannot do anything outside of the SOPS, from telephone agent, to check in to gate and all the way through to the far end when the system spits you out.

I recall reading (some years ago) of a pax on a VS to HKG just before the handover to the UK. The pax found themselves sitting next to Branson in Y. When asked, why he was sitting there and not up front? The proprietor said, "Because we only decided at the last minute that it would be interesting to be in Hong Kong at handover and then all the seats at the front were booked."

Suggest that to some (not all - but enough) of the BA managers ...

[Jarvy]

Suggest that to some (not all - but enough) of the BA managers ...
Can I also suggest this to CC and their own.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

I have no experience of running an airline ... I really should make that clear. ;)

However, I have had some 40 years in both 'operations' and 'management'. I am not an idiot.

There are still some basic principles that will always apply ... and at the top of the Aviation list are obviously 'Safety' and 'Profitability'. If you do not have the Staff enthusiastically supporting both of those principles, you have a BIG problem.

How do you encourage people to go the extra mile? IMO, by meeting them somewhere in the middle from time to time. That anecdote about Sir Richard sums up my style [yeah, I'm wonderful!] ... if Management keep Staff at arms length, instead of engaging with them, you are doomed! I never lost any Management credibility by putting the kettle on in the crew-room ... it was just that at that moment, everyone else was busier than I was. No big deal, I even do that for my wife occasionally ;)

"Arrogance" breeds opposition. A bit of humility goes a LONG way.

[frontcheck]

Happy destination = happy crew = happy pax. ??
The crew are there to do a job irrespective of where they are flying.
On the CC crew forum a lot is made of customer service and interaction, if they really feel so strongly about the role, the destination should not come into it.

[jetset lady]

The interaction between staff and the paying customer is critical in the development of business. I've observed previously about the amazing CC on MaxJet [of fond memory]. I would never expect a Global company like BA to be able to generate that level of intimacy and inter-action with the customers.


Two-Tone-Blue has a good point and I know F3G has also mentioned it with regards to Air Malta. I'm lucky, in that, despite flying for such a large airline, I tend to fly the same route most of the time and therefore, have had the pleasure of getting to know many of our regulars on that route. There's Mr XXX who always likes to be in 15K and is usually happy to have a quick chat before getting down to work, always with a glass of his preferred white. Then there's Ms XXX, who's PA is convinced she needs to diet. (She doesn't!) We have an understanding that I will always seek out the most cholesterol laden offering I can find as a substitute for her Low Cal meal, just to spite her PA. And there's Mr & Mrs XXX who are constantly travelling back and forth to see their children. I won't labour the point as I'm sure you get the idea.

Don't get me wrong, I try to treat all passengers in the same manner but there is something special about those that I have got to know during their time in the air, even when it comes to some of our slightly tougher regulars. I know what they like. Whether they usually like a chat or generally just want to sleep. What their preferred drink is. In some cases, even how many children they have and what they've been up to. I can usually pre-empt their requests. That, surely, has to make their experience different, no matter how hard I try with those I "don't know". Maybe that's where the smaller airlines have the advantage.

Please don't misunderstand me. I am not condoning bad service but I can't help feeling that I generally perform much better on those flights, than on the ones where I don't instinctively know what the passenger wants.

Of course, there have also been occasions when I have just got it plain wrong. But then again, I'm only human and where possible, I'm not too proud to apologise.

[PAXboy]

Registering a genuine sympathy note for CC here ... I think the destination DOES make a difference. Every job has it's boring aspects and the prospect of a more enjoyable layover will make a difference. The task must be to not let it show!

My job has some repetitive aspects to it and yesterday I had to visit two venues for two different clients and, the nature of the job means, two sets of staff at those venues. At one of them - everything is like a tail wind helping you along. At the other? The wind is only designed to be theirs and you have to find your own wind and make what you can of it!

I agree with T-T-B. The only important management lesson that I learnt in the 25+ years I was in telecommunications was to talk to the folks at the coal face. If you sit and listen, the staff will tell you what you need to hear. You just have to sift the importance and veracity of what you've heard. That's one of things you get paid for.

When a project reached completion and the engineers were installing the gear and trying to make it all work - I had no useful purpose other than making a decision if something went wrong - since all of my work was done, be it well done or not!

So I made sure that there were always packets of good quality biscuits and decent instant coffee and made the tea. Or got the take-aways on Saturday afternoon when it was all looking like a pile of poo. It really is so easy but a 'seagull manager' or one that allows himself to take seat 1A and then get off the plane in advance of everyone else? Game over.

[manintheback]

One of the most obvious and neccessary things is for the decision makers to be familiar with their product. That means for BA Management acting as a PAX and getting the PAX experience frequently in all classes and destinations. I understand that said management never ever fly in the back. I bumped into Stelio H of Easyjet once on a flight - Talking to him he told me that he flew several times every week to various places - it always gave him early warning of a problem.

[bealine]

Presumably, the Senior Manager is either Martin Broughton, Willie Walsh or Keith Williams?

........... unless you're a BA employee, you're unlikely to know any of the others!

There is no way, however, that they would have avoided the UK Border Agency's Customs or Immigration checks. Apart from visiting Heads of State or those with Diplomatic immunity, everybody must go through the standard UK Border Agency checks.

If a senior, high-profile manager such as WW was to exit the building without passing a UK Border control point, British Airways' would immediately be forved to suspend operations at Heathrow - it would be traeted that seriously!

[Final 3 Greens]

That, surely, has to make their experience different, no matter how hard I try with those I "don't know". Maybe that's where the smaller airlines have the advantage.

I think that this is an insighful comment from JSL.

With regards to Air Malta, I don't know all the crew (but do know a substantial number) and when we do know each other, the experience is different as they can judge from my body language as to whether I am tired or not, whether I am working or not etc.

Intuitively they can deliver a good service as they have an insight into my patterns of behaviour and expectations.

Also, Mediterranean people are, by culture, relationship focused and this is noticeable.

The smaller airlines (or regional units of the biggies) do have an advantage in this respect.

[ExXB]

bealine, you may be very right - but if I saw the guy let off the aeroplane before everyone else and shuttled away I would certainly believe s/he did avoid customs. Otherwise, why the special treatment? (and yes, I suppose there that working crew have their own customs formalities - but explain why a BA manager should be entitled to use them?)

And, while it might be treated very seriously if someone was caught - do you really believe that BA would be forced to suspend operations at Heathrow?

I'm sure that the UK Border Agency would see this as being slightly unfair, to penalise BA's customers for a stupid mistake by a BA manager. From the comments in this thread, and in this forum that sounds like the type of decision that BA management would make.

Sorry for the sarcasm, but I don't believe you.

[strake]

........... unless you're a BA employee, you're unlikely to know any of the others!
It wasn't any of the people you mention and it's quite easy to recognise senior BA management board and operations board managers. Just go to the corporate website and pictures/biogs of execs and non execs are there for all to see as well as .pdf's of annual reports which also contain pictures.
For the record, I am not suggesting that the person in question bypassed border controls.

[The late XV105]

Interesting to find this thread and its opening post the same day as I arrived back home from BA286 SFO-LHR in WT+ (The limit my employer will stretch to).

The thoughts that went through my head at various points in the journey:

"Where are all the pax?"
"Nice to get fresh milk not UHT so yes, I will have a cuppa this time" :)
"Hmm, dinner is very low rent, both quality and quantity"
"Jeez, they call the manky cold contents of that cardboard box, breakfast?"
"If I were in Club I'd be rather miffed at the tired and shabby cabin"
"Strewth, Club and First get herded on the same crowded bus as the rest of us?"

[Final 3 Greens]

"Strewth, Club and First get herded on the same crowded bus as the rest of us?"

Of all the many bad things about BA ground service, this is the one I do not understand.

It is APPALLING.

EK provides a premium bus for F/J; once, due to a ground handling agent mess up, only F were allowed on and J were put with Y.

I reported this to EK (to ensure it didn't happen again, as I was using the route frequently) and the company was appalled - I found a substantial amount of unsolicited miles added to my account.

Yet BA thinks it is OK to do this as SOP. :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

The company does not get that a journey INCLUDES THE GROUND EXPERIENCE.

It does not matter how good the airborne service, if the ground handling is pants.

[ConstantFlyer]

Quite agree, F3G. Hardly anyone's journey begins or ends at an airport. Rather, it's generally at a home, a hotel or an office. While some passengers flying Business or First will have their own chauffeur-driven conveyance at their disposal, most will take a taxi or drive. It is therefore important that all the elements of the journey fit together seamlessly. Door-to-door limousine service, or valet parking, kerbside meet-and-greet by name, skycap luggage service, fast track through security to lounge, and at the other end, disembarkation at own pace onto a dedicated airbridge, personal welcome and dedicated immigration and customs channels, skycap/valet/chauffeur service, a thank-you for travelling with us and goodbye. Combine all that with a warm onboard welcome, good service, IFE, food, space to work and peace and quiet, comfortable seat/bed, and gadgets/equipment that work, and the people paying thousands of pounds for the experience will be happy. Which airlines come close to providing all that? Some, though not too many; and I'm afraid not BA.

[Skipness One Echo]

Of all the many bad things about BA ground service, this is the one I do not understand.
It is APPALLING.


EK provides a premium bus for F/J; once, due to a ground handling agent mess up, only F were allowed on and J were put with Y.

Did you catch something nasty?

F3G you frequently make some good points on here but you do come across as a right old snob sometimes. It undermines your poiint when some of the text drips such attitiude to your fellow man. Most of the people reading this would consider sharing a bus with people who paid less for their ticket to be quite far down the list of things to get so stressed about. I hear there was an earthquake in Haiti....God forbid you mingle with the plebs on a "bus". Dear me!

[silverelise]

Is it perhaps a bit much to expect a different bus for F/J pax? Don't get me wrong, I very much enjoy "turning left" when I travel as much as anyone else, but 5 mins on a bus with people who have not paid as much for their tickets as me would not be such a hardship. It's taking us all to/from the same aeroplane after all.

[Final 3 Greens]

Skipness 1E

You are entitled to you opinion, but I would appreciate it if you would provide definitive research to back up your assertion.

It may be true for people who have paid more than others in economy, but I doubt that too many in F/J appreciate playing sardines.

As Strake pointed out, in the first post, they have paid £3.6-9.6K for an exclusive experience.

Using a bus at all is not great for F, when one looks at LH/LX and their shuttles in Mercedes saloon cars or Porsche Cayenes to the gate.

[Final 3 Greens]

Is it perhaps a bit much to expect a different bus for F/J pax?

No.

These extra words entered to meet min posting length.

[Scumbag O'Riley]

Doesn't bother me that some people get their own bus to the bus. They have paid large amounts of money to get a slightly better version of precooked/chilled/reheated food, and they do get to the destination a few milliseconds before me, and if they want a separate bus and the airline is happy to oblige then it's nowt to do with me.

They can look down their noses at me, through their fizzy plonk they could get for a tenner at Oddbins, for sitting in a rubbish seat. I will look down on them, across the heads of 200 people squeezed into a space the size of a biscuit tin, for paying ridiculous amounts of cash for what is not a very significantly better level of service. After all the important thing is getting there safe and on time and (barring the milliseconds aluded to earlier) we both get that bit of service at precisely the same level no matter where you sit. My jet lag the day after will be exactly the same as anybody else on that plane, sitting in a lumpy seat that goes flat and then gets called a lumpy bed doesn't affect your body clock one iota.

