Three more airbases to close?

[typerated]

So says say the times...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6999920.ece (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article6999920.ece)

At this rate, it is hard to imagine there be anything left to chop in the SDR!

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Privatising parts of the Royal Fleet Auxiliary, the organisation that repairs and supplies naval vessels.

Repairs, eh. That's the function of DILIGENCE clearly understood then.

OTC
Founded in 1908, it has long been unpopular with left-wing politicians who see it as a subsidy for the privileged.

Another New Labia tick in the box then.


bases, at 19 universities, serve cheap drink and teach military drill, weapons training and fieldcraft


So that's where they went wrong; "cheap drink".

[Squirrel 41]

Typerated,

Thanks for this. The problem with this is not the decisions per se - cuts are coming and aren't going to be good - but that these cuts are a defence review prior to the defence review which will limit the options available to the real review post-election. Can't believe that this is the way to make good policy.

On the "three airbases to close" claim, who knows what this means? As this is a RUMOUR network... at one level could be Lyneham, Cottesmore and another (e.g. Scampton), which could be in effect double counting of existing plans. Or it could be herald something much more significant (e.g. outsourcing pilot training to NFTC and moving Typhoon to Kinloss would theoretically allow you to close Leuchars, Linton and Valley).

Fundamentally, though, SDR 2011 needs maximum flexibility - not short-term cuts that constrain decision making.

S41

[Diablo Rouge]

There have been rumours simmering for some time about the potential loss of an airbase in Scotland. I personally would tink twice nowadays about purchasing property in Forres for I believe that ISK days are numbered.

In addition to rumblings in the press; the demise of MR1, and central England, read Waddington, as a favoured base for MRA4. Also that an RAF presence would remain in the form of Lossiemouth which may have development potential for the long(er) term.

Of course in the finest traditions of the Royal Air Force, whichever base has just had millions spent on it is bound to close.
Future Brize: http://www.navitron.org.uk/forum/Smileys/classic/tumbleweed.gif

[typerated]

Squirrel,

Totally agree on the (lack of) good policy. SDR may be forced down certain paths by these announcements – certainly seems that minds have already been made up on some subjects – Harrier retirement a done deal already?

I note you say SDR 2011 – I had presumed that it would have all been done and dusted this year?

If these are new closures, perhaps they might be of the Woodvale, Topcliffe, Syerston ilk? Surely that would save a few bob?

Although, as the article does not say they will be RAF bases, perhaps the FAA and/or AAC are going to be joining in the fun?

[green granite]

Nine new Mk4 Nimrod reconnaissance aircraft were due to come into service next week, replacing the discredited Mk2. But Quentin Davies, the defence equipment minister, has cancelled a visit to the Nimrod base at RAF Kinloss, Morayshire. Sources blame the £30m annual maintenance costs.

“We expect to have only one or two aircraft flying until 2012 and the rest are going to be parked up until we can find some money to fly them,” an RAF source said.

My bolding, if we cant afford a bit of petrol to fly them then what the hell are we doing committing troops to Afghanistan. That really does confirm we have become a third rate power.

[A and C]

If the OTC is to be shut down then the UAS is likely to be next in the sights of Nu Labia for the axe the cost per person must be huge compaired with the OTC.

The big problen is that UK PLC has been put in sutch a big hole by the curent tennant of ten Downing street (assisted by the last one!) that it is hard to see how in the short term any other Goverment could not continue with the spending reductions.

GG I doubt if the money can be found to upgrade UK PLC to the status of "Third rate"

[Doctor Cruces]

Stop giving it away hand over fist in benefits to the great uwashed.

In my present incarnation I administer benefits to people who get twice what I earn a week, in benefits. If we were to curtail this, we could save a few bob and maybe afford some petrol for the cabs!!

Fed up of not being able to get to see claimants when I want to because they're "in America for three weeks" or something similar.

Give up shelling out so inadequates can continue breeding ad infinitum and maybe we could get some good kit and actually afford to operate it.

Never happen but I can dream
11

Doc C :mad:

[Squirrel 41]

Typerated

It's of course possible to get a Defence Review done this afternoon - but done properly, with proper thinking and input from across Government is not quick or easy; if they start in June, then it'd be a pretty decent effort to get something meaningful on the streets for May 11.

The problem is that the cash-crunch is imposing its own timetable, and to their shame, Ministers elected to kick this into the post-election long grass rather than grip this last summer, when I suspect that most of this was knowable. Too bad.

Not familiar with what's actually at Woodvale, Topcliffe or Syerston these days - but I doubt that it would save too much cash. (Or more precisely, nothing like enough to save MoD finances.)

No idea on a firm "let's bin GR9" decision yet - it would have to be a part of the CVF decision, and though I don't expect CVF to survive, there's nothing to suggest that that decision has been made yet.

