The dumbing down of our profession

[Hoggtart]

It saddens me to see young cadets that just a year ago held one stripe, they got a rating and bingo two stripes, they fly the aeroplane for five minutes and hey presto they have three stripes. Jesus H Christ, when I became an aviator I had to bust my ass to gain any fuc:}ing stripes, they were not just handed out you had to earn them. With BA you became a commander in waiting,even low cost operators in Europe don't make it easy. I congradulated one young lad in the crew room and I said he would be after the fourth stripe next his reply "inshalla". My current regime is under the GCAA, it won't suprise me to see these local hot shots in the left seat in a years time, some dispensation is bound to be granted so that with say 1500hrs they can have the fourth stripe!
Not being funny or bitter but what happened to a thing called 'experience', is our job so ****:ouch:ing easy a guy who can barely shave or wipe his arse can do it. No wonder we get treated like crap and the money is getting worse and worse.:*

[Panama Jack]

The entire stripe thing, IMHO, is silly. If a guy is in the right seat, give him 3 bars. If he is in the left seat, give him 4. Pilots otherwise get confused as cabin crew, bus drivers, hotel bell boys or sky caps with one or two bars by the general public who may not be familiar with the British system.

That or start giving Captains 4 bars, 5 bars, bars with stars, moons, diamonds, hearts, clubs, spades, horseshoes or clovers . . . or big fat "Peruvian Admiral" bars depending on their status as "Captain", "Senior Captain", "Fleet Captain", etc.

http://www.achart.ca/publications/images/amin_dada_lg.jpg

(He's our airline's A380 Fleet Chief Pilot)

[Hoggtart]

you are just proving my point, any one will fly and experience and intelligence be damned, and by the way its not just the British system. This is why pilots are not professionals on the socio-ethnic scale. Unlike Doctors, Lawers and other true professionals.
Idi Amin is in quite poor taste.

[PtP]

Whilst I agree your, argument is flawed... we are not the equivalent of lawyers doctors etc etc... they are true professions.. you and I have a licence!

[Wings Of Fury]

And to say that when they have 1500hrs they can have the fourth stripe is not a joke, it has happened before to nationalize an airline, but in this case it didn't work...

[Pitch Up Authority]

PtP

If pilots would make half of the serious mistakes that doctors make the story would be very different.

Research has revealed that the average IQ of pilots used to be 130. Reference "Human Factors in Aviation"

There is no public reporting on the number of lives screwed up by doctors. The trust we have in them is unjustified.

Medical Terrorism (http://tuberose.com/Medical_Terrorism.html) and there is much more.

Doctors do not accept any critic, generally speaking this attitude does not belong in a cockpit and are unfit to hold a pilot license.

[jetopa]

Research has revealed that the average IQ of pilots used to be 130.

That high? Wow.

[Togalk]

There is such a thing as "consequence of error". That means if a doctor screw's up, one person dies, HR screws up, i don't get me dental bill paid, a F/A screws up, i get the chicken instead of beef, I screw up, 300 people die! That's why we are compensated more, and also why management HATE us. Besides Engineers, ours is the only job they cant just throw someone into with a couple weeks training. And, that's why they will ALWAYS hate us.

[Pitch Up Authority]

TogaIk

You are wrong. You screw up, you die. Never mind the passengers.

This is the only correct mindset possible and puts CRM in its right context.

[Semaphore Sam]

The entire stripe thing, IMHO, is silly. If a guy is in the right seat, give him 3 bars. If he is in the left seat, give him 4. Pilots otherwise get confused as cabin crew, bus drivers, hotel bell boys or sky caps with one or two bars by the general public who may not be familiar with the British system.

That or start giving Captains 4 bars, 5 bars, bars with stars, moons, diamonds, hearts, clubs, spades, horseshoes or clovers . . . or big fat "Peruvian Admiral" bars depending on their status as "Captain", "Senior Captain", "Fleet Captain", etc.