And I suppose they might be subsidising my cattle truck experience, but more fool them I say, and whereas they think they are paying for separate busses and canapes and a couple of olives, if truth be known, any spare money the airline has after paying for said olive is going into their already feather bedded employees' pension pot. Whereas the money I save by flying in the back is going into mine. It sure isn't going into improving levels of inflight service, your money or mine.

[Final 3 Greens]

Scumbag

I don't look down on Y pax.

When I am spending my own money, I am happy to travel Y.

But when on business and I have to get to where I am going in good shape, then I expect the airline to provide a level of service comensurate with the cost and that includes plenty of space on bus transfers, not sardines, so I can manage my two bags easily and have some comfort.

[ManAtTheBack]

S1E

What has the earthquake in Haiti got to do with buses at Heathrow? Why do BA's apologists not discuss the issue at hand rather than criticise the company's customers who having paid large amounts of money for a service expect to receive some of that service. Perhaps if BA feels that its premium customers should be subjected on distinctly un-premium services it should make this clear in its marketing.

[Capetonian]

It's not about 'sharing' a bus with the great unwashed, and to suggest that this is the case is disingenuous and misses the point.

It is about a superior level of service from beginning to end. Standing in a queue with people pushing and shoving onto a bus which is usually overcrowded, and then possibly not getting a seat, does not constitute superior service. Sitting with your nose in someone else's backside and your legs at an awkward angle to avoid someone else's legs or baggage is uncomfortable and is not what premium passengers have paid for.

This is something I have to put up with when I travel EZY and other LOCOs, but if I travel premium class on a full service carrier I expect better. I suffer from (a mild form of) agoraphobia and get panicky in crowds, and this is quite common. It's a great excuse to avoid crowded shops during sales time, but seriously it can be very unpleasant and if I've paid a premium fare I will demand the right not to be squeezed onto an overcrowded bus. If that makes me a snob, elitist, grumpy old man, then so be it. End of ......

[Octopussy2]

Count me in as another one who really doesn't mind the bus trip... As others have said, very happy to be turning left, but I'm not so precious as to insist on a separate bus; that would be slightly embarrassing, I think.

Now separate immigration would be a TRUE luxury - only experienced it once, arriving at Macao by helicopter - the copter passengers got their own, much-needed queue, which saved about 45 minutes...

[Scumbag O'Riley]

F3G.

I expect the airline to provide a level of service comensurate with the costSums up economy class, an excellent value for money proposition, even on BA. (Though if you really want VFM then others are better)

However I totally agree with you that business class and first class passengers deserve far far far far better than they get for their thousand of pounds. But that is true even on the best airlines in the world, never mind the ones in terminal decline, which are quite frankly rubbish.

[Final 3 Greens]

Now separate immigration would be a TRUE luxury - only experienced it once, arriving at Macao by helicopter - the copter passengers got their own, much-needed queue, which saved about 45 minutes...

Fly to Dubai with Emirates, you'll get it every time, in F/J.

When you get to silver level in Skywards, they'll give you your own electronic pass and you won't have to see an immigration officer at all.

But of course, you'll happy to slum it with everyone else, as it would be a bit embarrassing to receive preferential service, wouldn't it?

[Final 3 Greens]

Scumbag

Sums up economy class, an excellent value for money proposition

I agree.

In fact I said pretty much the same thing on the AC upgrade thread.

[Capot]

I suffer from (a mild form of) agoraphobia and get panicky in crowds, and this is quite commonThat's odd, I said to myself, isn't that a fear of wide open spaces, not of crowded spaces?

So I looked it up, and learned something new, shared among us ignorami below.


Agoraphobia is a condition where the sufferer becomes anxious in environments that are unfamiliar or where he or she perceives that they have little control. Triggers for this anxiety may include wide open spaces, crowds, or traveling (even short distances).and

sufferers of agoraphobia avoid public and/or unfamiliar places, especially large, open, spaces such as shopping malls (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shopping_malls) or airports (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airports) where there are few 'places to hide'

You'll recognise the Wiki links. And now back to the BA bashing.

[Octopussy2]

I think I'd make a distinction between 5 minutes discomfort on bus (I must admit I don't really recall being in genuine discomfort on any bus heading out to an aircraft) - really not bothered about that - and a significant saving in time by avoiding the large queue for immigration.

For me, personally, the former is de minimis, and being put in separate transport therefore seems overkill, whereas the latter is a significant advantage, so worth it (just as one's first or club class seat is "worth it". If I were embarrassed by "preferential treatment" as you put it, I wouldn't be flying first/club in the first place, would I??)

I am quite prepared to believe for some people posting that the lack of separate transport is an important issue, just saying not for me, that's all. Takes all sorts etc.

[Final 3 Greens]

And now back to the BA bashing.

What is 'BA bashing' in pointing out the provision of a lower service level than some other airlines?

Now if someone said that EK premium seats vary considerably across the fleets and that this ain't good, I'd be the first to agree.

Let's just face it, BA has slipped from a world beating airline in the 90s to an also ran in the 2000s.

[Dan Air 87]

Haven't we lost our way here? We are now talking about bus transfers among other points. Getting conveyed to /from the a/c with all of the classes happens all of the time wherever you are. Its a fact of life. Let's get back to the main point and what can be done to improve things at BA for CC and pax. At the risk of getting shot down in bits, lets say once and for ever, selling / merging BA with VS is not an option!

[Final 3 Greens]

Getting conveyed to /from the a/c with all of the classes happens all of the time wherever you are.

Have you ever been outside LGW?

Because what you posted is not correct.

And no, we are not missing the point, this thread is about how to irritate premium pax and mixing the classes on crowded busses (in fact busses period) are a pretty good way to do this.

When premium pax pay 000s for a ticket, we expect to travel in comfort and without stress.

Capetonian summed it up a few posts back, so I won't repeat.

[ConstantFlyer]

So, what do people think the Iberia/BA link-up will mean for both airlines' premium passengers? I've only ever flown Y on IB so can't compare.

[strake]

I would just like to say that I don't "look down" on anybody at any time. The class you fly is not important, what is important is the service you get when flying it. I fly Economy, Club and First and expect service commensurate with the fare. If someone wants to feel antagonistic towards people who pay £9600 for a First fare well, that's fine but perhaps they don't understand the reasons. When I fly First to say Narita, it is because I have a pretty intensive two day schedule before returning to the UK. The value to my company is about 30 times the cost of the fare. I am not particularly interested in nice wine or food. What I am interested in is a simple, efficient and comfortable experience. VS try hard to give it in J with dedicated security and a car service at both ends. Their problem recently is in the air where the service really lets them down. This is why I went back to BA and was subsequently
shocked by the experience as outlined previously. If VS can provide a car and private security for the price they charge, then BA should be able to do the same in a dedicated terminal.
However, they still don't get it. They have just emailed inviting me to visit T5 to review the new First cabin. I'm sure it's going to be beautiful with wood, leather and fine fabrics. Great, now spend £500 per pax per trip for limos, £200k per annum on a dedicated security channel, another couple of hundred K on a dedicated F & J bus service then finally sort out the premium cabin crew and I promise I'll give it another go. Until then, they can go whistle.

[Fargoo]

If VS can provide a car and private security for the price they charge, then BA should be able to do the same in a dedicated terminal.

As far as I know VS don't provide a car from the terminal to the aircraft for all their UC passengers do they?

[Fargoo]

Great, now spend £500 per pax per trip for limos, £200k per annum on a dedicated security channel, another couple of hundred K on a dedicated F & J bus service then finally sort out the premium cabin crew and I promise I'll give it another go. Until then, they can go whistle.

Looks like there will be a lot of whistling going on , £500 per pax on a limo :ugh:

A couple of hundred K for dedicated busses wouldn't even come close to covering all the flights BA serve from LHR let alone the rest of the network.

£200k for a dedicated security channel, at which airports? That again wouldn't even touch the sides on the way down.

If VS are paying £500 per pax on transport to the aircraft then I am amazed that they're making a profit - are they making money though, who knows....

[L337]

£200k for a dedicated security channel.

The BAA provide security. Not BA.

Great, now spend £500 per pax per trip for limos

I agree, go whistle.

sort out the premium cabin crew

I think WW is trying to do that.

[strake]

Fargoo and L337

Looks like there will be a lot of whistling going on , £500 per pax on a limo
Let me see if I can help you:
VS Limo home to airport £125
Airport to Hotel to airport £125
Hotel to airport £125
Airport to Hotel £125

As far as I know VS don't provide a car from the terminal to the aircraft for all their UC passengers do they?
They don't need to. Unlike BA, they bring the aircraft to the gate.

A couple of hundred K for dedicated busses wouldn't even come close to covering all the flights BA serve from LHR let alone the rest of the network.

£200k for a dedicated security channel, at which airports? That again wouldn't even touch the sides on the way down.


Re the busses, yes I think it would...again, it's only needed at Heathrow. Everywhere else manages to bring the aircraft to the gate.
Re the security, I am suggesting a similar operation to VS where the service is at check-in T3 and it is paid for by VS. The equipment is there already so it is staff costs per annum.

As neither of you seem to have flown with VS, you can check all these services on Virgin's website.

[Scumbag O'Riley]

If he's paid £9k for a flight which you can get for £750 down the back he should be taken to the plane on a sedan chair carried by the four 747 captains who are highest on the BA seniority list. If that's what floats his boat :)

[L337]

They don't need to. Unlike BA, they bring the aircraft to the gate.

At T5 we have some remote stands, but the vast majority of arrivals and departures are onto a pier.

[Capetonian]

Capot : Thank you for posting that information. It is of course a common misconception that agoraphobia is fear of open spaces. That does not apply to me, nor does fear of confined spaces, it is only fear of being surrounded by large numbers of people. I find it difficult to walk into a crowded room, even if it´s full of people I know (mind you with some of the people I know ....!)

And as a matter of interest, it is often mis-spelt as agraphobia, which is a fear of sexual molestation

[PAXboy]

L337At T5 we have some remote stands, but the vast majority of arrivals and departures are onto a pier I'm sure they are but the times that they AREN'T are the times it's noticed - that's the business.

I arrived at T5 last August from JNB, so we were on 27L and able to roll off directly into the T5 area. As with all JNB flights, we arrived in the 06:00 /0 07:00 hour and the place was quiet. We had to be bussed.

Yes, I realise that the a/c might not be turning immediately and so they parked on a remote where it could wait until later in the day. In that case, park at a proper gate and then tow the machine back to the remote gate. Cost money? Oohhh shocking. For the record, the flight was great. Boarded on time (through some old fangled device called a jet-way that they still use in South Africa) and the cabin service was very good indeed. I was in WT+ and fed up with having to go through the old bussing routine after a 10.5hr flight.

Incidentally, the only reason I travelled on BA? I had enough FFMs to spare. Such a pity to see a good company sliding down but, as I have said before, ALL old companies do this and it is inevitable and unstoppable. Ask Woollies and General Motors and all the rest.

[Fargoo]

In that case, park at a proper gate and then tow the machine back to the remote gate.