S41

[airborne_artist]

Not familiar with what's actually at Woodvale, Topcliffe or Syerston

Topcliffe is occupied by the Army as Alanbrooke Barracks, and home to an RA Regt, and that's been the case for nearly thirty years. The runways have been used as a satellite for Leeming (RN EFTS), Linton, and by VGS. I can't see there being any money to save by ceasing to use them.

[Tim McLelland]

Typical newspaper article really, full of half truths. Nimrod MRA4 obviously wasn't coming into service now, and the air bases possibly up for closure will be ones which have already been identified - so the story doesn't say anything new about the RAF.

It's fairly easy to see how things will unfold:-

Kinloss will close (despite the SC claiming otherwise). It will be redundant when the MRA4 relocates to Waddington (as it doubtless will).

Lyneham will close as planned. The local MP has started whining way too late.

Cottesmore will close as announced. Doubtless the Defence Review will most likely advocate the withdrawal of the entire Harrier fleet, in which case Wittering will go too.

The carriers and F-35 will surely be abandoned as part of the review. Not a moment too soon some would say. Tornado GR4 will remain in service at Lossie and Marham. Typhoons will continue at Coningsby and eventually Leuchars.

Leeming is still a mystery as it seems to be driven my local politics. Seems a safe bet that 100 Sqn will go to Valley or disband (and go civvy). There must still be quite an appetite to close the base but politics seems to be keeping it alive - for now.

Linton will go, and the aircraft (whatever replaces Tucano) will go to Valley.

Scampton will go, but only after the Red's Hawks run out of hours in a few years. Until then it seems secure if only to provide air space, once the team move to Waddington.

Think all of the above looks like a pretty safe bet;)

[1.3VStall]

Can anyone tell me when and why RAF stations became "air bases"?

[Roadster280]

Presumably sometime prior to the 1960s, when "Base Hangar" was built.

I should imagine it goes hand in hand with where fleets are "based".

Has the term "stationed" ever been applied to aircraft fleets? I wouldn't think so, only to personnel, and possibly units. "The Canberra was stationed at many RAF stations" sounds wrong.

Perhaps a "base" suggests more of a "Main Operating Base" than a backwater. Thus closing Brize Norton (as a MOB) would be much more far reaching than closing the RAF station near Formby, RAF Woodvale. It's a bit (lot!) of a stretch to call it a "base". Or to put it another way, Coltishall was a base closure, Sealand a station closure, even though Coltishall was indeed a Station.

Does it really matter? If this is right, there will be three less of them. That's what matters.

[Grabbers]

For what my opinion is worth, I reckon Lossie will house GR4 and Typhoon, Kipper, ahem, fleet, move to Waddington. Then we could lose 66% of RAF flying stations in Scotland.

Inverness, Glasgow, Edinburgh and Prestwick could carry the div commitment. Simples. Do I win £5 ?

[Two-Tone-Blue]

I depends on whether McBrown and the rest of McLabour want play McPolitics ... watch this space for McClosures in the Tory regions instead.

[Tim McLelland]

Disposal of the projected Typhoon fleet is already known (Coningsby and Leuchars). No mention of Lossie. Seems that Lossie is still likely to take some of the F-35 fleet although in my (and many other people's opinion) the aircraft is never going to even enter service, so I guess Lossie will last as long as the Tornado GR4 does - and then join the list of casualties. Kinloss must be likely to go much sooner. If (as seems to be likely now) the Nimrod MRA4's go to Waddington, it seems inevitable.

[Rigga]

"Air Base" "Base Hangar" and "Air Wings"
IMO - are all awful americanisms dragged in by people watching too many "Yee-haa" movies! (I can just imagine a sweaty Robert Mitchum taking a heavy drag on his cigar stub before bellowing "Seal the Base!" - whatever that meant?)

There were no "Base Hangars" built in the 60's, even at Brize...they were just big hangars.

Yes, the term "Base Maintenance" is used in civvy St. Thats because it comes from the alignment of JAR/EASA reg's with FAR's and dragged an americanism across with them.

Fair dinkum though - It does give it a guete bedeutung!

[grousehunter]

Tim - I'll bite...,

With your insistance that the hunter fleet be moved to Waddo could you tell me where they are going to go? I'm sure there is space to park them, but what of the "new" sim building at Kinloss, not to mention the buildings to accomodate NLS, 3 Sqns, Hanger space, dedicated Ops....etc etc. Where is the money going to come from to rebuild all this? (Oh i get it - by closing Kinloss...:ugh:)

What about schools, married quarters, messing?

While I respect many of your views I hope you are just fishing and that you don't want to lower morale anymore than it is already at Kinloss!

While i agree that to keep a station open for 9 aircraft may seem strange, hasn't Waddo operated like that for much longer? 7 E3D's (of which how many have been U/S ?) and 3 R1's. Of which only until last month the R1 was operational. (Astor mates I havn't forgotton you either.)

