Command in a Regional Airline

[AllInGoodTime]

Sorry if this has been done to death on other threads, but a slightly different question.

I appreciate Qlink have a High Capacity AOC so can get their trainees to get commands hours and REX don't have this.

My question is, to gain command, is it that you need 500 command total, or 500Command IFR ME.

I ask as this as I have Total hours for the Regionals, and have over 500 command hours, but don't have 500 ME.

Cheers

[Mr snuffaluffagus]

G'day AllInGoodTime,

From what I understand, Low Capacity RPT requires the 500 multi for command. For High Capacity RPT you need to meet company minimum requirements and be able to hold an ATPL (the Q-Link trainees and cadets will still struggle to overcome this hurdle if ICUS is not approved by CASA)

Hope that helps

[Orion Delta]

Interesting, I am glad someone brought this up. It should make some good discussion points:). I am also very very keen with what happens with QL:8

[j3pipercub]

So Hypothetically, could a new hire who spent more time out in the big bad world of GA and got the 500 ME, be up for a command before a cadet/trainee who does not meet the requirements, yet who has a higher seniority number??

j3

[ab33t]

Now that would be an interesting one , I would think yes . I dont know if this has happend before but you do qyualify with the hours , there most likely would be some company requirements that have to be met.

[HappyBandit]

J3

highly unlikely....especially if afap has anything to do with it.....besides as it stands new guys need to be with company for at least year and by then many of trainees will have the min requirements. Even if dont introduce icus can lig 150 icus when upgrading for command so the 250 command will be covered.

[j3pipercub]

Fair enough,

I'd be a good Captain, honest, I'd let youse have every 3rd sector...

[Di_Vosh]

J3,

Yes it can happen. It has done so in QL. Seniority (in QL) allocates who amongst the SUITABLY QUALIFIED applicants gets the command.

In Eastern, there are some FO's who've got a higher seniority number than some Captains. It's not a normal situation, but it can happen. The reason for this is that the guys who got the Captains upgrade had the CASA and company min requirements and the more senior guys didn't.

Many of the Trainees had under 400 hours TT when they joined. These guys (i.e. <400TT) wont have 1000 TE yet. In 12 months time they might just have enough hours for their ATPL, and then more time before they reach the company requirements.

So it's entirely possible that some of the high-timers who've joined in the last month or so could become captains when people who've been at the company since mid to late 2008 will still be FO's.

HappyBandit, if you're in EAA, you may want to re-read the EBA. Clause 57.10 has the details you're looking for. I don't have the Sunnies EBA handy, but I'd imagine there is a similar clause there. Also, you may want to look at the C&T manual to see how many hours you fly on the captain upgrade.

Cheers,

DIVOSH!

[Mr snuffaluffagus]

I know of a few Qantas Cadets getting around in Sunnies with the seniority to hold a command but not the time. Hasn't stopped people below them getting commands.

[j3pipercub]

Thanks Di,

I think the situation you outlined may lead to some rather young jaded FO's.

j3

[majorlazer]

Gday J3,
I don't think bypassed FO's are jaded.
I think they are fully aware of the situation and which shortage they need address to achieve their goal. All normal stuff.

[rmcdonal]

In the situation that an FO is passed over for command due to lack of qualifications they still hold their spot on the seniority list, so when they do eventually make Captain they jump ahead of all the Captains who skipped them in the first place.
In some cases it may actually work in your favour, if for example you don't have the required minimums for command and then work your way to the top of the FO list you could bid for anything (Days off, duties, etc) you wanted and probably always get it. Also you would be last to be called in of reserve. When you finally did make Captain instead of going to the bottom of the Captain pile you would slot in above all the junior guys who jumped you in the first place, avoiding the reserve call ins and crap duties there as well. :ok:

[Di_Vosh]

As rmcdonal pointed out, there are some sweeteners for being the most senior FO in a base.

The people that I know who are "jaded" aren't the ones you'd necessarily expect:

The guys I know in the situation described aren't too fussed about it. After all, some of them got into the RHS of a turboprop after less than 2 years in aviation. :ok:

OTOH, I've met some FO's who've got "attitudes" and are "P1ssed Off" because they're not captains yet and they've been in the company for "Two Whole Years!" :eek:

IMHO, while it's important to keep the destination in sight, it's equally important to enjoy the journey.


Cheers,

DIVOSH!

P.S. I'm an FO.

[BackdoorBandit]

HappyBandit

So Hypothetically, could a new hire who spent more time out in the big bad world of GA and got the 500 ME, be up for a command before a cadet/trainee who does not meet the requirements, yet who has a higher seniority number??


highly unlikely....especially if afap has anything to do with it.....besides as it stands new guys need to be with company for at least year and by then many of trainees will have the min requirements. Even if dont introduce icus can lig 150 icus when upgrading for command so the 250 command will be covered.