Simple and effective, no idea why it isn't done :ugh:

[Fargoo]

Fargoo and L337

Quote:
Looks like there will be a lot of whistling going on , £500 per pax on a limo
Let me see if I can help you:
VS Limo home to airport £125
Airport to Hotel to airport £125
Hotel to airport £125
Airport to Hotel £125

Not sure I understand , you were talking about seperate transport from aircraft to terminal yet your costings are based on a limo from your home direct to the airport and then to a hotel and back again.

I assume also you haven't travelled much, there are lots of airports and carriers that still bus from remote stands other than Heathrow and BA.

I think the points you made in your first post on this thread were extremely valid though. If you ever start an airline with a limo service as above for all your prem pax then count me in as a customer :ok:

[wiggy]

Quote:
In that case, park at a proper gate and then tow the machine back to the remote gate.

Simple and effective, no idea why it isn't done



No, it's not simple and it certainly wouldn't be effective.

You've got a whole wave of Longhaul Flights arriving into T5 from around 0500 onwards. They've got to be unloaded, turned around ( cleaning/catering/engineering, etc) and then loaded for the next departure, the whole process taking the best part of a couple of hours... and that's with the aircraft remaining static. If you insisted on also towing off of and back onto "proper" gates you'd add at least another hour to the process, and you have the extra costs of tugs and towing crews and in addition the extra ground congestion caused by dragging a fleet of 744s and 777's around Heathrow.

I know that off Pier stands can be a right PITA. I really don't enjoy apologising for the umpteenth time when there are no busses especially when we've spent all night trying, and succeding, in engineering an on-time arrival ....I would also agree with the premise that our Premium passengers are entitled ( as in "paid for") to expeditious passage to T5A. Then again, to be fair to BA, there are plenty of other airlines and airports that also use off pier stands....and I've never ever heard anyone complain about the off pier stands used by BA and Virgin in the Carribean - must be something to do with the weather .

[strake]

and I've never ever heard anyone complain about the off pier stands used by BA and Virgin in the Carribean
You really are stretching a point. I think you need to compare like with like. Of course it's expected that downline there are going to be times when the facilities are not available but T5 is the home of BA. It is supposed to be a flagship terminal for a flagship airline.



Let me see if I can help you:
VS Limo home to airport £125
Airport to Hotel to airport £125
Hotel to airport £125
Airport to Hotel £125
If you ever start an airline with a limo service as above for all your prem pax then count me in as a customer

Well, give Virgin a call then.

[Fargoo]

Unfortunately Virgin don't yet offer that service for all of their premium passengers. Maybe one day....

[wiggy]

Fair point, my not so subtle attempt at humour failed. Rest of the post stands, including my comment about the transport of Premium passengers. There will be less "bussing" once T5C opens - but it won't end completely.

(Oh, the other PITA is the fact that some of the existing stands on T5B are off-pier...go figure)

[strake]

Unfortunately Virgin don't yet offer that service for all of their premium passengers. Maybe one day

Well, now I am confused. As far as I know (having flown with VS for the last 6 years) all full-fare UC passengers receive this service.

[The Real Slim Shady]

I don't think it matters whether you fly F,J,C,W or Y: what matters is the expectation of service the airline, it is irrelevant what they call themselves, generates by their advertising ( mere puff excluded) and more particularly these days their website.

If West London Airways promise you " an experience" in C or F you have every right to expect them to deliver: if South London Airways adds some value to their product e.g. limo service you may elect to use your hard earned cash to pay for their product over the former.

If you pay £2 for North London Airways loco flight and add £X for speedy boarding you have the expectation that you will get what you pay for.

The problem all airlines have is delivering that promise or expectation because so much of the ground side is contracted out.

The ground handling side is, like the aircraft you fly on, provided by the lowest bidder.

[Fargoo]

Well, now I am confused. As far as I know (having flown with VS for the last 6 years) all full-fare UC passengers receive this service.

Only going on what i've seen when i've been to book with them, only the most expensive tickets in UC get the limo service. If you but the cheaper (but still full fare) UC tickets ie non-flexible then the service is not offered.

A moot point I guess but still they don't offer it to everyone.

[Fargoo]

From the horses mouth so to speak :)

WHO IS ELIGIBLE?
Limo to lounge in 10 minutes
You must be travelling in Upper Class on Virgin Atlantic on an adult fare booked into J, D or R booking classes. Discounted Upper Class tickets booked into other booking classes are not eligible for ground transfer options.

Upper Class reward bookings made using Flying Club miles do not automatically come with ground transfers, but you can use additional mileage to book them in most destinations.

Codeshare flights: If you are travelling on a codeshare flight with Continental between Gatwick and Newark, you must be booked in J, D or R booking class. Other codeshare flights are not eligible for ground transfers.

If you are not sure if whether your ticket qualifies, ask your travel agent or call Virgin to check.



Having said that, just checked out the LHR-MIA route and even the cheapest £4000 UC ticket had the ground transfer included.

Anyone know if AA, United or the others offer this or is it just Virgin?

[Final 3 Greens]

Routing LHR/RUH/LHR

Outbound 20 March, inbound 28 March

BA fully flexible business class = £3,910.50

bmi fully flexible, with chauffeur drive included = £3,192.90

I've used both.

The BA NCW seat is better, but I slept easily on the bmi seat too.

Is NCW worth £700 more (plus the car savings?) For me, no.

Also, I preferred the bmi crew, more down to earth, but the service on BA was fine.

[Fargoo]

£700 is some difference!

[spock33]

BA are having to sometimes bus pax to the stand because BAA haven't finished the construction of the 'C' satellite. Once that is completed the problem goes away.

I thinks it's very unfair that BA attracts a lot of flak for circumstances which are way beyond their control.

[profot]

I found there is little point writing about your concerns to WW, he doesn't even bother sending a standard reply from his minions which to me shows an utter lack of respect or interest in your customers.

Subsequently my large travel spend is now with other airlines as much as possible.

I was unfortunate enough to travel BA to Dusseldorf last week, forgetting the atrocious state of the aircraft, bundled boarding and sour faced staff. The highlight for me was going to the first lounge ( using up the last ever year of executive club membership hopefully) and being asked to present my gold card for the first time in 8 years.

When I explained I don't carry it but have never been asked for it before, the trumped up little twerp on the counter started ranting on about regulation this and that and BA policy. He then made me go through the entire performance of my address date of birth and various other checks. Astonishing really that the other hundreds of times I have passed through there my boarding pass with Gold written on the top right corner was more than sufficient!
And then we try to defend the airline, I know I have for years but not any more.

Simple facts, BA does not care about its customers or a level of service therefore BA does not deserve yours or my custom.

As far as I am concerned it can collapse on top of the idiot 'running' it.

[Capot]

BA attracts a lot of flak for circumstances which are way beyond their control.

If BA were to take a robust approach to BAA, get on top of problems and potential delays before they turn into disasters, exert severe penalties for failed service, you would be surprised to see how much control it could have.

Companies get the service they deserve, and this applies to what BA gets from BAA.

The relationship between managers at all levels is far too cosy; frightfully gentlemanly, don't you know, never a cross word or, if one escapes someone's lips in exasperation, there is no real force to back it up.

"Beyond our control" is almost always untrue when used as the excuse of last resort by the incompetent.

[PAXboy]

spock33I thinks it's very unfair that BA attracts a lot of flak for circumstances which are way beyond their control.When BA trumpeted that that T5 was opening and it was world beating and all the problems were over - I did not expect that to mean that nearly two years later they would still be bussing pax.

If they had cautiously announced T5 Phase 1 - and made that clear in all their publicity? If they had listened to the people who did the test pax + suitcase tests, that the system was not working? Etcetera.

For the record, I really like almost all of BA crew and the flights. The mgmt clearly have lost all touch and are now in the endgame. I say this with no joy.

[Hartington]

I've been trying to decide why I sometimes pay (from my own pocket) for something other than economy. It's mainly because (when travelling long haul) I arrive feeling much less like death warmed up the more I pay. Access to the lounge at the airport is an added bonus.

But I have to say that I've never experienced any real difference in treatment as I pass through the airport. But then I've never travelled on Virgin. Oh, I've experienced priority boarding which is a bit of a two edged sword sometimes as you sit there watching everyone else struggling past (not all business seats involve a left turn) and priority security (sometimes works), priority check in (not much in it these days with self service). But I've still schlepped the corridors, got on buses etc.

Should I expect a better airport experience? Yes. But then so should everyone.

Should I expect a better service, the more I pay? Ah, there's the real question. There is little doubt that the airport forms a part of my overall travel experience. So, am I buying a better aircraft experience or a better travel experience?

Well, if the airport won't play ball the airline can't do much. And, there are places where the airline doesn't really have an option. As an extreme example I'll quote Iguassu in Argentina where we boarded across the tarmac (no bus, no jetway) in the rain with the Aerolineas Argentinas staff shuttling umbrellas across the tarmac. The only thing they might have done was escort the premium pax instead of leaving us all to get on with it.

In the end the airport experience on a long haul flight is a small part of the total travel experience timewise. It is particularly true that on arrival we all suddenly become equal. Being at the front of the plane should mean being first off which should mean first in the queue for immigration but at many airports that simply means having first choice of which existing queue to join.

I believe that it's not so much about bussing and being pushed in with everyone else so much as availability of buses and jetways. I've had the experience too many times of being told that a gate is not available or we're on the gate but the crew aren't there to operate the jetway, buses are just another part of that problem.

So, do I expect a better airport experience for my extra money? Yes. But in the end I expect it for everyone.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

@ hartington ... nice, balanced post.

My wife and I travel Club a couple of times a year on holiday to the USA. We can afford to, and we hope for a bit extra for the money we pay - better seating, food and service, and Club Lounge, and priority security and boarding.

To my sadness, the only bit that really happens is the better seating ... the rest, these days, generally doesn't. And I guess that's why I sounding off here. We pay a premium rate for things that don't happen, and I guess the list will be familiar to many of you:


Priority Security .. only ever experienced that at STN with MaxJet, otherwise LHR doesn't deliver. Nor does IAD, but then that's been under re-building since the 1990s and remains a shambles for Premium pax.
Lounges ... never done VS, but BA are similar to the ones sold commercially for about £30. Possibly not as good.
Boarding ... for the first time EVER, on my last trip out of T5, the BA staff were actually trapping the WT pax trying to use fast-track boarding and sending them back to start again. Unlike at IAD, where we were bundled and bounced by [insert race/religion here] family who shoved into the clearly signed queue/line, and then were allowed to get away with it by BA staff.
Settling Down ... "Would you like a plastic glass of warm water?" In BA Club?
Service ... "White wine, please." "Excuse me, that's warm ... I'll have a red." In BA Club?
Meal = average, items missed almost every time we fly. And don't you DARE ask for what's been missed out, like the coffee. My wife is still hoping to get through a flight without being ignored somewhere.

Oh, it goes on, and on, and on. Why do I pay the money? Because, on a 7-8 hour sector, I want some physical comfort. And, as Hartington said, I can actually get off at the end in a fit state to pick up my rental car and drive round the DC Beltway for an hour in a safe state. That for me, is a major factor. Staggering off an aircraft after 8 hours in WT/WT+, spending another hour on Immigration and then car pick-up, is not the ideal scenario for an hour on the Beltway. [Especially today ... ;)]

And for this rather sub-standard product, I subsidise the folks in WT?

I'm now burning my BA Miles, and wondering what compensation BA will give me if my next flight [due to IA] results in me being given a cardboard snack-box instead of the usual "adequate" service that I've already paid for.

[Haven't a clue]

TTB like you I pay my own way. Four returns each year in BA First, over 30 grands worth. Last year I used BA Miles for three trips, and Airmiles for the fourth. Now I'm about to book my first First for a while with my own cash and I'm really wondering whether I should try something else. Yes the seat is great but the service on the aircraft is not as good as it was (the food and wine are now pretty average, unless you like leaks and beetroot), and the service on the ground (other than the Concorde lounge) is identical to that enjoyed by those in Y.

Yet for the fifteen years previous I've been a happy BA First pax. They really have screwed it up, and one wonders whether the bankers, if and when they return, will take notice and reject this crappy product range as I am going to do.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

Interesting, Sir!

The Memsahib and i were just discussing the possibility of going F ... and decided "it's probably not worth it". As you are about to discover, using your own ££££ tends to focus the mind a bit more! ;)

Sadly, my required sector is only served by BA, VS and a couple of US carriers I wouldn't bother with. As I've noted on other threads, "I could get used to the purple/red colour scheme" although other Pruners have said that's gone downhill as well.

Bloody British financial crisis, eh? I'll just have to grit my teeth and pay for the 'privilege' of having modest comfort. And bemoan the fact that I don't really feel I'm getting what I pay for.

[Haven't a clue]

Being a dinosaur I remember when you were escorted from the First check-in desks through security to the lounge. Of course you were on your own thereafter. But it was a nice touch, as was the cart that was wheeled out with the food service, and the Dom Perignon. And on arrival at SIN (and only SIN) your bag was first off and waiting for you in the baggage hall. (Although you now have a seat to yourself and the IFE doesn't fail because you have accidently spilt your drink on the long suffering tape player under the armrest..)

Now you may or may not get cashews, you may or may not get a hot towel, you may get fed immediately or left for ages, the scrambled egg is not what it used to be, I have better wines at home and I can't even have the simple pasta snack I used to enjoy. The only thing that works is the seat!

Incidently I wonder why, when designing T5, they didn't put a security route from the First check in area straight to the lounge. Now you have to muck in with the other plebs in the (not really) Fast Track route. But you can then turn right and staright into the lounge, avoiding the retail mayhem and the hoi polloi:E

[Two-Tone-Blue]

The only thing that works is the seat!

Lucky you ... twice in the last 4 trips the Mem's seat hasn't. Once for a video failure and once for not motoring fully-upright. On both occasions SHE got ticked off by BA cabin crew. But then we were only in Club. ;)

[rog747]

i read your posts

you have not tried VS to IAD upperclass

well for your money you will prob get a limo to the airport,
check-in/bag drop is minutes,
you get VS own security area accessed by the bar code on your boarding pass,
and in 5 minutes you are in the Clubhouse where you eat and drink yourself
stupid before you board and have your hair done if you wish...
the lounge is the best bit for sure,
the boarding usually means you get on quick (can be a shambles overseas)
they rarely bus at LHR (inbounds do sometimes but its rare, except in the mornings)

on board,
well,
sometimes it reminds me of going into a tacky sparkly 1980's disco and other times its very calm and reserved...and that can be the crew too!
the boarding music can be a din...too loud...
the mood lighting and the ambience sometimes can be superb...
the crews can be great and fun, once you get over the fact they have sparkly eye shadow on and look like cheryl cole, (that's the boys) lol joke,
no big ol grannies here ala BA...
although i do like the older ladies at BA very much...most are very sweet and
very pro.

the seat,
its private, maybe abit narrow for some,
the middle seats are wider in many cases than the window seats,
you can sleep, you get nice duvet and jim jams...

the food on board...
eat in the Clubhouse and go to bed...(on night flight)
food has the lost the plot on many flights i have done,
less of it and quality is much lower than ever.
you wont go hungry though, you can ask for more...

day flight?
frankly the virgin premium economy seat and cabin is great for 8 hours, maybe even LAX,
but take a picnic hamper with you. you will starve.
the food is better than Y but not loads of it.

at the other end,
in Upper your bags SHOULD come off first,
you will be off the plane first and sometimes you get immigration fastrak or
there is no one there anyway.
and a limo to your hotel or place...

only trouble is VS is inconsistent whereas for your BA was always the same,
always had good flights on BA in all classes but i have not been on BA long haul for maybe 3 or so years now...
last time was BA First from Cairo and was called 'mate' by the steward...
ummm i'm not a chavv

give VS a try to washington, you might like it

[Fargoo]

the crews can be great and fun, once you get over the fact they have sparkly eye shadow on and look like cheryl cole, (that's the boys) lol joke

followed by

last time was BA First from Cairo and was called 'mate' by the steward...
ummm i'm not a chavv

:ok:

[strake]

Rog747
If I may say, an excellent and very accurate description of VS.

I completely agree with your comments that the onboard part of the journey with them has lost its shine recently. Where VS really gets it right (as I tried to explain earlier) is the non-flying bit..limos, clubhouse and dedicated security.

HaC and TTB,
It's all relative but I would not spend that amount of personal money on BA F. Perhaps if they gave the VS level of "off-aircraft" support, then yes but the cabin service (I mean product not people) is still not up to scratch and certainly nowhere near that which I think you both probably experienced previously.

[ConstantFlyer]

Has anyone tried the PrivatAir service operated for LH out of DUS and LX out of ZRH to New York? How does that compare to the BA experience?

[PAXboy]

Likewise, any first hand experience of the BA LCY ~ JFK operation?

[rog747]

my pal just did this from LCY and back with BA
said it was marvellous

cant say more at the mo but he is a big hi-flyer and also lives in FRA
so for him to say it was good knowing what he's like then it must have been good,
stops in SNN o/b for fuel and clearing customs said it was a breeze:ok:

[GANNET FAN]

I have just returned from Denver with BA in Club where the flight out and back was on time and the service faultless. The new flatbeds were a vast improvement and just about fitted my 6'4" frame.

I guess I am one of the few satisfied customers of BA!!

[Two-Tone-Blue]

@ Rog747 ... thanks for the dissertation on VS. Informative and useful. Our last VS trip was about 4/5 year ago [in PE] and was OK - apart from the fact that, when we checked in, my wife [who had paid for the tickets] wasn't on the manifest! Quickly resolved, though. Even then we had noted a bit of decline in the on-boad service ["financial imperatives", I guess] compared with previous trips. We're still keeping an open mind for September - a lot hinges on what BA delivers for us in April.

@ Gannet Fan ... from intensive reading on the CC Forum, it appears that standards of service can vary according to the popularity of the route with the CC, especially on long-haul. Denver [or at least the crew's hotel] may be better than the option given them on the Washington run [where I would guess they're lodged in Herndon, miles from anywhere of merit].

[Scumbag O'Riley]

Intersting pricing on LCY-JFK.

If you want to travel on Sunday then can get for about £2k return.

Midweek can pay as much as £5k return. Outbound flights (stop shannon to refuel I suppose and replace crew) are as much as £2.5k less than the return. I am guessing these people will go to LHR for outbound.

So people value their time at £2.5k not to stop at shannon, but to hack across london to LHR and then fly non-stop?

[dubh12000]

The Privatair product on the ZRH EWR route is a bit aged now to be honest. Old style seating and poor IFE. The newer SWISS A333 with their new business seating is better, even if I prefer Newark over JFK.

[Scumbag O'Riley]

well further to my last post, checked the prices of club out of LHR->NYC. And you can get that for £750. So the market has collapsed, and my question might not apply.

And more interesting, well to me at least, is that the NYC-LHR is running at over £3k, that's night flights whereas LHR-NYC is daytime.

So does that suggest people are flying out in WT during the day, but paying £2.5k more for a flat seat to kip in on the way back??? Expensive hotel room if they are.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

@ scumbag ... where did you get that £750 fare? Was that just one half of a round trip?

I'e just checked and ba.com is saying
ONE-WAY LHR>JFK £3122 and LCY>JFK £3411.
RETURN LHR>JFK>LHR is showing £1490 [£745 per sector].

One-way trips always cost silly money, and you can't quote the price for half a return ticket - although that could make for a cheaper option [just tear up the return half!!]

Ready to be corrected, of course ;)

Meanwhile, I have read other posts suggesting the WT out, Flat-bed home philosophy; pay for the upgrade on the return flight. Makes for sound economics, especially for those LUCKY people who are expected to work on the day they get back to UK [I had a friend who lived that life all the time, doing the JFK run at least twice a month].

[10bob]

Just for a bit of balance, I have in the last few months started to fly twice a month with Lufthansa in business via FRA. I am also a Gold BA Exec Club holder and have flown in Business/First with them regularly for years.

Experience of Lufthansa:
- 9 times out of 10 both the plane out and in to FRA goes to a remote stand. Business class are put in the same bus as everyone else.
- I don't get a limo at either end.
- the service and seat on board isnot as good as NCW.
- FRA makes LHR T5 seem an absolute dream. FRA is a shambles.
- Tickets are extraordinarily expensive, but I have little alternative options.

I also have regular experience of BMI and Emirates in business. BA may not be perfect, but they are not the shambles regularly made out on here (as anyone who has tried to log in to Diamond Club recently will testify).

[manintheback]

Try Cyprusair. Flew last summer, I and the one other Biz pax were put in a bus of our own while the 150 or so down the back were all jammed together in the only other bus. Then we all met up again 200 meters away at the reclaim.

[Scumbag O'Riley]

One-way trips always cost silly money, and you can't quote the price for half a return ticket - although that could make for a cheaper option [just tear up the return half!!]Depends on the airline of course, but for BA, yes that is a fair point which I had overlooked. Suppose serves me right for trying to make sense of airline charging policies :)

[Binman62]

The issue with buses at T5 is primarily due to the BAA not building the terminal on time or to the required specification. T5C is still not ready and T5B was cut back to save money when it was sold to the spanish. That is why the end jetty of T5A is the longest in the world.

BA have, as a result, to coach over 20% of their operation at their home base and in the newest terminal in Europe!!

Add to this the mess that is LHR generally. 94% of all aircraft movements take place between the two runways and these are planned to be used at almost their maximum allowed rate for most of the day.

Then add ludicrous 1950/60 noise regulations limiting use of runways and preventing sensible dual use all day long.

Throw in a bit of bad weather....it does not matter what type, snow rain wind, sunshine and the landing rate will plunge from 48/hr to often less than 40. Indeed on most days of the year some form of regulation is applied to the landing rate, which in turn impacts on turn rounds and therefore on departures and therfore on stand use and planning.

For good measure add BAA incompetance. They train to create queues at this they are the best in the world. But security screening is woeful.

Upshot is BA get clobbered time and time again.

I like BA, fly BA and will knock them when required, but bottom line here is they operate at the worst major airport in Europe if not gloablly and which should be bulldozed and relocated as soon as possible and then run by and airport company and not a retail consortium.

[ConstantFlyer]

the worst major airport in Europe if not gloablly

binman62

Thank you! At last someone has actually said it!

