Airline Pilots help!!!

[smokie78]

As a child when i saw a pilot in an airport i looked at them as gods, or the way kids look at famous people today....the first time i took a flight lesson i knew this is what i want to do. Then i found out how expensive it is to become an airline pilot and i was gutted...because i dont come from a rich family....was this the end of my dream?

Basically i want to become an airline pilot, Im Irish living in Ireland, i dont have €90,000! i dont have a rich family, and im too old for the Irish air corps, Im 32 now in a secure job but "flying" will not leave my head....i cant sleep at night thinking about how i could save up the money and sell my car and stuff...6 years ago i got as far as going solo and money became an issue...i have enough money to do my PPL and a bit more...id say i could have €20,000 but if i spend this what do i do then!! im just so confused on what to do and i think this is my last few years and last chance to realise my dream...i know if i won the lotto its what i would do.... If any captains or pilots with experience of training in Ireland could msg me id be delighted, ideally i would like to meet an airline pilot and pick their brain about training
thanks guys

[Aerouk]

It's crap, keep it as a hobby not a career.

[mad_jock]

take up gliding or microlights.

Its alot cheaper and funny enough its what an awful lot of airliner pilots do for fun on there days off.

There are some right nutters over you way with microlights they seem to have a ball flying them all over europe

[Captain Fishy]

Hey Aerouk! You could be a little less blunt! I do, however, tend to agree. It has, an industry, suffered a long, slow decline over the last 25 to 30 years:{ The Ryanairs and Easy Jets sure have not helped:ugh: Contract work seems to be future for many and this is no way to earn a living. Perhaps Smokie you should try to bcome a captain of industry and not bother with trying to become a captain of an airliner:=

The very best of luck to you with whatever you decide:D

[Aerouk]

Yeah I agree, gliding was some of the best flying I've ever done. Microlighting is also a fantastic type of flying.

[sleepyrascal]

Look up the CTC wings cadet scheme. Your not too old for it... just. One thing though, given you are slightly older than the average CTC applicant, you would have to be super confident and very clued up on all things aviation. Im talking plane types, design, future aviation, role of pilots, aviation law etc etc. Although if you did a solo flight you must have done a fare bit of studying already....

Its probably the best option as far as I'm aware...

I was talking to my instructor today and her friend in Edinburgh (aged 40) did a career change, got his license and has an interview with Ryanair next week. Its not impossible, although you have to be ultra dedicated. Im 27 and basically just starting out and although my instructor (age 26 lol) laughed when I asked if I was a bit on the old side, I know I am really, particularly when I hop out of the cesna with my instructor and hand the keys to a 17 year old kid off flying on his own.

[Dane-Ger]

I personally wouldn't go the CTC route just now, especially at your age. Modular is the way in the current climate. If you want to fly, complete your PPL and fly, take your time and enjoy it. You can then make decisions about your future and how far you want to take your training, one step at a time, at your own pace, as and when you can afford it. The other alternative is, as has been mentioned, microlight or gliding, both fantastic fun.

You are not too old, but you also have to be realistic that some jobs are not going to be there for you. I started as a 17 year old on an RAF flying scholarship and got my PPL. It took me until last year as a 34 year old to complete my CPL and MEIR. The small amount of debt I took out to complete the last part of my MEIR is now paid off because I kept my full time job whilst training (with some unpaid leave).

There is work out there, I have at least three good leads on full time work just now, all through contacts I have made whilst flying. none of them will make me rich and none of them are on big shiny jets. With no debt I don't need a huge wage to repay loan repayments and survive which will let me do what I want to do, fly!

If you go integrated just now you will bound by an expensive contract, finished within a year or so, and most probably unemployed.

good luck
regards
D-G

[ab33t]

I agree keep your job and try and get it all done that way. May take a bit longer but you will get there at the end without debt

[suas]

Hi Smokie

I would say if its something you really want to do go for it. No point living life with regrets. I am just about to finish training, so heres my two cents worth.
Get the ppl finished, either in Ireland or in the US (cheap and quick) contact all the flight schools in ireland, PTC, NFC, Atlantic in Cork but also the flying clubs where it is cheaper to do the ppl, for example Waterford Aeroclub or Kilkenny, good value for Ireland.
next step are the ATPLs which can be done full time in Cork in 6 months for 3700 euro or part time distance learning from many schools.
then 100hrs hour building, again very cheap in Waterford aeroclub, or the US, perhaps for 7 or 8 grand.
Then it gets expensive with CPL and Multi Engine IR and MCC.
Go and speak to your bank manager/credit union.
Speak to as many people involved in aviation as possible, call into the schools and clubs, chat to the instructors and students, even if your at the airport chat to pilots for a minute or two.
Check the flying in ireland magazine and website.
Check the Guild of Air Pilots and navigators website, some good stuff there.

Also, be careful with fancy advertising from schools, remember they are money making businesses, only believe half of what you read on pprune, full of people whinging!!

Friend of mine just got an offer for Ryanair (but he will have to pay for the type rating so there are some jobs there, and it seems to be picking up a little (a little).

So get all your ducks in a row, get on with the PPL (its a great hoby anyway, even if its not a job) and then decide if a career is for you.

Best of luck with it.:ok:

[suas]

By the way Smokie, I reckon I will have completed all from PPL to MCC for 55 to 60 thousand euro, all training in ireland

[jbayfan]

For around €35,000 you can get a full Multi CPL in South Africa, including all your accommodation and meal costs. Then, being mature, you could add on an instructor's rating for another €7,500 and get a job with a flight school in South Africa to build up your hours. They prefer older pilots as instructors because of the maturity factor.

There is no other career to match being an airline pilot. I've been flying for 25 years, currently converting onto the A340 with the B737-200 and -300 and B747-400 under my airline belt and B1900, B200, BE90, BE99, DHC6, DC3, C501, UH1 and R44 prior to starting my airline career. I flew charter, corporate, skydivers, UN, Red Cross, US Army and for a commuter airline prior to my current job.

I started with my current airline at 31 and 12 years later I am about 1 to 2 years away from my first command and have never regretted my career choice.

Good luck and don't give up on your dream!!

[Aerouk]

Captain Fishy,

Well when you've got friends being made redundant, earning jack sh*t with certain airlines, being forced to take £70k worth of debt and sitting in holding pools you can understand the frustration in this "dream job".

If you want to do some real flying get yourself a decent job, buy an aircraft/share and enjoy the flying rather than becoming another O'Leary slave.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

I did the ctc cadet scheme, I've been working for easyjet for the past four years. The ctc scheme is no longer what it was, it has become far more expensive and the job on offer at the end of the course is now a temp contract that earns barely enough to pay back the huge debt you will have racked up (we are talking well in excess of 100k euro).

Honestly get a PPL, enjoy yourself and go no further. Wait and see what sort of an industry emerges over the next 2-3 years.

Do not whatever you do borrow any money to pay for flying training at the moment. And have a read of the Terms and Endearments forum (third from the top on the main forum page). It deals with employment prospects and job opportunities for pilots who already have a licence and some experience but it should open your eyes to the reality of the situation at the moment. It's not great.

Good luck ;)

[redsnail]

a pilot in an airport i looked at them as gods,
Airline pilots are human. Now, I am not an airline pilot, (thank goodness!), I do other fun stuff with my ATPL.

You're 31 so not "too old". However, there are caveats that you must pay attention to.
1. Cost of living while you train.
2. FO salary on a turboprop or flight instructor salary. (plan 4 years)
3. Are you married/relationship/children. Their lifestyle expectations.
4. Can you afford it without jeopardising mortgage/retirement plans?
5. Can you afford to be without work post training? (possibly 1-2 years)
6. Can you stay/return to your old job/profession if required?

I would not go "integrated" at this time. It is very costly and offers you no flexibility with respect to the economy and your budget. In spite of the advertising blurb, it is exactly the same licence.

I would get a PPL. It's not expensive and you'll find out if you like flying or not.
Flying is far beyond the uniform and the flashy braid.

Good luck

[smokie78]

hey thanks for all the replies guys...good and bad its good to hear everything...i will pursue my PPL at least and then see what ill do from there....i just dont understand where people get €90,000 for pilot training!!!? its a shame when you hear that your dream job is slated by those living it...but i understand as im in a job others would class as "something they always wanted to do" and i hate it...well hate is a bit harsh..its alright...defo rather be flying and getting paid for it

[sleepyrascal]

I just started PPL, and every pilot I have spoken to on my journey so far (usually the younger ones) tend to curl up into a little ball when I bluntly ask where they got the money from. It usually transpires that their parents gave them the money or the inherited it etc etc. However there are also some who have clearly worked their butts off for several years to take on the modular route. One chap drove lorries for several years on and off and paid for it that way.

You could always commit 100%, cash in your life and go for it. However, if chaps like AeroUK are to be believed, and I have no reason (so far) to doubt what he(she?) has said, that would be a big big risk.

[suas]

Good Advice from jbayfan,
If he has been doing it for 25 years it must be good, I have met ZERO airline pilots that hate it!
if you really want to do it, you will, much cheaper in US, South Africa, Australia or Spain etc. Check out what you will have to do to convert to JAA (european license) if you want to fly commercially here. there are instructors jobs most of the time and its a great way to fly, but you'll never be rich!!!!
Plenty of reasearch smokie, but do get going with the PPL
Keep the questions coming

[TheBeak]

What about it is your dream? The flying? Then get a PPL. The money? Then think again. The status? Get a life. I am sorry if I sound harsh as I do believe this is your dream for all the right reasons. To earn and learn will give you the protection you need at your age in my opinion and will enable you to fund things a little easier. Think with your head not your heart.

[johnnyDB]

How many answers here come from 'airline pilots' ?

[sleepyrascal]

I suspect not very many...

[Guttn]

Here`s one:ok:

As previously said, get going with your PPL. Good fun flying, which is what flying ideally should be like. Instructing is also fun, for those who enjoy the challenges of teaching, but you won`t get rich. If you can finish your PPL without taking on a loan, that`s great! As you say, a lot of pilots training nowadays have to fork up big amounts just to finish the CPL. Next step is to get a job, or more experience, with about 250 hours total. 250 hours is not a lot! Ready to fork up more cash then? A lot of flightschools will more than encourage you to buy a typerating on a jet, and might help you into a 6 month contract with a lowcost carrier, defined as "line training". BTW, often you`ll have to pay for this as well. and when the 6 months are up, you`re kicked off the apron, because there`s a new "hire" with stars and shiny jets and loads of disillusion in his/her eyes. Can you now estimate the size of the loan? And... you also have to have a roff and some food and clothes and transportation:ugh:. This is Europe anyway. South Africa sounds like a much better idea. I imagine the flying is a lot more fun than just programming an FMS and autopilot. That comes later. Not everyone knows this. There`s a lot of backstabbing, as well as whining. Long periods away from home and very little social life, because your friends know you`re away most of the time, and soon won`t bother calling you up for a pint and such, because they already have figured out the answer. Status is pretty low now, huh? Pay is just slightly higher:yuk:. But it does seem you`re doing some research, and you might also do some research about the T&Cs:}. But all this hardship starts the moment you have completed your CPL and need to start paying your loans.

On the other hand, if you want some status, or at least some people admiring you... you now, the people with whom you socialize? Then get your PPL and take them flying:ok:. Often! Make an annual trip with your mates to somewhere you can fly yourself. Part of the trip is getting folks together and do some planning. Maybe you can even get one of the lads to do a PPL as well? And it`s all about stick and rudder, which at he end of the day is what is really fun about flying:ok::D

As you see, there are at least 2 sides to any situation. Depends on what you make of it:ok:.

Good luck!

[sleepyrascal]

Nice post!

Again however, the negativity pushing through. Im starting to wonder, why does anyone ever get involved with airlines if its as bad as almost everyone on this site makes out..... why hasnt everyone just stopped at PPL?

Maybe all airline pilots are a bit thick? :E:E:ok::ok:

lol.

[Wing_Bound_Vortex]

That's because like most things you don't really understand it untill you do it for a while, say 6 months to a year. Then you realise it's just a job, with plenty of downsides to counter the good stuff. The industry is not what it was, it's changed so much even over the length of time that i've been flying commercially ( 4 years ).

Get a PPL, that's the fun part, enjoy it, build some experience and come back in 2 to 3 years time and see what the state of the industry is then. It's not a good place to be at the mo.

WBV

[smokie78]

thanks lads... this is all good stuff...ill defo do the PPL...even excited thinking about it...ah sure i think nearly every industry is bad to be in at the moment no...

[BitMoreRightRudder]

sleepyrascal

I suspect not very many...

Really? I count 5-6. You suspect not very many because we are being fairly negative, and I suspect we are not telling you what you want to hear.

We could just lie and say it is all a bed of roses but it isn't. And the clear message we are giving you is that right now the job is not worth the initial investment. People I trained with 4 years ago are being made redundant and others more recently out of training are declaring themselves bankrupt. I don't quite know what you would have us say when you bear this in mind.

[smokie78]

hey ace, just wondering what you mean when you say it was their own stupidity....do u mean the modular route is the best way to go?

[sleepyrascal]

When he said "stupidity" I imagine he was referring to those who choose to commit to training which they cannot afford to pay for.

Like overspending on a credit card and not having money to pay for it.

Stupid might not be the right word as unlike many careers, there is often a great deal of passion involved when someone opts to throw themselves into the aviation industry. Perhaps so much so that sense goes out the window.

[8QQHC]

I’m about to start my PPL training and think modular is the best way to approach it too. I don’t want to cram it into 18 months of prescribed learning, even if age isn’t on my side.

I’d rather have a bit of fun on the way and drop it if it’s not right. I’m looking forward to hour building and taking mates up, doing a booze cruise or two to France, flying in Florida when I take the kids to Disney etc etc:

Don’t get me wrong, I’ve wanted to do this all my life. I have a job I despise and always will if I don’t grab the bull by the horns now! But if it all goes tits up I can just stop the training and carry on with my wonderful IT job, and just go on expensive booze cruises.:}

[wire12]

Hi,


I was reading your post and I would like to give you a bit of advice that no body has mentioned. I’m have way through my atpl’s. I agree with some of them saying to get your ppl and then wait.


Do that and when you get your ppl study for your atpl’s while your waiting. From the date you first sit the first exams you have 18 months to finish all 14 exams. When you have all atpl’s done you have 3 years to complete your CPL and IR. That is plenty of time to wait. YOU ONLY LIVE ONCE LAD don’t mind what there saying if this is want you want go for it and don’t look back. It’s worth the risk.

[Wildpilot]

Smoke 78,

No offense to the guys who are telling you to get on with it but most of them are as green as the grass and have no idea what the industry is like as they are but a few hours into it.

Age is not an issue, I trained late and if anything it helped, but the industry is getting worse everyday. If I had my time again I would get a proper job that actually pays well and treats you better and fly for fun.
Some times that dream that you put on a pedestal is best left there, if you do decide you can't live life without trying then best of luck and don't go to a sausage factory school as you will be exactly the same as everyone else.

All the best

[Eau de Boeing]

That's because we're all knackered!

[IrishJetdriver]

There are 3 types of lie. Lies, damned lies and statistics. A flight school would make their stats look good, even when most of their students who got jobs did it off their own backs and also had to pay for a TR.

The only thing I can say is that if you try it you must be able both financially and emotionally prepared to fail to ever get a job. If you can do that then why not try. The market is improving but is still a terrible place to be with a huge debt and no experience.

Tough choice. Good luck.