Singapore Cargo Rumours (early 2010)

[Heracles]

PPRuNe is a great forum for news and rumours,, no harm in a pure rumour/speculation thread.
We can all throw ideas against the wall and see what sticks.

For purposes of this thread, let's confine ourselves to the Cargo side only. And it would be infinatly more interesting if we label what is KNOWN,, what is HEARD,, and what is SURMISED. This should be fun !!!!

I'll start:
KNOWN: SFL is moving out of the desert (VCV) to rejoin the flock, after a long rest. She should arrive SIN about Jan 24.
HEARD: SFA and SFB are supposed to go "back to thier owners", and soon. Who are the "owners"?
HEARD: SFF and SFN are also in play.
HEARD: SFA and SFB are going to the little sister airline who is PVG based,, no saying how great that wall may be.....
HEARD: A US based bottom feeder is convinced that they are getting 2 SQC -400's.
HEARD: SQC is no longer terminating all contracts with ex-pat capts.
HEARD: The mainline pax -400 (SML??) slated for BCF conversion is still on hold.
SURMISE: Known recovery of 1 aircraft against the loss of 2-4 aircraft, SQ is squeezing SQC even more than in the past.
SURMISE: SQ's thinking is along the same line as DL's in that they are not going to deal with cargo. But it's easier to park 7 classics than to sell a fleet of -400's.

KNOWN: Ths industry is so fluid it's like an amusement ride,, only not amusing.

Let's have some fun with this,,
Cheers,, Heracles

[Left Coaster]

Ok, sign me up! Looking forward to following along...:}

[leewan]

SFL is back. Saw it yesterday. It's now in the hangar.

[Heracles]

While it's great to see SFL back we still end up one short with SFA and SFB reportedly to be off the property but end of March10. Also, ATDB.org is showing SFF and SFN as "data embargoed" which in the past means standby for changes. I'd be really interested if my airline were even jokingly concidering dumping 1/4 th of my fleet.
Cheers

[fatbus]

How many crew were let go at SingCargo and how many do you think would still come back?

[Gear Down and Locked]

SFA and B owned by "Banc of America" leasing corp (no typo there in the spelling), a subsidiary of Bank of America. office murmurs say they are leaving 1st quarter of this year.

[Captain Oryx]

How many crew were let go at SingCargo and how many do you think would still come back?

1) None, and:

2) NO!!!:ok:

[Heracles]

Known: SFA and SFB are owned is you discribe, BanC of America,, but with an IRELAND address,,interesting.
Still no news or rumours on SFF and SFN? Can't wait to see thier info.
Heard: Evergreen (EZ not BR) is convinced they are getting two 744F's from SQC at the end of March 2010.
Another thought, with the A380s coming online, will SQ be excess a few 777's, and might they migrate to SQC?
Cheers

[fatbus]

OK I'll re phase- How many pilots took the 30 month LOA forces or otherwise and out of those how many coming back? Also how expats that did not get contract renewed would still consider coming back. I know of 2 that are not and would not, moved on to something better.

[expat400]

Capt Oryx is 50 % correct.

25 Captains and FO:s had their contract prematurely terminated February 9 2009. On top of that some FO:s went to Qatar and all cadets' training were put on hold.

The laid off pilots were all on leave of abscence from SAS and are not likely to return to Cargo since they then would have to resign from SAS.

[leewan]

SFA and SFB are the oldest in SQC's a/c stable. They should be close to 16 years now. A vintage by SQ's standard. Not sure whether SQC follows the parents' standard in fleet renewal.

The 744s from SIA were planned way back in 06, but SQC backed out. Some of the rumuors then were drop in demand then and the lack of nose cargo doors in the converted freighters.

ith the A380s coming online, will SQ be excess a few 777's, and might they migrate to SQC?

Currently, Boeing has no freighter conversion kits for the B777. I don't think they will make one anytime soon as it will cannibalize their factory made B777Fs.

[Captain Oryx]

Capt Oryx is 50 % correct.

25 Captains and FO:s had their contract prematurely terminated February 9 2009. On top of that some FO:s went to Qatar and all cadets' training were put on hold.

The laid off pilots were all on leave of abscence from SAS and are not likely to return to Cargo since they then would have to resign from SAS.

OOPS!

Please accept my apologies. I forgot about the SAS termination.

[etops777]

Will SQC be hiring anytime in the year or 2?

[Heracles]

leewan,
If your theory holds, then it doesn't bode well for SFJ, SFG, or SFD; all of which are, by MSN, senior to SFA and SFB.
I rather think that this trade out, or turn over is more driven by who actually owns the ships combined with who wants to stay in the cargo airlift game and who wants out. I also know that Evergreen BUYS aircraft it's never leased an aircraft to my knowledge. Could be an important clue,,perhaps BanC of America wants out of the freighter leasing game and the attrition ends here. In any case, if your paycheck is signed "SQC", best you keep a pulse on ebb and flow of the tin.
Cheers

[leewan]

leewan,
If your theory holds, then it doesn't bode well for SFJ, SFG, or SFD; all of which are, by MSN, senior to SFA and SFB.
I rather think that this trade out, or turn over is more driven by who actually owns the ships combined with who wants to stay in the cargo airlift game and who wants out. I also know that Evergreen BUYS aircraft it's never leased an aircraft to my knowledge. Could be an important clue,,perhaps BanC of America wants out of the freighter leasing game and the attrition ends here. In any case, if your paycheck is signed "SQC", best you keep a pulse on ebb and flow of the tin.
Cheers

SFA and SFB are the oldest B744Fs in SQC's a/c stable. The MSN number has no relevance to the a/c's age. It's the LN number. Both SFA and SFB are owned by BanC of America, which ironically is not based in the US. AFAIK, only SFJ, SFL, SFO and SFP are wholly owned by SQC.
Here's the list:
Singapore Airlines Fleet of B747 (Active) - Airfleets (http://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/Singapore%20Airlines-active-b747.htm)

And my paycheck is not from SQC. I would strongly advise you to get your facts right or at least validate those facts before accusing others of misleading facts.

Peace Out

[Heracles]

leewan,
I did NOT mean to minimize your opinion or knowledge,,I was simply hoping to spur any of the lurking observers to add to the THEORY "brainstorm". You are quite right,, after 16 odd years no-one cares which ship is 6 weeks older than the next, which one first flew on thursday as opposed to the following monday,,etc.,, and that was my point. This is NOT about the age of the SQC fleet, more about who actually owns the ships.
Perhaps some of the "bigger players" are deciding SQC's future path. "They are my toys and I'll do as I damned please with them". Or the stockholders want performance in THIS quarter? Best way?,, SELL a few 744's, instant ink in the black column, but at what cost? The "BanC of America addressed in Ireland" thing is juicy though.
FWIW,, I do know that there was no, as yet approved, modification for a 777BCF; and for the foreseeable future no way Boeing will encourage that. It would directly compete with the 777F and the 747-8. I sandbaged that.

This forum, as I understand it, is a RUMOUR NETWORK,,(see post #1,line #1) my hopes are that by combining enough rumours, those concerned can divine a few nuggets of fact. Of course, this theory falls short if no-one plays.
Cheers

[leewan]

Heracles,
The last post may have come across as a tad too hostile as I read your post previous to that as such. But i do agree with you that this forum is for rumors and everyone shall be free to post their opinions and hearsays.

Now back to business. As I understand from ur previous posts, the leasing corporation for SFA and SFB, BoA, wishes to end their lease agreement and take back the a/c. But in a lease agreement, the bank is usually the beneficiary in the relationship as it gets a steady income irregardless of the a/c's usage.( Could be wrong here) Could it be that SQC did its financial sums and realised it's cheaper to operate its wholly owned a/c rather than leased a/cs and is starting to end the leasing agreements of such a/c. After all, they spent most of the year on ground. The age of the a/cs could be an additional factor in ending their agreements.

Or BoA found an airline which was willing to pay more for the leases and it decided not to renew the lease contract. The Financial Year for SQC is ending soon, and as you said, "innovative" measures come into play to minimize the red inks.

Just my two cents.

[Gear Down and Locked]

Article about the 777BCF here (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/09/18/332451/boeing-eyes-2010-launch-of-777-converted-freighter.html)

Doesn't look like it carries a lot very far, but maybe that might work out for SQC.

[Heracles]

WOW, Do I look stupid. Still, the 777F appears to the layman to compare quite reasonably with the 744F; very interesting.

[Gear Down and Locked]

Hey Heracles,

Could the 2 -400s going to that US carrier be BCFs that were meant to come to SQC from SIA?

[Heracles]

A valid theory, but my contacts at EZ are preparing for two 744BCF's from AF and two 744F's from "unknown"; plus the time-frames are almost exact. I'd still love to hear any "other" rumors about SFF and SFN.....
--Cheers

[Gear Down and Locked]

Just heard in the crew lounge that SQC will begin recruitment of DECs next month. Maybe those planes will be sale and leaseback?

Wouldn't make sense to hire guys if they were going to cut the fleet further - but then again that's exactly what happened in 08/09 resulting in the SAS guys having to leave so who knows really.

ATB

[Heracles]

I'm not deep in "the know", but my gut says no. The timing is all wrong and my intell on EZ is that they are getting 2 BCFs from AF and 2 744F's from SQC. But again; this is heard, not known.

[Heracles]

The latest in this rumour-quest:
HEARD: Evergreen(EZ) now expecting only one -400,, no intel as to 744F or BCF.

Gotta love the rumour mill.
Cheers

[Arkdriver744]

Known. DEC interviews happening this week. :)

Heard. Command courses for 2 F/Os are nowback on.:) It should have been 3.:=

Heard. Second Officer training now back on again.:)

[Captain Oryx]

Arkdriver,

DEC interviews, are they Capts. who left last year or new DECs?

F/O conversion, local or expat?

[Arkdriver744]

Oryx, I think the DECs are mainly chaps that were first interviewed a year or so ago and were told they were successful, only for the company to cease recruitment.

I dont think many capts who left last year would be too keen on returning.

Commands are expats who have been on local terms for a while I think.

[zekeigo]

I dont think many capts who left last year would be too keen on returning.

You got that right Arkdriver744…
Some of the reasons:
No more Bonuses
No more MVC
Unstable housing allowances
Unstable and inhuman roster
Position on long haul flights on Economy class seated by the toilet
; and Ground transport in a Van right after these long flights, (sometimes more than 4 hours ride) (Ground transport is not considered duty time!!!)
Minimum rest in almost all stations
Inexistence of staff travel (ID 75 is a joke)
Being an instructor without being paid for it (young FO’s with as low as 500 hrs seated on the right seat of a Jumbo jet)
The event with the SAS guys, regrettable :=
Cost of living and taxes in Singapore are too high
Someone can continue from here,,,
Good luck
Z

[leewan]

Some of the reasons:
No more Bonuses
No more MVC
Unstable housing allowances
Unstable and inhuman roster
Position on long haul flights on Economy class seated by the toilet
; and Ground transport in a Van right after these long flights, (sometimes more than 4 hours ride) (Ground transport is not considered duty time!!!)
Minimum rest in almost all stations
Inexistence of staff travel (ID 75 is a joke)
Being an instructor without being paid for it (young FO’s with as low as 500 hrs seated on the right seat of a Jumbo jet)
The event with the SAS guys, regrettable :=
Cost of living and taxes in Singapore are too high
Someone can continue from here,,,

Pardon me, but are these conditions for pilots on the expat terms or for the locals as well ?

[ArkPilot]

Allow me;

It's not expat v. local pilots. It's contract v. local terms.

Main difference, local terms do not contain housing allowance and children's education allowance. For F/O's local terms are the only way to upgrade.

My understanding, new hire DEC's are hired on LOCAL terms only. Kind of like a "B" scale.

Now, on to zekeigo's accusations;

"No more bonuses"- strictly a function of profits, ie. no profit, no bonus.

"No more MVC"- It was inserted post SARS for use by mgt. check with ALPA-s regarding T&C.

"Unstable housing allowances"- Read your contract, it says that the housing allowance is to be adjusted to rflect changes in market. I won't comment on the speed with which it went up/down.

"Unstable and inhuman roster"- Unstable, yes, welcome to the world of the freight dog. Inhuman (the most misused term on PPrune). Gimme a break! you have no clue!:yuk:

"Position on long haul flights on(I think you mean "in") economy class seated by the toilet"- Ya gotta sit somewhere during positioning!

"; and Ground transport in a Van right after these long flights (sometimes more than 4 hours ride) At least your not by the toilet!:hmm:(Ground transport is not considered duty time!!!) Always been that way, you are NOT main fleet!

"Minimum rest in almost all stations"- Minimum rest is minimum LEGAL rest. It is not a violation of work rules(what work rules?)

"Inexistance of staff travel (ID75 is a joke)"- You don't like travel on the freighter?;)

"Being an instructor without being paid for it (young F/O's with as low as 500 hours seated in the right seat of a Jumbo jet)"- Part of being a Captain at SQC.

"The event with the SAS guys, regrettable :=- It wasn't regrettable, it was stupid!!!:sad:

"Cost of living and taxes in Singapore are too high"- They are not too high, the compensation package is too low!:eek:

[zekeigo]

Arkpilot,
Good points and my apologies for the misprint,
Please, I made no accusations; it is just an eye opener before someone signs the dotted line.
Most of this is not clear stated on the contract and one can be surprised afterwards, that’s the reason for the Bond.:bored:
Re Roster, the majority of professional pilots agree that to change a 10 days COP into a 16 days trip while you’re out there disregarding your days off might not be inhuman, but unfair at least.
You don't like travel on the freighter?;) My family doesn’t.:(
Fly safe
Z

[a345xxx]

Good post Ark Pilot...an objective post on PPRUNE!!!

[zekeigo]

Block hours in SIAC is a total mess, one needs to be lucky (according to roster office) to have decent block hours every month. While some fortunate guys fly 90 hours (candies??), most of the rest fly around 30/40 hours. If it’s all about money, someone is taking the bigger part of the cake.
Re Minimum rest doesn’t mean high block hours, means unproductive roster planning turning one’s life into a rollercoaster. Few years ago block hours was low and positioning hours was high, there is no much change now as they don’t know the meaning of equity.
Travel on the freighter is also something curious. Only the pilots can do it, no family allowed, and the system is linked to SIA mainline staff travel. With the constant roster and flight schedule changes guess what happens with your travel arrangements!!! The money invested to buy your ticket is returned to you after a couple of months without interest.
ALPA-S Cargo is there only for the locals, expats are left in limbo.
"Unstable and inhuman roster"- Unstable, yes, welcome to the world of the freight dog. Inhuman (the most misused term on PPRuNe). Gimme a break! you have no clue!
This is a good example of what kind of treatment you receive in Singapore. Re “welcome to the world of the freight dog”, you have no clue how an organized outfit works, look outside your bubble and you’ll see.
PPRUNE is here to help pilots make informed decisions, I am sorry for those of you trying to hide or masquerade facts.:yuk:
Z

[slayerdude]

ALPA-S Cargo is there only for the locals, expats are left in limbo


ALPA-S indeed is there for local term pilots being long term non-contract employees. However expats(contract pilots) are also represented in ALPA-S as associate members with no voting powers. However whatever deal (good or bad) brokered by ALPA-S is enjoyed by the entire co-hort. Hence statement is untrue. This also allpies to local term non-members.

[Arkdriver744]

Not entirely correct Slayer.

Where local and expat interests coincide then your statement is true. But ALPA S Cargo has actively worked against the interests of the expatriate worforce on occasions so as to try to protect local interests - if my information is correct.

[GHOSTRIDER.ASIA]

siac Is The Best Pay Check !
Roster Is Almost Perfect !! ( You Can Have Good Plans With The Family )
Id 75 Is Amazing !
Cops Are Not So Long And They Never Change !
Alpa-s Really Takes Care Of The Expat Pilots !
The Health Plan For You And Your Family Is The Best !
The House Allowance Is Enough To Rent A Very Good Place In Sin....you Do Not Have To Put An Extra Cent !
I Am Flying An Average Of 35 Hours Month..and Siac Is Hiring New Captains !


wake Up Mate !!!! Or
Keep On Dreaming Your Dreams...........

[overmars]

Man, I hate it having to listen to expat pilots whinge and complain about SIAC, and when their contract is up, all of a sudden, SIAC is the best company in the world and no, they suddenly do not want to leave.

Time to nut up or shut up.

[winglet_fever]

There is no perfect job. Those in Korean are lonely in and out of flight deck. Those in middle east, family don't want to be there. Those in China can't leave as and when they want to. Those in India don't enjoy being there. Those that want to be in huge well paying airlines can't get in. Those that loved their previous company can't go back because they have folded.

Please, do leave when time is up if the entire package you guys are getting out of Singapore isn't palatable to you and your family. Save your talk and our ears. Action it. Meanwhile, think like the Italians. Relax a little and enjoy the good parts of what there is till contract is up.

i personally enjoy spending 20 days per month with family whilst knowing cash comes out of cash machine on the dot every month. The best part is this, each time i leave for work, i know my family will be safe when i'm physically away.

Its all about where we place our datum....

[ArkPilot]

siac Is The Best Pay Check !
Roster Is Almost Perfect !! ( You Can Have Good Plans With The Family )
Id 75 Is Amazing !
Cops Are Not So Long And They Never Change !
Alpa-s Really Takes Care Of The Expat Pilots !
The Health Plan For You And Your Family Is The Best !
The House Allowance Is Enough To Rent A Very Good Place In Sin....you Do Not Have To Put An Extra Cent !
I Am Flying An Average Of 35 Hours Month..and Siac Is Hiring New Captains !


wake Up Mate !!!! Or
Keep On Dreaming Your Dreams...........

Ghostrider,

I am dreaming my dream, and living it, thank you!

I find it interesting that you and others, had an opportunity last year to depart, scott free, for greener pastures. Not only did you not leave, you sit and whine about conditions that existed last year.

Sounds like your wish is to complain more than it is to fly!:ugh:

[Arkdriver744]

Six Direct entry captains to start 1st April. At least one of them is likely to be from the poorly treated bunch that lost their jobs in Singapore last year. Imagine how the company may choose to view that.

[protect essential]

what is the mandatory retirement age in SIN (CAAS) now?

thanks!

[Gear Down and Locked]

The max licensing age is 65.

The national retirement age is 62. After 60, you get a 10% paycut from your last drawn. after 62, you go to the bottom of the scale and lose some of what little benefits there are.

[Phantom Driver]

According to IATA, cargo demand up 25%. Expecting business back to normal within 3 months. "Happy Days are here again!":ok:

[leewan]

9V-SFB is off to Evergreen Int as N491EV.
Evergreen Int N491EV (Boeing 747) (Ex 9V-SFB ) - Airfleets (http://www.airfleets.net/ficheapp/plane-b747-26561.htm)

[Gear Down and Locked]

is that the one that was parked on the east remote bays a few days ago?

[leewan]

is that the one that was parked on the east remote bays a few days ago?

No idea, but I remember seeing a B747 in Evergreen Intl colours in the hangar a few days ago and suspect that this could be the one.

On the bigger picture, does anyone think SQ would sell off its cargo division in the near future just as JAL did with its cargo division ? After all, they have not been profitable the past few quarters and have brought along unwanted legal wrangle. The way I see it, the subsidiaries are an insurance for SIA against rainy periods for them to raise cash when they are having a bad time. They sold off SATS to raise cash when they foresaw the red ink coming. What are your views ?

[Gear Down and Locked]

It appears SQC are recruiting DECs again. To replace those trying to get out? Hear quite a few guys are in the process of leaving?

[Arkdriver744]

Lots of 5 year contracts coming to an end in the next few months. No service increment since 2008, MVC cut by 100% for over a year, no profit share at all in 2010 and inflation in Singapore steadily on the rise. What do they expect?

[firepoint]

Is there any B744BCF servering for SQ Cargo now? What I heard is that SQ Cargo will not use such converted freighter.
Is there any flight crew back to SQ or SQ Cargo from Great Wall?

[myknobblyknees]

The money doesnt look good
$10k sgd + $5k allowances pcm local terms?

[Metro man]

The money doesnt look good
$10k sgd + $5k allowances pcm local terms?

Can you post the figures for Captains ?

[alwaysflying]

The latest Flt Int'l has the ad, pl would some one out there share their experience, particularly in terms of

Total Monthly Remuneration & its break down, MVC, per diem, flying pay, Avg Bonus over last 5 yrs etc.

It appears the monthly flying hours are very less in the region of 40 to 50, how many days out a month does it translate to ?

With such low flying why are they hiring ? Any expansion plans ? Any other types expected ?

In general the expenses in Singapore for a family of four with 2 School going kids

I know life in Singapore is great compared to the ME, but is the money sufficient for it ?

Has the end of contract bonus been scrapped ?

Any feedback would be appreciated...........

[Patty747400]

When I look at the numbers I recall that they are almost the same as 2005. Unfortunately everything is 30 % more expensive in Singapore now...

Numbers for a family with two children:

Expect to pay around 10000 SGD per month for apartment, maid, car, school fees on top of allowance, utilities and standard household costs. If you are one of those not allowing yourself or your family any joy in life you might do with 7000 but don't be surprised if your wife goes home.

Your total salary will be 18-19000 per month. Taxes around 10 % for a new comer to Singapore.

Setting up as non rated you will need to bring around 80-90000 SGD to cover your costs before you start making any money (training bond, deposits for rent, schools paid in advance etc).

Singapore is a great place to live and SQ Cargo a good company to work for.

[alwaysflying]

Thanks Patty ! From what I understand by your post one can expect to make about 18-19k & spend about 10k so that sounds like a saving of 8-9k which is pretty good. Or am I missing something ??

Would appreciate if you could let me know why one would need 80-90 k S$ as set up costs ?

Also for a non type rated what do they draw until fully operational & how much time do they take to be fully ops ?

Any idea how many DEC's r they looking for ? & joining dates ?

[Patty747400]

18-19 minus tax will give you 16-17. Take away the 10 and you have 6-7 left.

Add in the occasional restaurant visits, buying clothes, servicing the car, your expenses down the line flying, kids birthday parties, paying for travel home and on vacations etc

Singapore is a great place but it's also expensive. If you manage to save anything it's a bonus.

Setting up:

Bond 55000
School fee around 25000 (international school) for the first term including registration fee (two children). You will get 16800 back from the company but only a month later.
Two months rent for deposit plus first month rent 12-15000
Deposit for utilities, telephone 1000

During training you make about 12500. Expect about 4 months until fully operational.

Have no clue how many they need.

[Arkdriver744]

SIA Cargo has not paid MVC for over a year and is dragging its heels in negotiations with ALPA S over service increments which were last paid in 2008. The formula for calculating profit share was redefined 2 years ago which means the average profit share figure for the past 5 years is meaningless. This year there was nil profit share. Last year there was 2 weeks. Local contracts and flexi time captains are the future here and everything is done to slash costs. SIN is an increasingly expensive place to live and if you have children of school age and/or a mortgage to pay back home you will find life very difficult.

The number of captains leaving at the end of their 5 year contracts tells the real story. SIA Cargo is morphing into a very low cost operation with all the associated downward pressure on terms and conditions.

My advice would be to stay away.

[Droste]

I know SIA Cargo recruits DEC.

May I know does SIA Cargo recruit second officer? Or all the while they have no second officer recruitment at all.

I wrote an email to Ops HR Monica few weeks ago, no reply from her. :hmm:

[gottofly]

what is the min req for dec at SIA cargo and where to apply?dont see anything on their website.
thanks

[pacificgypsy]

Singapore Airlines Cargo requires B747-400 Captains

View Employer Vacancies
Job Role: Captain
Job Hours: Full-Time
Location: Singapore
Job Position: Permanent
Company: Singapore Airlines Cargo (SIA CARGO)
Salary: MONTHLY BASIC SALARY - S$10,000 when fully operational
Job reference: ‘SIA Cargo’
Posted Date: 05 July 2010 10:56:30
Singapore Airlines Cargo requires B747-400 Captains


CAPTAIN

With Type Rating (Local or Contract Terms) Without Type Rating (Local or Contract Terms)
Applicants should have:

• At least a total of 6000 hours, inclusive of 3000 PIC hours on commercial jets in international operations.
• Current rating with minimum type experience of 1000 PIC hours.

• Basic IT literacy.
• ICAO English Language Proficiency Level 6. Applicants should have:
• At least a total of 6000 hours, inclusive of 3000 PIC hours on commercial jets in international operations.
• Preference for applicants with Glass Cockpit / Flight Management Systems and Wide Body experience.
• Basic IT literacy.
• ICAO English Language Proficiency Level 6.


TRAINING BOND

Pilots without a B744 type rating will be given conversion training, and are required to enter a training bond and provide a bank guarantee for a period of 5 years and 8 months (contract terms) or 3 years and 3 months (local terms).


MONTHLY BASIC SALARY

Captain: S$10,000 when fully operational. Pilots with sufficient relevant current B744 rating experience can expect a higher starting salary than S$10,000.


SERVICE BENEFITS AND ALLOWANCES

Monthly Variable Component: Up to 10% of monthly basic salary.
Annual Wage Supplement: Maximum of one month’s basic salary, at the discretion of the company.

Salary Increment:

Reviewed on an annual basis, depending on the Company’s performance, market norms and other factors.
Profit Sharing Bonus: Payable depending on Company’s and/or SIA Group’s performance.
Out-of-Base Allowance: S$8 per hour from the start to the end of COP.
Flying Allowance: From S$55 per hour.

Annual Leave: 32 calendar days.

Other benefits: Generous medical and dental benefits for employees. Subsidised medical insurance for spouse and children. Discounted travel offered by SIA and SilkAir to SIA Cargo employees and eligible dependants.




Additional Benefits for Contract Terms:

* Housing Allowance: S$3,900 per month if married and S$3,550 per month if single.
* Child Education Assistance: Up to S$1,400 per month for each child for a maximum of 2 children studying in a recognized school in Singapore.
Return to Home Base Travel: Free firm ticket on SIA services to home base or nearest SIA destination (if home base is off-line) for employee and eligible dependants once a year.

* Amounts reviewed on a yearly basis


TENURE

Local Terms: No stipulated period. Long-term employment expected till the relevant retirement age in Singapore.

Contract Terms: Offer is for contracts of up to 5 years with prospects for extension.

APPLICATION

Complete and submit a copy of our application form together with copies of supporting documents. The application form is available from the Singapore Airlines Cargo website Welcome to SIA Cargo (http://www.siacargo.com).

Submission by e-mail: (go to apply now)


Submission by hard copy:

Flight Operations Manager (Human Resource)
Singapore Airlines Cargo Pte Ltd
(See contact details)


Please indicate ‘SIA Cargo’ and position on the top left-hand corner of the envelope.

Preference will be given to Rated pilots.

[pacificgypsy]

SIA, SIACargo, and Silk Air obtain their F/O's from the communal pool of internally trained S/O's.

[Droste]

SIA, SIACargo, and Silk Air obtain their F/O's from the communal pool of internally trained S/O's.

Do you mean, the organisation get their First Officer from internally trained Second Officer? If that's the case, can I say, SIA, SIA Cargo and Silk Air will not be doing First Officer recruitment at all?

I wonder do SIA Cargo do Second Officer recruitment? If yes, I will appreciate if somebody can help me assess my qualification first to see whether do SIA Cargo consider my application or not. Kindly private message me.[<- highlight entire paragraph to see next question] :(

[pacificgypsy]

yes ....second officers are hired by SIA and trained through the Singapore Flying College and then assigned to SIA, SIACargo or Silk Air for further training as First Officers. The order of preference is to recruit Singaporean or Singapore permanent residents, Malaysians or Indians.

[Droste]

The order of preference is to recruit Singaporean or Singapore permanent residents, Malaysians or Indians.
I understand this very well. ;)

yes ....second officers are hired by SIA and trained through the Singapore Flying College and then assigned to SIA, SIACargo or Silk Air for further training as First Officers.
I am aware for those who have completed SIA cadetship, will be promoted to Second Officer.

However, my next question is, has SIA hired second officers before? Have they been doing this recruitment all the while or recently?

[pacificgypsy]

It's ongoing recruitment for cadets...and second officers come from the cadet ranks.

[Droste]

pacificgypsy, kindly check pm.

[FMGCS]

They do hire Cadets/Second Officers. However, you still need to do some of the training with other cadets. Like a Learjet, or now Mustang, program in Australia. and then the full simulator training in Singapore. I have seen guys with a CPL and 500 hrs been doing this.

Cadet pilots become second officers after their Simulator training. Then go for line training and when completed, they have 2 bars and are fully qualified to operate from the right seat as a First Officer.

@Droste; SIA, SQC and SLK don't have second officers like you have in KLM and/or other airlines. Guys with 2 bars, in KLM called "coco's", are in SIA first officers.

Hope this clarifies your question regarding the hiring. Yes they hire guys with some flying experience, but they always become a Cadet first and then Second Officer and then First Officer.

[autobrakes3]

And if I may add, Cadets get paid $500 a month according to the new contract terms from what i hear. After factoring in the waiting time, from a cadet to second officer (if you join with a CPL) takes about 24-25 months. Lets not forget a SO is still under training, so theres no productivity allowance!

[Droste]

They do hire Cadets/Second Officers. However, you still need to do some of the training with other cadets. Like a Learjet, or now Mustang, program in Australia. and then the full simulator training in Singapore. I have seen guys with a CPL and 500 hrs been doing this.

Hope this clarifies your question regarding the hiring. Yes they hire guys with some flying experience, but they always become a Cadet first and then Second Officer and then First Officer.
Now, I understand alot better. ;)

And if I may add, Cadets get paid $500 a month according to the new contract terms from what i hear. After factoring in the waiting time, from a cadet to second officer (if you join with a CPL) takes about 24-25 months. Lets not forget a SO is still under training, so theres no productivity allowance!
24months x $500 = $12,000 :(

[Arabian Mustang]

Cadets get paid $500 a month according to the new contract terms from what i hear.

That maybe the starting pay. I believe, the pay goes up as you progress through your training.

[Gear Down and Locked]

Quote:
Cadets get paid $500 a month according to the new contract terms from what i hear.
That maybe the starting pay. I believe, the pay goes up as you progress through your training.The pay goes up to 2200, for the next 18-24 months. If you have to rent, it will be really tough. To rent single room in a HDB is around 400-500 before utilities. Small apartments go for upwards of 2.5k.

[Droste]

That maybe the starting pay. I believe, the pay goes up as you progress through your training.
I see.

The pay goes up to 2200, for the next 18-24 months. If you have to rent, it will be really tough. To rent single room in a HDB is around 400-500 before utilities. Small apartments go for upwards of 2.5k.
Good info.

I guess I will consider to apply when there is vacancy or job opening in future.

They will feel funny with the licence I am holding now and I am pretty sure that I do not have to sit for any CAAS papers except their Air law :hmm: provided they consider my application

[Patty747400]

To alwaysflying

Another heads up for you.

I see that you're in the ME now. Sure, Singapore as a city beats the desert any time but remember that it's a contract job. If your contract is up for renewal and times are bad you're out. Imagine how that will feel for your family if they have settled here. During the recession there were guys who had worked with SQ for almost twenty years who didn't get their contract renewed.

In that respect you guys in the desert are safer with your open ended contracts.

I'm not saying you shouldn't come but I want to give you the info as it is.

[Arkdriver744]

Thats good advice Patty

Too much of the overall package depends on flying a lot of hours and getting a good profit share. And that only turns a poor package into a mediocre one. No annual increment since 2008, no profit share and loss of MVC for over a year is really hurting. And as for child education allowance and medical benefits, just make sure you read the fine print very carefully. They will not cover what you might reasonably expect. Schools and medical care are very expensive. So is private health insurance for a family with children.

SIA Cargo is all about low cost and downward pressure on terms and conditions If your contract is due for renewal at the wrong time you are out. Ask the 25 pilots who were called to a meeting just over a year ago and told to leave their id cards and other company admin behind on their way out as they had 2 weeks to leave Singapore.

There is also the bank guarantee for the non typed pilots to consider which makes resignation in the first 5 years a very expensive option.

There are better jobs out there.

[Patty747400]

Well, Flyingtheline, if they were highly experienced they could be upgraded and you and I wouldn't have a job. It's our experience they need and are paying for. I just wish they could at least keep up with the inflation in Singapore.

[alwaysflying]

Thanks once again Patty !

I am currently gathering info about the SQC & its great that people like you help to put the pros & cons in perspective.Having tried to put together the details below, pl could people confirm or correct.....

Financials

At this point still am not clear about the total emoluments, as per the ad its 10 k basic, plus 6.7k ( Housing & 2 kids Education ), Am I currect in assuming about 5 k in terms of flying allowance & per diem ?

That totals about 21.7 k, giving close to 20k after taxes ! The MVC/13th month salary/ Profit Sharing would all be extra if paid.

Lifestyle

As one would expect Cargo ops would probably be not an easy life, Legally SQC is to give 6 days off per month, but with flying between 45-50 hrs one can expect about 15 days off each month ! Fixed Rosters for 3 months, I do not know if there is any sort of bidding ?

Progression

Highly unlikely to get any other aircraft types for now. Progression to training & Management is highly restrictive.

Benefits

Not much known about Loss of Licence/Life Insurance/Medica ??

Once a yr Annual Leave Ticket only on SQ network.. 32 days Annual Leave.
Do not know if this can be taken in parts, any travel days attached,or if there is any other short leave throughout the year.

Travel Benefits other that the Annual Leave Ticket not known/ not a member of ZED ticketing !

Is one allowed to leave Singapore on Days Off ( or only during the 6 mandated days off ), basically can one take short vaccations close by without eating into the annual leave ?

Lastly I know its a contract job for 5 yrs with possible no extension, currently see a lot of 744 openings, so worst case there are other jobs out there !

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

[Patty747400]

Kids education is not a recurrent remuneration. It's paid towards your receipt and it covers about 75 % of the cost.
5 K is correct for productivity and per diem.
Expect 19 K per month and when you add the 13 month you can more or less plan your life on 20 K per month on average. A good idea is to save 2000 of these for your taxes.

So you'll end up with 18000 to spend. If you're lucky there might be a bonus next year but don't count on it.

Unfortunately 40-50 hours does not mean 15 days at home. There are many COP:s where half of the flying is unpaid positioning. You can also end up with a five day layover in some places. 10 day trips with 15 hours flying is not uncommon. Expect 12-13 days at home on average with the occasional 8 day months as well.

Fixed rosters for three month? Where did you get that from? Your roster is not fixed for three minutes! Expect constant roster changes with the subsequent days off being changed as well. You should have one block of six days that are fixed every month but the rest of the month will be changed with very little notice. You better have a understanding wife when you leave home for a 6 day trip and come home after 14 days and all her dinner plans with your friends was screwed up for the 10th time that year.

Why would one want any other aircraft type? It's the 747-400! Well ok, the -8 would be nice...

They are constantly short of trainers so getting a job as LIP is highly possible after a year or two.

I'm too old for the LoL so I'm not sure about that one.

As Arkdriver says, if you want to have a good medical cover you must take a personal insurance for your family. Expect to pay at least 5000 SGD per year. Nothing covered for the family for dental and for you the company pays up to 400 SGD per year. Won't cover much.

The annual leave ticket is subject to tax and airport fees so it will cost you 3-400 SGD per family member.

Staff travel is the worst in the industry. For regional travel the budget carriers are cheaper and you get a confirmed seat. For travel to the US or Europe you'll pay 1000-1200 SGD per person for a non confirmed ticket. Economy class is often full and they won't upgrade you even if business is empty so unless you can confirm the flight is open you're often better off buying a firm ticket for those flights as well.

The 32 days leave can be split up in fewer days. You can leave Singapore but must ALWAYS ask permission (which will be granted).

You might not be worried about getting a job on the -400 anywhere else but it might be painful for the family to move. That's the problem with the contract job.

[alwaysflying]

Thanks Patty for all the info !

Is there an end of contract Bonus &/or relocation assistance ?

How is the situation with the Pax side ? Hear that they may start hiring by year end !

[Patty747400]

End of contract bonus 10000 SGD per year.
Relocation 1000 kg (volumeweight) free airfreight and 5000 SGD towards other expenses (packing etc).

Just recently main had a surplus of about 30 Captains but you never know. If they start hiring it's a much better option.

[Iver]

Pacificgypsy,

Thanks for your informative posts. I do have a question: when second officers are hired by SIA and trained through the Singapore Flying College and then assigned to SIA, SIACargo or Silk Air for further training as First Officers, how are the pilots allocated to SIA, SIACargo and Silk Air? Is it based purely on need at the individual carriers, is it performance based (training results), or is it based on personal choice among cadets?

Also, when cadets do start at SIA, which fleets do they generally start on at SIA?

Cheers

[pacificgypsy]

SIA management decide where the second officers are placed and on which equipment. Individuals have no input.

[Arabian Mustang]

Also, when cadets do start at SIA, which fleets do they generally start on at SIA?



A330's/340's or B777's....:}Lucky baskets!!!!

[ROKAPE]

The order of preference is to recruit Singaporean or Singapore permanent residents, Malaysians or Indians.

Can you elaborate on this racially based recruitment.

[Gear Down and Locked]

Can you elaborate on this racially based recruitment.
race has nothing to do with it, its nationality. the answer lies with SIA HR.

[slayerdude]

The order of preference is to recruit Singaporean or Singapore permanent residents, Malaysians or Indians.


applies only to the ab-initio cadet pilot program... and there are also age limits!!!

[Patty747400]

Hey guys, I hope you all make it to SIA in the future. I will be happy to fly with you.
However, there is a special thread on Pprune for all the SIA cadet related issues. Try to use that one instead, it is difficult for all when the threads get mixed up with different topics.

[Patty747400]

Alwaysflying

A friend of mine corrected me on the school allowance issues. He correctly pointed out that the school allowance is subject to tax.

As the marginal tax from 160-320000 SGD is 17 % you will actually only be reimbursed by 16800- 17 % = 14000. Since the school fees are around 23000 for two children you will have to pay 1500 per month. School bus, uniforms, field trips and education material are on top of this so schools will probably cost you about 1800 per month on top of the 10000 I estimated for your monthly fixed expenses.

I personally know a guy who would be perfect for this job but since he has three children he can't afford to come.

Don't know how this is reimbursed in your current airline but it's easy to be misled when they say that school fees are covered.

Still a god job though. Too bad the remuneration is reduced every year. I wonder when the bottom is reached and they will do a revision of the T&C:s. Last one was made in January 2005.

[airbusbatics]

And to add to what Patty has just said, realistically 23000 is what you will pay per year for 1 kid at an international school in Singapore. One of the cheaper international schools...

[Pione]

Give this guy the whole story.

The school costs, the "staff travel", and the bogus family health insurance are just the tip of the iceberg. Read your contract very, very carefully.

Although few like to talk about it, or else they like to brag about what hot pilots they are able to handle inflight "training" events, the issue of "underqualifed" chaps in the right seat presents real problems from time to time. Also, don't forget that the zero time cadets can become Commanders in about 10 years and have basically been flying the autopilot for a couple landings a month building time. Think about that when you are in a coach seat (as you frequently are) riding around the globe and think about that when you are double crewed with that Captain. Your license is on the line as well even if you are not PIC.

[Patty747400]

airbusbatics

You are correct. My numbers was per term for two children as per alwaysflying's question.

[dcsagcs]

Stop to think about money....:}

[magnumaudio]

That's an encouraging thought, but so far I'm all out of ideas after looking since 2003. Cant trust the ME or Asia, which leaves???????:confused:

[Plectron]

Hi Ya Magnum:
I understand. If you have a job, particularly one with a union regardless of how weak it is, you should consider very strongly keeping it. There are risks in Asia and in the Middle East that people are reluctant to post and also reasons people like living here that folks are equally reluctant to post. One huge risk is: What happens if things go south on you one day - who is on your side? The answer is nobody. There are some punishments that go well beyond license suspension in many places.

If you are are a US citizen you are obligated to pay taxes and, additionally, some states will tax you even if you have a residence overseas unless you have no intention of returning and can prove it.

The are jobs coming open in the USA, South America, and even Australia - there are some excellent contract jobs in a certain mid-east country- go to Flight Ops dot com and check it out. If you are someone who is just dying for adventure and a change of scenery then all this does not apply to you but if not, I highly advise you to think twice before getting yourself involved in something that could cost you very dearly.

[global707]

dcsagcs

what do you think you average every month? not including any bonus etc ball park to run an budget on?......

Thanks
:ok:

[gottofly]

can anyone give any idea of Loss Of License coverage with SIA?

[Arkdriver744]

Loss of licence deal with SIA is not very good. They will pay you your basic salary to the end of your existing contract in a lump sum to a maximum of SIN$350k, but only when all your licences have been permanently revoked. It is only available if you are under 50 when you join and cover ceases at age 55.

[Algol]

Is hiring still ongoing?
Any idea on numbers?
Whats the screening process like?
Can you work this contract and live in KL or JB?

Thanks!

[slayerdude]

Algol.... if you are m'sain... they will only hire you on local terms(national policy) hence no contract.. permanent terms... and you u must have a singapore address and ph no... thats all... where you live is not their concern... unless you on standby and get activated -have to be at airport in 1hr..... if you get to work... they not worried where you live!!!.. however you don't get paid for nor do they pay for the tickets for commuting

[alwaysflying]

Just wondering if there has been any developments further to the advertisement last month for Capts at SQC ?

What is the selection procedure ?

How many positions are they hiring ?

The info did not contain info about the end of contract bonus neither the re location assistance ! Has there been a change ?

Whats the status at the Pax fleet, r they likely to hire soon ?

Thanks in advance to those giving replies

[Algol]

Hi slayerdude. All good gen, thanks.
I'm not Malaysian btw - just plan on living there! Nice country. Singapore too expensive lah.;)

[istkor]

Hi Alwaysflying,

what was your experience at the interview? I saw u didnt get any replies...:bored: how is the deal at sqc? how terrible is the training?

thanks

[istkor]

Hi Patty,

just wondering if expats pay local tax in Sin - i guess we have to deduct that from the 10k advertised starting salary...also, how many nights can i expect to spend away from base in a typical month? Thanks for any info, happy landings!

[notice to airmen]

Yes you have to pay tax about 10%.
The pattern are normally 8 to 14 days.
You can not thrust the roster at all.
I am very happy that I have left and so are my family, it is not a good employer to work for according me.

[744 NOMAD]

I have a screening in Nov for Ca B744F for SIA Cargo. I am Type Rated B744 with 9 yrs on type.

Does anyone have any information about the Sim (profiles etc.) and the interview questions etc.?

Any info appreciated.
Cheers,
Nomad

[Capt.Bee]

Nomad you are hired! Forget about profiles and the interview crap! :ok:

[Arkdriver744]

Interview is very friendly with little or no technical questions. Provided you can fly a steep turn in the sim you will be ok but make sure all your paperwork is perfect before you arrive.

Tax is 10% provided you qualify for Not Ordinarily Resident status. After 5 years you will pay full SIN income tax which puts your monthly tax bill up by about $1000

We have lots of pilots reading the back pages of 'Flight' with a great deal of interest at the moment. I really cant see a significant pay rise in the near future so turnover and training costs will remain high for the next year or so.

[fourgolds]

Hi All.

Just trying to get to grips with the monthly flying done at SQ Cargo.
Do I understand corrrectly to expect 50 to 65 hrs of stick time , but potentially another 30 hrs on top of that positioning ?

Desparately looking for an outfit that has less flying than the current flogging I am getting in the middle east ( 90 +hrs a month, multiple time zones,night turnarounds et etc , simulator and ground school duties excluded , factoring of hours ie bunk time does not count) , taking my total ( on aeroplanes , in the bunk included) to 940 hrs in 12 months. With no sign of it letting up. Just not sustainable and taking its toll on health and family.
Also got two kids to consider , but would rather be around a few more years at a lower package than shorten my life at the current rate.

" We spend our health gaining wealth , only to spend our wealth to regain our health ! "

If someone at SQ C could advise how many hours they average a month , a year . ( Stick and paxing) , would be greatly appreciated.

[Patty747400]

You'll get less stick time in SQC, that's for sure. I'm right now averaging about 55 hours. Add to that about 30-40 hours paxing.

But, if you don't like multiple time zones.. this is not for you. We do SIN-HKG-ANC-ATL-BRU-SHJ-SIN or similar in 8-14 days. Stay in SIN 3-4 days and then off again. Or the other way around. Not many turn arounds but a night SIN-PVG followed by PVG-SIN the next night is bad enough.

Many flights are "augmented" with an extra F/O which means nothing because they can't sit in your seat so you still have to stay there all night. But with SQ and CAAS logic this means you are less tired and can do a couple of more hours.:ugh:

And, even if you say you can accept lower pay, take a good look at the numbers. EK:s first officers package is better than the captains package here.

[azlee_19]

The ad for DEFO is on SQC website probably few weeks already. Are they flooded with applications? Can I guess a Rough take home FO salary for 50 hours around SGD9k ?

And English proficiency level 6 required? at level 5 i m not good enough lol

Update, can anyone please provide newly hired fo salary on LOCAL term. Thinking of applying with 4.5kTT majority 737 hrs.

[hectopascal]

Hello everybody,

The same kind of questions as azlee_19 (http://www.pprune.org/members/209278-azlee_19) here..

as well as...The DEFO position is a on local terms only. Can somebody maybe tell me
what the difference is with an expat DEFO contract? Also as a DEFO is
there a chance of upgrading, or is it a PFO position like e.g. KAL?
If yes...how long took it in the past?

Anything useful would be appreciated.


THX

[Arkdriver744]

Talks between ALPA S and SIA Cargo about Service Increments for 2009 and 2010 have just broken down according to an email I have received.

A word of caution to potential new joiners. If you are married with children and sign a training bond for 5 years and 8 months it can feel like a prison sentence after a few months.

There are much better jobs out there.

[azlee_19]

Arkdriver744

apart from giving the warning, could u enlighten more us on our queries?

no plan to get married till I turn 40

[Phantom Driver]

Amazing how the old wheel is still being reinvented. Read the same stuff when thinking of joining SIAC some years back. Good thing I didn't take much notice; turned out (arguably) to be the best flying job going.

Great aircraft, great destinations, nice layovers, good team in the office, nice profit share bonus (5 months basic one year). Sure, lot of positioning some months, but generally in SQ first class with lots of Dom Perignon to ease the pain (no pay for positioning).

Just a pity that Lehman Brothers put a stop to it at the time...:{

[Arkdriver744]

Over 75% of my positioning has been in EY of a B777. Usually SIN-AMS which is 13 hours.

Only 32 days leave each year. If you have children and want to take some of your leave while your children are also on holiday it can be very difficult. And staff travel - what staff travel?

HR are definitely trying to come down hard on terms and conditions. No profit share last year, only 2 weeks the year before and I think that the budget transfer from Cargo to Mainline when we acquire 2 BCFs from them will be justified by management as an excuse to seriously hurt next years profit share. The last increase in basic pay was in 2008 and there has been no increase to per diems or productivity pay in over 6 years. Inflation in SIN is 4%.

Yes, the 74F is a great airplane and we do see some interesting destinations, usually only for long enough to try to sleep and then continue immediately to another interesting destination though. There are some good guys in the office and out on the line but basic salary, child education allowance, annual leave and staff travel need to be seriously improved if SIA Cargo is to lose its low cost label.

Its not quite the worst job out there (arguably) but its not what SIA Cargo advertises itself to be either. Don't get locked into a punitive 5 years 8 month bond here unless you have no other choices would be my advice.

[White Hat]

Air China Cargo
From reading all these posts, it seems to me like you guys should all be joining Air China Cargo. Nice roster, good days off in a row(once we do 80 hrs, easily done within about 18 days), great salary and allowances. Beijing is a nice friendly place to live. This is the easiest job I have ever had. So far, after almost four years, I have yet to see a downside. Certainly there are none of my colleagues bitching or writing on PPRuNe badly about this package. Best kept secret in aviation is now heavily advertising in Flight as we have 5 CX 400s coming within the next 6 months.

Okay then, I bite.
Your post is a bit too positive, however..
What is a nice roster? Average length, a few examples perhaps.
When do you get your roster and for how long?
What are good days off in between? How many days do you get on average, what is the minimum?
4 years and no downside yet, hmmmmm.....
Last thing I heard is you are getting 1 CX400 because you cannot crew the others, oh so nobody there nobody bitching, that makes kind of sense.
So much for best known secret then.
Good luck in your little office.
Oh yeah, one more thing: "Do you wear hats?"

Cheers
White Hat

[protect essential]

How does the onld saying go? : "if something sounds too good to be true, it probably isn't true" or something to that effect

On another thread it is alleged that said poster is also one of the official recruiters for his "perfect job".

[seemorejugs]

Arkdriver...If you are soooo unhappy,why dont you f... off to something better????
We are all a bit sick of hearing all your negativity

[Arkdriver744]

Who elected you to speak for 'We' Seemore?

[azlee_19]

i know this is ridiculous : as i dont have money for bank guarantee, can i put my house for it?

if they want pilots to show them the money, they should pay the them more considering the extent people gone to raise those greens ( and not being able to use them up for 5.5 yrs?)

[protect essential]

Arkdriver744

Are you on your second contract or if you are still on your first contract with SIAC, do you plan on trying to renew?

[Aerodmb]

WHat does "local terms" mean on the job posting? I see they are hiring F/O's now, any chance ex-pats will be considered?

[azlee_19]

from my understanding, local term means, payscale same as local singaporeans, no housing allowance (as given in expat term), no education allowance. been trying to find out what the local FO salary start so far i found it is SGD 5600 at 4 years ago. anyone?

[Fubaliera]

Besides local terms, you must pay for your medical and hotel during the interview. Also a bond has to be paid in front for 35,000SGD

[DMN]

Any chance for pic upgrade of expat fos on local terms?

[Fubaliera]

Does anybody know what the career progession path for a a expat f/o is, upgrade times if any, transfer to mainline or silk etc etc

[overmars]

Ok for all you FO out there with queries for SIA Cargo:

SIA Cargo is NOT hiring FOs on expatriate terms. Only on local terms. The difference between expatriate and local:
1. Expatriates get a housing allowance to the tune of 3500-4000 a month.
2. Expatriates get children education up to pre-university (I believe). There is a cap, and I am not sure what it is.
3. Expatriates get a return ticket to their nominated home-base in the SIA network.

So, if you are planning to apply, please be ready to accept a local contract. Local contract means you are treated as equal as a local First Officer. A lot of talk about not being able to survive without a housing allowance. I am surviving without a housing allowance and no, I do not live with my parents (free lodging) because my parents are not in Singapore. It is do-able. But of course, if you plan to live along Orchard Road, drink your Dom Perignon while soaking in the sights of the city from your 20th storey apartment, then this contract is not for you.

With regards to upgrades, there are currently two guys who are going through command training. They are expatriates who have met the minimum criteria (hours, sectors, technical scores, non-technical scores). Before you guys start jumping up and down about how come expatriates can get selected for command training, the reason is because they were *promised* command in their contract when they joined years ago.

So, if you join on local terms, you work your way to meet the minimum requirement to get into the pool of candidates. Then, you get selected for the command training which will take about 8 months (so they say).

Other issues, transfer to SIA mainline or Silkair. Discussed before when there was an excess of FOs in Cargo and deficit of FOs in Silkair. Didn't work out because of politics and money-issue. So don't count on it happening. You join SIA Cargo, you're gonna spend the next few years in SIA Cargo.

Flying hours for First Officers is hovering around to 50 hours region. Depends on the season. Usually high during the pre-holiday season, and it drops down to about 10-30 hours in 3Q of the financial year.

All in all, good place to work. Friendly office staff, "flexible" rosters, commutable to KL/JB/Penang/thereabouts, competent Captains, good CRM, no bullying by instructors. There are definitely better options out there, but SIA Cargo is also definitely not the worst.

[DMN]

Good info, thanks for that. If one joins as a fo on local terms, approximate time to command? I understand there is lots of positioning. How often? Always in economy? As an expat on local terms, how does the pension scheme work? Do you have to be 65 to get any money?

Thanks

[overmars]

DMN: going off hand (haven't looked at the manuals, I mean, E-manuals) you need 330 PF sectors, 800 operating sectors, some hours requirements and, if I am not mistaken, seven years as an FO. At the rate that the local boys are doing, it will take about 10 years to reach that requirement.

Regarding positioning, it becomes more frequent as we have more disruptions and charter flights. Disruptions quite common because we are really tight on aircraft, so when one plane goes AOG, the whole scheduling goes bonkers, and we'll have guys paxing all over the world. Other than disruptions and charter flights, there will be the occasional paxing (especially within the USA, consider getting AA or Delta frequent flyer cards) between cities. Paxing on SIA flights, we're given confirmed Economy class, upgradable to First (not suite). Paxing on interline flights, it's economy class (FOs only).

wrt pension, Singapore has gone the CPF (Central Providence Fund) way and it only applies to Permanent Residents and citizens. More information can be found on www.cpf.gov.sg. Basically, company contributes an amount to your fund, together with your basic pay, and this amount can only be withdrawn when you hit... 62 or 65. Not so sure, they keep raising the age :ugh: If you're not a PR or citizen, then no pension schemes.

[goma]

I dont wish to sound negative but if your coming in as an expat FO on local terms unless things change(they wont)you will be in the RHS for 10yrs,you may be promised differently but you wont get upgrade,the two guys currently on upgrade were as mentioned before promised a Command at interview,they were also very experienced pilots before hand and had Commands on B737 etc etc before and they still had to wait 3-4yrs i think and the Command course is about 9 mths!!!!!!!:ugh:.

Understandably the existing local FOs will also watch the system very carefully to make sure there is no jumping ahead of them,most of them are very new to Aviation and will have to wait a long time as they must do 800 sectors to get Command and at say 60 landings a year that will take over 10yrs.:D

I wish you well and we all have to work and its not easy but there is NO short cut here,good bunch of guys and a very fair training dept and of course the 747. Brgds CPT X

[jumbo747400]

Can anyone update me on the life at SQ cargo these days as an expat Captain?????....the rosters.....days off......pay rise????......hrs per month.????..thanks...

[subria023]

For expat FO, does 'Local term' mean a permanent job with local terms and conditions OR contract job with local terms and conditions? If it's a contract job, how long is it? And what is the monthly average pay for FO at the moment?

Any info. on this will be much appreciated.

[slayerdude]

you need 330 PF sectors, 800 operating sectors=If you have these requirements when you join or obtain the requirements within 5 years of joining plus you had prior experince then minimun time to qualify for command selection is 5 years

local terms= job for life, no contract period and you retire at 65 however you retire cashless due to absence of a retirement scheme ...... unless you screw up....

[subria023]

slayerdude, thanks a lot for the answer

[subria023]

Another question about flying in Singapore. For the expat FOs that join on local terms, is there any requirement for the ATPL? I do not see this requirement on the website. Is CPL acceptable for the application? And is it possible to join with a CPL and later obtain an ATPL in Singapore?

Thank you

[msian1147]

Greetings!

i just submitted my application to SQC for the FO position

just graduated from flight school with 200 hrs under my belt..do u guys think i could get a chance? :}

[Stallone]

they dun need any type-rating?

[thornycactus]

Another question about flying in Singapore. For the expat FOs that join on local terms, is there any requirement for the ATPL? I do not see this requirement on the website. Is CPL acceptable for the application? And is it possible to join with a CPL and later obtain an ATPL in Singapore?
To answer your question,

Ans 1. Requirement for ATPL is set by CAAS. It is on CAAS website (pdf format).

Ans 2. Yes, you may get ATPL. To get an ATPL or not, is decided by the company not you.

By the way, read mercw123's post [right click here (http://www.pprune.org/5221653-post535.html)]! Last sentence.

Greetings! i just submitted my application to SQC for the FO position just graduated from flight school with 200 hrs under my belt..do u guys think i could get a chance?
To be frank and cruel. You will NOT have a chance! :mad:

Read Cruisercruiser's post [right click here (http://www.pprune.org/6059456-post582.html)]!

[msian1147]

I thought so haha :}

[goma]

Go fly a turboprop or short haul jet and get some experience then apply another time,too many guys feel thats below them but you will get sectors and valuable experience lacking in alot of guys who went straight onto long haul,good luck you will get there:ok:

[thornycactus]

I thought so haha
Malaysia government is protecting their citizens. You should have better opportunity in Malaysia than in Singapore. Huge aviation companies and better job prospect than in Singapore.

For instance, Singapore Youth Flying Club (SYFC). Those people in SYFC does not even accept ordinary Singaporeans (licensed holder) to be their flying instructor! :rolleyes:

Let alone be in SIA. SIA does not even consider Singaporeans who are already licensed!

With 200 hour, it's very hard to get into airlines nowadays even with a type rating unless you have cables and connections.
People usually have some sort of connection to get into airlines. It is "cable" connection! :ooh:

With 200 hour, it's very hard to get into airlines nowadays even with a type rating unless you have cables and connections. as the saying goes,not what you know but WHO you know.cheers
Yes! It is very very very true! It is not what you know, but who you know. :D

Go fly a turboprop or short haul jet and get some experience then apply another time,too many guys feel thats below them but you will get sectors and valuable experience lacking in alot of guys who went straight onto long haul,good luck you will get there
Talking is always easy! :mad:

Perhaps, you can kindly advise/recommmend those Singaporeans where to find such job opportunity?

[msian1147]

Appreciate your advice :ok:

[cruisercruiser]

Hi,

I'm a 200-hr freshie too. I applied with SIAC for the position of FO too. I got a rejection letter recently. I am pleasantly surprised that they actually send out rejection letters.

good luck!

[burnable gomi]

Singapore Airlines Cargo requires B747-400 Captains

MONTHLY BASIC SALARY

Captain: S$10,000 when fully operational. Pilots with sufficient relevant current B744 rating experience can expect a higher starting salary than S$10,000.

How much more can experienced B744 guys expect?

SERVICE BENEFITS AND ALLOWANCES

Monthly Variable Component: Up to 10% of monthly basic salary.

What is included in this amount?

Annual Wage Supplement: Maximum of one month’s basic salary, at the discretion of the company.

Is this consistently paid every year?


Salary Increment:

Out-of-Base Allowance: S$8 per hour from the start to the end of COP.

What is COP?

Flying Allowance: From S$55 per hour.

So about $3000 based on the hours I've read in this thread?


Additional Benefits for Contract Terms:

* Housing Allowance: S$3,900 per month if married and S$3,550 per month if single.

When was the last time this was reviewed? What was the previous amount? Housing prices in Singapore have skyrocketed in the last couple of years.

[Gear Down and Locked]

gomi,

1. It varies with experience, sliding scale the exact "maths" are hidden in HR bowels

2. 10% of the published basic salary is "variable" and can be taken away when the company fails to meet certain performance criteria i.e. if your basic salary is $10k, your fixed basic is $9k, and $1k is the variable component. ours was cut for 18mths only got it back this year. in Sep.

3.Supposed to be 1mth last drawn salary as at the 31st Dec, but was reduced last year even though 31Dec 08 salary had no reduction,\ and this year yet to be seen.

4. COP = Crew Operating Pattern, or in SQC terms, Changing Often Patterns. Right now disruptions are quite bad, some go out for 12 days only to return after 3 days, some go out for 5 days but only get back 2 weeks later. lots of delays between 4-47hrs. Memos from the office telling us in advance of delays are quickly replaced by new ones with more delays just hours later. This is the peak period, so this is expected, as someone mentioned before, 3Q is quiet, but in that one, figure about 10-30hrs flying max with frequent flight cancellations. esp late dec to early feb. lots of unpaid paxing not included in hours.

5. Annual average is about 500-550 hours. I'm too lazy to do the math right now.

6. Housing allowance - last reviewed in 2008, when it was reduced from $4000, despite rentals going up! The last increase was due to one of our brave colleagues going up to management and telling them like it is. contract currently says $3500 limit, so I guess the $400 is out of the kindness of the company's heart!

Overall good company to work for, if you're an experienced captain. :ok: but then again individual experience varies. I have no family and no major financial burdens and don't care about regular lifestyle. For FO maybe not so good as it seems the company wants less full time captain slots, I understand cruise pilots coming, and part time capts already in the system. The local boys are hardworking (generally) and great to get along with, but won't be happy if anyone tried to short cut the system to command, even though most are far from the min requirements.

GD

[burnable gomi]

Gear Down,

Thanks! Based on your 500-550 hours/year that works out to 41-46 hours a month or $2255-$2530/month in hourly pay. I've seen a couple people on this thread say that you get about $5000/month in variable pay. Where does the rest of it come from?

SGD12,500/month for a 744 captain is appalling! :eek:

[Gear Down and Locked]

Gomi,

Figure about 12-14 days out of base allowance at $8/hr. The money people say this isn't supposed to be income, as it is meant for meals and stuff. I'm a cheap git so I take a good portion of it home anyway. This portion isn't taxed - yet. A bird in the office mentioned that IRAS might be looking at taxing it, but right now it's still safe.

Also no transport to/from work, no paxing allowace, rents will definitely use up your allowance if you rent a condo.

It's less than the sandpit but then again I don't like sand.

GD

[fatbus]

But how much is it on average without housing and schooling, Average Capt in the sand @45000 - 50000 DHS
ps . after tax and including provident fund

[burnable gomi]

Based on Gear Down's numbers, it's about SGD12,500/month excluding housing, education and per diems. That's a bout AED35,000. I guess a bit more if you are previously experienced on the 744.

[Gear Down and Locked]

p.s. numbers are pre-tax.

[Patty747400]

Net pay as a captain after you have paid taxes, accommodation, utilities and schools (two children) is approx 11000 i.e the same as a first officer in EK.

Add to that: less leave days (32 versus 42), no ID 90, inadequate medical insurance, no provident fund and no transportation to work.

No increase in salary since 2005, no service increment for two years, no bonus because SIA will protect mainline from any fines although the crimes happened before Cargo was a separate company.

Fact is: A first officer in EK has a better package than an expat captain in SIA Cargo. Then it's up to you if living in the ME is acceptable.

[hamil]

Then it's up to you if living in the ME is acceptable.

... Or, well, considering a captain seat on SIAC, it's up to him if working on EK with a jerk on left seat is acceptable.

[minwas]

Hi there,
Could somebody help me with the application. Please feel free to PM me. Thanks

[Stallone]

seems to be the case, maybe cargo is getting direct entry pilots in future

[Donkey Duke]

Can someone give me a "normal" example of a roster or trip starting and ending in Singapore? How many days out, and where are typical layovers? Cheers!

[minwas]

----------------------

[notice to airmen]

Normal roster 1 month i advance can look like this,
Day 1 SIN to SYD to AKL 2 Day 2 layover Day 3 layover Day 4 AKL to SIN

About a week before you will have roster change
Day 1 SIN to BLR to SHJ Day 2 Layover Day 3 SHJ to AMS Day 4 position in economy to SIN

The day before you will have a new change Day 1 SIN to XMN to NKG Day2. layover Day 3. NKG to ANC Day 4. layover Day 5. ANC to LAX Day 6. layover Day 7. layover Day 8. LAX to AMS Day 9. car AMS to BRU Day 10. BRU to SHJ Day 11. layover Day 12. SHJ to SIN

And what you actually fly
Day 1. SIN XMN to NKG Day 2. layover Day3. layover Day4 .Layover Day 5
NKG to ANC Day 6 ANC ORD to DFW day7. layover Day 8 DFW to Bru Day 9. By car BRU to AMS then Economy to SIN.

During my 5 years I say that is a typical pattern, there is a lot of changes
and disruption.

[overmars]

Or another one could be like this:

Day 1: SIN XMN NKG, followed by 14 days doing NKG ANC, ANC DFW, DFW BRU, BRU SHJ, SHJ AMS, AMS SHJ, SHJ SIN.

Or, maybe something equally nice.

And 2 days before that, the entire COP gets cancelled, and you get Reserved Duty or Standbies. :{:{

[Phantom Driver]

Sounds like -"Business as Usual" then! :ok:

[captainng]

so what does a captain on the 10000 basic end up taking home each month?

what sort of housing can you get with the 3900 allowance?

what is the cost of a small car to buy and run(if anyone has rough figures as i cant work all the calculators on the bloggs)
or is it cheaper to mrt/taxi?

what is supermarket prices like, say compared to uk
how many days a month are you in singapore?
can you get leave when requested and is there any staff travel?

any answers greatly appreciated!:ok:

[Arkdriver744]

so what does a captain on the 10000 basic end up taking home each month?

Varies but about 19000 average. You then have to pay for accommodation and income tax though.

what sort of housing can you get with the 3900 allowance?

Not very good to be honest.

what is the cost of a small car to buy and run(if anyone has rough figures as i cant work all the calculators on the bloggs)
or is it cheaper to mrt/taxi?

Dont consider a car unless you really cant survive without one. They are expensive to buy, run and maintain and are officially lumps of scrap once they are 10 years old.

what is supermarket prices like, say compared to uk

Outrageously expensive

how many days a month are you in singapore?

Varies seasonally. In the busy periods its nowhere near enough. In the slack periods it is far too many.

can you get leave when requested and is there any staff travel?

Er, No and No. Unless you count ID 75 as staff travel. Much cheaper to go firm EY with a loco.

any answers greatly appreciated!http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

[Patty747400]

captainng

A lot depends on your family situation. If you are single you can live a good life. With one or two children you're on par with an EK first officer. If you have more than two children... well, let's just say it's not good enough.

[captainng]

thanks for the replies,
is the bond still $50000us or is it less and do you have any problems getting a bank loan and does it cost you to maintain it and is the bond pro ratered or full amount before the 5yr8mnths.
are you guys happy there and just as miserable as the rest of us or is it really bad. i am in a low cost in uk and get 5 on 4 off but i hate the cold and the taxes getting exponetionally higher.
i have one young child that would be in school so that would be an expense so would i have enough to live properly or will it be a struggle only sitting at home doing nothing. is there lots of stuff to do in singapore and is it really crowded, are the beaches good enough to swim in or pool only!

thanks for the replies and have a great xmas

NG

[Just another student]

Just had a quick search through this thread for local FO terms and conditions, but could not find any figures. Just how bad is the salary for an expat looking to move with a wife and daughter in tow?

What would be a rough take home figure in US$?

Its a shame that expat conditions do not exist for FO's, because it seems like most people are reasonably positive regarding SIA cargo! I think very few airlines are immune from last minute roster changes, it comes with the job to a certain extent IMHO.

To repeat what another poster mentioned, what bond is required for the 744?

At the end of the day most of us just want a safe and enjoyable day out / trip, both appear to be possible here.

JAS

[Heracles]

While the T's and C's of employment; both current and wished for,
are certainly very important to the jocks and wannabee's,, I opened this thread to give voice to those with intel/RUMOR on the health of the airline itself.
So, how about a "do-over",, call it.. SQC early 2011

I'll start:
- Seems that SQ had a yard-sale on 772's and Fedex bought them by the dozen.
- Been getting hints of more ships being added to the SQC fleet, yet SPA who was slated for conversion to BCF is still active for SQ. Where would these rumored additional ships come from?
- Rumor here is that Atlas has been scouring the streets for every viable 744 and has come up mostly empty.

That should be enough to get things started.
--cheers,, heracles

[Gear Down and Locked]

is there lots of stuff to do in singapore and is it really crowded, are the beaches good enough to swim in or pool only!

with just over 7000 people per sq km, Singapore is the 3rd most densely populated city in the world. Even more so than HKG. To give you a clue, lots of new apartments being launched for sale are advertised as being "spacious" if they exceed 1000sqft. Don't expect to see pastures and countryside. or even the horizon, unless you live on the coast!

to buy a car, you need a piece of paper first, which is sort of like a licence to own a car. that piece of paper is currently worth almost $70k for a car above 1600cc. Then you need to add the cost of the car + 110% tax + dealer profit.

rents are going up, and cost of living is marginally cheaper than London, though the real purchasing power is probably greater there.

Lots of info available on google!

[Stallone]

it's a nice place to live in

but not exactly easy to live on comfortably

everything is just so freaking expensive

[Phantom Driver]

everything is just so freaking expensive


Only if you insist on frequenting the East Coast/Orchard Road scene. Tiger Beer at the local Kopitiam goes down just as well, with less damage to the wallet :ok:

[captainng]

Hi guys thanks for the info, anyone know what the deal is with the bond
Is it pro data or lump sum for the bond period and how much is it?

[etops777]

To any SQ Cargo guys here

What's the typical monthly roster like? Days off at home?

[Arkdriver744]

See my post of 19 Dec. There is no such thing as a typical monthly roster. What you can be sure of is that your roster will change several times before you depart SIN and several more after you have left SIN.

You will have leave approved and then have your roster delayed down route such that you get back to SIN 3 days after your leave starts without so much as being asked if its ok.

Days off at home are variable, unpredictable and cannot be relied on.

HR are really trying to drive down terms and conditions, morale is as low as I have ever seen it and we still await our 2009 service increment (yes 2009) with baited breath.

[O'Neill No6]

Only a few months since I left SQ Cargo. Can't believe how much morale has dropped, according to these last two reports.

I do agree that from when we joined in late 2004 until now the package hasn't changed one bit (aside from the "market-linked" increase in housing allowance!). That seems scandalous to me. If they continue on that path they will end up with very much "lower division" Captains.

I must say that 4PW's comment about "crap aircraft" is a surprise. In recent times I cannot remember the aircraft being "crap" I found that to be an area in which I had no complaints.

Undoubtedly for me the worst and worsening factor, was the gob-smackingly poor rostering. I flew all around the world in 8 days in one of my final trips! You are right that 15-20 roster changes throughout the roster period was normal almost for the whole 5 years I was there.

Best of luck guys. I mean it!

[4PW's]

Well, I guess the MEL's on my departures were more extensive for me. Relative to the 'northern' Asian carriers, SIA Cargo carried a lot of defects. But nothing overly dangerous, so perhaps my comment was a bit OTT.

I often return to Singapore on layovers and have met up with the lads on each occassion, and down-route. The truth hurts, and I'm sorry to see it, but the combined and unanimous angst shown by the guys has been a surprise.

Hopefully things will improve, but don't hold your breath. Vote with your feet. A few others have, and all seem happy with their decisions. Good luck.

[Gear Down and Locked]

4PWs, how's Japan treating you?

Anyway I think you're spot on. For the so-called "lull" season where planes are meant to be on the ground getting maintained, the number of birds going tech is unacceptable! The support systems don't seem to work either - imagine out of SIN no one calls you to tell you of a 5hr flight delay until you're at the airport, and you get to the plane and a bunch of engineers are huddled over the console and the plane has been on the ground 10 hrs!

Everyone knows HR worldwide is scum but to see planes being dispatched out of base with so many MELs during the season when they are meant to all be fixed is a worrying indication of the underlying situation.

[zekeigo]

I heard that Sincargo had 11 hard landings in just one month; one aircraft grounded for a few days to repair the damages...
It is a lot for a fleet of only 11 planes.
Perhaps safety is not the first priority anymore.
Heads up guys

[Arkdriver744]

Thats the sort of thing that happens when HR demean and demoralise a work force.

[Left Coaster]

Couldn't agree more! It was much the same for me and my family during our time there. I still flinch when I think I hear the sound of paper sliding under a hotel room door...It always meant a roster change at SQ Cargo...or that blasted message light on the phone was always flashing...I still look for that too! Seems the roster changes caused irreperable damage to my mind! (:8)
Having said that...I was able to take the early get out when it came up to move on to a way better and much happier situation that would not have been available if I didn't have the B744 experience...SQ was not renewing many expat contracts at the time, and let go some very senior and well experienced Captains, some with over 12 years at both Mainline and Cargo...they will replace expats in a heartbeat if they think they can get a guy to join for less money, you can bet on that...it's all about keeping the rice bowl full. As for any job protection you might get from ALPA S...don't hold your breath...it's a "What's In It For Me" club and apart from a few who genuinly have concern for the colleagues, the rest could give a S**t about you. Lots of work done not that long ago on fixing a poor rostering practice was undone and trashed as soon as the few who tried to help left...it's looking like a real nightmare now, which is too bad. There used to be some real talented guys working there, and I loved the flying, but hated the life in the city, and the roster changes...cheap buggers could have made it work, but declined...good luck to those who stay or join.

[rotatejunkie]

Hey guys,
Its great hearing all the individual comments and views on the carrier.

Just a quick question for those in the know ---

For the FO position, are they strict on the 1500 hrs on commercial jet requirement?

I was wondering :- as they (SQC) do not (i may be wrong on this) select from the pool of SQ cadet ab-initio, considering that everyone else is happily flying for their respective airlines or biz jets and gaining hours; who is able to amass 1500 hrs?

And for those who have the hours to leave a company which they are already gainfully employed?

Thanx for the replies :)

[O'Neill No6]

Hey LC, that gave me a laugh! About the delay messages under the door and the telephone message lights! I have done some holidaying recently and always check for messages in the doorway of my room and for the message light! I am always surprised if I go out for the day and the light is NOT flashing when I return!

There is a topic in the Rumours and News section of pprune (alleged solo napping by SAS pilot) and I have to laugh at some of the reasons people have listed for not obtaining rest on layovers. Remember Anchorage? There was a place that ticked all the boxes. Summertime: Almost 24 hour daylight, trains blaring their horns from 4am onwards, heavily-laden light aircraft whipping past the window 18 hours a day, fighters from the Elmendorf AFB going "straight up" to 50,000', tourist coaches outside from the early hours running their aircon in preparation for their customers, a constant stream of loud-talking (deaf) tourists passing by your door at all hours, security standing outside your room with their "walkie talkies" set on max volume. Added to that the regular difficulties of all hotels as described in that thread.

So glad I'm out of it. I used to make appointments for the day following my scheduled arrival into Singapore, but had to cancel so many times I think people thought I was just lazy. 4PW's is right when he says that the fatigue that you will develop in SQC is close to incomparable with any other job I know.

True about some great guys there. Some lovely local guys and going back to the days when the Scandinavians were there-well it was a good job then no doubt.

These are my reminiscences but I hope that may also be of some help to those trying to make their decisions.

All the best guys.

[Phantom Driver]

There is a topic in the Rumours and News section of PPRuNe (alleged solo napping by SAS pilot) and I have to laugh at some of the reasons people have listed for not obtaining rest on layovers. Remember Anchorage? There was a place that ticked all the boxes. Summertime: Almost 24 hour daylight, trains blaring their horns from 4am onwards, heavily-laden light aircraft whipping past the window 18 hours a day, fighters from the Elmendorf AFB going "straight up" to 50,000', tourist coaches outside from the early hours running their aircon in preparation for their customers, a constant stream of loud-talking (deaf) tourists passing by your door at all hours, security standing outside your room with their "walkie talkies" set on max volume


Now you're bringing tears to my eyes with all that nostalgia; I really do miss all that stuff (honest!). A trip to F Station or Humpy's usually solved the insomnia problems.. If you were really bored, you could even try ABC; a hardy bunch there, "performing" in the depths of Alaskan winter (minus 20C on a good night).

In summer, reindeer hot dogs at the stands on 5th Avenue were pretty good too. Then go for a bike ride on the coastal trail to burn off the calories, after which off to LA or Dallas for another 2 day layover. Good old days!

(p.s the notes under the door (often lots) and flashing message light did sometimes take the shine off things a bit, but what the hell, life's got to have a few drawbacks:ok:

[nosher]

Morning Folks,

Just wondering how long on average it can take from submitting your application (FO-Local terms) and being called for interview? Considering I have all their requirements .

Thanks