[Rusland 17]

Thank you! At last someone has actually said it!At last? It's probably been said a hundred times already on this forum in the past year alone. :)

[The Real Slim Shady]

The problem of frustrations through airports, regardless of whether you are travelling AA,BA,CA,VS etc is the root cause of dissatisfaction even before you get on board.

The flight, Y,C,J,W or F, is the relaxing part before you take on the rigors of customs and immigration at your destination.

Perhaps the start and end of the trip should be the focus of passengers' angst.

[ExXB]

IIRC the OP's complaint was about the end of his journey. And BA not seeing the need, or being too cheap, to treat the guys who paid the equivalent of 10 Y fares, or more, a little better.

BA zinged me this week BEFORE my trip. Got an e-mail and an SMS telling me around 11PM that my flight to IAD was cancelled (apparently they had a bit of snow). Gave me a phone number to call - "Thank you for calling British Airways, our opening hours are 8AM to 6PM Monday to Friday. {click}. Club class to IAD, although the cheapest out of Switzerland, wasn't that cheap. From their website I found a number in the UK that I called (at my expense). While I understand they aren't going to have an office open here - but why not give me a number I can get somebody 24/7.

Bloody Awful? No Bloody Cheap!

Edited to comment = I am NOT complaining about the cancellation, I sorta expected it given the reported conditions.

[Haven't a clue]

ExXB's experience demonstrates BA's lack of enthusiasm for customer service. Several years ago my father was taken ill in Cyprus. I was told late on a Saturday evening. A call to BA's UK booking line was automatically rerouted from their closed UK call centre to their US centre who were able to help me make the required booking. I was a very impressed and satisfied punter. Nowadays I appreciate that I could have done this on ba.com. But...the point is that they have withdrawn the excellent service which enabled customers to call 24/7. Not very customer centric, I suggest.

[Final 3 Greens]

The problem of frustrations through airports, regardless of whether you are travelling AA,BA,CA,VS etc is the root cause of dissatisfaction even before you get on board.

Totally agree, in fact I have made similar comments in here before. Most of the following I have already posted on other threads, but it is germane to this one, so I will repeat it.

BA's problem (as this thread is BA centric) is that they are players in the dissatisfaction and do not seem to realise that it impacts their reputation.

If I pay several thousand € for a business class ticket, I do expect priority treatment (accepting that first class should receive even higher priority.)

As other posters have lucidly described, being forced to play sardines on a bus or getting 'slow track' security or just generally being p*ssed around (e.g. online check in info says no need for visa check, queue at 'fast track' :mad: security entrance point for 5 mins, then sent back for visa check) is not providing value for money.

That is why I tend to avoid BA, where my experience is that the air part of the journey is good or better, but the ground part is unreliable and sometimes shambolic.

I don't care whether BA is based at a poor airport, I do expect VFM and will usually find it by flying other airlines.

e.g. my last trip to the middle east was with BD, no fast track security, great *Alliance lounge, departure from a jetty and a good flight. It was a little irritating not to have fast track security on a J ticket, but then again the airfare was £700 less than BA and the total time in security was probably about the same for my average fast track experience at T5 (i.e. about 10-12 minutes.)

Coming back from the middle east, last year on BA, the menus in club were incorrect.

I ordered breakfast, to be informed that unfortunately that meal was not available, as the meals loaded were different. I was offered a beef bacon sandwich and anyone who knows the middle east will recognise that this is rather unhealthy, in fact it is the stuff that hardened arteries are made of.

The same thing happened for lunch, although the crew did preempt the situation by informing us of the fact beforehand and reading out the available options.

As I did not really like the sound of the options on the lunch menu (once again high fat/high calorie), I decided to hang on to eat at the arrivals lounge as the CC serving me told me that they did food there until one hour after our STA. I also had an hour to kill before checking into my Heathrow hotel.

When I got to the arrivals lounge (flight being on time), there was a couple of slices of ham, a piece of lettuce and some distressed bread.

I was informed that they were 'winding down to close' and that the chef has gone home, so that was all that was available; this later proved to be not quite correct, as the chef came out and offered to cook me some eggs on toast, which was a nice offer.

However, by this time I was rather fed up of the whole performance and somewhat hungry (eggs on toast didnt really inspire me), so I left my silver card with the duty manager, with instructions to explain to the Exec Club that I wouldn't be needing it anymore and went to M&S Only Food, where I bought a delicious sandwich and a nice green salad.

The extra £6 was not really much under the circumstances, but as I had paid 3,000€ for the ticket, it was disappointing that I had to for out for my own lunch.

I have not booked another long haul ticket with BA since and have no intention of doing so unless the schedule mandates it.

Someone at BA needs to get their act together, as the ground side lets down the air experience.

[barry lloyd]

First started flying as pax 40 yrs ago. Since I live in the North of England, there were far more options than BA, although I used them regularly, since it was company policy for one company I worked for.
I recently reviewed my airmiles tally, and realised that I was about to lose them if I didn't use them fairly soon, because I don't often travel with BA these days. Booked a seat in CW MAN-LHR-MRU.
The outbound transfer at LHR was fine (my first experience of T5), airbridges used for both flights. Boarded the LHR-MRU flight and settled down - or tried to. I discovered I was surrounded by six very drunk Finns, (it's not just we Brits you know!) who had obviously put their legendary drinking skills to good use since checking in at Helsinki.
After about 90 minutes of their disruption the CSD told them that there would be no more alcohol, and apologised to me very loudly, following which they went quieter and eventually slept.
On the return, I was allocated the upper deck (I wasn't about to spend £60 to get the seat of my choice), only to find myself surrounded by a family of four with two young children, who spent the entire 12 hours running up and down the aisle, with their parents making feeble efforts to control them.
Both the long-haul flights were completely full (or so I was told), so there was no option to change seats.
I don't do IFE - I started flying long before it was even thought of, and I've lost the film halfway through too many times to even bother switching it on these days - you can't beat a good book and a pair of (bought) earplugs!
On arrival at T5, I found the signage and staff so poor that I ended up clearing immigration with everyone else (appaprently there is a transfer system, but it's poorly signposted and the BA staff don't seem know how it works). Airbridges used for both return flights. Lounge OK, but it doesn't hold a candle to the VS one.
KLM is now my preferred carrier and my platinum-for-life card is useful for accruing points, and I've been upgraded on both long and short haul flights more times than I can remember, with none of the problems mentioned above. KLM aren't perfect - I've had my baggage mislaid loads of times, but they are always contrite and top up my mileage total witout being asked. BA once lost my baggage for three months(!) and I had a hell of a job trying to claim for missing contents of the half-empty suitcase which was eventually returned to me. I imagine the contents were probably on display at the clothes market in Tehran.
Up here we have such a good choice of airlines, albeit with a change involved on some long-haul flights, (but we northerners are used to adversity :)) and I shall continue to avoid BA whenever possible.

[Rusland 17]

KLM aren't perfect - I've had my baggage mislaid loads of times...To be quite honest, any airline that loses your luggage "loads of times" is far from perfect and I wouldn't fly with them no matter how good the inflight service is.

Losing luggage is probably the single most stressful thing that can happen on a flight. Only one airline has ever mislaid my bags, and I have never flown with them again. (It was SAS, and it turned out to have been a deliberate decision not to transfer bags from a late feeder flight at CPH in order to maintain the onward schedule).

[barry lloyd]

As a percentage of the the times I have flown with them, it would be in single figures. I'm not one of those people who gets stressed about mislaid baggage. If you explain the circumstances, they'll invariably come up with some cash to buy things to put you over, and/or an amenity pack as appropriate. I'd far rather arrive safely with an airline I can trust (and I've been obliged to fly with some I couldn't).

[GwynM]

As another trivial millimetre in the downward slide, they've now removed the bacon from the breakfasts on the internal morning flight to ABZ (at least they did today:()

[TheTiresome1]

As a trivial observation, when bigger issues are at stake, the last 2 occasions I have had the much-vaunted "Bacon Roll" [in the air and in a Club lounge] it was bordering on inedible. In future I shall bring my own rations to ensure my well-being, because BA Club simply doesn't deliver.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

From the Cabin Crew Thread ...

From the courts website....

Judgment in the following case will be given at 10.30am on Friday 19th February 2010 by Sir Christopher Holland
TLQ/09/1107 Malone & ors v British Airways Plc

At which point we may see some clarity about what the future holds for the pax as well as the CC. ;)

[Seat62K]

Above all else, what has put me off travelling Club World is BA's attitude towards service recovery.

In he past the Miles credited to me when things went wrong left me feeling positive towards the airline. Now complaints are treated differently.

By the way, I, too, think the bacon rolls onboard are truly awful. I was offered one at breakfast a couple of months ago and it was inedible. Add to that the fact that my flight from the West Coast arrived after the Arrivals Lounge had closed and I was peeved.

Does BA care? I don't think so.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

High Court ... Judge rules in favour of British Airways over crewing dispute.

[papa600]

Business Trip ABZ-LHR. £550.40 return. Packet of seeds as some kind of "snack". One hour 15 min flying time to LHR. One hour 20 min to deliver bags at T5. Tatty and dirty aircraft. How the mighty have fallen .... except the price.

[PAXboy]

I'm adding the following pebble to the information mountain in the vain hope that there is a member of BA management that has some influence to point out that it is too late.

Chatting with a family today who had to make a short notice trip from CPT to the UK for a funeral. After chatting about South Africa, I asked which carrier they were on for this trip: "Normally, BA business direct from CPT to LHR but, with this important trip, we came SAA Business. I don't really like their Airbus' but we could not take the risk of using BA. That said, BA Club is not what it was."

Probably time to close this thread, otherwise we're just all going to keep adding sorry stories to it.

[Final 3 Greens]

And the truly scary aspect, if you read the CC forum, is that a lot of BA cabin crew seem to think that they are providing service levels that are world beating.

I've never experienced 'bad' service on a BA flight, it is usually acceptable to good, but that is a very different thing to world leading.

From personal experience over the past few years, I have experienced superior service on Emirates, Swiss, Iberia (unbelievable, but true, long haul MAD -GRU) and Air Malta.

And BA ground service is often awful.

[Akrapovic]

[QUOTE]Business Trip ABZ-LHR. £550.40 return. Packet of seeds as some kind of "snack". One hour 15 min flying time to LHR. One hour 20 min to deliver bags at T5. Tatty and dirty aircraft. How the mighty have fallen .... except the price./QUOTE]

Can I ask why you paid so much ? You must have had other options?!

[Hunter58]

F3G

Good service on IBERIA? Lucky you, you have my total envy.

I was reading through this post and thought: welcome to the real world! That treatment sounds like daily OPS for the rest of the world...

[Final 3 Greens]

Hunter58

I have to admit that I only took 2 Iberia flights, there and back, but the service both ways was excellent, with lovely food (they actually brought a trolley around with hot dishes on proper plates and the roast suckling pig was excellent.)

The staff were friendly, too.

But when you read of other people's experiences, I accept that I must have been very lucky!

[Two-Tone-Blue]

@ PAXboy ... I'm adding the following pebble to the information mountain in the vain hope that there is a member of BA management that has some influence to point out that it is too late.

......

Probably time to close this thread, otherwise we're just all going to keep adding sorry stories to it.