(He's our airline's A380 Fleet Chief Pilot)

I was waiting at the old Helmsley Hotel on 42nd St., standing by for the crew bus out to Kennedy. A lady: 'Boy, would you take my bags, please?' Well, I had 4 stripes, and wings, and said "Of course, madame". Since I was the first to show, and we had 22 crew, I had plenty of time. Took the bags for her, to the front desk, and then to the room...refused the tip, which I think disconcerted her. I wonder if Amin ever had that experience at his hotel in Jeddah. I think Captains should have 7 stripes, and F/O's 9. Sam

[fluffy5]

I agree out here, eberyone likes to wear thier bars, even the kitchen boy.
From having to do with the training of the local EY cadets, they think its great to have bars.
IQ, CRM. MCC. these are lovely words that hold such demand out here.
All you have to do is ask these guys a simple met or nav cpl question and they will not know, that if they have icao level 4 english.....
you get an extra bar if you get level 5 out here.
Out here both ey and ek the young cadets are fitted with what I call a 24hr circuit breaker, every morning it resets.....:}
Oh ! if you can retain information to the 25th hour, there's another bar in it for you.
fluffy

[sec 3]

Everybody and his dog have four stripes at the airport in Abu Dhabi. Pretty soon the baggage porters will have them. Then the cadets will really be confused. Baggage porters,cadets, they all look the same. At least the baggage porters serve a purpose:}

[saywhat]

Research has revealed that the average IQ of pilots used to be 130. Reference "Human Factors in Aviation"


Yeah right. People with a 130 IQ willingly sit in an aluminum tube and dribble spit over themselves all night, so that they can sit in a hotel at some airport for 24 hours.....Sounds very clever to me!

[ewr]

PtP, doctors and lawyers are also licensed professionals. Licensing is how governing bodies determine who is competent to practice. The difference is that pilots' licenses are under scrutiny every 6 months where most professions only require continuing education to keep their qualifications.

As far as dumbing down, I'll agree although I don't know when it started. First, and not to brag only inform, I am a mensa member and I am a piot. My best is also a mensa member and a pilot. We have discussed this several times and were both initially disappointed when we began our flying careers. I don't know what I expected but I assumed (incorrectly) that at the airline level I would find individuals in the upper percentiles of intelligence. While that is somewhat true, there's still a large bell curve.

Saywhat mentioned the lack of stimulus in the job and that is definitely true but I don't think that only applies to intelligent people. I think long haul flying would be boring for anyone. At this level, it isn't the job but rather the lifestyle that is appealing. The time off affords you the opportunity to explore other interests like sports, music, languages, or other skills that require more time to learn that a 9 to 5 job would allow. Plus, you get to see the world and get paid to do it.

Regardless of the airline, management will try to screw us and succeed at almost every opportunity where I work. I'm pi$$ed off and frustrated like everyone else here, but I would still rather do this than sit in a cubicle even if it means dealing with a few idiots on the line and in the office.

[Panama Jack]

Idi Amin is in quite poor taste.

Is this one better Hoggtart?

http://www.bild.de/BILD/politik/fotos/2009/juni/2009-06-11-gaddafi/gaddafi-12512755-mfbh,templateId=renderScaled,property=Bild,height=349.jpg

Remember, the idea is to be impressed by the wings and gold braid, right? :ok:

I must admit though that I was quite impressed by watching Etihad pilots cruising the grounds of last-year's Dubai Airshow, resplendent in their uniforms, single-bar on the sleeve, jacket (even though it was hot outside), peak cap, Rayban glasses and peachfuzz moustaches. Why they were not allowed to dress as normal people (civilian) reflects poorly on their employer, IMHO.

[Willie Everlearn]

The Inexperience Sunami will soon hit an airline near you. Maybe the one you're presently working for. Maybe not. One thing's for sure and certain. The number of stripes, their colour and who wears them will be meaningless. Get used to low time in the RHS with lower hours and class of licence. Focus on YOUR survival and plan to deal with it when it gets here.
Working in the M.E., I'm surprised you haven't learnt the cultural pecking order by now. Believe me, inshallah has very little to do with your greatest fear when it comes to who ends up in the fasttrack. Right? More to do with a refined sense of entitlement methinks. :eek:

Not news. Just reality.

[Wiley]

I think long haul flying would be boring for anyoneBoring in any airliner, be it long haul or short haul, beats the hell out of the alternative, and professional aviators usually put some considerable work into keeping it as 'boring' as possible.

[ey166]

GOD save us!!!! guys we depend our lives on you....we mean the cabin crew (lolz)....and it worries me to see the peeps who were in high school just over a year or so back is now having those so called 3 stripes!!! hmmm more reasons to hate the 320s these days;)

[ewr]

Wiley, that is my point. However, it doesn't seem like considerable work to make a flight safe and boring. Obviously we aren't out there flying aerobatics, but my point is that it doesn't matter how smart someone is, it's just boring flying to Australia not talking to anyone (cpdlc) and doing fuel checks every half hour.