Mate you really don't know what you are talking about. I strongly suggest you talk to somebody who understands the real situation, it looks to me as if most of what you write is wishfull thinking. So please stop posting your dreams as if they are fact.

1. People have already been bypassed.
2. People who do not meet the requirements (company and/or regulatory) will continue to be bypassed.
3. Meeting the requirements will be a slow process even with an ICUS program i.e. building required night hours.
4. New appointments who have an ATPL will bypass those that don't and can be made up to captain in order of seniority at any stage (company reqs can be waived at the companies discretion).
5. The company knows all the above and is actively recruiting people with ATPL's.
6. With the dropping of the $10k endorsment fee and being paid from day one for training, QL is once again looking like an option to an experienced pilot i.e. people with thousands of hours rather than hundreds.

I am sure those "in the know" will agree with me. To summarise, it will be a long road to a command for a trainee.

However to get a gig with the likes of QL with just a few hundred hours is pretty damn good!

[HappyBandit]

Backdoor bandit

You obviously dont work for said company. If you do you, my friend are the one who has no friggin clue. Yes people have been bypassed in the past but imagine the uproar it would cause if new guys start bypassing guys that have been there for 3 years. Its never been too much of an issue in past as they have had high experience to get in in the first place. Now with the trainees its a different story and I know for a fact that there are many senior drivers pushing for preservation of seniority list over guys meeting min requirements....I say again....I know for a fact!!! So back door back off because the stuff that is coming out of your mouth is coming from the back door.

[rmcdonal]

The 6 points BackdoorBandit made are correct.

1: People have been bypassed (some due to the Q400 18 month rule)
2: If they do not have the minimums they legally can not be Captain
3: A 300hr FO flying 800hrs a year (/2 for CO-Pilot hrs) would take 3 and a bit years for the 1500hrs for an ATPL.
4: The Company will simply go down the seniority list until they hit the next qualified candidate with a bid.
5: The Company would be silly not to recruit guys able to fill Captain seats.
6: If your options are flying a Chieftain or a Dash-8, I know what I would choose.

[HappyBandit]

Ok ok I am being over ruled by looks of it so will shut up!!! It is speculation anyway! Best of luck to all trying to get in....as rmcdonal says flying a dash sure beats flying chieftains!!!

[AQIS Boigu]

In my opinion the requirement of 500 multi command hours to be in command of a heavy turbo prop should be taken out of the CAOs immediately as well as the fact that copilot time only counts half towards the 1500 aeronautical experience.

CASA and Australian operators need to grow up and have a look around the world and see what other countries do...some countries in Asia and Europe dont even have a "multi column" in logbooks.

Anyone with the appropriate training and total time can be trained up to standard to fly a D8/Metro/Saab - it's up to the operators to invest in the required training. Moving from right to left is not that hard as long as the trainee has been taught to think as a captain before the upgrade.

At the end it is up to the individual's motivation and effort...but that applies during any upgrade course.

My 2c worth...

[harrowing]

AQIS boigu,
Re-read post #2. The 500 PIC multi only applies to a low capacity AOC and not to a high capacity one.
However it does seem anomalous that one could command a Q400 before being able to fly a 300 with a different company with a low capacity AOC.

[AQIS Boigu]

Harrowing,

sorry - so you are telling me that there is no more requirement of the magic 500 multi command under the IFR for to be in command of any turbo prop above 5.7t when conducting RPT (ie REX, Qlink, Air North...)???

Cheers
AB
ps.: left Aussie aviation many years ago...so not really current anymore with the regs...

[KRUSTY 34]

No AQUIS B', what he's saying is that 500 Multi-Command under the IFR is required for LOW Capacity AOC. ie: REX or any other operator that flies A/C with no more than 36 seats.

Qlink has a HIGH capacity AOC (required for the Q400) so that part of the REGs apply for all their ops.

I agree partly with the notion that a properly trained F/O, provided he/she is given the appropriate command training should be able to move to the left seat after good experience in the RHS. But don't dismiss the value of the 500 hours Multi-Command too lightly. For a pilot to have achieved this it is fairly likely they have been exposed to a variety of situations that may have given them the skills and latitude of thought needed even years down the track.

Also, my 2 cents.

[AQIS Boigu]

KRUSTY34,

Thanks for the clarification... of course- 500 multi command is good to have and I am glad I did it ... but as you also agreed on ... it can be done... in my company I fly with captains who come from either background (cadet as well as bush/GA) and I cant tell the difference unless I ask him (or her)

Cheers
AB

[BackdoorBandit]

Qlink has a HIGH capacity AOC (required for the Q400) so that part of the REGs apply for all their ops.




Also required for the Q300.

[Bo777]

Backdoorbandit is correct.

Divosh
OTOH, I've met some FO's who've got "attitudes" and are "P1ssed Off" because they're not captains yet and they've been in the company for "Two Whole Years!" http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif

You've narrowed these so-called "got attitudes, p1ssed off FOs" down to a handful of guys and gals in the company ... just wondering does that include you? :eek: