R22 down near Rockhampton

[Diatryma]

Chopper crash near Rockhampton | Rockhampton News | Local News in Rockhampton | Rockhampton Morning Bulletin (http://www.themorningbulletin.com.au/story/2010/01/18/chopper-crash-near-rockhampton/#print)

A PILOT escaped from the cabin of a helicopter after it crashed on a property 50km west of Rockhampton this morning.

A Queensland Fire and Rescue spokesperson said the pilot was out and uninjured before crews arrived on scene at Evergreen Road near Westwood about 8.20am.

The chopper, a Robinson R22, was only a few metres off the ground when it crash landed.

A Department of Community Safety spokeswoman said the pilot, who was the plane’s sole occupant, reportedly walked away from the accident and would not be transported to hospital.

“Nothing caught fire or anything like that,” she said.

Fire and rescue crews' sprayed foam around the crash site area as a precaution before it was left in the hands of Queensland police just before 10am.


http://media.apnonline.com.au/img/media/images/2010/01/18/chopper18a_fct1024x630x59_t325.jpg


VH-JFG

Ouch.....

Di :uhoh:

[Skittles]

I'm very glad the pilot is safe.

I hope this isn't inappropriate, and apologise if it is judged as such. I would not be asking if there were any casualties of the incident, yet do have a brief question.

From generally meandering around the forum it seems that some posters hold the opinion that R22's are...well...not the safest things on the planet. There have been quotes such as 'you wouldn't get me in one of those' etc.

Do people have genuine concerns or are they just pulling legs?

[Freewheel]

The chopper, a Robinson R22, was only a few metres off the ground when it crash landed.


:hmm:



Aside from the quality journalism above, I'm very pleased to gather from the quotes that nobody has been injured.

[heliboy999]

The R22 is a great little helicopter for buzzing from A to B but it does not have a great margin of power or a margin for error. The smallest mistakes seem to bite people and bite very hard. Its a popular helicopter because its popular with schools around the world, mostly because they are cheap to buy and run. Was never designed for training.

[bolkow]

Well I remember noticing that when it some guys here realised there were actually pilots inside the R22 they were surprised. I think they thought they were radio control or something.:8

[heli-cal]

Actually, the US military did convert an R22 into an unmanned, missile firing drone.

[r_eksa_t]

Both the Robinson R22 & R44 helicopters are very safe and practical for any field they may be used in from training to mustering which this perticular helicopter was used for mustering.

Vh-JFG was a Beta helicopter so yes it had a little less power than the Beta II, although this was not the fault or reson this aircraft crashed.

VH-JFG was following a herd of cattle and a poddy calf fled the herd, pilot banked to chase the calf striking the tail rotor on the ground loss of tail rotor loss of control in any helicopter.

Vh-JFG then toppled over due to inpact on the ground and beat it self to death. pilot escaped uninjured.

R22 helicopters are very safe machine statistics prove this, The R22 helicopters is the most popular helicopter in the world. The only reason people dnt think they want to get into one is for size only.

[[email protected]]

Errr - how does banking the helicopter make the tail rotor hit the ground then?

So, like so many R22 accidents this was pilot error but, just for once, not a problem with the handling qualities -just poor flying.

[bladebanger]

r_eksa_t
I'm sure you have no idea what your on about. The R22 killed more test pilots than any other helicopter. There the statistics.

Crab,
Well said, he sounds like one of your fellow countrymen here on a tourist visa.

Banger

[Gaseous]

The only reason people dnt think they want to get into one is for size only.

Not true. I wont fly an R22 anymore because I think I have a better chance of not dying if I fly something else. I trained in R22 and have hundreds of hours in them. They are less forgiving of shortcomings in the nut holding the cyclic than other types.

[md 600 driver]

i lent a bit of space to a 22 owner while they were up our neck of the woods, when it was there parked next to 2 gazelles a non flyer came in we told him it was a remote control helicopter that we worked from the gazelles i thought he had twigged we were having him on, but later that night he was heard in the pub explaining about the half sized remote control helicopter you could put 2 passengers in for sightseeing or police work

hey ho

[mustering guru]

My 2 cents on Franks 22....

Spent over 6500 hard hours in them mustering/shooting and other relevant Australian bush tasks and I was never let down or did I ever feel unsafe. Even when operating over gross weight at crazy DA's. If maintained by good engineers and you do a good pre flight that machine will keep on going very honestly. I have friends that have over 15,000 hrs in them and they will say the same as me.

Great machine, very reliable, very safe, and lots of fun if flown correctly.

MG

[Brian Abraham]

Even when operating over gross weight
Since we are talking R22/R44 you may wish to read these reports and reconsider the wisdom of doing so.

http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/779235/ao-2007-046.pdf

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2006/AAIR/pdf/aair200600979_001.pdf

[rotaryman]

Great machine, very reliable, very safe, and lots of fun if flown correctly

I agree with Mustering Guru, The only problem with the R22 as with most aircraft is the monkey driving it..:ok:

This one is a clear case of Pilot Error.. Glad he walked away and lives to fly another day..:D

[Drumpump]

Well said Guru!

[gulliBell]

I didn't realize it was possible to gross weight out an R22, after-all it's only got 2 seats :confused: I mean, how heavy do both occupants need to be to overload an R22? Or are we talking about, in hot conditions you can overload an R22 with just 2 occupants due to performance limitations. Not that I fly an R22, or would wish to, I ask these questions only out of curiosity.

EDIT: Now I understand, I have since read the AI reports linked in Brian Abrahams post. Particularly the more recent Doongan Station WA one. Makes you wonder what the pilot must have been thinking at the time. Fortunately for the passenger he decided to walk.

[md 600 driver]

is there any helicopter you cant gross weight out

[you can allow for big chaps or chapesses full fuel no baggage ]

[Flyting]

this may help you make up your mind...

YouTube - 0-Speed Autorotation from 100-200 feet, R22 helicopter (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jH03stFao4k&feature=player_embedded)

jH03stFao4k

[Coconutty]

Re "Hover Cuts" video -

Is that the new modified version with an extra 2 blades to provide more lift ? :rolleyes:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[r_eksa_t]

No i wouldnt have a clue im just the person that picked the wreck up today.

R22 may have killed more pilots than any other helicopter in the world but thats because the r22 is the most popular helicopter in the world.

its like a car the more there are the more chances there are of a fatality common sense realy.

but when it comes to it the pilot turned to hard close to ground taking out the tail rotor, making the calf he was chasing a very expensive young calf.

[HeliHamo]

"Mustering Guru;

to help us all put your considerable experience into context, what did you learn on, and how many hours didyou have before going on to the R22? Today 04:56"

AIRPOLICE I'm sure i detected a little bit of sarcasm there and even though he will probaly come to his own defence I thought i should let you know that the 6500hrs that MG amassed in an R22 was at the start of his career and that he probaly has quite a few more than that now. Which would include different types of operations in a broad range of aircraft in some of the hardest and remotest parts of the world to fly in!!!

And no I am not the head of his fan club.:8

[[email protected]]

Even when operating over gross weight at crazy DA's.
I thought this was a professional pilots forum - exceeding AuM and DA limits is not remotely professional.:ugh:

[Heliringer]

Sadly Crab this seems to be the norm in the Industry over here and it is deeply entrenched.

[Widewoodenwingswork]

Don't worry Crab. I would be very surprised if many mustering pilots frequent this forum. Most wouldn't know how to work the interweb. You will however find there are a lot of ex-mustering pilots who have gone onto bigger machines (yes, really), where they don't have to push the limits as nearly as often.

[topendtorque]

Yes it’s very easy to over load the R22, any model. With an empty weight of around 392KG’s driver at say 85, full fuel (with aux as they all have) at another 85 it only gives you 60 spare for a pax without junk under the seat. I know of an instructor, musterer who had been checking out a trainee of 110 a few years back. He himself was 110 plus, with fuel pump, 5 litres of water, and the usual 10 to 15 kg under the seats. He was running at about 120% max AUW. I’ve often seen those figures, or worse.

There is no doubt that where most diverge from legislated procedure is in the weight limitations and time recording, or lack of it. Why? I know of people who position three hours and more each way for free, I’ll lay good odds there’s nothing on the MR to reflect it and they easily put others more honest and closer, out of business.

Many have problems being able to do good emergencies out of school and wouldn’t know the correct Manufacturers settings on auto RPM if they fell over them. Mind you a strict audit on most flying schools in this country would reveal the same problem. That's a hand grenade that's well overdue.

The biggest problem is that most of these dudes are not aviators; they most often fell out of a saddle (or a tree) and decided to take on helicopters. In fact many of them did fall out; they would not be what we would recognise as a ‘good ringer’. (Professional stockman of high esteem)

High DA’s Crab; no need to worry about that, it’s par for the course in the hot times here and of course the higher the DA the less chance these mugs have of over boosting.

When the Beta II came out it was most noticeable that many complained of the bright light on the xmons temp bulb. Well I wonder why? The mugs just loaded up and with the magic correlated collective just didn’t take any notice of power that they pulled. Many reckoned that they could pull more because they had it! A Beta II with a bigger engine for performance at high DA has the same power limitations as the Beta.

It’s interesting to note that ATSB are going to do a survey on the failed belts syndrome. I think that what they don’t find will be much more telling than what they do find. ‘Yes yer ‘onor, them sheaves wasn’t worn out when I changed them belts’, and ‘nah, we never overloaded it, ‘onest we didn’t’, and so on. The average belt life in the accident report story is also interesting, 323 hours. I usually get >600 easy, I wonder why?

Frank wants to fix these dudes? Easy, put an automatic cattle prodder in the seat, every time they do something silly, have it go off.

Oh, and rule number 1, never chase a calf, they always run back on themselves. Rule number 2, never pressure cattle too much or the calves will spill, then see rule number 1. And if you can’t manoeuvre an R22 close the ground without hitting the T/R, give up now while you’re still alive.

[Flyting]

that sounds right along the lines of game capture in southern africa...

and they say the Ozzies and the Safers are different...:}

[bellfest]

I'd like a dollar for every time both mustering pilots and R22's have been flogged on this forum!

Here's my 2 cents worth....

There has been a gradual change in the Australian helicopter mustering industry over it's life span and I think it can be broken down into 3 basic categories.
1) In the beginning there were the aviators who learnt to get in behind cattle that had very rarely if at all seen any type of machinery before and many of which had rarely if at all seen a white man before. These 'pioneers' were aviators with a brand new slate in front of them and there were the lucky and clever few that built their own small empires out of a new industry. They weren't necessarily good cattlemen, to an extent they didn't need to be. A lot of the work as previously mentioned was dealing with animals that had extremely little to no handling and capturing them was a whole different ball game. Don't get me wrong, mustering bush cattle is a fine art in itself and that era created many a fine artist in that field.
2) Following the ambition of what they saw came the young men that grew up in that country and had the fortitude to get their ratings and become mustering pilots. This generation, in my opinion were the ideal mix of aviator and ruralist. Thanks to their backgrounds they had sound ability and knowledge in the game and thanks to their predecessors they had sound aviation instruction and standards instilled creating a good mix of animal husbandry and airmanship. Still in the days of some very 'loose' regulation their accountability and adherence to the rules weren't exactly down the line but such is that industry at that time. These guys intimately understood their machines and flew to a very high standard and though be it substantially unregulated. In my opinion the best mustering pilots to this day were bred in this era.
3) Thanks to the development of the beef industry and largely to the availability and cost of the R22, modern days see it that there are almost more R22's inn the north of Australia then there is tray back Toyota's! A huge trend of self regulated head stockmen, managers with their own helicopters doing their own work without the crucial support of good quality and experienced aviators to mentor them to a standard of safety that would see the industry today a much safer place. Their ability to handle stock is a large factor in the outcome of their task but their ability to aviate is a large factor in the outcome of safety and that is what is missing.

As I said, just my 2 cents worth. Though I may have dribbled on a little more than that.

Widewoodenwingswork.... I think you'll find that there many mustering pilots out there very computer and internet literate and you're being a bit unfair old son. The mustering industry has produced some excellent pilots and is largely responsible for the growth of the helicopter industry in Australia. Anyone who has a bad word to say about these guys, and the R22 for that matter should take the time to look into the industry a little more.....

In my opinion, anyone that hasn't been over max gross here and there and tested the limits of their machine has not done any real flying and are best suited to where they are. It's part of the industry when you are actually 'working'! That covers many more sectors than the mustering industry. I have.. In my opinion I have never abused a helicopter and I have been in situations where I have needed to get the best out of my machine for a pile of different reasons and scenarios... I've seen people abuse machinery inside the limits just by being rough handlers and people nurse machinery without no dramas on the high side of it's limits by being good smooth operators. Rules were made for the guidance of wise men and blind obedience of idiots!

[heliduck]

A brief comment on your point 1, bellfest. In the beginning there was ex military pilots travelling the country in B47's trying to convince cocky's that helicopters were the way of the future. Years later, once helicopter mustering was well established, ringers started getting there licence & took over from the ex military pilots. Maybe put this as a prelude to your point 1.

[bellfest]

Thanks heliduck..... Most importantly I like to fly the flag for the established mustering company's and those that have passed through or are still in the mustering game and doing it in a safe, trained and aviation orientated manner. Australia's helicopter industry would not have the depth and quality that it has without it.......

Like anyone else who has had the good fortune of being involved in one or more good mustering operations I consider myself fortunate for my background and experience.

Participating in a variety of different roles since then I still consider the practices of a well run mustering company as good and at times better than any of the 'big' professional company's who possess operations, procedures and safety management system manuals stacked so high that an R22 couldn't lift them off the ground!

[mustering guru]

Airpolice-

I did all my training on the R22 and then went on to go mustering in the machine for about 6 years accident and incident free. Since then have moved on to bigger and better things. I will say mustering would have to be the best training ground for any up coming pilot, everyday is different.

Bellfest-

Well said mate spot on!

[zip]

It goes without saying that the best selling helicopter in the world will have more flying hours than any other machine. The R22 and R44 are both excellent machines and I have flown both for 15 years. Really these negative comments are simply sour grapes.
Not all of us can fly Bell, Augusta etc - The Robinson has opened up helicopter flying to the masses and Frank deserves credit for what he has achieved.
Look forward to the R66 .....