Night VFR Endorsement - worth it?

[Sherrin123]

Righto - apologies if this is a stupid question (first post and all that...) but here goes....

I've just got my CPL (with NZ CPL night rating) and MEIR over in kiwiland. I've moved over to Australia looking for work. I've spoken to a few operators 'up north' and most that have replied have said i'll need an Australian NVFR endorsement. Unfortunately, the NZ NVFR doesn't convert to Aus and I'm wondering whether forking out an addition c$3k is worth it. After a year training, budgets are tight.

I've got my instrument rating. I've also got 10 hours night flying. What I don't have is the 3hr / 100nm night cross country, and i haven't passed the Australian NFVR flight test.

I'd imagine, if i'm lucky (given the state of play at the moment), the first job i'm gonna get will be for a charter / scenic flight operator. Will there be a requirement to fly at night with this type of operation? and even with the NVFR endorsement you can't take passengers... So will I actually need the NVFR?

So, I put it to you good people, is it worth spending $ on getting this endorsement.......is the NVFR actually something worthwhile?

Cheers

[Hot High Heavy]

Congrats on just gettin the CPL, i am also a recently minted CPL.

I have the Aust NVFR rating but havent really used it (the idea of flying cross country at night in singles doesn't really appeal). It seems strange to be a requirement if you already have a MECIR as i thought that would cover night flying anyway. You are right too that any role you get is prob going to be single dat VFR stuff. Might be worth saving the bucks!:ok:

[zlin77]

If it enables you to get your first job, then it is worth it, I had it 36 years ago!!!! And it was necessary then, otherwise I would not have obtained that first job at 200 hours T.T.......not necessary in a 777 these days, just part of the process.

[SM227]

hmm... one flight of atleast 3hrs or 300Nm night cross country.

Is that night cross country under NVFR or night cross country under IFR? as it doesnt specify, i assume that night IFR nav's as past of the sylabus of a CIR covers the requirments to fly NVFR.

Discuss... :E

[glekichi]

The only reason I would ever get an NVFR rating would be if I wanted to be an instructor and was absolutely sure that I would never ever want to do any flying other than as a VFR instructor.

Otherwise, why would you ever be stuck and unable to do a flight as NVFR when it could be done IFR?

[ab33t]

it has to be NVFR not NIFR

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

I'm wondering whether forking out an addition c$3k is worth it.

$3k for a 3 hr cross country? $1000/hr?

Have you thought about doing it in a C172 rather than a C500?

Dr :8

[Sherrin123]

Yeah, it's working out at $3k for the endorsement - done in a 172

2 x 3hr Dual flights
1 x 2.5hr flight test....

If it means getting the job, great. But as funds are tight, not sure if it's an absolute pre-requisite??

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Any school worth their salt should do the NVFR as a part of the CPL course, rather than waiting till you've completed your hours and charging you as an added qualification.

Understood the original poster came fron Enzed, comments directed at Aussie trainees.

[arnellis]

I managed to get a first job, and I did not obtain nvfr rating, I did however cover the syllabus requirements during cpl training and I did have a MECIR. I was going to do the test, but at $500 just for the testing officer at the time, I decided otherwise.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

MECIR, NVFR, it can all be done before the CPL test. Of course the test has to be charged for, but my point was you might as well do something while building up your 150/200 hours.

Now you just have to keep your CIR current every year to keep your night privileges. Are you actually using your CIR for your first job?

[arnellis]

I dont actually use the rating unfortunatly, not yet anyway, however the extra understanding of IFR ops does not hurt, especially during the wet season up north. I just felt the $500 + aircraft hire was a bit steep for a nvfr test.

[The Green Goblin]

Most operators require it for charter quoting insurance purposes, however if they are short of pilots and pilots are thin on the ground they will bend the requirements to suit.

Also be aware that you will not make the grade in minimum hours so budget more than 3k. The NZ NVFR is a couple of bog laps up and down the coast with the city lights generally in view. The Australian NVFR is basically an Instrument rating without learning approaches. In terms of IF skill and black hole approaches at away aerodromes, the standard is pretty high.

For an ATPL issue, you require 100 hours night command. The only way to get it is to fly at night. You will also need 5 hours command for your instrument rating. I got a fair portion of my night hours on dead leg charters. I would simply wait until last light or depart before first and clock up what I could with the operators permission. (Scary stuff flying around the topend at night in a single)

Bottom line is to get it done and out of the way.