Flying today is far from rocket science and the level of automation allows for less skilled and intellectually adept pilots. So then what do you get? Captains with lots of responsibility who lack the intellect and social skills to manage a modern aircraft and large crew. You get guys who are more concerned with company policy than flight safety. You get followers and not leaders. Most captains are not the great men of aviation's past. There are a few, and I love flying with those guys, but they are more the exception than the rule.

p.s. before I get the predicted response from someone, I was a captain for 8 years at my previous airline.

[Hoggtart]

So do they, its called a diploma and is issued by a University. My Father has one, my brother also, as to lawers they are also licensed to practice law once again issued by a university and supported by the state or country that they practice.That is the signifigant difference. With Doctors it takes years of gaining experience before they become consultants or specialists. Unlike the way our industry is becoming.:ok:

[DoctorEcam]

Dear all

i read with great interest this thread and i have some good questions for you!

Many of you are what i use to call butcher pilots..yes butcher...you measure the knowledge and thickness of your colleagues according to their flight time.How many hours have you got 6000?Yes you are the man!what 1500?Damn i will have to be very careful.No matter if 6000 hours have been flown on a c152 or as crop duster..or on a turboprop...total is important.
I have flown and unfortunately sometimes i am still flying with people who have thousands of hours and don't even know how to fly a vor approach or how to start it when there's more than 30 deg of diff btwn your track and the outbound track:eek: or even hoew to calculate how many miles per minute is the aircr.flying:eek:
i am flying with people that blame the Comp.flight plan because of the wrong calculation of fuel planning when they have just flown 10-15 nm on a levelled flight:Eon initial appr config.
In Europe there were many airlines having flight academies.In those places with 250hrs between single eng piston and twin turboprop you was then put on a 320,737,or md80.o fcourse with experienced Captains.Many of these dangerous guys(according to your opinion)are now Captains!
I know many people like you!The worst are the one who became Captain on small turboprops in their countries(10 pax maybe)who pretend to jump on jet as pic(emirates will never allow you to do that!Ask yourselves why).The important thing is your training background not how many hours you have.I know that in some part of the world the greater is the amount of flying hours the better is the pilot:eek:unfortunately your buddies with their thousands of hours were not so good here.
So please hoggtart or whatever tell me where you come from and i will see if i guessed correctely about your nationality and discrimination.
And remember that a good pilot can fly with everyone not only with the best and more experienced:E

[Hoggtart]

I am sorry you have had a bad experience with the medical profession, from your comments it sounds like it was serious. Coming from a long line of Medical professionals I am sorry for you. Doctors/Nurses are the most compassionate people on earth, they work long hours for not a lot of pay, unless they are very senior. If planes stopped flying today the world would keep turning but I can assure you there will always be a need for the caring profession with the high standards and experience that they give to the world. I don't see pilots in Haiti me thinks Drs, Nurses and people with a skill.:ok:

[Hoggtart]

If you wish to know I am from Europe. I have flown single crew transatlantic with pistons both twin's and single's, I have flown Turbo Props (3 types) and Jets (3 types) I have over 8000 hours and have flown every corner of the planet, be it single crew and Multicrew. I am 16 years into this industry and have lived in countries all over the world.
I suggest you re-read my string as I have not descriminated I merely made an observation. With my experience I feel well qualified to make my observation, without the need to get excited and make an emotional response.:cool:

[Pitch Up Authority]

One needs only to look at the PPRUNE tech Forum to find out that there is something wrong with the pilot licensing system.

But make no mistake there are some very good people on the market.

Flying can be a passion for everyone. Being a doctor or a lawyer implies that you are confronted with misery every day, I prefer to fly long haul planes and am still after 25 years enjoying the job.

Just ook at the navigation technology that we have at our disposal. If you really want to understand how it works there is a sea of information available.

There really is much more than just a few FCOM's that make up our profession.

If you became a pilot for the status then you are in the wrong place.

[kia1]

I am also coming from a long line of people working in the medical field, but my question to you is this one: Have you ever wonder who are able to bring the nice doctors, nurses, injured patients in need of surgery, medications, and food, water etc. to any destination from North Poles to South Poles? I will answer that one for you, the nice and efficient pilots of this world! Many thanks to all of them, in their own way, they save more lives than you are able to imagine! So maybe if the world would not have pilots it would still go round, but doctors would only be able to save the lives where they stand.

[S.F.L.Y]

The worst are the one who became Captain on small turboprops in their countries(10 pax maybe)who pretend to jump on jet as pic(emirates will never allow you to do that!Ask yourselves why).It only shows the ignorance of some "professionals", the only difference between a turboprop and a turbofan is the cowling around the prop :8

http://www.popsci.com/files/imagecache/bown_article_image/articles/jet_engine.jpghttp://www.kahn.com/hydraulic/Developments/tp400_small.jpg

[ruserious]

Jeez guys get a grip, who cares about how many people doctors kill or save or what pilots can do, really does it matter. Don't worry about what respect/wages others get, worry about what you are not getting if you must, but build a bridge and get over it, you are in dire danger of taking yourself too seriously

[Coto]

I heard about a guy that, 30's ago, was made captain of a 747 when he was 25 years old.

I spoke with some old captains and they told me that it was quite normal.

What is the difference 30 years ago and nowadays? Maybe your perception of things.....

[BackpackPilot]

Yeah they handle just the same, especially when you want to slow down. And they're the same size too... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[S.F.L.Y]

The size is precisely why they look similar :E The greater the bypass ratio (and the fan) the more efficient is the engine at low speed (tkof) precisely because the fan behaves like a prop (big volume, low speed).

If you don't get arrested at the metal detector you might have an opportunity to see how small is the rear part of your engine compared to the front one...

Now to slow down you'd probably need a gearbox, which is precisely why I choose to put an image of the new P&W1000G :E

[ShinjukuHustler]

So the average I.Q of a pilot used to be 130, any idea what it is now I wonder? I'm guessing the military guys still have super high selection standards and I would guess alot of the legacy carriers such as BA, AF,LH do also. People who already hold tehcnical and science degrees often apply to these companies' cadetship schemes...

A recent post however had a link to some video footage of an interview with some crew in EY ...the average there was well, well, WELL below 130, maybe knock the zero off and it'd be about right.

Hustle On :ok:

[Eng AW139]

When my pervious company was applying for a work visa in the US I notes that Pilot's and Engineers are classed as labors.

Howerver if you are a actor you are classed as a professional making the visa process easier.:ugh:

[NO LAND 3]

He's right you know...

[Hoggtart]

My compliments to S.F.L.Y a pilot with a 'brain cell' great illustration! A picture says a thousand words.:)

[S.F.L.Y]

My compliments to S.F.L.Y a pilot with a 'brain cell' great illustration! A picture says a thousand words.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif

It doesn't help much when the industry isn't really interested in knowledge or experience. All they want to hear is that you are type rated with 200 hours on type (or more) to get the lowest insurance costs. The rest is irrelevant since stalling airliners on short final are considered as heroic landings.

[Pitch Up Authority]

The only thing we can hope is that if ever a plane goes down that some VIP or their offspring is on board.

[Big Footer]

Hey Pitch,
can't belive it :eek:


go pay a shrink a visit , you really need to .

[jamestaylor]

Wow so nice to see some smarts out there. You are so right a turbo prop is a jet ya ya ya. I have been in TP's for over 20 twenty years. And flying a bigger plane is easier no????? My god try to fly a Beechcraft 1900 with heavy cross winds from HTFD to Montreal (with stop over of course).

It is so refreshing to see some of our mates still have much gray matter up top.......................

[Hoggtart]

Thanks Nightfire, you hit the nail on the head and you have totally got the point of the string, its sad but a fact of life in today's aviation.....it does not make it correct...........

[S.F.L.Y]

In the CRJ powerplant introduction manual:

Bypass air -- Air that is ducted around the engine to produce most of the thrust

Just like a good old PT6:ok:

[pool]

Nice piece of dumbing down today (around 0230) out of Dubai:

Lufthansa asked on delivery if, instead of the SID left turn on 12R, they could make a right turn visual over the city, then direct to DARAX ... because of the beatiful view over the Burj!!!
He was serious, 'cause insisted and asking twice ... :ugh:

( I'll ask the same question in Frankfurt the next time I fly out of there ... and will tape the broadcast reactions and publish them here ... )