What will the AFPRB say this year?

[Mick Strigg]

With inflation now at 2.9%, it will be interesting to see what they recommend.

I wonder how it will be received by Messrs Brown and Darling!

[Pontius Navigator]

They will probably use the September figure if they use one at all. They should not however look at the inflation figure but at pay comparators which might be different. As industry has lower or even negative pay increases the they may even go for near 0%.

Of course, given that the CS got 3% per year back in August ...........

[SRENNAPS]

PN,

Of course, given that the CS got 3% per year back in August ...........

now you know that is an unfair (but admittedly true) comment….based on what the “MOD” CS had in the few years previous to that:=:)

[tommee_hawk]

"Of course, given that the CS got 3% per year back in August ..........."

Hmmm, that old chestnut - a C2 grade CS (Sqn Ldr equiv, if you like) earns less per annum than I'll be getting as my pension at 55.

As ever was, 3% of not very much = still not very much....

[Aeronut]

"C2 grade CS Sqn Ldr equiv"

Really?

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

"Of course, given that the CS got 3% per year back in August ..........."

Hmmm, that old chestnut - a C2 grade CS (Sqn Ldr equiv, if you like) earns less per annum than I'll be getting as my pension at 55.

As ever was, 3% of not very much = still not very much....

But it's still 3% :ok:

[Jumping_Jack]

Bit early to be starting this thread! Based on last year I would have thought that the questions could start around the end of March! I seem to remember that the announcement was made about 5 minutes before our 1 Apr paysheets arrived!

[dctyke]

The computer says 'NO' :bored:

[Pontius Navigator]

And I believe it was 5% on a 4-5 year deal before that. Only the deal following that one was not agree but the Unions.

Agreed 3% not based on not a lot was not a lot.

My pay was substantially more than my pension but substantially less than a Cpl :(.

[vecvechookattack]

The South African military received a pay rise of approx 65% this year.... Don't think we will get that

[airborne_artist]

Don't think we will get that

Er, no. Even in 1979 when Mrs T got in we only had 35%. My pay went up by nearly 65% though, as I got a year's seniority and flying training pay (RIP) at about the same time. I think my pay went from £2600 to about £4300 in six weeks..:E

Beer was about 30p/pint, since you ask ;)

[TheTiresome1]

Airborne Artist, I remember that period with affection as well. Added to seniority increments and other factors, my pay rise over a 2 year tour was in the same %ge frame as yours. i couldn't drink it fast enough, so actually had to start saving. Something to do with marrying the OH, who alo got a lovely big pay-rise!

This time? How much money does the Govt want to spend on buying Mil votes? They might be generous, especially as a different Govt is likely to have to pick up the bill ;)

[Biggus]

Personally I expect there to be a modest pay rise for the military this year.

There are 6 million voters, I mean workers, in the public sector, and the Labour party is not going to miss the chance to give them a bribe, I mean a pay rise, just before an election. Given the situation with the public finances any pay rise will have to be modest, but not so modest it is insulting - no doubt G Brown still remembers the backlash when, as chancellor, he increased old aged pensions by 50p a week.

The AFPRB is not truely independent, if you look at the first few paragraphs of any report they produce they list the constraints they have to work within, the last time it included the governments inflation target and how much extra the MOD could afford!!

It will be the 11/12 annual pay rise that will be non existant or miniscule!

[rock34]

0% and we're all getting the sack. :eek:

[vecvechookattack]

0% and we're all getting the sack.

Not all of us but you are correct in so much as there will many of us who will be looking for work by the end of the year.

[gijoe]

So, as per the other X-roads thread, redundancies then?

Second orderly queue please.

:ok:G

[Melchett01]

Quote:
0% and we're all getting the sack.

Not all of us but you are correct in so much as there will many of us who will be looking for work by the end of the year.

Well given that job security has to a certain extent probably acted as a brake on pay rises in recent years, does the downsizing of the military and redundancies mean this argument for limiting pay rises is now null and void????

[VinRouge]

Obamas current dire approval ratings will be on the Tories minds post-election. THere is a LOT of pain coming up post election and I wouldnt be surprised to see 15-20% cut across the public sector on the day after the emergency budget. The Canadians did it, with the advent of 3% CPI gives the BOE very little wiggle room for QE and therefore funding gilt purchases. The bonds market are going to DEMAND higher yeilds and therefore rates will rise significantly without drastic action on spending. Big pain in 1st year of term, followed by 3 years of economic recovery.


I am expecting 0% this year, even if those tw*ts Labour give us a pay rise, I wouldnt be surprised to see it reversed in the emergency budget.

Lets face it, what faces us as the UK is an enormous excrement sandwich and unfortunately, we are ALL going to have to take a big bite.

Welcome back to Stagflation folks. Labour have managed it twice in a row.

[Wensleydale]

"C2 grade CS Sqn Ldr equiv"

Really?


Yes: Flt Lt is officially a "D" Grade (equivalent of JO down to Cpl). It makes managing ones CS staff somewhat unwieldy, but......

It means that a D Grade can go to the OM for Lunch.:ugh:

[peppermint_jam]

I am expecting 0% this year, even if those tw*ts Labour give us a pay rise, I wouldnt be surprised to see it reversed in the emergency budget.

Expect nothing then anything better is a bonus, that's my thought for this year too.

[Jumping_Jack]

My sentiments entirely P_J

[The B Word]

Any rumours leaking yet?

Previous AFPRB reports were:

08 Feb 96
06 Feb 97
29 Jan 98
01 Feb 99
15 Feb 00
09 Feb 01
29 Jan 02
08 Feb 03
23 Feb 04
22 Feb 05
16 Feb 06
01 Mar 07
07 Feb 08
31 Mar 09

So we are starting to get into the final staffing and release plan.

Come on let's hear the rumours...:ok:

[skaterboi]

I heard a rumour that it was going to 10%.

But a pay cut though! :eek:

[Twon]

They need to get a shift on if they are going to announce it before the General election is called as that may put a stop to announcements, including our pay award, in the build up to V-Day.

Interesting to note that PVR times for all are down to 6 months; I wonder if this is an early move to get rid of as many people as they can before redundancies are needed? That might fund a modest pay rise for the rest of us left in though. Maybe I'm reading too much into it?

[Melchett01]

I find the whole pay issue particularly distasteful and dominated by politics rather than a fair recognition of what the Armed Forces as an entirity are worth.

When times are good and the private sector is coining it in and pocketing their bonuses, we can't get a significant pay rise as it might lead to unacceptable inflationary pressures. I think 6 figure bonuses and 'fat cat' pay might be more of an issue than 5% for a group of people earning in a year what many fat cats earn in a week.

When times are bad and the private sector are reaping the fruits of their efforts and bonuses are down or out, we must now share in their pain as to do otherwise would be politically unacceptable.

Anybody else see a degree of inequality here? Politicians. Can't live with them, can't shoot them.

[VinRouge]

If we get above 1%, we are lucky. Otoh, Labour, knowing that their goose is cooked, may decide to lavish the public sector with huge pay rises to b*gger the incoming conservative government.

I would rather see 0% across the entire public sector tbh, no-one can complain then.

Oh, that includes MPs.

Its amazing to hear about major procurement projects across the public sector that are getting locked in over the past 6 months; its almost as if the Labour party are destroying the future of the country because the electorate are planning to vote Tory.

Pathetic really. I really hope for a hung parliament.

[Gnd]

Oh, that includes MPs

They go a minus figure, due to claim cuts!!!!!

[minigundiplomat]

I can live with 0% if it helps out UK PLC. The problem being, that I see the money being hosed up against some wall in pursuit of votes, rather than paying off debt.

[VinRouge]

MGD, I agree. I would take a 0% payrise if they promised to stop F*cking my savings through printing cash to pay for the deficit.

Who would have thought the UK would follow what mugabe did? :ugh::ugh:

[vecvechookattack]

Me too. I'd be happy with a pay freeze.

[Pete268]

Well, for those already retired from HM Forces:

From Hansard Written Answers for 19th Jan 2010.

House of Commons Hansard Written Answers for 19 Jan 2010 (pt 0001) (http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200910/cmhansrd/cm100119/text/100119w0001.htm)

Armed Forces: Pensions

Nick Harvey: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what effect the negative level of retail price index inflation in September 2009 will have on the level of armed forces pensions in the next 12 months. [309734]
Mr. Kevan Jones [holding answer 11 January 2010]: Public service pension upratings are linked by primary legislation to those for additional state pensions, such as the state second pension, and the uprating in April 2010 will take account of the rate of inflation over the year to September 2009. As announced at the pre-Budget report 2008, legislation governing uprating for additional state pensions means that in the event of a negative Retail Price Index (RPI), benefit rates will be protected at least in nominal terms (i.e. not reduced on account of deflation), thereby providing an increase in support in real terms. The RPI change for September 2009 was minus 1.4 per cent., therefore benefits will remain at current levels.

So nothing if you have already gone.

Even worse, is the fact that whilst DWP Benefits (for the great unwashed in a lot of cases) rise, no mention whatsoever of any increase whatsoever for those receiving either AFCS or War Disablement Pensions instead of the equvalent 'civvy' DWP benefits.

It is a point not missed by many veterans.

[Two-Tone-Blue]

Thanks, Pete ... that made it all so clear. ;)

I know I talk cr@p occasionally, but that quote really said [not] a lot. How can people say such gibberish with a straight face?

Still, I'm now getting my State Pension, so that's OK. Possibly.

[adminblunty]

The Treasury pay remit document sent to government departments says to give civil servants a payrise of between 0-1% for FY 10/11, except for those departments on multi year deals, i.e. the MOD. Multi year deals areare to be honoured. I'd expect the AFPRB pay rise to be around the 1-2% figure as the military have always got slightly more than the Civil Service.

[The B Word]

The Treasury pay remit document sent to government departments says to give civil servants a payrise of between 0-1% for FY 10/11, except for those departments on multi year deals, i.e. the MOD. Multi year deals areare to be honoured.

Here's a link to the document:

Public Sector Pay - HM Treasury (http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/tax_pay_index.htm)

Thanks AB for the tip :ok:

[Army Mover]

LOL - wishful thinking; more like showing solidarity with their comrades in the Puzzle Palace. :ouch:

[The B Word]

Army Mover

Unsure of your meaning of "Puzzle Palace" - I've always heard that term in connection with NSA and GCHQ! Try googling and you'll see what I mean.

The B Word

[Army Mover]

Mmm; see what you mean. Many years before James Bamford, the Puzzle Palace was also how we who worked out at the lesser London sites referred to Whitehall and MOD Main Building.

[Finger Poking]

AFPRB 2010 - BAFF - British Armed Forces Federation (http://www.baff.org.uk/afprb-2010.htm)

So, it was given to the Fat Cycloptic Sweaty-Sock Unelected Loony Labour PM in January.....

Waiting for another bad-news day to hide it ?

God I hate this government and its lack of respect......

He has the information.... RELEASE IT !!!!

[vecvechookattack]

There is still another 5 weeks before it has to be released....Why the hurry?

[Melchett01]

There is still another 5 weeks before it has to be released....Why the hurry?

How about treating people with respect and decency? How about not having those who will be impacted by your decisions hanging on because you can't be bothered to tell them what is going on?

That's why there's a hurry. I couldn't care less how uncomfortable it is for the PM and his cronies to read the AFPRB's report, why do they not take this last final opportunity before they become unemployed and hopefully unemployable to do what is right and proper for the Forces rather than what is easy and politically expedient. For once.

[vecvechookattack]

They will do all of that....when its time. It's not time yet. Just be patient.

[minigundiplomat]

Vec,

I have to respect you. No matter what the subject of the thread, you have an unerring knack of making yourself look a kn0b.

MGD

[vecvechookattack]

The change of pay conditions will happen on 1 st April. The same as it did last year and the same as it will next year.

The chances are that our pay will increase by a limited margin as we all know having read the galaxy notices. If the government announce the pay change tomorrow it won't make any difference. The government are busy working out the budget which will be announced in March. Public sector pay will be frozen at 1%.

We will know which Government will form by 3rd June 2010 at the latest.

[Lufthansa Joe]

No matter what the subject of the thread, you have an unerring knack of making yourself look a kn0b.


http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:L8s9RVBm-Qq64M:http://tsfiles.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/pot-kettle-black.jpg

[minigundiplomat]

You may work for Lufthansa, but you can't be German with a sense of humour like that!

I'm just waiting for a post from Vec arguing that the pot and kettle are actually white.

[vecvechookattack]

http://www.v6performance.net/gallery/data/500/10248KettleCallingPotBlack.jpg

The pot calling the kettle black

Meaning

The notion of a criticism a person is making of another could equally well apply to themself.

Origin
This phrase originates in Cervantes' Don Quixote, or at least in Thomas Shelton's 1620 translation - Cervantes Saavedra's History of Don Quixote:

"You are like what is said that the frying-pan said to the kettle, 'Avant, black-browes'."

The first person who is recorded as using the phrase in English was William Penn, the founder of Pennsylvania, in his Some fruits of solitude, 1693:

"For a Covetous Man to inveigh against Prodigality... is for the Pot to call the Kettle black."

Shakespeare had previously expressed a similar notion in a line in Troilus and Cressida, 1601- "The raven chides blackness."

[Lufthansa Joe]

I'm just waiting for a post from Vec arguing that the pot and kettle are actually white.

Look, there you go again.

making yourself look a kn0b.

As we Germans like to say "hor auf, so laut in dieser nervigen sprache zu reden"

[minigundiplomat]

"hor auf, so laut in dieser nervigen sprache zu reden"


Not an actual translation of the same phrase then....

[Lima Juliet]

According to the online translator, you Germans have an excellent form of wit!

"hor auf, so laut in dieser nervigen sprache zu reden"
=
"stopped speaking speak so loudly in this irritating"

:confused:

[cornish-stormrider]

Oi, Girls Thread drift alert. I know you are all getting bored and anxious about how much you will not be getting in a oay rise this year.

well me and my flux capacitor have just returned from next month where the new leader of the UK defense force party, His empororship Shouty Clarkson has decreed that there will be a 10% rise in pay to all serving troops. this is to be paid for by the removal of the giving money to lazy wastrels so carried by the elected parties.

Moreover the fact that his empororship was put in place as the mouthpiece of the military coup staged by a group of irritated servicemen and women who marched on parliament and kicke the doors in.

All mp's who fiddled expenses now sit at Her Majesty's Displeasure in the Tower.

An unnamed source from within the ranks said the coup was started on PPrune from a comment made by an idiot......

[cornish-stormrider]

back to reality with a bump now.


£909,702,750,347 - this is the current government debt as of 11:21 this morning. It is going up by about 4000 per second or thereabouts.
You lot think you will get a pay rise.....yeah ok when I **** diamonds you get a pay rise.

[Runaway Gun]

Really? Please start eating coal and squeezing tightly asap:ok:

[Radar Command T/O]

Stop me if I'm wrong, but for the last 10-15 years, the private sector have been giving themselves inflation-busting pay rises while the public sector for the most part has had to endure lower than inflation rises in order to keep in line with the govt's inflation targets. However, now that the private sector is feeling the squeeze and cutting pay it expects the public sector to do the same. Perhaps the private sector should have shown a little more restraint when times were good.

Maybe if AFPRB 39th report reflects the current inflation rate (3.5%) as it has always claimed to do in the past the public sector may start to close the gap that has opened up between private and public salaries over the last 15 years.

Then again, when has this govt ever stood up for anything? We'll see 1.5% if we're lucky in order to placate the private sector.

[vecvechookattack]

There have also been some heavy Public sector pay rises in recent weeks.

Stoke CC gave their CEO a 34% pay rise and Wokingham gave theirs a 17% pay rise.

Me, I'm just happy to have a job

[Radar Command T/O]

Vecvec,

We know that actions of CCs often beggar belief, and what you've stated would be no exception. Somehow, I can't see the AFPRB recommending a 34% rise for CDS!

However, while banks are continuing to award massive bonuses to staff out of public money I cannot see how anyone could complain at the AF and other public employees (nurses, teachers etc) getting a rise mirroring inflation.

That said, actions like those of Stoke CC only serve to fuel resentment among those who are currently feeling the pinch.

[VinRouge]

That said, actions like those of Stoke CC only serve to fuel resentment among those who are currently feeling the pinch.I am sure if they dont like it, there are 2.48 million unemployed brits willing to do their jobs for them....

The CS needs a scythe taking to it. Including local councils, that seem to p*ss people off, for increased taxes, with lower standards of public services.

[vecvechookattack]

I understood that the Pay rises had to be announced before the start of the financial year... As the pay rises start from the beginning of April. The election may not be until June.

[Biggus]

It's not rocket science....

The general election will be on 6 May. GB will want to hold on as long as possible for the economy to improve - he hasn't got a spontaneous bone in his body, and he isn't a gambler. 6 May is the date for council elections in England, so having the general election at the same time saves money. If GB goes on past 6 May he will be criticised heavily in all the press, for wasting money, being scared to go to the electorate, etc, which will all lose votes.....

As for announcing the Armed Forces pay rise.... It is not just the Armed Forces, it is all public sector workers, some 6 million of them, who are all voters. By 20th April (ish) you can check on JPA what your pay for the month will be, and hence your pay rise. Are the government really going to want the press to find out the pay increase from the workforce, rather than announce it themselves.

Any pay rise, or lack of it, will be announced by 1st April at the latest, but quite possibly no earlier!!!

[+SHRA]

I wonder if the AFRPB has taken into account the PAX increase of almost 10%? Me thinks not!

[vecvechookattack]

Will they consider my life insurance with Barclays Insurance ?

No. And nor should they consider your insurance with your insurance company

[Diablo Rouge]

I have been long enough to be ancient, and I can recall a previous year when the announcement went to the wire. I am wondering if it was '78 when the Service familes subsequently 'striked' on our behalf down Downing Street. If there are parallels, then it wont be good news when it comes.

[airborne_artist]

Diablo - '79 was the year we got 30% or thereabouts in one tranche when Mrs T won the May election. Previous Labour govts had given the pay rise over two years, but pre-election Mrs T promised to hand it out in one year, and was true to her word. My pay shot up by about 60% in six week when the 30% was added to a seniority pay rise and the start of flying training pay (RIP).

[Door Slider]

I believe that the monthly pay run usually happens on the 16th of the month. I have seen paperwork that the pay run for March will happen on the 11th. I assume therefore that any changes to pay and allowances should be annonced by the 11th.

[Brown Job]

March's pay run is always early in order to give SPVA time to go through all their end of FY protocols. They also need to upload the new pay rates and charges table so that they can operate them from 1 Apr. So yes it is getting late for the announcement but maybe SPVA already have the results of AFPBR and are not allowed to tell us. Perhaps cyclops is just waiting till Parliament goes on its Easter hols and no questions can be asked .............

[Ginger Beer]

Just read an article in the Guardian. MPs to get 1.5% while some Public sector peeps have a pay freeze.

MPs to get 1.5% pay rise | Politics | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/mar/04/mps-to-get-1-5-pay-rise?CMP=AFCYAH)

Rgds

Ginge

[8-15fromOdium]

I notice the Grauniad reports that: The figure is arrived at by identifying the median of the pay increases received by 15 groups of public sector workers for 2009. Will we be in the group that gets more or less? BTW, having noted your initials GB, do you have an inside track on this?

[Biggus]

This particular website seems to think there may be an announcement on Tuesday 9th March....

Financial Matters News - RAF Families Federation (http://www.raf-families-federation.org.uk/financial-news.asp?id=474)

Whether or not this is accurate, only time will tell!

[vecvechookattack]

Nothing yesterday..... will it be today?

I'll put my money on 1.5%

[Jumping_Jack]

slightly more?:ok:

[vecvechookattack]

BBC News - Budget will be on 24 March, Brown says (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8559268.stm)


Getting closer

[Jumping_Jack]

Announcement embargo to be lifted at 0930.....:)

[Jumping_Jack]

2% it is then:ok:

[vecvechookattack]

BBC News - Senior public servants' pay to be frozen (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8559190.stm)

Bugger all then. Who counts as "senior Military staff"... Is that 1* and above?

[Willard Whyte]

"But he also urged discipline in public sector pay, announcing a pay freeze on senior public servants such as NHS managers, top civil servants, judges and military leaders and the pay of consultants, GPs and dentists."

from BBC News - Brown warns economic storm not over (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8558821.stm)

[Lord Trenchards Brat]

Well its just been flashed around by email here its 2% - thats via a link to an official signal. Oh well party on hold til next year then......:(

[Jumping_Jack]

The 2% rise is across all ranks to 1*.

[vecvechookattack]

2% is fantastic news.

Bearing in mind that most people are bearing a pay freeze, some are losing pay and some are losing their jobs then I think that 2% is very generous.

Thank you Gordon. You get my vote.

[VinRouge]

He will be getting mine too.

The economic mess of his making he will be left to clean up will make Labour unelectable for the next 50 years.

[Willard Whyte]

It's an interesting point, does one vote for Labour in an attempt to ensure consecutive non-labour administrations from five years hence, or bank on David "Dave" Cameron sorting out the brown mess this time around?

Tricky, tricky, decisions.

[heavybuffet]

2% is a good pay deal in the current economic climate :D

Rant on. "Now if we could just ensure adequate funding to run what is left of the UK Armed Forces that would great. Perhaps that would reduce the ill educated rhetoric delivered by senior Army Officers in an attempt to secure at the a greater proportion of the Defence Vote at the expense of a balanced future defence of the UK." Rant over

[unclenelli]

http://www.ome.uk.com/Document/Default.aspx?DocumentUid=E7B63F50-BCC2-4FA7-A553-326BB1B30945
(This should download the .pdf, otherwise try http://www.ome.uk.gov/AFPRB_Reports.aspx and click on 39th Report 2010)

[Willard Whyte]

Thanks for the link.

Agreed, 2% is probably the very best one could expect these days.

[Red Line Entry]

Cornish,

Re Post 52 - have de Beers made you an offer for those diamonds then?

[Nomorefreetime]

Good result for long serving GE's and Muppets.
10 Days down to 7 also good.

[Stanley Eevil]

PA Spine Flt Lt (OF2) pilots: please have a close look at the footnotes to the PA Spine pay bands on page 55 which have been amended compared to the AFPRB 2008 and 2009 documents. Up until now, the ceiling for Flt Lt Pilots on the PAS has been level 35 - the top level. What is your interpretation of footnote `b`?
"OF2 Aircrew cannot progress beyond Increment Level 30"
An error in the document, OR a stitch-up on a massive scale?
Please discuss.......

[StopStart]

Cheeky dirtbags.... That used to be WSO(Navigators) capped at Level 30....

So is it, as the man says, a spelling error or is it a sneaky change to what I signed up to? :hmm:

[Exiled]

Don't panic. Reserved rights will exist for exisiting members of PAS. The detail is in the Flying Pay paper of evidence.

[cornish-stormrider]

been squeezing and squeezing and all that happens is the poop fires out and cracks the pan - wife not happy.

Alas no good news - you're all fooked, proper, like the rabbit.

(for all those who don't understand read my first comment on this thread)

I do like the idea of voting back in gordy - but how much of a f*** up would it be and how long to fix it?

[Willard Whyte]

As a 'life-long' OF2 PAS Nav, sorry, 'WSO', I think I'm in the same boat as before.

Not a bad place to be.

[VinRouge]

Cornish,

Beraing in mind fitch and moodys are itching to downgrade our gilts, not long I suspect.

A couple of months with petrol at 2 quid a litre and Interest rates above 5% should do it. You only need to look at the cuts that Ireland and Greece have made to see what we have in store.

[wahwah64]

I do have to giggle to myself. It (the AFPRB findings) goes on to say that the current job market is picking up, Rotary more so, yet it only offers a very, and I mean very, narrow band, short term FRI to Apache crews of 50k, yet a whacking 100k to senior rank flyers (presumably fast jet fraternity???). What about the rest of the rotary world??? Sure the PES(A)/PAS banding changes will help, but you would firstly have to serve another 10 years or so to reap the rewards, and hope that you get promoted.

[Capt Niff Naff]

Exiled,
I read the Flying Pay bit, and it makes me worry. As an OF 2 on level 31, do I stay on PAS all the way up to level 35 or do they cut me munny unless I get OF3?
You seem sure that there will be no change to those on existing PAS, but it does say from 1 Apr 10, and not new entrants to PAS.
Captain NN:eek:

[Just This Once...]

So much for the promised revision to the CS Spine to bridge the PAS gap. Now the bloke sitting next to me at the same rank, age, seniority, branch and job as me can earn an extra £3k per annum (by moving to level 33) on top of his PAS pension advantage!




(He is a bloody nice bloke though).

[Exiled]

Capt NN

I believe that you will be cleared to Level 35. As I said the report does not go into the fine detail, however I have seen the original POE and that makes it more clear that existing PAS have reserved rights.

[maximo ping]

Exiled, I'm sure that you've done more to combat hypertension issues in the RAF in the last 12 hours than the entire medical branch over the last 12 months (for which many thanks), but any idea where the relevant paper might be found? The "announcement" today was as much of a surprise to the nice folks in PSF as to those who may or may not be affected, and it would be nice to be able to help to keep the Chief Clerk from an early grave...

[ProfessionalStudent]

[QUOTE]Recommendation 12: We recommend that with effect from 1 April 2010:
• The Aircrew FRI should be extended to run until 31 March 2013, targeting
RN and RAF Career Stream SO pilots, with a payment of £100,000 at IRP,
requiring a five-year return of service.
• The revised FRI should no longer include RAF and RN SO Weapon System
Operators and Observers.
• Eligibility should be extended to RN and RAF OF2 pilots at IRP, offering
£80,000 for a five-year return of service.
• Eligibility should be extended to RN OF2 Observers at IRP, offering
£40,000 for a five-year return of service./QUOTE]

If I read that correctly, all Lt RN and Flt Lt pilots will get £80K at their IPP. And transfer to PAS as well? If that's the case (as someone 13 days from IPP), thanks very much and bring it on...

[The B Word]

Just done the pension calculator thingie and it now means that a PAS Flt Lt retiring on Level 30 will get around £31k per annum and a £96k lump sum. This is certainly less than figure somewhere between a Wg Cdr and Gp Capt's pension that it used to be (same prediction for Level 35 gives £35k pension and £105k lump sum).

I'm guessing that PAS is not going to be the good deal that everyone thought it was going to be if they're not on Level 35 already?

Here's a link to the pension calculator http://83.138.137.164:8080/

Kind of takes the shine off of the 2% when you consider the changes to the Armed Forces Redundancy Scheme as well. :*

All this spin is making me dizzy...

[StopStart]

The email from the deskenfuhrer this afternoon confirmed that if you're already on PAS then you remain on the original terms. The level 30 cap applies to those who accept a PAS offer after by 1 Apr 10.
Panic over :ok:

[Stanley Eevil]

StopStart; would you be prepared to outline the rough content of that email? Via PM if more convenient?
Regards, Stanley.

[zedder]

The email from the deskenfuhrer this afternoon confirmed that if you're already on PAS then you remain on the original terms. The level 30 cap applies to those who accept a PAS offer after 1 Apr 10.

That's a shame. The whole idea of the change was to stop the Flt Lt Pilot who does nothing but turn up to fly or sim, but Sweet FA else, getting a bigger pension than all the Sqn Ldrs (except a PAS Pilot) and generally speaking probably the Boss.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

The email from the deskenfuhrer this afternoon confirmed that if you're already on PAS then you remain on the original terms. The level 30 cap applies to those who accept a PAS offer after by 1 Apr 10.
Panic over :ok:

That will put a big smile back on the fizzogs of the two incumbents in our office that this was so irking as I left work yestertag :p

[Exiled]

Max P

Thanks! I am not sure that the relevent documentation is available for general consumption but it will, no doubt make it into the JSP in due course. However, as has now been reported, the Deskie has provided the assurance which is sought.

Prof Stude

Your assumption regarding PAS and FRI is, I believe, correct. Not a bad deal for the lucky few.

[Mick Strigg]

The Pension Calculator hasn't been updated with the new rates of pay yet, so the figures that come out will be incorrect anyway.

[StopStart]

That's a shame. The whole idea of the change was to stop the Flt Lt Pilot who does nothing but turn up to fly or sim, but Sweet FA else, getting a bigger pension than all the Sqn Ldrs (except a PAS Pilot) and generally speaking probably the Boss.

Yes, because that's pretty much all we do. :hmm: Or in fact do some of us work our arses off on the actual business of the RAF (i.e. instruction, flying and ops) rather than chisel our way into Sqn Ldr-dom and then spend our lives either churning out pointless staffwork advertising how jolly clever we are or just clambering in and out of the boss's backside?

I assume from your post that you're perhaps a bitter sqn ldr who a) fears his chiselling has taken him as far up the rank structure as i's going to and b) is surrounded by happy PAS Flt Lts who know they aren't faced with a life of polishing the boss's nipsy to get anywhere in life and who just actually enjoy coming into work to do what the joined the RAF to do i.e. fly 'planes.

If, however, your PAS Flt Lts are just idle scumbags then may I suggest you or the other myriad of Sqn Ldrs cluttering the place up use some of that hard earned :rolleyes: rank to get all military on their asses? You could perhaps order them to do some of those desperately important secondary duties you've thought up to advertise yourself?

Author's note: Readers may be under the impression that I have issues with Sqn Ldrs. This isn't entirely the case. I am fortunate to work for (and have worked for) some very capable examples who, if there is any justice in the world, will rise to lofty rank and retire on vast pensions. That said, I also share the station with some incredible examples of how self-service and the heads of others can be used as stepping stones to higher rank.

[MoTiv@tor]

StopStart, would you be prepared to PM me a copy of the email as well? Regards Motiv@te

[formertonkaplum]

Every Year I am amazed by the greed and want to swell already plentyfull banks with more cash.

Yes we have all heard how our 'Jedi' masters deserve swollen pensions and massive incentives to stay within the force..... when it is only ever going to be the ones who were staying anyway taking the vast sums.

And at the other end of the feeding trough, the Engineers who maintain and give you the glourious cabs in which to take your Ass's skywards are paid at the exact same levels as those who's job it is to screw up pay (Admin Staff) at every turn. The devaluation of respect to be quantified at the level of a ruler moving scribbly.

How the fat get fat and the shat on sink. So when your boasting about the pension you'll receive that is probably more than my Chiefs salary now, please remember, your not hard done to, you probably have job satisfaction and if you can't show loyalty to those whom you allegedly lead and set the example to, without whinging about your F*cking Fat Over-paid arse's for 5 minutes..... Log in to JPA and Apply for Termination.

[StopStart]

Fish with those chips?
If it's that bad you'll be delighted to hear that the Termination button works for you too.
:rolleyes:

[left back]

I spoke directly to the guy in London who deals with pay and he confirmed that Flt Lt PAS would be capped at 30. The only exception would be if you were already past that point in which case you would mark time until retirement.

[Bofaboy]

Stop Start,

"The actual business of the RAF -Instruction, Flying, Ops." Have you put that in priority order? I sense that you probably have.

BB

[Stanley Eevil]

LB; I would suggest that your `man in London` may have overlooked the point that most ex Spec Aircrew Flt Lt pilots accepted PAS, (which by its very nature was designed to decouple pay from rank), because of the guaranteed salary increments, year on year, to level 35 thereby providing a continually rising income over and above any annual pay increase granted (or not granted!) by the government. If level 35 was not a possibility, many pilots would probably not have signed up for it in the first place and moved to the airlines. Furthermore, the `cap` at level 30 would involve a change to conditions of service (i.e. the initial `PAS contract` that we signed up to - not to mention the significance of level 35 on the hugely important AFPS75 vs AFPS05 decision) and so `reserved rights` must surely apply otherwise legal challenges would have a very high chance of succeeding.
StopStart - any further thoughts? Clarification of your discussion with the `desky` (P.C.?) would put many minds at rest .....

[cornish-stormrider]

Stopstart - I think what my esteemed bombhead colleague was refering to was that if you continue to employ engineers at f**k-all pay then don't be suprised when they all leave and you get left with the monkeys that would not be fit to sweep my workshop.
I have the distinct misfortune to be saddled with one of this generations yoof and his work ethic is appalling.

If he were in I would not fly his jet!

old adage of pay peanuts get monkeys......

Fly safe won't you now.

Oh, and FWIW I don't begrudge you sky gods your salaries - them watches and shiny crap you lot thrive on must cost a packet. The golf course is thataway ------>

CS

[vecvechookattack]

Furthermore, the `cap` at level 30 would involve a change to conditions of service (i.e. the initial `PAS contract` that we signed up to - not to mention the significance of level 35 on the hugely important AFPS75 vs AFPS05 decision) and so `reserved rights` must surely apply otherwise legal challenges would have a very high chance of succeeding.

Apart from the fact that when you signed then you signed having noticed that you agreed to accept any changes to the conditions of service

[StopStart]

Stanley Eevil - PM sent. Mil email being useless!

"The actual business of the RAF -Instruction, Flying, Ops." Have you put that in priority order? I sense that you probably have.


Bless you for your concern. Not in a priority order, just my programme for the next few weeks. Not a QFI anyway (from your inference) just a humble FI on a front line sqn with an average of 5 months per year for the last 7 years on Ops and most of the rest of the year spent flying on PDT exercises. But feel free to tell me aaaalllll about it. Apologies if I nod off. :hmm:

[Biggus]

Cornish.....

While I appreciate that "formertonkaplum" and most/many other techies have issues with TG17 being put on the higher pay band (rightly or wrongly) to seem to believe that it was part of some conspiracy by the entire officer corps, including PAS Flt Lt pilots, is quite frankly ridiculous.....

The last few entires on this thread have been mainly about PAS Flt Lt pilots discussing how their pay/pensions/conditions may have been changed by the latest AFPRB report - and seeking clarity. If some of that has included discussing what "former..." considers obscene sums of money, well people need to get over it. Thats what they get paid, and it's less than many mainstream airline pilots....

Oh, and by the way, I'm a level 30 capped PAS nav, not a pilot........:O

[Stanley Eevil]

StopStart, thanks - very grateful. Further PM sent with a couple of questions.

[Arthur Young]

My first post, so please be gentle with me....

Pay awards always an issue.
My thoughts: PAS already on it bullet proof regardless of what some bloke down the pub says, but going on to it new terms will apply; Engineer pay and conditions a big problem needs to be addressed, RAF helicopter crewmen pay and conditions a really big problem which never seems to be addressed or even acknowledged.

And no, I'm not a crewman but most RAF helicopters need more than just pilots to operate it.

I would like to see the Engineer and Crewman pay etc solved, ideally at the expense of the senior officers.:E

[left back]

Mr Eevil

I hope you are correct, and I agree with everything you say regards decisions made, but "my man in London" thinks otherwise and unfortunately he implements the policy. It certainly needs to be clarified at the highest levels so that representations can be made to the people in power before April 1st.

[Thobe Gutra]

Mr Evil....you make some excellent points ..especially the effect of the cap on pensions.........it will make a huge difference to final pension.......I signed up to the deal at the time not this cap in increments. Mr LB- good research mate..could the info you got be in error? if not it must be overturned.....I would reach the cap in 2 years ..about the time the airlines and netjets will be recuiting heavily (economics and demographics)....... I am quite keen to stay, but this will make up my mind to go...taking some very sort after skills, experiance and quals with me - hope the man wid da power to review the situation is privy to this thread.:*

[Diablo Rouge]

I am quite keen to stay, but this will make up my mind to go..
Which may well be exactly the attitude they are looking for. Remember all ground trade PVRs across the board are now 6 months. A sure sign if ever there was one that a downsizing is already under way. Nobody is regarded as being worth saving, although the AH64 chaps probably disagree with that after their AFPRB package this year. You will probably find that you can get out so quickly that somebody else has to turn your IT off for you 'cause you have already left the building.

The million dollar questions are:
What numbers are they downsizing to, and apart from AH crews, is anybody else invaluable. The leaner fitter RAF to which the senior brethren aspire is fundamentalty youth based, not experience based. Young, pliable and fit, otherwise you are disposable. I fear the RAF may adopt the philosophy of the other two services in that a military career is over at age 40.

D_R On PAS and earning more than my bosses boss :ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

That's a shame. The whole idea of the change was to stop the Flt Lt Pilot who does nothing but turn up to fly or sim, but Sweet FA else, getting a bigger pension than all the Sqn Ldrs (except a PAS Pilot) and generally speaking probably the Boss.

Zedder would you believe your comments were made exactly 40 years ago?

The whole point of spec aircrew and PA is to retain competent and professional aircrew over the age of 38 and in the process recognising that they will never get promoted beyond sqn ldr/flt lt.

It started with two officer streams - the direct entry and the Cranwell cadets. The latter were specially selected and trained to become tomorrows leaders. The also rans had the aptitude to be the tip of the spear and were required in large numbers.

The lists were combined as it was recognised that some direct entrants developed better than some Cranwell officers. However to retain the essential operational experience beyond 38 they introduced the spec aircrew cadre.

PA was just an update to that scheme. But to use PA in command authority, commensurate with their experience, but in excess of their rank, is wholly wrong as it starves the 30 year old thrusting sqn ldr from that essential command experience.

That essential experience so that he can learn how not to be a w^nker.

The PA flt lt who does sim and fly is doing exactly what he is employed for. He is available to be messed around by that sqn ldr. He can dispense pearls of wisdom "f*** **f, Sir" and is experience waiting to be used. If you don't use him properly then you have not learnt how to exploit your resources.

They deserve the pay.

PS, I am pleased to see that despite PA my pension is well within sight of theirs. Only problem is keeping it out of sight of the tax man :(

[HEDP]

The AH SNCO deal is great for the lads.:ok: I understand that the only reason it has not happened before now (and in time to stop some of the damage that is already done) is because it would be seen to be devisive. It is a crying shame however that it is only for SNCO's as the main drain on AH is the loss of officers. How many SNCO AH pilots have gone to the RAF as opposed to officers going the same way? I am guessing that officers are overborne covering for gaps in the SNCO ranks but surely any AH pilot saved is better than one lost, officer or SNCO! Ironically we will now have officers doing the same job on significantly less pay then SNCOs, what will the result be on officer retention? I would imagine the majority of SNCO's will not yet be at their IRP and so will not need retaining and given the measure is only to last 3 years then most wil miss out. Short term, minimal targetting therefore minimal effect. Officers will continue to leave therefore the AH seats will remain vacant, the quality of life will not improve and more will leave........

All IMHO,

HEDP

[mutleyfour]

HEDP

I think that given the increased level of PES (A) for SNCO's and the FRI, a lot of those that commissioned over the past few years will be wishing they hadn't.

[Pontius Navigator]

Just a thought on how your pay might legitimately be squeezed.

The military pension is 'non-contributory' in theory, but in practice pay is reduced by a percentage to be comparable with private pension schemes. Historically this was 9% but reduced over a couple of years to 7%.

Logically, with the squeeze on private company pensions but with the promise of a guaranteed sum, the amount witheld could nw be increased. Maybe not by 3% this year but 1% or 1.5% which would flatten any real pay rise.

[cornish-stormrider]

Biggus- I wasn't implying conspiracy -but the more noise you make about it might change my mind:E

We don't (and didn't) care what anyone above us was paid but feel really strongly that we are not paid what we are worth.

Outside in the real world the engineer is still the same so currently the mob reflects society - just outside we don't have all the other ****e to go with it.

however, an engineer makes very few mistakes, is honest about them and doesn't let things just drift. can you say the same for whatever PSF is called this week? Why should they be happy about having some twerp at a desk paid the same to bimble around making ****ups left and right??

Back to your pay and pensions thread - if it was on a piece of paper you should get it - however if new boys get more than you, TS.

You are doing all right compared to outside, so, I'll take a bottle of glenfiddich off your hands

[The English Passenger]

Stanley Eevil or StopStart......

Any chance of a PM with the datails of the e-mail regarding reserved rights as i fear i may be in the same boat with some holes already leaking water!

Thanks in advance. :ok:

[bob9]

cornish-stormrider, don't you find it slightly ironic that engineers are always on this site telling flyers that they don't respect engineers but it seems that you are quite happy to give aircrew no professional respect at all.:=

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

cornish-stormrider, don't you find it slightly ironic that engineers are always on this site telling flyers that they don't respect engineers but it seems that you are quite happy to give aircrew no professional respect at all.:=

Bob,

Having spent the first 14 years of my time as an engineer and the last 21 as aircrew there is a very simple answer to the conundrum you suggest :ok:

[WPH]

It appears that the report is available now here. (http://www.baff.org.uk/pay/afprb-2010.htm) 2% pay rise.

[VinRouge]

Does anyone here make AVCs for tax efficiency purposes? Especially bearing in mind the theiving chancellor has gone and frozen the bands again this year?

[WPH]

Ok, so it's a little early to start the normal discussion about next year's pay rise (?) now. However, with the Chancellor having already said that Armed Forces pay will be frozen for the next 2 years, I'm wondering how this sits with the AFPRB. I thought that the object of this organisation was to be independant from the government and provide a recommendation on pay and allowances every year.

To my knowledge the governement has only ever rubber stamped their recommendation and has always implemented it. I'm left wondering what is the point of the AFPRB's work this year? Or will they come to the conclusion that pay should be frozen too?

I notice how the PM was keen to point out the increase in OA (which I obviously whole-heartedly support) but doesn't seem to have mentioned the pay freeze, NI and Income Tax increases and reductions in other allowances (HTD being one example?).

[unclenelli]

Surely another saving to be had - Gov says Frozen (or £250 for JRs) and don't bother paying AFPRB for 2 years!

[Chest Poker]

Was there not a Pre-Election pledge to exempt the Armed Forces from the Pay Freeze ?

[Scribbly520]

Sadly, memories fade. The AFPRB reported all through the mid 70s but was over-ridden by the Labour Government, which imposed pay restraint to such an extent that by 1979 pay was 35% or so behind that recommended by the AFPRB. It took a Conservative Government to bring pay up to the recommended level.

Even they did not rubber stamp the AFPRB Reports. Apart from seeking to influence the outcome by briefing on 'affordability' before the process started, in a number of years in the mid 90s, when the budget was well balanced and the economy was doing well, the award was staged. This effectively 'fined' or 'taxed' servicemen for simply being in the service, although I could never get the members of the AFPRB to see it that way. Even Baroness Brenda Dean, who could hardly be expected to be a friend of the Major Government, could not see that withholding pay was a fine or a tax.

So how did the AFPRB do:

1989 Above RPI Rise
1990 Below RPI Rise and staged
1991 Above RPI Rise
1992 Below RPI Rise
1993 Above RPI Rise
1994 Above RPI Rise and staged
1995 Below RPI Rise
1996 Above RPI Rise and staged
1997 Above RPI Rise and staged
1998 Above RPI Rise and staged
1999 Above RPI Rise
2000 Above RPI Rise
2001 Above RPI Rise
2002 Above RPI Rise
2003 Spot on RPI Rise
2004 Below RPI Rise
2005 Above RPI Rise
2006 Below RPI Rise
2007 Below RPI Rise
2008 Below RPI Rise
2009 Below RPI Rise
2010 Above RPI rise

Incidentally, I made my protests about staging to the AFPRB in late 1998, so I may have been listened to, as we have not been staged since. Staging is a particularly mean trick as it produces pension troughs, as, of course, does a 2 year pay freeze.

More worrying in the long term is the insidious effect on pensions of the change from RPI to CPI. I am not sure people have grasped this yet but my calculations are that, based on historical data over the last 10 years, pensions in issue could be lower by 10% at 65, 25% at 85 and 40% at 100 years of age because of the change. If I live as long as my dear old dad, I will face an old age with a pension 75%, and decreasing, of the value I was rightfully expecting (Pensions Increase Act 1971 and Army Pensions Warrant 1977, AFPS 75 etc). If I live to 100, I probably will be too gaga to care. This will also affect the widows, who will get a lower pension as well.

[Gnd]

They will decide how much food, accom and other costs will go up. They may also have a look at how to reduce the 'claims' amount e.g. HDT, MMA. Who knows, they mat double flying pay!!!!! Or add a Blunty bonus?????

There is plenty of work for them to justify their expenses!!!

[Chest Poker]

Was there not a Pre-Election pledge by the Tories to exempt the Armed Forces from the public sector pay freeze ?

[500days2do]

Pay review bodies are as defunked as Unions and Associations at times like these. A flat rate 2%/3% or what ever doesn't sit well with anyone outside of the public service body. Pay freeze and job cuts within the military are bound to happen...the guys in Afganistan deserve far more...aim it there...I spent 23 years in the RAF watching the detachment dodgers talking up their pension rights whilst sat in the local circuit. After 3 years away I realise now what damage has been done to the services by those within who say one thing but are really only looking after themselves.

5d2d