[Stretch06]

and even with the NVFR endorsement you can't take passengers...

What made you think that? You can take passengers whilst flying NVFR.

:ok:Stretch

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Let's keep to the broader picture, shall we?

Let's say you need to ferry an aircraft after EOD (realistically, the only night flying you'll be doing as it's unlikely you're getting a twin job as your first gig). If you're not flying IFR Chtr ops and your employer doesn't pay to keep your CIR current, is it cheaper in the long run to keep your NVFR or your CIR current?

Agreed the CIR does give you an appreciation of IF ops, but so does NVFR. That's why it used to be called a Class 4 Instrument Rating.

As usual, GG is making good sense.:ok:

You can take passengers whilst flying NVFR

Under charter, only if you have a current CIR.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Now guys, here's the kicker for those who anticipate using their CIR to conduct NVFR ops:

CAO 40.2.1 Para 14.1(b)

Charter flights under night V.F.R. procedures, provided the following
aeronautical and recent experience requirements are satisfied:

(i) Aeronautical Experience. The pilot’s aeronautical experience shall
include 10 hours cross-country flight time using night V.F.R.
procedures including a minimum of 2 navigation exercises (of at
least 300 nautical miles or 3 hours duration), as either pilot in
command or in command under supervision. Each exercise shall
exceed a distance of 100 nautical miles from the point of departure
and shall provide at least 1 landing at an aerodrome other than that
of departure, located in an area remote from extensive ground
lighting.

This applies if you do not have a NVFR and effectively means you have to have done even more than is required for the NVFR to use these privileges.

[Wildpilot]

I didn't bother as it is very unlikely to be a requirement for a vfr sep operator. It has not stopped me getting on with my career but its each to there own. I tend to work in Mountain regions so flying at night is suicide anyway.

Good luck in the big hot dusty island.

[Lodown]

What's "scary" or suicidal about night flying in a single if it's done according to the regulations? You've been listening to too many new instructors who want to impress students with their feats of bravery and night flying in a single is about the most exposure to risk that they can imagine at this stage. Granted, there are other considerations to take into account from Day VFR, but night flying (single engine) is safe, and in some ways, more safe than flying during the day.

[tmpffisch]

MakeItHappenCaptain
This applies if you do not have a NVFR and effectively means you have to have done even more than is required for the NVFR to use these privileges.

Failing to remember that NVFR Charter requires a CIR... For AWK and PVT NVFR with a CIR, you just need to meet the NVFR Rating requirements.

[AerocatS2A]

The obvious problem with flying a single at night is that if the noise stops you might not have the visibility to find a good forced landing field.


For an ATPL issue, you require 100 hours night command.
That's not true at all. For an ATPL you require 100 hours of night experience, it doesn't have to be command.

[UnderneathTheRadar]

I can't believe no-one has challenged the $3k budget for the NVFR (the rating). Costs here from Peninsula Aero Club non-member rates.

1. Shop around, try a country aero club or similar who will do the test, accept a bit of risk that there might be some remedial training and try and do the rating as 1 flight test. Might not work and you may need a second dip at it. Cost $250/hr dual or $150/hr plus test fee - 4 hours - $1000

2. Now, to use your NVFR rating for Charter ops - well, you already have it and so either a) hope that your employer may need to to ferry an aircraft at some point and do it NVFR - two flights, problem solved. Or b) with your NVFR rating, 3 hours 152 solo time at say $150/hr - $450.

Cost - min $750 (3 hours dual)/max $1150 - assuming your Enzed night thingy taught you to navigate and land at night and you understand the theory.

UTR

[The Green Goblin]

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Green Goblin
For an ATPL issue, you require 100 hours night command.
That's not true at all. For an ATPL you require 100 hours of night experience, it doesn't have to be command.

It has to be night command/ICUS or COPILOT/2 no Dual.

COPILOT time will take you forever especially if you fly a turboprop doing mine charter which is never at night.

The best option is night command :ok:

[AerocatS2A]

Best option for who? I didn't have anything like 100 hours night command when I got my ATPL. If the requirement really was for command I'd still not have an ATPL because I only started racking up night command hours once I got to regularly be in command of an aircraft at night, this was long after I'd started flying multi-crew.

[The Green Goblin]

As I said fella, you cannot use dual towards an ATPL anymore.

If you want to drive a regional turboprop as a Captain you need an ATPL. To get an ATPL with 100 night hours is quite difficult. Most guys don't get to clock up much copilot time at night as the majority of these operators fly during daylight hours (skippers, network, etc etc) If you get a job without 100 hours night command it will be a loooooong slog as a copilot to get a command with an ATPL.

Of course if you get into an operator like Virgin/Qantas/Jetstar or even Rex and QLink, this would not matter a great deal as you will do plenty of night copilot time.

So as I said the best option is to try and wrangle 100 command hours out in GA departing before/after first light in a singles and twins until you get it.

Obviously you don't get it :ugh:

All those guys with 30 hours night flying turboprops during the day do get it :E

[Tinstaafl]

There can be advantages to being able to operate using NVFR procedures instead of IFR at night:

* LSALT can be calculated differently so sometimes a lower LSALT can be used
* Some aerodromes exclude IFR at night eg Scone used to prohibit IFR at night

There can be disadvantages too:

* Alternate requirements are different. Alternate due no navaid is more limiting using NVFR than using IFR at night.
* The rating - but not the procedures - is only available for PVT & AWK, not CHTR

However, having made the decision that NVFR is appropriate for the flight you then have to be qualified to use NVFR. You can either:

* hold a NVFR rating (duh) if PVT or AWK, or
* hold a CIR + have certain specified night flight experience using NVFR procedures.

An advantage of a NVFR rating is that the rating doesn't lapse so NVFR privileges never lapse. A disadvantage of using a CIR+night VFR experience is that NVFR privileges lapse when the rating lapses. No CIR renewal = no NVFR flights.

There are also recency & currency requirements that must be met for certain operations using NVFR procedures.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

tmpffisch
Failing to remember that NVFR Charter requires a CIR

vs 5 posts earlier

me
Under charter, only if you have a current CIR.

Difference being?:confused:

[tmpffisch]

Yeah, I fail to see what your 'kicker' is. To what I can tell, you need to do the same for what's required for a NVFR rating, not more....

[eocvictim]

I think the kicker comes back to what we were discussing in the other NVFR thread TMPFFISCH. Most NVFR charter with a CIR is ME so you need to do that extra flight to get your MECIR night + SE NVFR crossed over to ME NVFR unless you want to ignore intent as I said.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

To what I can tell, you need to do the same for what's required for a NVFR rating, not more....

NVFR:5 hours dual navigation night flight time including: (i) 2 hours visual instruction by an approved pilot; and (ii) in the case of subparagraph 6.1 (b) — at least 1 cross-country flight in dual flying that satisfies the following requirements: (A) the duration of the flight must be at least 3 hours; (B) the flight must cover at least 100 miles; and

CIR to use NVFR for Charter: minimum of 2 navigation exercises (of at
least 300 nautical miles or 3 hours duration),

That's more.:cool:

Eoc: the S/E NVFR with a ME CIR covers it, but if the CIR lapses, you're back to S/E NVFR only. My query of CASA and an ATO is that you can't get the SE rating "automatically" upgraded. Full test required.

[tmpffisch]

Oh ok, I see what you're on about. When you said This applies if you do not have a NVFR and effectively means you have to have done even more than is required for the NVFR to use these privileges. raised my attention as I thought you were arguing that it was better to have a NVFR Rating.

Eoc: the S/E NVFR with a ME CIR covers it, but if the CIR lapses, you're back to S/E NVFR only. My query of CASA and an ATO is that you can't get the SE rating "automatically" upgraded. Full test required.

Despite the CAAP from CASA saying "a flight test is not required for the removal of the limitation."?

[AerocatS2A]

As I said fella, you cannot use dual towards an ATPL anymore.I wasn't aware that you ever could.
Obviously you don't get it
You're not telling me anything new, but you should be careful to not make false statements. 100 night command is not required for an ATPL. It may be the easiest way for some people to get an ATPL, it wasn't for me. The easiest way for me was to rack up night co-pilot time. I never had a job that provided much single pilot night flying.

I'm making an issue of it because it seems to be a common misconception among some pilots that you need 100 night command for an ATPL.

[Orion Delta]

Aerocat your 100% right. Misleading info is terrible.:ok:

[eocvictim]

While we're making sure what's posted is correct, its only PIC and Co pilot that can be counted.


5.172 Aeronautical experience: minimum requirements
(1) For the purposes of paragraph 5.165 (1) (f), a person’s
aeronautical experience must consist of at least 1,500 hours of
flight time that includes 750 hours as pilot of a registered
aeroplane, or a recognised aeroplane.
(2) The 750 hours must include:
(a) any of the following:

(i) at least 250 hours of flight time as pilot in command;
(ii) at least 500 hours of flight time as pilot acting in
command under supervision;
(iii) at least 250 hours of flight time, consisting of at least
70 hours of flight time as pilot in command and the
balance as pilot acting in command under
supervision; and
(b) at least 200 hours of cross-country flight time; and
(c) at least 75 hours of instrument flight time; and
(d) at least 100 hours of flight time at night as pilot in


command or as co-pilot.

[eocvictim]

Makeithappencaptain, it is worth noting as GG said that most people take a bit more than the mins to meet the standard and as such now have the mins for NVFR charter under the authority of CIR.

[The Green Goblin]

Originally Posted by Green Goblin
As I said fella, you cannot use dual towards an ATPL anymore.
I wasn't aware that you ever could.

Up until a little over 12 months ago dual was fair game towards the hundred total night required for an ATPL.


I'm making an issue of it because it seems to be a common misconception among some pilots that you need 100 night command for an ATPL.

And I'm making an issue of your English comprehension as I never said you 'need' 100 hours for an ATPL, but rather the best way is 100 command i.e not the only way!

[AerocatS2A]

And I'm making an issue of your English comprehension as I never said you 'need' 100 hours for an ATPL, but rather the best way is 100 command i.e not the only way!
Don't try and weasel out of it. Here are your initial words:

For an ATPL issue, you require 100 hours night command.
You only moderated your comment from "required" to "best way" after I pointed out your error. If you didn't know, then admit it. If you did know but used a poor choice of words, then just say so. Don't try and blame it on my reading comprehension.

[The Green Goblin]

I apologize then, however I am well aware of the requirements for an ATPL issue.

We all used to/still count every 0.1 until we make the grade for that next hurdle i.e 500TT, 1000TT 500 ME, 1500TT, 1500 TT, 70IF, 100 Night.....And yes some COPILOT time went towards my 100 night, the majority being ME command and single engine dead leg charters. (back charters were good too :})

[AerocatS2A]

No worries.

[The Green Goblin]

Ahhhh

Now I know what my point was. Try and get 100 night command before you fly something that you need an ATPL but have no way of getting the night hours with minimal pickings from copilot hours. I then was referring to mining charter where it's majority day ops with no night.

I then referred to the guys with 30 hours night flying turboprops above 5700kg getting no night flying with no chance of converting to an ATPL for a command.

:ok:

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Despite the CAAP from CASA saying "a flight test is not required for the removal of the limitation."?

Yep. CAAPs aren't law, just recommendations. I actually phoned CLARC to clarify upgrading both aids and an engine from your CIR to say a SE NVFR with only VOR/ADF for a student. Then again it's not uncommon to get conflicting answers from two different people.:rolleyes:

Go figure?


EOCVic, not disputing this fact at all. Again, any school worth their salt IMHO will be doing this (including the 2 navs) as part of a CPL.

[Tinstaafl]

In the '80s they used to automatically remove a NVFR rating's 'S/E Only restriction' once you gained a M/E CIR. That's what happened to me and to others: Sent in the old book licence & back it came with a brand new CIR and a stamp over the NVFR bit cancelling the S/E only restriction.

[The Green Goblin]

Just a question, would a fresh cpl pilot heading up north for their first season be put at a significant disadvantage by going up without the NVFR rating or CIR?

Yes to the NVFR

No to the CIR, but if you have that and your ATPLs you can fly without having to head back to civilization before you can progress

All the blokes going up have similar hours on similar types at similar flying schools.

The bare minimum you want right now is:

CPL with retrac and CSU (don't laugh, most of the Kiwis had never flown anything bigger than a 152 unless they did a CIR in a P68 in which they won't have a retrac)
NVFR
DG
First Aid
Very Handy - initial Multi.

Attitude is what will get you the job. (and they seem to like small blokes and shielas as it = more payload)

GG