View Full Version : Headscratching Connection Problem
Hi all. Got a bit of a problem here. My internet connection when connected to a browser (opera/firefox/ie) goes down at random times online. It might hold out for 5 mins or it could be an hour or two, it just depends but I often have to restart my laptop here and that it is all ok again.
Meanwhile, when I click on Outlook Express to check my email it does this no problem everytime, even when the browsers won't connect.
I have turned everything off that is shared here, the laptops upstairs, the Wii, the ipods etc and this doesn't help.
Virus scan has been done every night in the middle of the night, NTR and I have reset the router too.
Vista and using Avast.
green granite
15th Jan 2010, 20:45
Could be line problems, could be connectors getting dirty, seems strange that e-mails ok though. Try shutting everything down powering off at the mains, go round and re-plug all telephone lines, if you have any spare filters change them, then start everything up again and see if it improves, if no get them to do a line test for you.
Hi thanks for that. It is all coming through Virgin Broadband. Box plugs into the wall. Have reset all that, turned it all on and off again but it still happens. The headscratching bit is like you say, the emails will work 24/7 but the internet will drop out anytime. It has just happened now in fact, since posting the first question here Opera froze, couldn't do anything with that except minimise it, the fullscreen button in the middle was greyed out and clicking the red X button done nothing. This happens quite a lot. I then used Firefox and after about 5 mins the connection dropped, I was just waiting for the pages to refresh nothing was happening and all the while I could still check my email!
You say that only web access is affected, not mail? This makes me wonder if something's going on at the ISP. It's hard to tell exactly what from here, but you should not need to restart the whole machine. Try right-clicking on the wireless connection icon in "Network Connections" and say "Repair".
What to do next depends on your level of knowledge. If I suggest temporarily changing the connection's DNS setting to use Google's DNS (8.8.8.8), as a test, do you know what I mean by that?
No. I have no idea I am afraid. :(
Saab Dastard
15th Jan 2010, 21:28
Hi BRL,
What might be worth doing is a Ping and / or continuous Ping test to a variety of addresses.
First of all, open a command prompt (cmd in the Run box) and do a tracert to www.pprune.org. Note the IP address of www.pprune.org (67.201.16.181)
When that is complete, note the first (or 2nd) IP addresses in the sequence - the first will probably be a 192.168.x.x, assuming you have a router between your PC and the cable modem. The second (or first, if no router) will be associated with an address like [xxxx-xxx-xxx-xxxxx.cable.virginmedia.com].
That's your "next hop" device. When your internet connection fails, ping your router (if you have one), then your "next hop" then an internet site (e.g. www.pprune.org), then the IP address of www.pprune.org (67.201.16.181).
Also, go into the properties of Outlook Express and note down the name and IP address of your mail server (smtp.blueyonder.co.uk or some such). By doing a ping to the mail server name you should get the IP address.
When the connection "fails", try pinging the mail server name, and then the address only.
Let us know what pings are successful and which are not.
Also, can you paste up your PC's network settings? IP address, etc. Is it receiving IP address and DNS servers automatically?
SD
frostbite
15th Jan 2010, 21:49
From my recent experience of Opera it might be contributing to (not causing) the problems.
Does the red O (top left) change to a white square?
Thanks chaps, I will have a go at that tomorrow. Tiredness and some strong European lager might add to the confusion at the moment!!
Thanks again :)
If you can still send and receive mail while the browser is on strike, it's not the internet connection itself. Changing filters and wiring is not likely to fix it.
If this is a Windows machine, take a look at the logs to see if it reports what the error is.
Control Panel - Administrative Tools - Event Viewer.
Then look at Administrative Events (scroll through). Ignore ones marked "Information", look first for red ones, and if there are none of those, look at the yellow ones.
Don't panic at the apparently large number of these things - some of them are generated by stuff outside your PC.
You'll probably find something that uses Internet - type words such as DHCP or IP.
You can usually click on a link that will tell you the next thing to try.
Thank you Keef, I will have a look tomorrow :)
mixture
16th Jan 2010, 22:44
Could be line problems, could be connectors getting dirty, seems strange that e-mails ok though. Try shutting everything down powering off at the mains, go round and re-plug all telephone lines, if you have any spare filters change them, then start everything up again and see if it improves, if no get them to do a line test for you.
Green Granite, sounds like the call centre script monkeys have messed with your mind. :cool:
Half of the things you list are things they use to buy themselves more time and make it sound like it's nothing to do with them.
If your computer is working and you can ping other devices on your LAN and you can ping your router, but you can't ping the outside world (either by DNS lookup or IP address). Check router connections and try rebooting the router to re-sync with the exchange. But after that, it's more to do with them having to pull their finger out and start testing things.
Unless you have made any significant infrastructure changes between the time when it was working and it suddenly stopped then you are wasting your time going round changing filters, unscrewing faceplates and all the other rubbish they spew out off their pointless scripts.
mixture
16th Jan 2010, 22:47
Also, a little something to bring a smile to BRL's face since he's on NTL....
Allegedly an actual letter of complaint to NTL :
Dear Cretins:
I have been an NTL customer since 9th July 2001, when I signed up for your four-in-one deal for cable TV, cable modem, telephone, and alarm monitoring. During this three-month period I have encountered inadequacy of service which I had not previously considered possible, as well as ignorance and stupidity of monolithic proportions. Please allow me to provide specific details, so that you can either pursue your professional prerogative and seek to rectify these difficulties -- or more likely (I suspect) so that you can have some entertaining reading material as you while away the working day smoking B&H and drinking vendor-coffee on the bog in your office.
My initial installation was cancelled without warning, resulting in my spending an entire Saturday sitting on my fat arse waiting for your technician to arrive. When he did not arrive, I spent a further 57 minutes listening to your infuriating hold music, and the even more annoying Scottish robot woman telling me to look at your helpful website. HOW? I alleviated the boredom by playing with my testicles for a few minutes -- an activity at which you are no doubt both familiar and highly adept. The rescheduled installation then took place some two weeks later, although the technician did forget to bring a number of vital tools -- such as a drill-bit and his cerebrum. Two weeks later, my cable modem had still not arrived. After 15 telephone calls over four weeks my modem arrived, six weeks after I had requested it -- and begun to pay for it. I estimate your internet server's downtime is roughly 35% -- the hours between about 6 pm and midnight, Monday through Friday and most of the weekend. I am still waiting for my telephone connection.
I have made nine calls on my mobile to your no-help line and have been unhelpfully transferred to a variety of disinterested individuals who are, it seems, also highly skilled bollock jugglers. I have been informed that a telephone line is available (and someone will call me back); that I will be transferred to someone who knows whether or not a telephone line is available (and then been cut off); that I will be transferred to someone (and then been redirected to an answering machine informing me that your office is closed); that I will be transferred to someone and then been redirected to the irritating Scottish robot woman. And several other variations on this theme.
Doubtless you are no longer reading this letter, as you have at least a thousand other dissatisfied customers to ignore and also another one of those crucially important testicle moments to attend to. Frankly I don't care. It's far more satisfying as a customer to voice my frustrations in print than to shout them at your unending hold music. Forgive me, therefore, if I continue.
I thought British Telecom was crap; that they had attained the holy piss-pot of god-awful customer relations; and that no one, anywhere, ever, could be more disinterested, less helpful or more obstructive to delivering service to their customers. That's why I chose NT and because, well, there isn't anyone else is there?
How surprised I therefore was when I discovered to my considerable dissatisfaction and disappointment what a useless shower of bastards you truly are. You are sputum-filled pieces of distended rectum, incompetents of the highest order. BT -- wankers though they are -- shine like brilliant beacons of success in the filthy mire of your seemingly limitless inadequacy.
Suffice to say that I have now given up on my futile and foolhardy quest to receive any kind of service from you. I suggest that you cease any potential future attempts to extort payment from me for the services which you have so pointedly and catastrophically failed to deliver. Any such activity will be greeted initially with hilarity and disbelief and will quickly be replaced by derision and even perhaps bemused rage.
I enclose two small deposits, selected with great care from my cat's litter tray, as an expression of my utter and complete contempt for both you and your pointless company. I sincerely hope that they have not become desiccated during transit -- they were satisfyingly moist at the time of posting, and I would feel considerable disappointment if you did not experience both their rich aroma and delicate texture. Consider them the very embodiment of my feelings towards NTL and its worthless employees.
Have a nice day. May it be the last in your miserable short lives, you irritatingly incompetent and infuriatingly unhelpful bunch of twits.. May you rot in Hell, Robert Stokes
green granite
17th Jan 2010, 07:21
mixture, I don't know which 2 bit company you deal with, but mine doesn't 'buy time' it does an immediate line test. The things I mentioned are real, corrosion on contacts in plugs is not unusual even gold plated ones can suffer, filters can fail although rarely I've seen 3 examples that have gone o\c (not mine) I had a situation where if I was on line and the phone rang the connection would drop the BT engineer traced it eventually to a badly corroded connection on the pole.
As an electronics service engineer about half the faults on the sort of M\Cs I worked on could be cured by removing edge connectors cleaning them up and re-plugging, or lifting and re-plugging the EProms. It takes just a few seconds to check these things, and does no harm. People like yourself who always look for the most complicated reasons possible for any fault before checking the basics are liable to cause more harm than good. Most people if there is no power to a M\C would check that the power lead is plugged in, I presume you would take the Power Supply to bits.
I am sorry I have not replied to this sooner but it has not blooming happened since I posted!! Typical!
Green Granite, the socket on the wall where the telephone is plugged in has had to be replaced twice in the last few months due to water coming in to it from outside. Last visit the engineer replaced the entire box and filled it with tissues to soak up any water that might get in there again!!!
If this is the problem though how can it connect to my email anytime at all but not the browser when that gets stuck?
FWIW I have done a ping test and when it happens again I will do another but as I say, sods law says it won't happen now for a while!!!
frostbite
17th Jan 2010, 11:45
filled it with tissues to soak up any water that might get in there again!!!
That's handy! A box full of conductive wet tissues. Bound to solve the problem.
green granite
17th Jan 2010, 13:05
If this is the problem though how can it connect to my email anytime at all but not the browser when that gets stuck?
If the download speed of the e-mail service is relativly slow the connection will be more robust and less likely to drop any bits and so stay connected for longer.
Can I suggest you try some of these tests: Speed tests and problem diagnosis tools - dslreports.com (http://www.dslreports.com/tools)
mixture
17th Jan 2010, 13:45
mixture, I don't know which 2 bit company you deal with
GG,
Suffice to say that either through personal experience, or through helping others, I have dealt with a multitude of ADSL providers.
It's almost always bad news when the call centre monkeys on the phone start reading off a script and asking you to do pointless things, some of which I mentioned earlier.
Yes there are exceptions to the rule, these tend to be smaller providers who do not have large call centre operations .... one excellent example in the UK is Zen Internet who have a wonderful technical support team as do one or two others I could mention. (no, I've got no interest in Zen otherwise than being a happy customer with multiple lines from them and knowing others who are equally happy).
Make no mistake, I'm not having a go at your engineering background .... but you've also got to look at things from an IT point of view too, and generally speaking, when an ADSL line suddenly stops working, in the majority of cases it's not because of contact corrosion or anything else.... becuase you would have likely seen that coming, corrosion doesn't happen overnight .... and if it does, I'd be looking to move house pronto ! :ok:
green granite
17th Jan 2010, 14:16
Mixture, it's an intermittent problem he has "It might hold out for 5 mins or it could be an hour or two" hence my comment about plugs and sockets.
Blues&twos
17th Jan 2010, 15:21
Green Granite has a good point. As a controls engineer, the first thing I look at for intermittent comms faults will be connection points (plugs/sockets). Quite apart from anything else, it's the easiest thing to check and eliminates the obvious stuff first. No point in getting into the software if there's a dodgy cable plugged in.
One of my most recent jobs (loss of comms between an inverter and its control panel via ethernet) was traced to a corroded ethernet plug/socket which had seen water ingress. A liberal application of contact cleaner and some vigorous cleaning with a brush, followed by waterproofing the box had the problem sorted. This was reported as a sudden loss of comms.
EDITED to say - I had a similar problem with my internet connection a few months ago which ended up being a faulty modem/router. This was suspected and then confirmed by substitution of cables, filters etc (and eventually router) until the connection worked.
Saab Dastard
17th Jan 2010, 17:37
BRL,
I would look to waterproof and dry the phone socket as the first step!
SD
johngreen
17th Jan 2010, 22:42
An example of a phone socket affected by damp resulting in just these sort of connection problems....
http://i46.tinypic.com/vossgg.jpg
Thanks for the replies so far, much appreciated.
It look like the water in the box is the problem then. I will get on to them and see if they can relocate it.
Yesterday I did ping pprune when it was all running ok and this evening when it all stopped, I ran the ping thingy again. Here are the results....
Microsoft Windows [Version 6.0.6002]
Copyright (c) 2006 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
C:\Users\Paul>tracert www.pprune.org
Tracing route to www.pprune.org [67.201.16.181]
over a maximum of 30 hops:
1 1 ms 1 ms 3 ms 192.168.1.1
2 126 ms * * 10.10.140.1
3 86 ms 9 ms 10 ms brig-core-1a-ge-110-2566.network.virginmedia.net
[80.3.65.33]
4 12 ms 147 ms 29 ms gfd-bb-a-so-020-0.network.virginmedia.net [212.4
3.162.221]
5 164 ms * 138 ms 213.152.245.49
6 192 ms * * so-1-3-0.mpr1.lhr3.uk.above.net [64.125.28.197]
7 128 ms 213 ms 127 ms linx.ge0-3.cr01.lhr01.mzima.net [195.66.227.15]
8 * 276 ms 214 ms eos1-0.cr01.lga02.us.mzima.net [216.193.255.45]
9 * 171 ms 214 ms xe1-0.cr01.lga01.us.mzima.net [216.193.255.213]
10 273 ms 251 ms 127 ms te1-7.cr01.ord01.us.mzima.net [69.174.120.74]
11 * 189 ms 253 ms te0-0.cr02.sjc02.us.mzima.net [69.174.120.9]
12 289 ms 178 ms 232 ms te0-1.cr01.lax02.us.mzima.net [69.174.120.85]
13 * * 240 ms xe1-0.cr01.lax01.mzima.net [64.235.224.181]
14 231 ms 269 ms 359 ms xe0-0.cr01.lax06.us.mzima.net [216.193.255.98]
15 * 243 ms * pprune.org [67.201.16.181]
16 205 ms 251 ms 389 ms pprune.org [67.201.16.181]
Trace complete.
C:\Users\Paul>
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Microsoft Windows [Version 6.0.6002]
Copyright (c) 2006 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
C:\Users\Paul>tracert www.pprune.org
Tracing route to www.pprune.org [67.201.16.181]
over a maximum of 30 hops:
1 2 ms 2 ms 2 ms 192.168.1.1
2 * * 40 ms 10.10.140.1
3 10 ms 9 ms 12 ms brig-core-1a-ge-110-2566.network.virginmedia.net
[80.3.65.33]
4 114 ms 156 ms 13 ms gfd-bb-a-so-020-0.network.virginmedia.net [212.4
3.162.221]
5 63 ms * 58 ms 213.152.245.49
6 * * * Request timed out.
7 181 ms 107 ms 108 ms linx.ge0-3.cr01.lhr01.mzima.net [195.66.227.15]
8 120 ms * 137 ms eos1-0.cr01.lga02.us.mzima.net [216.193.255.45]
9 179 ms 105 ms 142 ms xe1-0.cr01.lga01.us.mzima.net [216.193.255.213]
10 * 132 ms * te1-7.cr01.ord01.us.mzima.net [69.174.120.74]
11 * * * Request timed out.
12 318 ms * * te0-1.cr01.lax02.us.mzima.net [69.174.120.85]
13 * 178 ms * xe1-0.cr01.lax01.mzima.net [64.235.224.181]
14 196 ms 181 ms * xe0-0.cr01.lax06.us.mzima.net [216.193.255.98]
15 200 ms 178 ms * pprune.org [67.201.16.181]
16 * * 180 ms pprune.org [67.201.16.181]
Trace complete.
C:\Users\Paul>
Saab Dastard
17th Jan 2010, 23:46
Yes,
It looks like it is working - sort of, only just.
There are long delays for very close devices and lots of time-outs (the * signs). This suggests that the line is very poor.
My average round-trip time to PPRUNE is 155ms - it's taking you nearly that long to get to your 4th hop!
4 114 ms 156 ms 13 ms gfd-bb-a-so-020-0.network.virginmedia.net [212.4
3.162.221]
It would explain why email works when everything else doesn't - email is not "real time", in the sense that it can continue trying in the background when you aren't looking, while with web browsing the delays are self-evident, and when the delay is too great, your web browser gives up and reports an error. The protocol for email is also "smaller", and the data transfer is generally much less than with web traffic (large attachments excepted).
I just hope this doesn't fall between two companies - BT for the landline connection and Virgin for the ADSL, with both blaming the other.
SD
mixture
18th Jan 2010, 07:47
There are long delays for very close devices and lots of time-outs (the * signs). This suggests that the line is very poor.
Actually, not always.
Traceroutes in the wrong hands can be a waste of time and give the wrong impression.
All sorts of technical wizardry can give the impression of time outs..... (e.g. packet filters a.k.a. firewalls that you encounter along the way).
Try something like MTR (http://www.bitwizard.nl/mtr/) (http://www.bitwizard.nl/mtr/) if you want a more useful traceroute.... (but bear in mind that the same potential for taceroute weaknesses apply)
Saab Dastard
18th Jan 2010, 11:50
Mixture,
When you get some responses and some * from the same host, that's an indication of excessive delays. When you get some * from the next-hop device, you KNOW it's delay!
All *, yes, that can mean other things.
A firewall does one of two things - forwards a packet or drops it, based on the rules it has been configured with. It doesn't introduce random delays. This is where you tend to see all *, where it has been configured not to forward ICMP traffic.
Traffic shaping, on the other hand, can prioritise certain types of traffic, and could possibly be responsible for dropping lower priority ICMP packets.
Traceroute analysis in the wrong hands can be a waste of time and give the wrong impression. ;)
SD
mixture
18th Jan 2010, 11:59
SD,
Don't want to drift this thread any further, PPRuNe isn't really the place for discussing nitty gritty of ISP networks... :cool:
Random delays are to be expected on the internet, there are bottlenecks here and there ..... good ISPs know how to use the weapons in their arsenal to take care of routing around it.... :ok:
However, sort of back on-topic, I should remind you that your most ADSL/Cable type connections do not come with any SLAs, so you get what you pay for in terms of potentially unpredictable performance because you are at the bottom of the ISP customer food chain. :ok:
Interesting stuff. Thanks chaps. I will get onto Virgin and throw a few F's into them! :D
Thanks again to all who have replied :)
For those interested here is the traceroute whilst the connection was good, followed by one just done when the connection dropped out again just now.
(If you are wondering why it is a Sky.com rather than Virgin, the Sky account still works over a year after I stopped using Sky and it is better than the web based Virgin/NTL mail which I hate!!)
Microsoft Windows [Version 6.0.6002]
Copyright (c) 2006 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
C:\Users\Paul>tracert smtp.tools.sky.com
Tracing route to bskyb-smtp.l.google.com [74.125.43.208]
over a maximum of 30 hops:
1 2 ms 1 ms 1 ms 192.168.1.1
2 26 ms 10 ms 40 ms 10.10.140.1
3 * 61 ms 38 ms brig-core-1a-ge-111-2567.network.virginmedia.net
[80.3.65.37]
4 34 ms 100 ms 59 ms gfd-bb-a-so-020-0.network.virginmedia.net [212.4
3.162.221]
5 20 ms 91 ms 87 ms gfd-bb-b-ae0-0.network.virginmedia.net [213.105.
172.6]
6 20 ms 25 ms 40 ms man-bb-a-ae3-0.network.virginmedia.net [213.105.
175.145]
7 112 ms 20 ms 49 ms man-bb-b-ae0-0.network.virginmedia.net [62.253.1
87.178]
8 51 ms 26 ms 92 ms tele-ic-3-ae0-0.network.virginmedia.net [212.43.
163.70]
9 56 ms 108 ms 65 ms 162-14-250-212.static.virginmedia.com [212.250.1
4.162]
10 * 52 ms 41 ms 209.85.252.76
11 208 ms 60 ms 146 ms 216.239.43.123
12 75 ms 100 ms 74 ms 66.249.95.133
13 134 ms 94 ms 93 ms 216.239.48.5
14 53 ms 38 ms 88 ms 64.233.174.53
15 42 ms 106 ms 73 ms 209.85.255.249
16 117 ms 91 ms 142 ms bw-in-f208.1e100.net [74.125.43.208]
Trace complete.
C:\Users\Paul>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Microsoft Windows [Version 6.0.6002]
Copyright (c) 2006 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
C:\Users\Paul>tracert smtp.tools.sky.com
Tracing route to bskyb-smtp.l.google.com [74.125.77.208]
over a maximum of 30 hops:
1 4 ms 4 ms 3 ms 192.168.1.1
2 114 ms 49 ms * 10.10.140.1
3 * 102 ms 70 ms brig-core-1a-ge-111-2567.network.virginmedia.net
[80.3.65.37]
4 162 ms 30 ms 66 ms gfd-bb-a-so-020-0.network.virginmedia.net [212.4
3.162.221]
5 93 ms 85 ms 128 ms gfd-bb-b-ae0-0.network.virginmedia.net [213.105.
172.6]
6 22 ms 191 ms 103 ms man-bb-a-ae3-0.network.virginmedia.net [213.105.
175.145]
7 180 ms * 47 ms man-bb-b-ae0-0.network.virginmedia.net [62.253.1
87.178]
8 35 ms 58 ms 26 ms tele-ic-3-ae0-0.network.virginmedia.net [212.43.
163.70]
9 43 ms 28 ms 27 ms 162-14-250-212.static.virginmedia.com [212.250.1
4.162]
10 99 ms 180 ms * 209.85.252.76
11 * 41 ms 32 ms 216.239.43.123
12 42 ms 44 ms 241 ms 72.14.239.199
13 103 ms 143 ms * 209.85.255.102
14 110 ms 64 ms * ew-in-f208.1e100.net [74.125.77.208]
15 45 ms 34 ms * ew-in-f208.1e100.net [74.125.77.208]
16 35 ms * * ew-in-f208.1e100.net [74.125.77.208]
17 61 ms 153 ms * ew-in-f208.1e100.net [74.125.77.208]
18 * * 35 ms ew-in-f208.1e100.net [74.125.77.208]
Trace complete.
C:\Users\Paul>