As Kinloss is much nicer, lets move Astor up to Kinloss, scrap the E3's and leave the siggies to operate out of Mildenhall. The Shadow lads can go to Cranwell.:E

[Pontius Navigator]

what of the "new" sim building at Kinloss,

What of the sim building? Moving an air wing does n't mean moving the sim. We thought nothing of flying Harrier guys to the US or F3 guys down to Coninsgby etc.

Many of the sim and ground school are contractor or civilian and they won't move.

There are also the stay behind personnel. They go to the new duty station but remain in their homes at the original base.

[grousehunter]

P N,
Are you honestly suggesting that entire crews travel back and forth from Waddo to kinloss to practice their skills in the Sim, including all the OCU crews every week? Dosn't sound very realistic to me. Anyway you now have Kinloss remaining open, so defeats the object.

[Biggus]

gh

We are all just armchair experts, making free with our opinions. However, I believe in the past the RAF has:

Used a sim at Gatwick for Tristar crews.
Flown helo (presumably Puma) crews to Norway to use a sim

So nothing would surprise me. While I realize that Kinloss is "safe" for now, people are talking post SDR, and an airbase with only 9 airframes on it looks very vulnerable (a 4* once told an audience I was in that 16 airframes was the "break even" point for Kinloss).

I know moving to Waddington was looked at previously, and there were many infrastructure issues that you have highlighted, but they are closing Lyneham and moving enough infrastructure to support 70-80 odd large aircraft to Brize, with the need to build extra quarters, etc, so it can be done if enough will is there (although many predict the closing of Lyneham and expansion of Brize will be a disaster!)

What may well save Kinloss is the expense involved in any move at a time when the MOD is broke.

We are all simply offering are own versions of "what if".

[grousehunter]

Hi Biggus,

I know. Didn't mean to come over too earnest. Funny how protective you get though about where you work/live. All good banter. And the funny thing is you never know whats going to happen, so best just go with it and look forward to a rockin hanger party!:ok:

[RumPunch]

Well for my pennies worth, It costs millions to relocate aircraft,people, etc to alternate stations I am sure we will all agree. The MRA4 set up is in place already at Kinloss, the next month will finalise that and everything is in place nearly (i say nearly loosely) to operate. If you were to move to Waddington, I am correct in thinking you would need to build new facilities hard standings , move personel and im sure thousands of other obstacles that need to be overcome. Its not an overnight operation but it would not be cheap. Having to return land back to its original glory , closing another famous base wont go so peacefully.

Where do they get the tens of millions do do this. Im sure the last Defence review it said it costs more to close a station than keep it open. Kinloss has a huge Nato paid for parking facility that im sure under agreement has to be kept ? it just does not make sense but yet again its down to people who think they know it all and scare monger.

Saying that its no hiding the fact that Morayshire is an SNP throne and what the hell favours would a Tory government give back.

[ursa_major]

Are you honestly suggesting that entire crews travel back and forth from Waddo to kinloss to practice their skills in the Sim, including all the OCU crews every week? Dosn't sound very realistic to me. Anyway you now have Kinloss remaining open, so defeats the object.

The FAF do this with their E-3F crews to Waddington.

[Green Flash]

Wouldn't surprise me if things went a bit purple-ish at ISK. Flog off Fort George, Cameron Barracks and the big TA place in Elgin and put all the squaddies into Kinloss. Might make for some epic battles in the Naafi bar!!!

[grobace]

I can follow the semantics about when a station might be an airbase, but Rigga's "guete bedeutung!" has gone right over my head. Is it Afrikaans, by any chance?

[Widger]

Mr McLelland,

Whilst your posts often give the impression that you have some form of deeper knowledge about matters light blue, your earlier post demonstrates that you are shooting from the hip and have no greater knowledge that others on here who get their information from t'internet. I can say this with some justification as the comments you have made about one particular base are just plain wrong.

Anyway, it is never good to lose an airfield, once it is gone, it has gone forever, just like wharves. Pprune seems to have descended into a vast feeding frenzy of speculation about SDR before and after. Without doubt, there are some difficult choices, one of which is if the government are going to stump up the cash that they seem to find so readily for failing banks, single parents, long term unemployed etc.

It also seems that in every single thread, the same mud seems to be flung at the HMS Queen Elizabeth Class programme. whilst I admit that the future of F35 is not assured, especially in the light of the USNs recent comments about cost, HMS Queen Elizabeth will be able to operate a vast amount of other platforms. QEC is not inextricably linked to F35. If F35 is shelved, QEC will still go ahead. It is worth taking a look here (http://baesystems.com/AboutUs/UKCarrierBuildGainsMomentum/index.htm) Queen Elizabeth already exists. Millions have been spent already and millions more committed. The steel has been bought and cut, large elements have already been built. Orders have been placed for systems and propulsion, involving the employment of tens of thousands of predominantly UK workers, in many deprived areas. Would you wish them to join the massed ranks and claim even more benefit?

QEC is here, face it, get over it, and save your powder and vitriol for something that really matters rather than allowing a very blinkered view to get in the way of logic.

I am sorry for the thread drift, but CVF was brought into the debate, when the issue was about the closure of airbases. In my personal opinion, there is a whole lot more that could probably be done but, once again, consideration should be made of the effect on the local economy, particularly in Scotland.

[Tim McLelland]

Mr Widger - Thank you for your comments about me. I'm sure we're all suitably informed and grateful.

Grousehunter:-
With your insistance that the hunter fleet be moved to Waddo
I'm not insisting on anything - I'm simply repeating what is being said elsewhere. That's why the public comments from the Station Commander sounded so ludicrous!

[NUFC1892]

Wouldn't surprise me if things went a bit purple-ish at ISK. Flog off Fort George, Cameron Barracks and the big TA place in Elgin and put all the squaddies into Kinloss. Might make for some epic battles in the Naafi bar!!!


Flog off an Army Barracks, good God man what are you thinking! Fort George may be one of the most desolate, God-forsaken places this side of the Falkland Islands but ten RAF Stations will close before our friends in green give it up. Consider how many ex-RAF Stations are now in the hands the Army and how many Army camps have closed since 1990. Off the top of my head the following are now (either mostly or completely) Army, all of which I served at or visited when they had an RAF Ensign at the main gate:

RAF Gutersloh
RAF Bruggen
RAF Rheindahlen
RAF Abingdon
RAF Hereford
RAF Swanton Morley
RAFSU Belize
RAF Innsworth
RAF Chivenor
RAF Brawdy
RAF Stafford
RAF North Luffenham

I am sure there are many others that have gone the same route but I cannot think of one that has gone the other way

[StopStart]

It is worth taking a look here Queen Elizabeth already exists. Millions have been spent already and millions more committed. The steel has been bought and cut, large elements have already been built. Orders have been placed for systems and propulsion, involving the employment of tens of thousands of predominantly UK workers, in many deprived areas.

And the A400M is flying, with many more millions already spent. Let's see if that survives.... :(

[Red Line Entry]

Widger,

Without reopening the whole CVF debate, it is most definitely not 'here'. Why do you thing the First Sea Lord has been making such a spirited defence of it? For better or ill, SDR is a huge threat to CVF's future.

[Diablo Rouge]

I am sure that ISK could become the UK plc version of Fairford. Tumbleweedtastic on care and maintenance rekindled (short term) when NATO have got better things to do then play in the Far East. I believe that the RAF hangar at Stornoway was held in similar circumstances; not sure if it still is though.

[theboywide]

They may have cut steel but they can still sell it on to India :ugh:

[chopper2004]

Think someone suggested if flying training be reduced, re arranged that basic and fast jet goes to NFTC, freeing up Valley and Linton On Water

And how about all rotary wing goes out to combo of US Army Aviation Center at Ft Rucker and Navy's HT-18 at Whiting Field.

Multi engine goes to NAS Corpus Christi

Or go back previously to Canada and to Allied Wings for rotary wing and multi engine training at Southport.

[Tim McLelland]

The talk that I hear seems pretty clear that if/when Linton closes, the assets will go to Valley. Make of that what you will.

As for the carriers and the F-35, it's like I said before... if you can have Michael Portillo (a hugely experienced former Conservative Defence Minister) and Dianne Abbot (left-winger MP with a finger firmly on the "Real labour" pulse) both sat side by side, saying that the carriers are patently unaffordable and will have to go... I think you can make your own conclusions.

[touchpaper]

More stations that the Army took over -
RAF Upavon
RAF Netheravon
RAF Wattisham
RAF Middle wallop
RAF Andover
RAF Abingdon
RAF Bicester (part of)
RAF Colerne
RAF Hullavington
RAF South Cerney

Some that have closed / closing -
Moenchengladback
Dusseldorf
Kalkar
Rheindahlen & Bruggen I'm led to be are being closed

All to name but a few

[airborne_artist]

Michael Portillo (a hugely experienced former Conservative Defence Minister)

Was Def Sec for under two years, before which he was Employment Sec (one year) and Chief Sec to Treasury (two years).

Experienced, yes, but not hugely.

Portillo and Abbot are agreeing on what is very evident - we are spending far more than we can afford, and even if we cut defence spending to zero (ie stop paying all Armed Forces uniformed and civ employees, and stopped buying anything for Defence) we'd still be spending more than taxation is raising.

[Roadster280]

JHQ Rheindahlen was HQ BAOR. Never was "just" an RAF Station.

MG - Although it was a Luftwaffe airfield, I think the A61 put paid to that. It's been Ayrshire Barracks for a VERY long time.

Same deal at Duss, and the non-BFPO part of that closed a good 10-15 years ago. It was 20 Electronic Wksps REME in the early 90s. Did it have a prior RAF incarnation?

At least 10 of the stations in the list were built in the 30's expansion period. Perhaps that is the problem. All of the 30s stations will age at similar rates, and they fall into disrepair quickly. There were also far too many of them by modern (jet) standards. Would you build Scampton and Waddington so close today? or Bentwaters & Woodbridge? Maybe that's why Woodbridge was redeveloped and Bentwaters hasn't been. However, many of the Army barracks that were swapped for redundant RAF stations were built in the 1800s. There's plenty others that the Army didn't take, but the RAF gave up:

RAF Little Rissington
RAF Manby
RAF Coltishall
RAF Kemble
RAF Lindholme
RAF Finningley
RAF St Mawgan
RAF Greenham Common
RAF Bentwaters
RAF Upper Heyford
RAF Alconbury
RAF Upwood
RAF Sealand
RAF Watton
RAF Manston

A couple that didn't make the list earlier:

RAF Oakington
RAF Waterbeach
RAF Driffield (kind of!)
RAF Leconfield
RAF Tern Hill

I can think of one going the other way, there was an RAF SU in Krefeld that set up in Bradbury Barracks.

[oldspook]

Of course one base going the other way - or rather back into RAF hands - is Kirton-in-Lindsey. With grass runway and all!

[Seaking93]

Just a small point but Chivenor was not taken over by the Army, thats why its now called RMB Chivenor

[woodring]

I beg to differ with rigga.

I arrived at Brize in early 67 The Base hanger was always refered to by that name and always occupied by Base servicing Squadron until at least when I left in late 69.

[nav attacking]

I had heard that one of the good reasons for getting rid of harrier early was to force the RNto lose all of its fast jet pilots giveng them a real headache when it comes to manning whatever aircraft they end up putting on HMS QE, if and when they get it...

Stir Stir

[Widger]

Nibble Nibble!

[Melchett01]

As much as I think the Harrier is a cracking capability, and as such any thought of simply chopping it to save a few quid to pay for Brown's mistakes infuriates me, nav attacking may have a point.

If the RAF were to 'give in' to the RN and simply hand over the Harrier, that would effectively mean handing over around half of our fixed wing attack capability. It wouldn't take a great leap of imagination to see the Army and RN getting together at that point to put the case forward that the RAF were therefore surplus to requirements and as such its functions could quite easily be subsumed into the other Services.

Going to be a tricky few months ahead. I hope the Air Force Board have their wits about them!

[SirToppamHat]

Lest we forget, Portillo was the kn0b who, as SOS Def, sold off the MQ/FQ estate at way less than what it was worth so as to free up capital to spend on doing-up the houses (hahahahahahahahahah - anyone seen the latest Private Eye?).

Abbott has even less regard for us than Broon. It's quite galling the way she has changed herself over the years in a desperate (even by nu labour standards) attempt to climb the greasy pole into the Cabinet.

I have no time for either of them.

As for the current MOD senior staffs, it seems to me that there is very little actual management going on as we lurch from one savings measure to the next, hardly daring to look any further than the next few weeks or the next email demanding yet more savings.

Still, on the positive side, I understand IIP is back!

STH

[Squirrel 41]

STH,

Savings, savings and more savings? Yes, it's a bit like that isn't it.... :hmm:

I found the chart in the NAO Report (Ministry of Defence: Major Projects Report 2009 (http://www.nao.org.uk/publications/0910/mod_major_projects_report_2009.aspx)). Figure 11, and a corrected version is on page 3.

The gap is massive, and then you realise that the line against which it is massive is "flat cash" - ie, same pounds this year and last, and the same again next etc etc. Which whilst it is a real terms cut (by the rate of inflation) is going to look like manna from heaven if the cuts come in at the 16% that all the political parties are talking about.

So, what chance of binning the savings culture and having a proper strategic look at (i) what we want and (ii) what the country is prepared* to afford.

*This is the political question. The country could probably afford to spend quite a lot more on the military if it chose to, but no-one's going to vote for that, so unsurprisingly, no-one is proposing it!

S41

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

;)

There was a Base Hangar at Lyneham in the 1960s.

It was occupied by Base Servicing Servicing for the Britannia.

[dragon166]

The term "Base Hangar" has nothing to do with any "Americanisation" of terms. The name relates to the old Transport Command system of servicing depths. In those days we did Base 1, Base 2 and Base 3 servicings, what todays youngsters would call Primaries, Minors and Majors. It is simply that the name has stuck.

[Ivan Rogov]

Waddington got very quiet for a few years in the 80's. For those who have written Kinloss off already, here are a few points to consider:

- It is available 24/7/365 and it benefits from excellent flying weather, loosing far less days than bases further south.

- It hosts 4 major exercises a year, 2 x TLT (mostly fast jets and some helos, AT, AAR, AEW, ISR etc.), 2 X Joint Warrior (lots of MPA plus TLT type visitors). It is ideally located for this due to the ranges, airspace and proximity of Naval and Land units. It also hosts plenty of Tutor, Tucano and C130 dets.

- It benefits from being co-located with Lossiemouth, able to share ATC facilities, sections (Regt and Med sections have been particularly helpful), equipment, supplies, personnel, clubs/organisations, quarters, etc. This provides large financial, operational advantages and convenience over isolated Stations.

- It is home to the ARCC and MRT. A few years ago rumour was that 202 Sqn were coming over and getting a new building, allegedly Lossie Stn Cdr wanted to keep them as he didn't want the base to loose such a high profile role. From what I remember Tornado was also supposed to be moving from Lossie in 2015ish to allow JSF in.

- It has a low surrounding population (less complaints, less compensation claims, less prying eyes/lenses and less risk should the worst happen), very quiet airspace and a vast array of training environments for most A/C types.

- It is ideally situated for any Ops task in/or to the north of the UK, QRA, ASW, ASUW, SAR etc.

Operating our MPA from Waddington isn't as great an idea as it sounds, busy airspace, lost flying days from weather, not near a convenient low level training area with a radar buoy (the North Sea off Lincs is quite busy already too!), 400 miles south of the ideal strategic position to base your MPA for ASW Ops and if anyone hasn't noticed they can't cope with all the personnel in the area already, another 1000 plus families would destroy the infrastructure.
I always thought it would have made financial and operating sense to move 51 Sqn up and co locate Nimrod types, but as most on it see it as an escape from Kinloss I guess it was always strongly resisted, and now it's academic!
I would have thought the location, quiet airspace, low circuit traffic, departure/approach over the sea, access to ranges and danger areas would make it ideal for UAV training too, but again many on those units are terrified of Kinloss too :}.
The previous basing report did highlighted the bird risk for single engine operations, however as TLT/JW successfully operate GR9, Hawk, Etendard, etc. and other Scottish bases have now a bird issue too, so that isn't really valid anymore.

Post Cold War, I thought the RAF plan was to try and group bases together (for logistical reasons, allowing personnel to remain in one area for longer and provide stability for their families: etc. Aren’t the Army doing this too and don’t the RN have TopMast?) and it had decided that hardened buildings are not needed (due to no perceived direct threat, expeditionary Ops, expense and inefficiency). Has this changed?

We don't have enough airfields left to allow politicians to use them for their own gains, our bosses need to fight to ensure they are in the right place for the right reasons.

[Tim McLelland]

Sirtoppamhat perhaps you misunderstood me? I don't think this would be the place to discuss the political abilities of either Portillo or Abbott. It's irrelevant what you or I think of them - my point was that they are both very experienced politicians who generally adopt almost diametrically opposing views on matters of policy. Therefore, when they both conclude that the carriers and F-35 are dead, we can also draw our own conclusions n'est ce pas?

Ivan your comments sound remarkably similar to those which could have been applied to an even bigger (and better-equipped) maritime airfield at the other end of the country - but we all know what happened to that one! I don't think anyone would question Kinloss' value, but it doubtless counts for nothing when the penny-counters look at the hard fact that the base would (if retained) be the home for maybe two, three or four active aircraft. Who is going to allow that kind of nonsensical arrangement to continue for long?

[Ivan Rogov]

Hi Tim, if your referring to St Mawgan I never operated from there. AFAIK it only had one Squadron, I'm pretty sure it wasn't as well equipped (except runway length), had more weather issues, wasn't as strategic for our MPA tasks, wasn't co-located with all the advantages listed, but it's gone now anyway.
WRT aircraft numbers we are still planning on 9 MRA4, but I understand what you are getting at and agree, however I think the solution is to base more aircraft at Kinloss to make best use of it's advantages, eg: if the GR4 force loose a couple more Sqns why not move Marham to Kinloss and have all your Tornados co-located with huge savings and benefits to staff. Or move Typhoon from Leuchars to provide Northern QRA from a better position utilising the runway which is open all the time, and free up St Andrews airport for the civies. The base isn't as quiet as you think, I don't think there is another base available now to do all of this -

"It hosts 4 major exercises a year, 2 x TLT (mostly fast jets and some helos, AT, AAR, AEW, ISR etc.), 2 X Joint Warrior (lots of MPA plus TLT type visitors). It is ideally located for this due to the ranges, airspace and proximity of Naval and Land units. It also hosts plenty of Tutor, Tucano and C130 dets."

[althenick]

[As much as I think the Harrier is a cracking capability, and as such any thought of simply chopping it to save a few quid to pay for Brown's mistakes infuriates me, nav attacking may have a point.

If the RAF were to 'give in' to the RN and simply hand over the Harrier, that would effectively mean handing over around half of our fixed wing attack capability. It wouldn't take a great leap of imagination to see the Army and RN getting together at that point to put the case forward that the RAF were therefore surplus to requirements and as such its functions could quite easily be subsumed into the other Services.

Going to be a tricky few months ahead. I hope the Air Force Board have their wits about them!

But wouldn't axing Harrier also get rid of 1/2 of the attack capability and hence the result would be the same?

Whatever way you look at it there are very dark times ahead for Defence. I hope whichever Party gets in next. takes a look at (a) The management-rich organisation of all 3 services & MoD (b) Consolidating defence estate - especially in London. and (c) takes a look at the equipment in service and in the pipeline and see if there are any other roles that they could take on.

[Fortissimo]

Another for the list of stations now in Army hands:

RAF Bassingbourn

[Easy Street]

if the GR4 force loose a couple more Sqns why not move Marham to Kinloss and have all your Tornados co-located with huge savings and benefits to staff.

If the GR4 force lose a couple more sqns then a far better co-location option would be to put them all at Marham. There is easily enough ramp space for 2 more sqns, complete with Rubb shelters (formerly occupied by 9 and 31 sqns before they joined 2 and 13 on the HAS sites). The BAE depth maintenance facility is there. Marham is also far better placed than Lossie for servicing Close Air Support trg, of which a large proportion is carried out in Wales and the southwest - and this is the primary operational role at the moment. Kinloss' runway is on the short side for peacetime GR4 ops and contrary to previous comments the goose hazard is a very significant issue - it's acceptable on exercises purely because exercises are short-term, it would be a different matter to operate there permanently.

The main things Lossie / Kinloss have got going for them are immediate access to rugged low-flying terrain and the HRA, neither of which are enough to swing it in my opinion. The weather factor argument could go round and round forever, I've lost just as many flying days at Lossie to the 'har' or gale-force winds as I've lost to the East Anglian clag...

Of course politics will interfere so all this is academic.

[philrigger]

;)

Close Air Support trg, of which a large proportion is carried out in Wales and the southwest

St Athan has lots of space now. That would be a great location.

[Tim McLelland]

Actually St.Mawgan was very well-equipped. Apart from the huge runway and a strategic position (the nearest major airfield of comparable size is now Brize), the base boasted a very healthy collection of dispersals (including four which were widened for QRA V-Bombers), a standard apron plus a huge second apron, a monstrous Nimrod (formerly Shackleton) servicing hangar, a HAS complex, a nuclear weapons compound, an entire (disused) secondary airfield attached to it, an airport, and proximity to reserved airspace. At one stage it hosted two Nimrod units and a Canberra squadron plus numerous deployments and exercises. But it was abandoned. So on that basis, I don't think any air base could be regarded as "special case" in some way.

Clearly, the current appetite for cuts is based purely on cost and has little or nothing to do with operational needs or common sense. This is why Kinloss will doubtless be a victim. Likewise, it seems quite likely that the Harriers and Wittering will also get the chop. I don't think the process will end until the Navy is a helicopter-only force and the RAF's combat aircraft fleet comprises exclusively of Typhoons. I really do think that this will be the ultimate result of this process.

[Pete268]

Having driven down a bit of the A1 this morning, another couple of former RAF places the brown jobs have now got:

RAF Catterick
RAF Disforth

Local rumour has it RAF Leeming could eventually go brown as well.

Mind you, yet another local rumour is that the current hospital in Northallerton (the Friarage) is in danger of being divested by its bigger partner the James Cook in Middlesbrough, leaving an empty mid sized hospital going begging. Now, keeping the Hospital at Birmingham going for the aeromeds and VSI's, it could be that the MOD shut down all the various MDHU's and transfer all to the Friarage - lo and behold a military hospital with no start up costs. With Catterick Garrison on its doorstep, being just off the A1 and on the main East Coast rail line, not too bad a location. Perhaps its local MP being William Hague may have something to do with the rumour (there again pigs might fly).

Pete

[shettie]

Cottesmore is not to close - it will be used "For other military purposes" - I'd like to see the balance sheet for the "closure" then...

[RileyDove]

Cottesmore will very likely become a base for units returning from Germany. It has to be ideal due to road links and a wealth of buildings that suit the role.
As for Wittering -twenty years ago people were talking about it closing -isn't going to happen as the costs involved in closing the airfield would far outweigh any benefits. As for the Harrier - a smaller force has already been planned -cutting the aircraft now would make no practical sense as the carriers will need some fixed wing aircraft with JSF looking increasingly expensive against the potential for UAV's in ten years time.

[Ivan Rogov]

Hi Tim, I still don't think you have swayed my opinion on St Mawgan. The HAS complex is no use to MPA and they are a legacy tactic for the RAF and inefficient (especially when they are on the wrong side of the country) and we don't need nuclear storage. It's location was it's downfall, one of it's main reasons for existing was as the US airbridge for WWIII and that went with the cold war, another was as an MPA base and the RAF made it's choice for good reasons. Kinloss doesn’t need a monstrous hanger, it has 8 or 9 already and loads of pan space, it has reserved airspace too and not just a secondary airfield but a fully operational one next door.
I totally agree there should be no special cases, just objective decision based on the fact and not personal preferences. I actually have more personnel reasons for wanting MRA4 to go to Waddington but I don't think it's the correct decision for the MRA4 or the RAF.

Easy, I'm sorry to hear you struggle with 7500ft at sea level, that can't be fun. So how do the Lossie Sqns manage to train for CAS if they are so badly placed? I think that's a pretty short sighted reason for choosing the location of an airbase for the next 20 years or more. I would have thought that at some point soon operating fast jets in the south east with airspace getting tighter, real estate in demand and the NIMBYs will become undesirable, hopefully we are looking far enough ahead to cover these issues too. I can't vouch for Lossiemouths' flying days lost due to weather from it's 2 runways, at Kinloss it is single figures and we often struggle to find another UK military base to use as a diversion in the winter (all being relatively close together and affected by the same weather conditions within an hour or two). As for the geese, yes they are a hazard and we have good procedures to mitigate against them, but the more regular flying you do the better as they modify their flight paths, at the moment with erratic occasional aircraft they don't learn (well, a few did the hard way!).
Unfortunately you’re almost certainly right about the politics clouding any rational decisions.

[dkh51250]

Pete, The Duchess of Kents Hospital still stands, slap bang in the middle of Catterick Garrison. Relocate to that and cut out that tortuous 17 mile journey each way with the associated travel costs.

BTW RAF Thorney Island appears to have slipped through the net here, and has Colerne been mentioned?

[SirToppamHat]

Tim McLelland
Sirtoppamhat perhaps you misunderstood me? I don't think this would be the place to discuss the political abilities of either Portillo or Abbott. It's irrelevant what you or I think of them - my point was that they are both very experienced politicians who generally adopt almost diametrically opposing views on matters of policy. Therefore, when they both conclude that the carriers and F-35 are dead, we can also draw our own conclusions n'est ce pas?


No I didn't misunderstand the point you made at all. I think it is interesting that they have found something they agree on, but that doesn't make it any more valid a position in itself. The fact that these people are both 'professional politicians', if anything, reduces the force of their arguments.

STH

[Pete268]

Pete, The Duchess of Kents Hospital still stands, slap bang in the middle of Catterick Garrison. Relocate to that and cut out that tortuous 17 mile journey each way with the associated travel costs.

True,

However if the rumour has any basis, no doubt politics will come into play, plus according to one of the senior 'brown job' medico's at the MDHU Friarage, the investment required to fetch DKMH back upto modern standards would be huge (not what the bean counters would want to hear in these times).

Mind you, would there be enough people left in HM Forces to warrant having a hospital at all nowadays?. I'm thinking back to the days when just the RAF had Ely, Nocton Hall, Wroughton, Halton etc let alone the brown jobs and dark blues hospitals.

Pete

[Guzlin Adnams]

Did they get it wrong a few years ago? Should Honington have been retained for Gr4's (Gr1's then) instead of Lossi as it's not that far from Marham. Bit late now, too many buildings, land-rovers etc, no ILS or lighting and who knows it may go pongo before too long as well (it's partly pongo already)
Another solution, move maintenance over to Cottesmore and squadrons to Marham? It will also be interesting to seee where the troops currently stationed in Germany will go. Even if the army reduces in size there will still plenty to re-house.

[Easy Street]

So how do the Lossie Sqns manage to train for CAS if they are so badly placed?

They do stuff at Spadeadam and along the Scottish border, which you can also do from Marham or Cottesmore. Otherwise the FACs travel into the highlands and take up residence somewhere suitable for the Lossie sqns, putting them out of reach of southern-based CAS assets.

I would have thought that at some point soon operating fast jets in the south east with airspace getting tighter

The local flying areas of Marham, Coningsby, Cottesmore and Lakenheath are indeed congested and bordered by controlled airspace. However, the point is that all these bases are within easy reach of Devon & Cornwall, Salisbury Plain, Wales, the MDAs, the Lakes, Northumberland, and all of southern Scotland. Therefore there is plenty of flexibility to go wherever the weather is suitable, and you can also go to the land forces wherever they happen to be training.

I can't vouch for Lossiemouths' flying days lost due to weather from it's 2 runways, at Kinloss it is single figures

The problem is the parachute wind limit. The common stat about how Lossie and Kinloss are "Blue" more often than anywhere else doesn't tell the whole story - they can be "Blue" and gusting 50kts, they're still weathered out as far as FJ ops are concerned. Even if the airfields are OK, the winds over the mountains can easily go out of peacetime limits, and this curtails overland training. Such occurrences are much rarer down south.

As for the geese, yes they are a hazard and we have good procedures to mitigate against them, but the more regular flying you do the better as they modify their flight paths, at the moment with erratic occasional aircraft they don't learn (well, a few did the hard way!).

Sounds like your score is Nimrod 3? - Geese 0. Unfortunately in recent history our score is Tornado 1 - Geese 1 and I'm sure nobody wants to try to regain the lead!