Ansett and the Boeing B737

[Stationair8]

Did the Ansett B737-200's have an EFIS cockpit?
Why did Ansett go to the Boeing B737 over other types?
What was the transition like from the Diesel 9 onto the B737?
How did the TAA DC-9 and Ansett B737 compare in service?

[Aerozepplin]

I work with a guy who worked at Ansett NZ as an engineer... could probably get some good stories from him. They had extremely early 737-100s, said they found a 60's German news paper hidden behind something once.

Heard about the heated battle to "buy British" when it was BAC 1-11s Vs 737s for Air NZ. What a stupid choice that would have been.

[tinpis]

Actually 4 737-100's.

[Anthill]

The Ansett NZ B732s were of a differnt stock to the -200 in Australia.

[Aerozepplin]

Actually 4 737-100's

Ahh... yes yes... indeed. A slip of the mind/keyboard.

[By George]

The Ansett 737-200 had steam gauges,VLF Omega and PDCS. A/T and FD108. The PDC was a sort of FMC without a brain. It had a rotating selector and gave basic CLB CRZ and DES info. The 300 had steam ASI, engine instruments but glass ND with FMCS.

[puff]

Some of the later AWAS machines also had the 2nd generation engine guages as well which weren't quite glass but not steam. CZT definately had them think another couple did as well. The ones i'm refering to are the ones that caused the confusion in the British Midland 734 crash in East Midlands.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

They had extremely early 737-200s
Actually 4 737-100's

In the early 80's, I joined a foreign aid project and found myself in uN Zud for a few years.

My recollection is that AirNZ had THE earliest 737-100 in service anywhere in the world. I think it was even painted differently from the remainder of the fleet.

Dr :8

[Aerozepplin]

I think they were production numbers of around 4-6ish from what this guy said. Although of course... I seem to be unreliable in my recollections.

[By George]

Ansett NZ had some very early 100's, ex-Lufthansa. ( odd, short fat things, without Kruger flaps). The first 200 flew on 29th June 1967 and the first 'Advanced' (737-200ADV) on 20th May 1971. Ansetts 200s were some of the last built, 81/82. Sorry to sound like an 'Anorak'. (must get out more).

[Capt Chambo]

The ones i'm refering to are the ones that caused the confusion in the British Midland 734 crash in East Midlands.

Getting slightly off topic here but IIRC British Midlands first two 737-300's were leased from Ansett in 1987 (Registrations were G-OBMA & GOBMB) They had a full EFIS set up but no speed tape initially, and an FMC (they may have even had the optional ANCDU). These aircraft had the older mechanical style round dial instruments.

Midland got 2x737-400's in October/November 1989, and they were equipped with the more modern electronic engine instrumentation. As you mention the engine instrumentation representation is often cited as a factor in the Kegworth crash.

For some pictures have a look here...

737 Flightdeck Geneology (http://www.b737.org.uk/panelcentreinst.htm#noneis)

[Buster Hyman]

The Ansett 737-200 had steam gauges,VLF Omega and PDCS.

And was it true that the crew shouted "Contact!" at start up?

[Taildragger67]

I'm sorry guys if I've missed something, but did Ansett ever operate 737-200s domestically in Australia on mainline passenger services?

[Peter Fanelli]

Yes, they did.

[3 Holer]

My recollection is that AirNZ had THE earliest 737-100 in service anywhere in the world.
Would that have been one belonging to NAC ?

I am pretty sure that Company had old 100 series 737s when Air NZ took them over.

[zlin77]

Ansett ordered The 737-200 as part of a bulk order of aircraft in the early eighties, they were intended to be a temporary type until the 737-300 became available, the first 767's were ordered at that time as well as the last of the 727's (200LR), I think Saint Peter negotiated an attractive deal in Seattle, I may be wrong but I think the 737-200's had either -15 or -17 engines, which made them little "pocket rockets"....

[tinpis]

Personally, I rather liked the "steam" guages on the -300
Used the ASI all the time couldnt abide the tape thingy/trend arrow and it only took a quick glance at the engine clocks to make sure they were humming along
(Now if it just had an FD108)
There was an option at the time for steam FD108 plus glass setup, the yanks used em. :ok:

[burty]

Air NZ/NAC never operated the 100. The first 737 to arrive in country was ZK-NAC, a 200. I think they had the dash 7 engines.

[c100driver]

NAC and Air New Zealand never had B737-100 series - ever!

NAC has mostly B737-200 Basic aircraft with JT8D-7 engines but also some B737-200ADV with - 9 engines when merged with Air New Zealand in 1978. They were all replaced with the last B737-200ADV off the line with the dash 15 and 15A engines, though they did short lease some dash 17 aircraft during the 1990 period.

The first time a 100 series turned up in New Zealand was when Ansett New Zealand showed up with the ex Lufthanza aircraft.

[airsupport]

Ansett ordered The 737-200 as part of a bulk order of aircraft in the early eighties, they were intended to be a temporary type until the 737-300 became available, the first 767's were ordered at that time as well as the last of the 727's (200LR)

Yes it was a big deal at the time, very well publicised both here and in the US.

WE'RE GOING BOEING................. :ok:

Mind you then Sir Peter later changed it all by going European to help his main love (TNT) and bought the A320, BAe146 and F50. :{

[Wally Mk2]

In another life (the early 80's) I was able to get inside Vh-CZA ( I think it was that rego) & was amazed at how 'modern' the flight deck looked, weird now I guess.
Now this could be totally wrong & probably is but I recall taking a photo of what i thought was a flight engineers station? Did these early B737's have such? I know the B737 was modeled on the B727 cockpit so it's possible. I also know the B767's did & we ( as in Ansett) where the only ones to have them ( I think) but just wanted clarification on the B737 from the boffins in here:}
I can recall also the first Airbus A300 Vh -TAA that did a low level fly by down rwy 27 at Tulla ( I think)....sad really, sad I'm that old!:sad:

Ah the good 'ole days where security was leaving yr push bike with the man on the gate to go wondering around the light planes, well 'twas so at EN anyway:ok:


Wmk2

[SeldomFixit]

"Sir" has been bought more often than earned - use it accordingly:mad:

[airsupport]

In another life (the early 80's) I was able to get inside Vh-CZA ( I think it was that rego) & was amazed at how 'modern' the flight deck looked, weird now I guess.
Now this could be totally wrong & probably is but I recall taking a photo of what i thought was a flight engineers station? Did these early B737's have such? I know the B737 was modeled on the B727 cockpit so it's possible. I also know the B767's did & we ( as in Ansett) where the only ones to have them ( I think) but just wanted clarification on the B737 from the boffins in here

VH-CZA was a great aircraft, as a DC9. :ok:

Later was a B737-300, but from memory the B737-200s were from VH-CZM upwards.

Definitely NO F/Es station on the 737s, I flew on them a lot including one trip to Vanuatu from Brisbane in the jump seat.

I was at Boeing when the Ansett 767s were being built, other Airlines had ordered the F/Es station but cancelled, the Ansett 767s were built with it then went straight back into the factory and were altered to convertible between 2 and 3 man Crew.

[airsupport]

"Sir" has been bought more often than earned - use it accordingly

IF you mean me? I could NOT stand the man, however it is a fact he was knighted, so it is common courtesy (something often lacking on PPRuNe) to use it. :ok:

[Wally Mk2]

Okay tnxs 'AS' . Was a while ago & come to think of it now you mentioned it VH-CZM was the rego of the B737.
Perhaps it was the A300 F/E station that I recall, back in those early days I used to sneak up into the cockpit of many a plane just to sit & drool:-) Now I see the A/C refuelers (what I once did) making more money than most pilots at the intermediate level, oh how the remuneration of flying has changed.


Wmk2

[airsupport]

NO worries. :ok:

It was indeed a long time ago, from memory the DC9s were still in service (some anyway) when the 737-200 was introduced, thus they were registered from VH-CZM and up, but the 737-300s were VH-CZA and upwards again as obviously the DC9 were retired by then. :ok:

[sixtiesrelic]

Question three….
Many of us were dragged off the Nine onto Fat Albert kicking and screaming. I certainly did.
The nine was a sexy lady while Fat Albert was like one of those dopey, sleepy, slobby youths you see sloping about with half an acre of underpants showing above his beltline and only able to communicate in grunts.
The Nine was a revelation when she arrived on the scene, specially for blokes flogging around in the Viscount.
The Viscount cockpit was a chaotic collection of instruments, knobs, brackets and controls bunged where there was enough room to fit and surrounded by unlined airframe skin.
The Nine’s cockpit was reportedly designed by pilots and the engineering notes were a thing of beauty with easily understood, photographic renditions of the systems and control panels.
You strapped a Nine onto your backside. She was like a beauty queen and an athlete.
A pretty thing on the ground and in the air and… could she go!
Slats with a very high extension speed and flapless at a beaut slow speed meant we could scream away clean in the climb and leave the 72 for dead as well as whacking out the slats and speed brake at high speed, pulling up on a zack. (That was the slang for a sixpence … five cent piece for you post decimalisation)
The 72 caught us up because of her M.84 cruise compared to our M.76 but we always could kill ‘em in the first and last twenty miles.
By the time ‘the fatman’ decided we were ‘going Boeing’ the Nine was a mature lady.
Still sexy, beautiful, unabashed, and receiving our great respect and admiration.
Her instruments were all steam driven and that magnificent annunciator panel was a mess of lights compared with the sensible Boeing philosophy of having the warning light near the switch or control, but the 737-200s had steam driven instruments as well.
Yes the Ansett Nines were CZA to L and the 737s started at CZM to Z.
Once the 300s arrived they started at CZA again.
Some time towards the ‘Going Boeing’, Omega was fitted to the Nines to aid us with not requiring a Navigator on the Vanuatu flights.
We were given a short school in the Omega and set loose.
My captain and I did a Brisbane Sydney leg for it’s first use the next day and brought our notes with us as we were pretty full of trepidation because our next leg was Sydney Vanuatu.
Of course Murphy’s law got us on the first leg out of Sydney, when the kindly controllers gave us a short cut out to 150 miles and the dreaded fence popped up on the screen.
You couldn’t get past that line till you did something to get rid of it. Mad reading of notes and button punching did nothing it stayed there not even blinking.
Once we got to 150 miles we were beggared as we couldn’t think how to get to the next waypoint so would have to go DR.
We had an Omega each and at about 130 DME by different methods the fence disappeared an we could track on the Omega again.
The fence was one of those Boogeymen everyone feared for no other reason than our peers said it was scary.
Can’t remember now how we got past it but it was easy.
We flew air Van flights each week end and CZF was painted in Air Vanuatu colours to jolly up the Island government.
That used to cause a fair bit of concern amongst the Aussie Passengers with Ansett tickets when we were operating her on the Ansett flights during the week.
One racially discriminating bloke busted into the cockpit at Canberra on entering the aircraft and asked us if we were Aussies. Many boarders dropped their bags as they wandered over the tarmac to get the camera out and get a couple of photos from different angles.
No red carpets and fences to keep them under control then while boarding.
From memory the term ‘Diesel nine’ came from the TAA blokes after Ansett were all Boeing apart from ‘the Mouse’.
Question 4... The transition?
The Ansett blokes mostly went to New Zealand to do the Simulator and wow! What a great old time that was.
Many of us moaned that it wasn’t like a nine and remembered things about her that probably weren’t as true as we said.
Never really liked the 73, or the Mouse.
Me I loved the DC-3 and DC-9.

Some people say I’m mad.

[1a sound asleep]

Quote:
Ansett ordered The 737-200 as part of a bulk order of aircraft in the early eighties, they were intended to be a temporary type until the 737-300 became available, the first 767's were ordered at that time as well as the last of the 727's (200LR)
Yes it was a big deal at the time, very well publicised both here and in the US.




The 732's were end of the line birds so rumour is they were cheap. Around this time TAA was getting the A300 so a lot of Ansett merketing was about WE'RE GOING BOEING................. or YOU CAN JUST GET ON A BUS

[Goat Whisperer]

and what was "the Mouse"?

[sixtiesrelic]

The Mouse was the Fokker Friendship

[frigatebird]

Sixties, loved the Air Van-9-Omega story. Air Pacific would have been using BAC 111 with just a Doppler Driftmeter in those areas then. Only ever used the cheap Collins LRN-70 myself west of Vanuatu. Used dual installation of something I forget now, Honeywell probably, east of there.

[airsupport]

Yes I know this topic is about 737s, but my all time favourites are the DC9 and the F27. :ok:

[tinpis]

Long time ago now
Didn't like the 737 much, busy bugger of a thing.
What was there to like about the the F27?

[zlin77]

The only good thing about The F27 was the cabin door to get out of the thing, suffered 1,800 hours in that noisy beast!! Probably accounts for a lot of my high frequency hearing loss now!

[Checkboard]

I started with Ansett on the 146, then transitioned to the 737-300 until the end. Never liked the 737.
Still stuck on it. :(

[A37575]

I'm sorry guys if I've missed something, but did Ansett ever operate 737-200s domestically in Australia on mainline passenger services?

Before Ansett got their first 737's they were trained by Air Nauru pilots on Central Pacific runs. I think there was a requirement to have at least 50 hours on type and so the Ansett pilots flew left seat ICUS.

[A37575]

My recollection is that AirNZ had THE earliest 737-100 in service anywhere in the world. I think it was even painted differently from the remainder of the fleet.


Drags out musty smelling old log book and notes I did the 737 ground course at NAC Christchurch in July 1977 including simulator. And on 1st August 1977 I underwent my first dual on the real aircraft B737 ZP-NAJ at Christchurch. It was a NAC aircraft. Three more dual flights followed all under a Captain Hutchinson I recall. I could have sworn that was a 737-100. I clearly recall the reverse thrust levers were so badly maintained that it took a super human pull to get the levers to move. The Air Nauru 737-200's which I then flew were well maintained and a pleasure to fly. But that old NAC 737 was a bit of a bomb..

[Dog One]

Didn Virgin operate a Ansett 737 after the collapse?

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

Nice post sixtiesrelic.

You must have a few more stories to share with the Pprune comminity.

[puff]

Dog one - yup they did VH-CZQ one of the AWAS ex British Midlands machines

Photos: Boeing 737-33A Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Virgin-Blue-Airlines/Boeing-737-33A/0522432/M/)

A380 - yup they had a white 300QC - VH-NJE

Photos: Boeing 737-3Q8(QC) Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/National-Jet-Systems/Boeing-737-3Q8(QC)/0040125/L/)

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

What did National Jet use the B737QC for?

[Concorder]

didn't VH-CZS go to DJ too?

[Zigzag]

Nope - Jitconnect for a while.

It's now in South Africa.

[Concorder]

fair enough!!

[Fantome]

Ah the good 'ole days where security was leaving yr push bike with the man on the gate to go wondering around the light planes, well 'twas so at EN anyway

Didn't need much of a 'by your leave' anywhere. Wandered through the gate at the old international terminal to perv on the 727 demonstrator on her world tour at Mascot in '63. No restriction walking around inside and out, unescorted, taking pics, yarning with the crew. Same with BOAC Comet, HP Herald (RR Darts). Most gates unlocked. You could walk across the tarmac to the grass near the old tower and poke around DC-3s, Hudsons , etc. parked there. Same at Fairbairn, Canberra Airport, at least on the south side. Never once saw anyone anywhere given the bum's rush.

The first tower at Mascot, incidentally, was a simple wooden affair erected in the late twenties, where Mr Burgess, the ringmaster, would superintend movements with his loud hailer and light. Around 1940 the first proper tower was built where TAA and EWA later had their terminal. That tower building still exists and if you know where to look, you can pick it out all but swallowed up in the QF domestic terminal.

[RampDog]

The 1940s tower you speak about was swamped by the development of QF's Domestic terminal over the years, but the view was never built out, unlike so many other buildings in Sydney Town! It had a perfect view of the arrivals on 16R and departures on 34L, and the occasional go around when the traffic jams occur!
Up until the end of 2008, it was being used by the QF POCOs (Port Co-Ordinators) a hardy and fantastic group of guys and girls who constanly monitor the endless disruptions to the QF domestic network and attempt to keep everyone updated on every single movement in the system!! They have since been relocated to the STOCC, a windowless central command bunker buried deep beneath the airport, where everything is monitored by CCTV ;).
I can't say what the old tower is being used for now, but with that spectacular outlook and a million dollar corporate fitout, it would make a great little office for a some QF executive :yuk:.

[Concorder]

hear hear to the work and dedication of POCOs all around the country!

[B772]

CharlieLimaX-Ray. The National Jet Systems B737-300QC was used for both passenger and freight operations, both domestic and international. I remember seeing the aircraft in South East Asia during the mid nineties with a load of passengers who were deported from Australia. The Captain was George Marlow. For those who know Warren Seymour of National Jet fame you may be interested in knowing he has shed kgs and is now a resident in the US.

BTW. I think National Jet had a dispensation to operate the B737-300QC as a freighter with up to 12 movements per week during curfew hours at SYD.

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

Thanks for that B772.

[Checkboard]

I thought the John Flynn, ex-Elders/IXL chief pilot (on their corporate 737, before they got rid of it) was hired by National Jet to fly their 737?

[poacher2gamekeeper]

For the record... I believe that VH-CZQ, quickly recovered from the Ansett Administrators and leased immediately to Virgin within weeks of the fateful day, was a GE Commercial Aviation Services (GECAS) owned bird not Ansett Worldwide Aviation Services (AWAS).

Note the 'non-standard 'Ansett' white painted fueselage and Virgin tail livery in the photos.

P2G

[A37575]

Actually 4 737-100's.

According to The Boeing 737 technical Guide, there were 30 B737-100's built with 22 going to Lufthansa, 5 for Malaysian Airlines, and 2 for Avianca. Nothing mentioned about NAC (New Zealand) or Ansett.

[Led Zep]

Ansett's first 737 was a -277, CZM delivered '81?

[Zigzag]

According to The Boeing 737 technical Guide, there were 30 B737-100's built with 22 going to Lufthansa, 5 for Malaysian Airlines, and 2 for Avianca. Nothing mentioned about NAC (New Zealand) or Ansett.
That would be because they were all second hand.

3 built for Lufthansa, 1 for SQ.

[training wheels]

According to The Boeing 737 technical Guide, there were 30 B737-100's built with 22 going to Lufthansa, 5 for Malaysian Airlines, and 2 for Avianca. Nothing mentioned about NAC (New Zealand) or Ansett.

It may have been the predecessor to Malaysian and Singapore Airlines that had the 737-100's, known as MSA or Malaysia Singapore Airlines. They split in 1972 to form Singapore Airlines and Malaysia Airlines.

http://i39.tinypic.com/2550x7k.jpg

[Got the horn]

NAC never had 737-100's. Ansett NZ had a few when they started.

[B772]

3 of the Ansett NZ B737-100's were built for Lufthansa They then went to America West before ending up in NZ in approx. mid 1987 where they stayed for approx. 4 years. A further B737-100 ZK-NED City of Nelson was operated by MSA as 9M-AOV and then America West as N709AW before being put into service on 6 Aug 1987 by Ansett NZ. The a/c was withdrawn from service on 27 Jan 1990 after being replaced by a BAe146-300.

[Stationair8]

Airfix have just released a 1/144th Ansett B737-200.

[Tmbstory]

Fantome:

Your post no: 46, shows some of the good old days at the airport.

Do you remember the old runway / strip, that made up the three for the complex, 16 and 34, 07 and 25 and 03 ? and not sure if the opposite 21 was in operation. The direction 03 seems to be in my mind although it could be that, plus or minus some?

Tmb