I really feel it is useful to retain this focal point for those in BA Management who might read PPRuNe. We may be adding pebbles, as you so nicely expressed it, but I also live in hope that those responsible might take note of our overall feelings once the current 'problem' is resolved/clarified.

[Lukeafb1]

Referring to Final 3 Greens' post, I had an interesting experience on a BA flight from Houston last month.

My company always fly us either First or Business, with one exception - to and from Houston (because so many of us fly backwards and forwards from Houston).

Going out, BA lost my luggage, which eventually turned up two days later (yes, I was given $250.00 compensation which was appreciated).

HOWEVER, on the return flight, I was assigned seat 40A. As I got on the flight, a male cabin member was all over me and took me directly to seat 4A (First Class). Stupidly, I thought that since I was a Gold Card member, I had been bumped because of the inconvenience on the outward journey. But five minutes later the same member of the cabin staff looked at my Boarding pass as he went past my seat and all hell broke loose! He demanded that I get out of First and get back to my proper seat. I even had difficulties getting my jacket, which was in the wardrobe, because of his haste and bad manners.

As soon as we were airborne, I demanded to see the cabin Services Director. He listened sympathetically and said he would 'sort it out'. However as the aircraft was virtually full, he couldn't move me. I accepted that, but was still furious about the other cabin member.

When we landed, the CSD came back and gave me a bottle of very good wine 'for my inconvenience'. Well done!

However, because of the attitude of the first cabin member, it has cost BA a large amount of money. Because I have had to go to Singapore three times since the episode and guess what? I've travelled Singapore Airlines!:=

[Final 3 Greens]

Stupidly, I thought that since I was a Gold Card member, I had been bumped because of the inconvenience on the outward journey.

I once got upgraded at the door in exactly that way, no new boarding pass, just lead to a new seat.

Fortunately, I didn't get thrown out later :eek:

[PETTIFOGGER]

How disappointing to read this thread. I don’t have to use BA any more, so I don’t. I travel to the Far East up to 4 times a year in business class, and SQ, MH, CX, BR, BI, QF, TG, EK could all teach BA cabin crew and their management a thing or two. It is an attitude problem, and the sooner they lose it the better. All other sections of BA seem fine.

[Flight Detent]

Hey..Final 3 Greens,

Good on ya!
That sort of thing probably happens multiple times, can't quite work out if it's to solve a CG problem or just because the opportunity is there and you happen to be the lucky one!

Anyway, when I flew, (not in BA), those sorts of thoughts go through my mind when the CG is slightly amiss (from the weight sheet setting), at rotate!

Cheers...FD...:bored:

[bjh123]

Not wishing to say 'when I was a lad', but I will. My first flight with BOAC/Cunard was a long time ago - economy service was similar to somewhere between business and first today (there was no business class in those days of course). Recently on a flight from Antigua - about eight hours or so, after at least one night stop for the crew, pax were asked to be quiet at the rear of the cabin as the cabin crew were trying to sleep. I like BA but am sad that so many are hell bent on their own destruction - a bird in the hand and all that.

[Lukeafb1]

BJH123,

I'm sure that this has been mentioned more than once, but your latest post prompts me to reply.

I have noticed a lot in the last 3 or 4 years, that on long haul, regardless of the time of day, the priorities of cabin crew are:

1. Feed the animals as quickly as possible,
2. Close all of the window blinds (morning and afternoon),
3. Encourage the animals to sleep.

Thus, for most of the flight, these self satisfied crews have little or nothing to do, except sleep themselves.:suspect:

[Scumbag O'Riley]

Not sure you can blame the crew for that. Back in the good olde days (when tickets were absolutely ridiculously expensive and you had less choice of carrier than today and going to places like New York was the 'holiday of a lifetime') they would have all sorts of goodies to hand out. Nowadays it must be even more boring for them than it is for us lot with our in flight entertainment (which is far far far superior than it was).

[bjh123]

scumbag o'reilly

If then the crews are so bored that they have nothing else top do on an eight hour flight than sleep, why all of the angst about reduction in the number of crew who are there to be bored

[TightSlot]

...the priorities of cabin crew are:

1. Feed the animals as quickly as possible,
2. Close all of the window blinds (morning and afternoon),
3. Encourage the animals to sleep.

What should they be doing instead? No - I'm not being cute - It's an absolutely straight question.

I operate LHR-LAX weekly. First service takes about 3 hours, second about 2, plus 30 minutes of duties post take-off (pax documentation, galley prep etc.) and 30 minutes pre-arrival (galley prep, cabin prep etc.). That leaves about a 5 hour window in the middle with no service, usually leading to 2 x 2hour rest periods (half the crew on each).

The non-resting crew have various technical duties to perform (bar stock counting, service prep) but these are fairy low level tasks: We also do a water/juice cabin run in economy approximately every half hour.

We ask window shade blinds to be closed on all flight, the difference being that on a daytime/daylight flight it's a simple request, whereas we are more assertive on night/sleep sectors. On all sectors, a majority of customers snooze.

So back to the question - what should we be doing? If it is something else, please let me know, and we'll do it - what would be the point in not doing so?

Thus, for most of the flight, these self satisfied crews have little or nothing to do, except sleep themselves

As you will see from the above, your perception of crew taking a majority of the flight as rest is demonstrably inaccurate. May I ask you to explain how the taking of rest creates a crew member who is "self satisfied"? At first sight, the two appear to have no coherent relation to each other?

And BTW... I have never heard crew members refer to customers as 'Animals' and would take sanctions against any that I did.

[Scumbag O'Riley]

scumbag o'reilly

If then the crews are so bored that they have nothing else top do on an eight hour flight than sleep, why all of the angst about reduction in the number of crew who are there to be boredWell I never said that they had nothing to do but sleep. What I said was that they no longer have the goodies to hand out to the passengers so they have less reason to be seen in the main cabin. My assupltion is that makes it more boring for them, though I could be wrong of course, don't do that job.

The angst you mention is because..........

Ah another thread.

One does remember the 'good olde days' of the MAN-LHR shuttle when you would be served a drink, three course meal, coffee, drink, liqueur, and sweeties. And sometimes they even got the trolleys in place and were in their seats before we landed.

Cost a small fortune of course but they certainly worked their butts off.

And edited as I forgot the hot towels lol

[Skipness One Echo]

We ask window shade blinds to be closed on all flight

I know I keep getting demands in broad daylight to shut out the light. I thought there was an eyemask in the pack if you are THAT keen on an afternoon nap. It comes as across as for YOUR benefit, not mine. Give em wine and see 'em off to sleep I'm afraid is the impression.

[TightSlot]

But people are keen on a nap, and rather a lot of them - I'm not imagining it. To help them, we ask for blinds to be drawn down: You have the option to refuse, preferably politely - but being asked the question seems to irritate you?

I'm having problems understanding this apparent antagonism - With a large group of people, there will always be differing requirements. Your crew have attempted to meet the needs of a majority and as a result are branded as being something akin to selfish or lazy.

I'll ask you also, Skipness One Echo - What should we be doing instead? I assume that your preferred option is to have all the window blinds open, so let's pretend that now they are so - what should the crew now do with their time?

[Hartington]

Tighslot, the issue I have with the blinds down policy is that it is not always implemented by crews politely. Last but one trip I made the crew just came along and shut the blinds - no comment of any kind - just down (and done with a tray to extend his reach). So I opened mine up and asked the crew member who did it that next time would he please have the courtesy to ask. I'm not saying it happens every time and it certainly happens on more airlines than just BA but if I'm sitting next to a window I like to be able to look out of it. These days I'm made to feel like a pariah for doing so even when the crew have "asked".

[TightSlot]

I quite agree with you Hartington - the issue, in this case, appears to be with the actions and (lack of) courtesy of an individual crew member. I absolutely support your answer to that crew member. I feel that we are entitled to 'ask' (courteously) and you are entitled to refuse (courteously) - It seems a reasonable way to proceed.

I have been hammering away today, at the more general, generic principle, and am anxious to hear answers in that area, without a sidetrack into the specifics.

[Final 3 Greens]

A couple of months ago, I fell asleep on a Swiss long haul day flight and awoke to find all 3 blinds around me closed.

And the CC member had done it without waking me up.

Pretty good eh?

[Lukeafb1]

Tightslot,

You may never have heard a member of the cabin staff refer to us as 'animals', but I certainly have. On one specific flight from Geneva to LHR(admittedly some years ago), a fellow passenger with a large rucksack accidentally knocked an already seated passenger. The exact words of said cabin crew member was "Some of these animals should be in the hold with the baggage". This was overheard by three or four of us. I happen to know that at least two passengers wrote to BA as a result.

[Lukeafb1]

Tightslot,

A serious question for you as you are a Moderator. Why do the number of 'posts' credited to a contributor tend to vary and (usually) reduce over a period of time. I'm credited with something over 100. What happened to the other 500/600 which I used to have??

[Capetonian]

I have seen the way some passengers behave towards each other and towards airline crew (ground and airborne) and to call them animals is a grave insult ............. to our four-legged friends.

[TightSlot]

Why do the number of 'posts' credited to a contributor tend to vary
I believe there was some technical work on this some time ago - the problem being that some contributors were confusing the quantity of posts with the quality and thereby seeking some form of status within the PPRuNe community: The reverse is of course the truth.

Lukeafb1 - I note your anecdote about 'animals': Do you have further evidence from which a more general conclusion may be reached? I wondered also whether you had reached any answer with regard to the original question that I posted?

[Skipness One Echo]

I feel that we are entitled to 'ask' (courteously) and you are entitled to refuse (courteously) - It seems a reasonable way to proceed.

That's the ideal. In the real world, it often involves a quick march down the cabin followed by an "order" to shut the blinds. You can't seriously be unaware that refusing a ("legitimate") order from Cabin Crew is a criminal offence. There are plenty who know this and have no fear in getting the implication across.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

@ TightSlot ... thanks for chipping in here.

Blinds. I think the blinds issue is a matter for the individual CC and the pax concerned. As you rightly say, a lot of pax want to nap [and a lot of the IFE rhymes with that ;)] so it's a fair call. By the time you finish, one cloud looks much like another anyway! And I have 'suffered' from other folks having blinds up, with a low sun, to the extent that I can't even see the IFE screen :sad:
Perhaps some CC haven't quite hacked the customer relations aspect on handling this one?

CC "Down-Time". Again, your summary of CC duties during a LH sector spell it out quite clearly. Apart from popping outside to clean the windows, I'm not sure what you're supposed to do between services either! ;) The water/juice round [which, I guess, also serves as an overall "everyone's OK"] is about all you could be expected to do. However, that may depend on the airline: I've just double-checked with the OH and she's equally unaware of that water/juice round happening very often on BA to IAD in Club.
But, equally, how many "half-hours" do you have left on an 8-hour sector once you've done the main tasks? Maybe 3 max?


I think, overall, the fact that pax are having a good whinge at the moment is because of uncertainty over future bookings with a certain carrier, and potential financial losses. Some of us are actually bloody cross: in my case, you knew that already :)

[TightSlot]

I'm kinda in there with you TTB.

One of the great irritants in my (PPRuNe) life at the moment is the way that attitudes to all CC are being coloured by the BA IR situation: In some cases, it has proved to be a useful hook to hang pre-existing prejudices on. In other cases, there are simply vacant seats on a bandwagon (what is a bandwagon, anyway?) that are jumped on. Most airlines are not BA, and most CC are not BASSA militants - to pretend otherwise is simply to demonstrate a poor understanding of the truth.

In my airline career of nearly 35 years (32 of it flying) the overwhelming majority of crew have been decent, courteous, hardworking people who actually seek to please their customers: The behaviour of the minority has been, and continues to be, used by some as a stick to beat the majority with. In fact, in my view, most airline crew genuinely seek to offer a standard of service which is almost absent in other industries.

The behaviour of an overwhelming number of passengers, in turn, has been a suitable match - most people are courteous and well-meaning and pleasant to talk to.

Where we as crew to attempt to generalise about passengers in the same terms that are used regularly to attack crew in this forum, we would be rightly excoriated.

A strange day - I am still waiting for an answer to the original question posed, which so far, has not been answered. What should CC be doing in this brave new world where all the blinds are up and the passengers are waiting for... what?

[Jarvy]

I like my blinds up even at night but understand that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of one, to quote Mr. Spock. I have in over 30 years of air travel only come accross 2 bad cabin crews, one on a charter flight to and from the Maldives, the other was on a loco. Both these airlines we have never used again.
I am sure if I sat down for a drink with cabin crew we would all have different views on everything but so would any group of friends, so we as passengers should not use use the cabin crews political views as ammunition againest them.
As for what cabin crew should do when not running round after us moaning slf (my words) then I think as a whole they have got it about right.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

@ TightSlot ... absolutely right. The current [may I mention BA?] situation has got a lot of pax, especially J-class, inflamed. I was one of those, for which I have paid a severe penalty. I still hope that one day my ban might be lifted.

I think tempers have now cooled, as the High Court and general developments have become clearer. Sadly, for whatever reason and without a lot of logic, as you rightly say, [I]many CC have become undeserved victims of the few.

Have I had any major issues with CC? Only on one sector with one airline - and almost every time. On other sectors with that airline, the service has been superb. I have insufficient experience of other airlines to comment constructively - I basically only regularly fly one airline on one route.

I have great sympathy for those who are going through the mill at the moment. I think a lot of pax are just venting their frustrations about potential disruption, costs, value for money, poor terminals at LHR and all the other irritations that make flying in J less than we expect. In the process, the high visibility of the BA dispute brings all those frustrations and irritations to a focus.


Your question, so far unanswered .. I don't know ;)
But I will tell you a tale, from the days when we flew MaxJet STN>IAD. OK, I know it was a low-density, all-J operation. But the CC were forever walking around, not just 'being there' but actually talking to us.
Don't you want some more wine? NO - I have to drive at the other end!!
OK, have a bottle to enjoy later.
So, can I get you anything? Surely you must want something?
They were forever there, not tucked away in the galley.

One CC, Davida [a lovely lady who we'd flown with a few times] bumped into us, with the rest of the Crew, on arrival land-side at STN [where things are efficient and you get your bags quickly!].
We BOTH got big hugs and "See you next time". :ok:

I know that's an extreme case, but it shows what COULD be done. I just never get anything close to that on my sector with my airline [and I have very limited choices].

Happy Mod-ing. :cool:

[occasional]

I always ask for a window seat so that I can look out of the window - even clouds can be interesting - and have found it very annoying to be asked to close the blind. To some extent this is clearly because the crew are obviously expecting one to do so.

It is the only reason I have ever found to deliberately avoid a particular airline.

[Final 3 Greens]

One of the great irritants in my (PPRuNe) life at the moment is the way that attitudes to all CC are being coloured by the BA IR situation:

It's only an internet forum ;)

I get it in the neck in my professional life for the actions of other professionals at the equivalent of BA in my industry.

Unfortunately, every industry has groups of people who are opinion formers in a negative way.

I've mentioned stereotyping and labelling on this forum in the past and this is what is happening here at the moment.

In general, most cabin crew do a good or better job in my experience, although some (and it has to be said UK carriers) seem to have a small amount of crew who are a little stroppy (whether this is personality or behaviourally driven is difficult to assess.)

[stormin norman]

Don't you want some more wine? NO - I have to drive at the other end!!
OK, have a bottle to enjoy later.

And you wonder why maxjet went bust !

[L337]

But I will tell you a tale, from the days when we flew MaxJet STN>IAD. OK, I know it was a low-density, all-J operation. But the CC were forever walking around, not just 'being there' but actually talking to us.

Don't you want some more wine? NO - I have to drive at the other end!!
OK, have a bottle to enjoy later.
So, can I get you anything? Surely you must want something?

They were forever there, not tucked away in the galley.

Would you expect that from the CC on an overnight flight of 10- 12 hour duration? Do you want/ need that level of attention?

Very often, as a passenger, I just want to be left alone.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

@ L337 ... yup, there's a difference between day and night. There's also a difference between pax gazing into space and working on a laptop, couples versus singletons etc etc. Which is possibly how CC make decisions on who to talk to, I'd guess ... not forgetting eye contact and a friendly smile [either from the pax or the CC].

I don't mind, so long as the option exists.

[PAXboy]

To attempt to answer the question ... FINE to be in the galley and chatting with each other - but if we walk in to ask for something, or even those that are nosing for a chat with you DON'T turn with a look on your face as if we have just walked into your private lounge. By all means find a polite way to not be drawn into conversation but don't pretend you have a meal service to prepare when I know it's four hours to lights on time. It happens very, very rarely but it has the capacity to irritate mightily.

In my work, which is in public, I am often at a venue standing and chatting with colleagues on the sidelines, whilst waiting for a particular sequence to be completed and for me to then be in direct action again. In this, I am the senior person (for the sake of this thread, like CSD, but I'm actually the Cpt!) and if someone comes up to ask me a question then I break off in mid-sentence to smile and answer them for as long as it takes. When they move on, I/we pick up the conversation without a break. This is standard for folks in my line of work and I shall be doing this again in two hours time.


On the windows front (or is that 'on the windows at the side' front? :rolleyes:) I have:
chosen a window seat
selected the row in the cabin
chosen port or starboard side for this particular sector
so I WILL keep the blind open!If they get really pointy about it, I half close the blind. Often, I wake in the early hours to watch the sunrise and will peek through a 1/3 open blind to do so. I am always polite in this matter.

[Andy_S]

I always ask for a window seat so that I can look out of the window - even clouds can be interesting - and have found it very annoying to be asked to close the blind.

I feel the same. Unfortunately, with the greatest of respect to TightSlot, refusal is rarely an option. If the CC are determined that all blinds are closed, then that's what will happen. I wouldn't dream of kicking up a fuss, but even if I did I suspect it would be counter productive.

Up to a point, I can sympathise. If you're on an eastbound flight departing LHR late at night, then it's going to be getting light after 4-5 hours. Under those circumstances, fair enough. It's the daytime flights when the blinds are pulled almost as soon as you've been fed that bug me.

[Scumbag O'Riley]

It's an interesting question. With 200 hundred people jammed like sardines into a metal tube do we have to try a little harder to get on with each other? I've spent a few flights with all the blinds down except one, and that single window which is pointed directly at the sun is quite honestly a nuisance. Do we have the (probably non) right to say "I got the windows seat so it's my blind" and if you don't like it then tough? Although i don't think cabin crew have lawful authority to make you close somebody elses nuisance blind I am always glad when they do. But then there have been some glorious views out there which it would be a shame to have missed. Not often of course, but it does happen, and maybe it is just tough on the others that they don't have a window seat when that happens.

[Lukeafb1]

TightSlot,

See my earlier post on page 8. Yet another example of total lack of respect for the SLF.

I'd be the first to admit that not all cabin crew are the same, far from it. But you should know, that it only takes one idiot to tar all cabin crew with the same brush.

[TightSlot]

...that it only takes one idiot to tar all cabin crew with the same brush

Not for those posting here who are adults: They have sense enough to be able to draw a distinction and avoid a generalised conclusion based on a specific individual..

[lowcostdolly]

Pls can I ask a question here as somebody who has never travelled BA longhaul.....premium (I wish) or otherwise. CC don't seriously tell you (politely or otherwise) what to do with your window blinds do they? I have to say as paying SLF I would not tolerate this whatever the time of day.

I do however travel VS longhaul a fair amount. No mandate from the CC is forthcoming on this. SLF do what they want with the blinds except on takeoff/landing when they are open.

VS issue in their amenity kits an eyeshade, at least they did the last time I flew but cost cutting could prevail since......

These shades give an individual the choice to shut out light if they want to sleep.....VS acknowledge the needs of the one (ref jarvy) and the many as well :ok:

It is an individual "blind" so to speak. Do BA not do the same especially in premium where you do pay enough to get one of these gratis :E

Anyway back to the original thread title.........

[Scumbag O'Riley]

CC don't seriously tell you (politely or otherwise) what to do with your window blinds do they?If the light is causing a nuisance why not? Just like if you have 'your' security light shining from outside 'your' property into somebody elses. Or if you have 'your' hifi system making a noise which causes a nuisance to neighbours. The more I think about it the more selfish I think it can be on occasion, especially given the conditions found in economy class.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

I think we may be drifting a bit, folks. ;)

[Final 3 Greens]

Pls can I ask a question here as somebody who has never travelled BA longhaul.....premium (I wish) or otherwise. CC don't seriously tell you (politely or otherwise) what to do with your window blinds do they? I have to say as paying SLF I would not tolerate this whatever the time of day.

BA CC have never done this to me in premium (or Y, although it is a long time since I flew Y on long haul.)

BA long haul service has always been in a range acceptable to good in my experience.

[MPN11]

I have noticed a growing tendency of the 'blinds culture' in the last couple of years. It may, of course, be result of customer feedback.

Is that too reasonable a comment? :cool:

[Rusland 17]

CC don't seriously tell you (politely or otherwise) what to do with your window blinds do they?I have travelled on several airlines where the cabin crew has insisted (politely but firmly, with no indication that the passenger has a choice) that the blinds be lowered - off the top of my head I can remember this happening on ANA, Ethiopian and BA in the past few months.

It doesn't bother me, because I prefer not to have a window seat, but some passengers clearly resent having to block out the view and the light.

[Skipness One Echo]

I resent someone telling me to block out the sun when it's not shining on anyone and won't for the remainder of the flight in broad daylight just so the CC can condition the passengers to sleep and be less demanding.

I generally do as I am TOLD then it goes straight back up. IF it was shining into someone's face then I would lower it, but the option is never presented.

If it's a massive problem and you feel the need to nap in what is MY daytime, then buy a little mask for your eyes.

[One Outsider]

MY seat, MY window, MY blind.

Over the last 10 to 15 years the industry have change a great deal, not for the better. It is not only terms & conditions that have declined, but also attitudes and behaviour.

Challenging and questioning orders and requests from crews, becoming argumentative and belligerent is no longer unusual.

Now people even seem to assume that they own the seat and the immediate surroundings they sit in, and that it is their's to do with as they please.

[Capetonian]

Between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea, but I have to travel next week and had a choice of BA, EZY, or Eurostar.

Price is not really an issue, but BA was €140, EZY for flights at the same times/days was €250, so it looks as though BA are losing goodwill and customer confidence, and Eurostar was €210. I chose Eurostar for comfort and ophefully reliability..... hopefully there will be no snow ...

[spock33]

I know the vast majority are hard-working and professional

I quite agree. Last week's LGW-TPA was a classic in excellent customer service. Friendly, efficient & done with a smile, & we arrived 45 minutes early.

Let all we SLF members hope that the present situation within BA will soon be resolved for the sake of both the pax & the hard working & loyal CC.

[Skipness One Echo]

assume that they own the seat and the immediate surroundings they sit in, and that it is their's to do with as they please

No they just paid a whole lot of money to sit by a window they're not allowed to look out of.

As for BA LGW. They're HERTZ. They're number two, and try harder.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

Greetings, spock33. Delighted to hear you had a good flight. Proof that not all CC are tarred with the same brush, but then we knew that already. :ok:

[Animal87500]

The non-resting crew have various technical duties to perform (bar stock counting, service prep) but these are fairy low level tasks:

..beyond parody.:D

[Two-Tone-Blue]

Animal87500 ... stand by for a VERY short time on PPRuNe.

As a FIRST post, taking the pi66 out of a moderator, I really suggest you should stop using that stuff.

[PAXboy]

Animal87500 welcome aboard. All the moderators (mods) in PPRuNe are volunteers who give their time at no cost.

Our main mod is Tight Slot and he is a full time CC for an international carrier and has worked in the industry for several decades. Personally, I think he runs this forum with a light touch and he does have a sense of humour. But ...

Lastly, bear in mind that we are all here as guests of Captain D Fine and his crew. The Ts & Cs you will already have signed up to. I'm not saying that us old lags in here (like self) are better, but we have had rows before and we generally try to avoid them. Do stay, there is a baggage container load of information available (Boom! Boom!) and MANY good laughs.

[Animal87500]

Sorry guys.

I can see now that counting bottles is kinda technical and of course Tightslot's sense of humour and his habit of never getting up his own ar$e is legendary:ok:

(Phew, that's me not banned!)

[Andy_S]

Oh. I thought you were poking a bit of fun at Tightslot's "fairy low level tasks". :}

[PAXboy]

Thread drift
Animal Have you always been a chancer?? ;)

[MrSydney]

I fly Air New Zealand fairly often:ok: and re blinds up or down. Now I love looking out the window. So on the overnight sectors I always close the blind half an hour after take off and obviously open the blind once we get begin descent - though on the AKL LAX sector I open just as breakfast is being served 2 hours outside LA.

When I fly LHR LAX in J I just love the view flying over Greenland and Canada so always select a seat eg 6A to minimise disturbing other pax whya may wish to sleep. I think that is fairly reasonable.

I was outraged when flying TG in J BKK NRT departing at 7.30am to be told to close the blinds as other pax wanted to sleep. I said no and the FA did not press the issue as there were only 6 other people in J.....BTW , really enjoyed the view in that sector also.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

How do Premium Passengers feel after today's decision by Unite?

Do we get a refund if we end up flying Business with AA instead of BA? Or if we get WT meals instead of the Club stuff we paid for? This story will, sadly, run until we paying pax get clarity.

[Sorry, TightSlot, but it has to be mentioned].

[Rusland 17]

At least business passengers are likely to get something to eat. Economy passengers will have to make do with, at best, a cold salad, and potentially nothing at all.

But passengers have been advised that "...you can bring your own food onboard as long as you stay within your permitted hand baggage allowances." Well, that's okay then.

[ExXB]

Seeing as we will not receive the service we will pay for I am going to fly on someone else, anyone else until both groups of twits finally come to their senses. And I certainly don't expect BA will feel obliged to compensate us for reduced service.

Even if my sponsor insists I fly BA because they are the cheapest (which is quite common these days, at least out of this small European country) I'll pay the difference out of my own pocket to fly Star or even Skyteam.

Having experienced summers of discontent over recent years (including travelling F during the catering strike - when I was even refused a glass for the beer I had nicked from the lounge.) I'm going to avoid BA and LHR for the foreseeable future.

A pox on both of their houses.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

@ ExXB ... Lucky you that your 'sponsor' pays.

Some of us pay our own money, and may have a slightly more robust view on proceedings. And I certainly don't expect BA will feel obliged to compensate us for reduced service.

So you don't care about paying £xxxx for bu66er-all service? Deffo on expenses, then.

My company [I mean the one I own 50% of] does not fly BA any more. Personally, I regrettably need to. Please spare us your tears over your company's travel budget.

OMG, you're not a former 'vertical twin-jet' driver, are you? No, you must be Eng Wg ;)

[Jarvy]

This thread is about how bad BA has become (in some peoples view) but people forget they don't have to travel BA. There are lots of other airlines out there some even have problems of their own.
I am flying BA tomorrow back to the UK, only in WT+ as we are paying not the company, and returning on March 24th. BA have offered a refund or rebooking for the return leg even though the cabin crew should be working normally. Will I take them up on this offer, simple answer NO.
I believe that I should carry on as booked to support BA and the majority of the hard working cabin crew. There are more important things in life than worrying about what meal, if any I will get, or if my plane will be late.
Happy flying
Jarvy

[Two-Tone-Blue]

@ Jarvy ... there are NOT lots of airlines on some sectors that people want/need to use. However, I'm delighted to see your confidence in the "The World's Former Favourite Airline".

I'll say more on that when I discover whether I get my pre-paid flight in Club just after Easter ;)

[jetset lady]

As someone who IS working through the strike, I accept that I will have to run the gauntlet of certain members of the general public that can't seem to comprehend that the fact I'm in uniform suggests that I'm not striking. And also of my striking colleagues with their very long memories. But I really never expected that I would also be dealing with passengers that only seem to care about the fact that they won't get their full Club meal, due to the aircraft being crewed by a mix of actual CC and volunteers. A mix without which, the aircraft would be going nowhere at all.

Yes, I'm well aware you've paid for it, but please give us a break! I don't expect anyone to be grateful but a little understanding wouldn't go amiss. Or is that too much to expect? Maybe you'd rather go nowhere? Or take up the re-route, re-book or refund option?

I'm well aware that this post will make me highly unpopular but those of us that are working through this ridiculous fiasco are getting it from all sides right now and I've had just about as much as I can take. :{

[TightSlot]

I'm watching, while packing prior to checkout for LAX-LHR. All the good comments about me are accurate and the bad ones are all rubbish.

Play nice, please, while I'm at work: When I get home, your mother will tell me if you've been naughty!



:)

[Two-Tone-Blue]

@ JSL ... I can undertand completely how you must be feeling. I really mean that. I'm so sorry for what you are being put through.

Bear with us SLF - we're really pi66ed off, because we're paying £xxxx for the possibility of a business trip, or a holiday. I know that's a different situation to yours, but it matters to us. It's like putting a stamp on a letter and then 'hoping' it arrives - I know that feeling, because I have a very valuable parcel somewhere out there in GPO-Land. ;)


You are brave enough, and sensible enough, to enter the bear-pit of PPRuNe - and you have your eyes open. You are not a dribbling drum-beater, you care about your job and your company. And, actually, so do the SLF.


Please accept a personal hug from this SLF. If you are doing LHR>IAD, I may even offer one in person.

Best of luck :cool:

[Two-Tone-Blue]

I'm watching, while packing prior to checkout for LAX-LHR. All the good comments about me are accurate and the bad ones are all rubbish.

Play nice, please, while I'm at work: When I get home, your mother will tell me if you've been naughty!

OMG, F40 is my mother? I thought she was dead? :eek:

Have a good one. Do you ever do LHR>IAD? Ooops, your NZ, aren't you!

[jetset lady]

TTB,

Thank you. That means a lot. For all my sins, I do love working for BA but sometimes, it feels remarkably similiar to trying to run up the "down" escalator. I do understand why you and other passengers get frustrated. We do too, especially with some of the seemingly bizarre product cutbacks that have been implemented. (Don't even get me started on hot towels in Club Europe!) But with any luck, once this mess is sorted out, we can get back to concentrating on what we used to do best. Maybe I'm too idealistic but I continue to live in hope!

The hug is much appreciated but I'm afraid you'll have to head towards the caribbean rather than IAD to offer me one in person. I'm LGW based. ;)

Jsl

P.S. Didn't we get married the last time we spoke on here?

[ExXB]

No, I'm now an independent consultant and I fly with whomever is paying my fees is willing to put me on. That is usually the lowest C fare on long-haul routes and recently this has usually been BA.

I used to BA Gold before I left my previous full-time job, but have slipped to silver. Business is quite tough at the moment (in all senses of the word) but I still manage to get a couple of long-haul trips each year.

While still working I found myself disappointed time and again with poor service recovery. The catering strike is just one example, but I've got a few other examples of how/where BA have let me down. I won't bore you with them.

While employed I stuck with BA because I wanted to retain my status. Now that I'm self employed I've come to realise that such status was mostly illusionary - you have to get all those tier points each and every year to stay current - and the fact that you get 4000 one year and only 400 the next doesn't give you a 2200 average - BA seems less interested in your custom in your off-years.

Twice I found it impossible to use my 'gold upgrade for two' (without paying an unreasonable base fare) and my request to extend the validity was turned down the first time, and extend only for six months the second. As you know it takes a significant amount of tier points to get one of these.

I too travel fairly frequently via LHR to IAD and I agree that on-board service is poor. But as someone commented earlier why should the destination affect the quality of service?

I don't expect I'll be travelling BA for some time to come.

[tomkins]

EXxB
Af klm are going on strike soon so watch you're back

[MPN11]

Anyone feeling very slightly more confident about forward bookings with BA?

Even if there's no hot food on Long-Haul, according to the BA website?
Or indeed any mention of credited BA Miles for getting substantially less than you paid for in Club?

I know WW has a skip of sh1t falling on him, but you might think there'd be some compensation for the premium pax that keep the bloody thing afloat. Perhaps it will just 'happen'?

[Jetlegs]

tomkins, that is bad news.

First I´ve heard about it though. What do you base it on please?

[flapsforty]

OMG, F40 is my mother? I thought she was dead? :eek:


Were I your mother, you´d be a durn sight more polite! ;)

[Two-Tone-Blue]

Hello, Mum :ok:

Having seen the latest BA re-schduling data, I am now a cooler person. The only difference [apart from very minor timing changes, would seem to be replacing a 744 with a 777. It therefore appears I will not lose c.£5,000 in pre-booked flights/hotel/car rental/pet hotel/transit hotel.

Flapsforty, I apologise again, publicly, for getting over-heated [and posting unwisely] on the CC Thread. Lesson is learned. ;)

[spock33]

Don't mess with T-T-B. Marry me instead on 2167 on Sunday 21 March, returning from TPA.

My wife will be asleep in row 3 & won't notice!

Seriously though, good luck to all BAs' hard working CC members. I hope the service home is as good as the outbound flight.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

@ spock33 ... I see from the BA website you get a 777 this time, but at least it looks like you get to fly.
Row 3 - surely not in F? Must be a 3-class grockle-bus :)

Looking forward to the PXR - give a smile to the CC for me. :cool:

[spock33]

The 777 is the normal carrier on this route. J has now been upgraded with the new seats & IVOD so although they're slower, I prefer them to the 74s.

Less of the grockles, you're showing your age!

Full report Monday pm.:ok: