Use of QFE in Australia

[Cirronimbus]

I haven't flown for a while so I'm not up to date with all that goes on these days so please forgive me if this question seems a bit dumb.

A post in another thread (repitition of QNH) made me wonder about QFE. How common is the usage of QFE? Does anyone use it? If so, where, when and why?

Thanks,

Cn

[Andu]

QFE comes with a British passport. We colonials never saw the need (as so many Poms, particularly of the ex-RAF variety, apparently do) of having the altimeter read zero at touchdown.

We prefer QNH, where the altimeter reads an altitude that will let us know how high we are in relation to any hills we may be sharing the airspace with, and we seem to be able to cope with the incredibly difficult mental arithmetic involved in adding 1000' (or 1500' if you prefer) to the height above sea level of the field we're landing on when planning our circuit.

[DH 200']

It's mostly used these days in activities that require a reference to the ground rather than a common reference to each other like in the wide open sky. A skydiver is a good example, his automatic activation device uses the QFE to determine an approximate ground level. Also our Russian friends like to use QFE because they are still flying aircraft that were invented before radio alti's were.

[Ixixly]

Nah, skydivers just say everything in terms of AGL and the jump pilots just adjust it to a suitable Altitude for their use. Never heard a skydiver or jump pilot use the term QFE yet!

[Checkboard]

and we seem to be able to cope with the incredibly difficult mental arithmetic involved in adding 1000' (or 1500' if you prefer) to the height above sea level of the field we're landing on when planning our circuit.Most of the time that's true, however a couple of times it isn't - the Westwind CFIT accident at Alice Springs comes to mind.

Not advocating QFE, mind - never used it myself.

[aldee]

I trained with an aerobatic instructor who used QFE.

[Runaway Gun]

I trained with an aerobatic instructor who used vaseline.

[Frank Arouet]

I trained with an instructor who couldn't spell QFE.

[18-Wheeler]

The only time I've come across the use of QFE was when operating through Tashkent, in Uzbekistan. There's some rather large mountains around there.

[DrMatt]

I trained with an instructor who couldn't spell QFE.They didn't happen to spell it QNH, did they? ;)

[judge.oversteer]

Concur.

Moscow, St.Petersburg, Almaty, Tashkent, et al, all use QFE. No Probs, just don't use LNAV/VNAV after TX.
But of course you can always request QNH and is usually given!

JO.

[Super Cecil]

I have seen it used on night spraying in Oz, makes sense there when all you have is Airspeed, Turn coodinator (usually only the ball works) and Alt.

[judge.oversteer]

Sorree...
RTFQ!
Sheesh....

JO

[drop bear ten]

The gliding fraternity used to use QFE but I think they have been preaching QNH for 10 years or so.

[Wanderin_dave]

I use QFE for every flight, but never go above 300'AGL and always takeoff and land at the same place.

One day soon the boss will ask me to fly somewhere else and i'll probably smack into the ground trying to get the altimeter to read 0 on touch down....or i'll stall 400' up flaring out onto to clear blue nothing. :ok:

[Fubaar]

The Russians and Chinese still use it. For someone used to QNH, and with a really low transition level, it increases the work load a lot (and the chances of making a serious error).

Whilst overflying China and Russia, I've often thought how 'interesting' it would be to make a diversion with a serious technical problem to one of the more remote Chinese or Russian high altitude airfields (where they use QFE) and just to make it really interesting, have to do an NPA.

[18-Wheeler]

The Russians and Chinese still use it

FWIW I've been to a few places in China (Shanghai, Beijing, Hong Kong, Hangzhou) and none of them used QFE.
Other places there may well though.

[Murphy_Dog]

I got my PPL in the UK (living there, but I'm an Aussie), I havn't converted my PPL to Aus yet. (I won't get into my gripe about the lack of a club atmosphere here...it might be just where I'm located)

In the QNH was set when departing, but QFE is given before joining the circuit at all the airfields I visited. Also when taking off for circuits QFE would be given.

Personally, whilst it made things marginally easier whilst learning, I felt like ultimately it complicated things by adding another point of procedural error and altitude conflict.

Murphy

[Cirronimbus]

Hi All.

Thanks for the prompt and interesting replies. The reason I asked the question is because I recently visited the Met office in Darwin and was surprised to see they measure air pressure on the first floor of an airconditioned building rather than measure the actual atmosphere outside at ground level. They actually report QFE as the pressure at the level of the barometer and not at runway threshold level. This means, in Darwin at least, that QFE is out by about 0.5hPa. Probably not much to worry about if using whole numbers (but I'm not sure about that)? They reckon that the pressure readings are near enough so they're good enough. I don't know if they measure the pressure the same way at other offices; I would hope they take more care with other met readings though! Might be a good idea to remember this one when using pressure readings in Darwin? I wonder how accurate their QNH readings are? I'd hate to think dodgy pressure readings have had any thing to do with CFIT accidents; hope not.

[MTOW]

I've been to a few places in China (Shanghai, Beijing, Hong Kong, Hangzhou) and none of them used QFEI'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, (been a while since I flew those routes), but I think some of the western Chinese airfields (Kunming?) were still using QFE only a year or two ago.

[Pharcarnell]

Cirronimbus

Did they happen to mention the bar is actually connected to the outside world and the electronics has an offset to correct the height anomally?
They should have. QNH, QFE & QFF from there is all correct, only the bar display is slightly out of reality.

[Cirronimbus]

Hi Pharcarnell.

The bar in that office is NOT connected to the outside atmosphere. That is why I thought the way they measure the pressure was dodgy. The QFE reading is also wrong as they use the pressure inside the office on the first floor WITHOUT any correction to runway threshold level. I guess that since no one has pranged a plane on landing, that the QNH value is reasonably correct. However, the method of measuring pressure in Darwin is definitely dodgy. Perhaps it is only a matter luck no one has crashed (yet)? Makes me wonder if they measure the pressure the same way in other met offices?

[Clearedtoreenter]

I learned with QFE. The problem is you have to use QNH as well. There you are trying to work out when you should be on QFE or QNH, tying to work out the difference when you get to the airfied, setting and resetting QNH and QFE, 'err err errr, now what was that, QFE or QNH?...' the potential for errors is enormous. One of the silly things about flying in the UK. QNH:ok:

[MrApproach]

Cirronimbus I am not familiar with RAAF procedures but Airservices Towers use their own pressure and temperature instruments. They used to be inside a Stevenson Shield a few metres away from the TWR but things may have changed. The civil controllers are also met observers and do not rely on BoM for anything other than METARS and TAFs.