Ek Runners (absconders - not the Nike guys)

[flaphandlemover]

Hi gents,

just wondered, how many pilots did a runner within the last 3 month?
I heard about one guy in ZRH... and another one just didn't show up for duty.. his phone says ".......... MUGALAG":}

Can anyone confirm the story that a FO should have gone to drugtesting be4 flight but somehow managed to get on the ac in DXB. SMNC contacted the cpt that the fo has to get off.. what he did.... but he never showed up at EGHQ.
He bought Himself a ticket with another airline and flew off instantly.:uhoh::uhoh:


And by the way... there are @ least two more coming up by the end of the month.

[max magic]

I know of 2 guys who decided not to return after unpaid leave last summer

[Fart Master]

Apparently 5 septic tanks didn't come back from leave last summer, only rumour tho:ok:

Have seen 4 villas vacated in DSO within the last month

[Fred Garvin M.P.]

The rumor being told in recurrent ground school is that the guy ended up in the terminal for three days before he was found.

[Bypass ratio]

What do you reckon would be the funniest/costliest runner to do?

I reckon a 9 day BKK/SYD, departing when etisalat has cut your mobile off and your bank is chasing your credit card/loan repayment. Leave the villa lights on and the water running. Run up a huge bill in the Bangkok & Sydney Hotel (unpaid of course), change the cost index while the other pilot is not looking. Cruise at M0.87 while the other guy is asleep, maximum reverse and finally, call sick in Christchurch on the turnaround?:D

[ab33t]

Yes more and more seem to be putting their running shoes on

[Panther 88]

Alot are on, just not laced quite yet. The clock is ticking.

[cerbus]

The FO showed up drunk for a IAH flight. The operating captain did him in. He was removed from the flight and was told to go take a drug test in headquarters but went home instead through the terminal and way of taxi.
The company to everyone's surprise did nothing maybe because they could not prove anything.
As hard as everyone is working and as depressed as everyone is about the drastic turn southward of Emirates is it any wonder that we have pilots showing up for work drunk. Keep recovering!

[flaphandlemover]

still: NO drinkdriving

NO DRINKFLYING :=:=:=

no matter how far south EK stands now....

[Kamelchaser]

Sorry Cerbus,

Have no idea about the circumstances behind that incident, and I'm sure it's not all that simple, but there is simply no excuse whatsoever for turning up drunk, or smelling of alcohol, or whatever.

Regardless of how bad EK acts, none of us can condone that. That sort of behaviour just gives management more ammunition to treat us like kids.

Not cool.

(actually I re-read your post and you don't condone it...but my comments still stand re the FO..no excuse)

[trimotor]

Concur. And it's never as simple as it sounds.

[cerbus]

I couldn't agree with the above any more. There is no excuse for showing up drunk for work.
I will say that the captain should have told the FO to call in sick or he would call the company. We all make mistakes and deserve a second chance or at least a way out. If he does fly drunk though the offending pilot does not have much to stand on.
That p#&$k local captain in SIN that did the drinking Canadian FO in should be given the treatment. Again not that I condone what the FO was doing but I would love to see that captain and enlighten him.

[muppet in the sky]

Whats the point in doing a runner if you are arriving to the aircraft drunk??? With this record, you definately destroyed any chance of joining another carrier :uhoh:

[411A]

That p#&$k local captain in SIN that did the drinking Canadian FO in should be given the treatment.

Why?
Do you all of a sudden condone drinking pilots at one airline, but not the other?

No wonder EK management has problems with some of their pilots...it would appear that a few act like children,
I expect EK will have absolutely no trouble whatsoever attracting new First Officers...now, nor in the future.

[The Zohan]

With this record, you definately destroyed any chance of joining another carrier

he was never tested positive....so doing a runner was the best option. preatty clear thinking for being drunk :D

tz

[SOPS]

Once again good old 411a hops in, and shows he has no idea what he is talking about.

Cerbus was NOT condoning drinking at any airline.....

[cerbus]

411A just for the record EK is having trouble getting pilots even from ****e airlines. Not that many pilots want to come and put up with the crap that mangement is so good at delivering. The tossers wanted to hire in Dec but could not get pilots that could come in time. If the pool was deep they could get pilots anytime from anywhere.
I don't know what you mean by EK pilots act like children. We are quite "whimpy" but we do the job even when we are nackerd.
The SIN incident happen to EK crew in a bar in SIN on a layover. If the local captain knew how to deal with mistakes he would not have involved the company because we all know how the company acts towards its hired help. Again I don't condone showing up for work drunk just so you get that message 411A

[sexdriven]

Regarding the SIN incident, no matter what anybody says of the local capt who reported the incident, the FO deserved what he got. I am sorry guys but drinking before a flight, and that too in public, deserves a strong reprimand. Now some guys will go on about we all mistakes but the fact is that this was not a mistake but gross negligence.

[IXNAT]

You're right SD, BUT should not have the captain exercised good judgement, gone to the F/O, take him aside and tell him to close up shop and call in sick and then check that he did. Coward calls the company and washes his hands of it. Not at all condoning f/o behaviour but what does that say about the captain.

[411A]

Not at all condoning f/o behaviour but what does that say about the captain.
It says he was doing his job properly.
I have seen slightly tipsy pilots in the hotac just prior to duty, and suggest they call in sick.
One argued about this, so he was reported, and eventually terminated.

He was a fool.

[trimotor]

Great thing about this forum is that 411A has been on my 'ignore list' for years and I no longer get wound up by his irrelevant crap...so nice to see he's posted but don't have to respond...

[cerbus]

Granted a pilot that shows or reports to work tipsy or drunk is a fool to put it mildly. What most of us a Ek are trying to convay is in the civilized world we look out for each other. When the local captain sidled up next to the drinking FO at the bar the captain should have said you need to call in sick now, not at report time and he could check that the FO did indeed call in sick.
The captain ordered sparkling water and said it was champange and pretended to drink with the FO and get all in the info about the FOs flight. Then called the company. A totally behind the back underhanded approach that people from this part of the world are so good at.
I can't understand the 3rd world mentality where you screw your neighbor without reservations, and I probably never will understand this mentality no matter how long I live in the sand box. We all work for the slave masters so let's look out for each other and help a pilot out when we can.

[trimotor]

FO made an error of judgement, no mistake.

Capt is a d*ck-head of the first order, not to mention a barely competent nasty pig of a man. That's another issue.

[PorkKnuckle]

That p#&$k local captain in SIN that did the drinking Canadian FO in should be given the treatmentWhy?
Do you all of a sudden condone drinking pilots at one airline, but not the other?


You have no idea what a **** that fella is, A, or you might not've opened your yap. The story is, he'd been shunned earlier on. His motivation was not what you think in your dreamworld. Seems you've mis-judged the situation YET AGAIN.

[halas]

Reporting sick down route means you have to ring SOS. They in-turn send a physician to visit you, and will undertake a diagnosis of your ailment and report back to SOS who then tell FDM what's wrong.

halas

[tbaylx]

You guys realize that the canadian F/O was breathalyzed in Sin and when tested an hour before duty blew less than half the limit? That fact was conveniently ignored by EK during the whole proceedings though and not told at the pilot meetings....

[Up to here]

Allegedly the F/O had already been removed from his rostered flight quite a while before he was even breathalysed; in addition the replacement F/O had been contacted by the company to ascertain his fitness to operate the flight instead. No preconceived ideas then.

[411A]

The story is, he'd been shunned earlier on. His motivation was not what you think in your dreamworld.
Nevertheless, it does not change the underlying fact that the F/O was apparently drinking prior to duty.
Repeat, he was a fool....and got caught.
Makes no difference who turned him in.


Take chances, get caught...usually a bad result.

[Trader]

411 ---your the fool!!!! The 'assumption' was that he was drinking (in both cases). Unless a test is performed it all heresay. PERIOD!

[4HolerPoler]

Thread creep guys - if you want to discuss the SIN incident open a new thread.

[411A]

411 ---your the fool!!!! The 'assumption' was that he was drinking (in both cases). Unless a test is performed it all heresay. PERIOD!
Rubbish.
Thread creep guys - if you want to discuss the SIN incident open a new thread.
Superb idea...over to you, Trader.:rolleyes:
IE: DO you condone drinking adullt beverages prior to duty OK...or not, in conformity with laid down regulations?
Yes, or no?:rolleyes:

NB.
You're...not ---your.
Numpty.:}

[Trader]

411-----I don't think anyone condones drinking prior to duty. But in this case all we have is a story (incomplete at that) that claims a captain offloaded an FO for being 'drunk'. Drunk is a legal definition and there is no way in hell that he knew whether or not the FO was drunk.

Now, if the claim is that he smelled alcohol or had other reason to believe he has been drinking then so be it - the claim is then proven by a blood test. Until it is then it is all heresay.

My only issue is with the immediate conclusions/accusations that are made. But I agree--if proven to be drunk then he deserves what he gets - just call in sick.

[411A]

...just call in sick.
Not so difficult, now was it?
I would agree...case closed.

[takingover]

With apologies to 4HolerPoler, a further comment.

Some time ago I spoke to the flight attendant who was sitting beside the F/O at the bar in SIN. According to her they stopped drinking more than 13 hours before sign on. However, he was drinking a rather heavy brewed beer (don't know what). She was sitting beside him because she is best friends with the F/O's fiance & knew him very well.

The captain in question had spent the evening badgering her & a number of other F/A's for their 'company', shall we say. She said that he appeared rather miffed that she was laughing & talking to the F/O in question & wouldn't accept his advances.

Overnight, after the call from the captain, the company booked a room & employed security & medical staff for the following morning. When the crew presented themselves for pickup, the F/O, the F/A I spoke to & another F/A were sent to this room for breath testing. There were no blood tests done. She & the other F/A passed the breath tests, but the F/O failed. This was over an hour before sign on. The F/O was tested again 30 mins before sign on & was OK, & again at sign on time & was once again OK.

Evidently, the manufacturer of the breath test equipment stated that there is no way someone can be over as far as he supposedly was & then be under 30 mins later. They believe that the equipment was either faulty or was 'spiked'.

From conversations I have had with others it appears that EK management will take the line of the person who makes the first report & it will take more than a bulldozer to change their minds - more so if it is a local who makes that first report. I have also spoken to other pilots who have been called into the office with no explaination & then been asked to explain what happened on a flight a few weeeks before. Then they are accused of lying & withholding information because their story does not match the report that management have recieved. I have seen this in other airlines over the years, but not as bad as at EK & not where the outcome is losing your job.

Be careful out there!

[Sheikh Your Bootie]

Actually Habibis, the rules are that you are "In Uniform" and are a representative of the company, and if you blow positive, you are deemed to have failed the test. Not my rules, just the way it is in EK. Sign on in the civilised world applies, not at EK. As to whether the equipment is faulty, there is no right to confirm that the equipment was or has been checked for accuracy, not in the EK's mind.

As for the Captain that grassed the F/O, well most who have been here more than 5 minutes, know his ever so slightly tarnished reputation. Nearly lost his job for some fraud a few years back.... Must be looking for brownie points :yuk::yuk::yuk:

Back to subject now mods. :E

SyB :zzz:

[Trader]

taking over----knowing the FO I can confirm your story (you beat me too it). The trick in this situation, should it ever arise, is to immediately ask for a blood test as it is the ONLY conclusive method for proving your innocence. In most countries this would be a given (ie. UK with the AC pilot).

[5star]

May I add my contribution to the SIN stint.

The captain who reported the FO is a local and one of the *s**oles in the company. Initials are K. middle name like our dear old friend from the series married with children. Lastname first letter as the most popular car made by the number 1 selling german car manufacturer in Wolfsburg...
His favorite layover is BKK...famous for easy p**ss**s.....:ugh: :suspect:

I can confirm the story above and I still feel sorry for the FO.
The point is he was NOT drinking 12 hours before duty. He accepted a breath test before the start of his duty. NEVER EVER DO THAT.
He should never have accepted his resignation and taken a lawyer in his home country.

[sheikmyarse]

in the process..

[Payscale]

The company policy is "you may not drink alcohol 12 hours before a flight".
GCAA limit is 0.02% 8 hours before a flight.
So you have 4 hours to get sober..
Cant be done!
Your teenager crew does know this. Dont fall in this trap.
Make it easy... DONT drink on 24 hour layovers.
Take up knitting or whatever.
Be safe....

[Saltaire]

That's ridiculous, I need a couple drinks to unwind and relax. Worked for the last 20 years, not changing a thing. EK will NOT change this part of my life. Don't be scared into a dark corner payscale, everything in reasonable moderation.

[Payscale]

Good for you. I dont need a couple drinks to unwind. Nothing to do about being scared or living in the dark.

[wizard1]

I am rarely moved to post. Reference 5stars post a few up. I had the misfortune to fly with this guy way back in the 310 days. Honestly one of the most utterly revolting people I have ever had the displeasure of meeting. I was 2 weeks in ek and this :mad: had just checked out in the LHS. I will never forget one of the TRE's (still here by the way and a nice guy)pulling me over as we shipped out through the very old briefing faciltity and suggesting in the strongest possible terms that if I had ANY doubt at ANY time to grab it off him and not give it back. Inspiring stuff for your new hire! Subsequent events and trips proved this to be justified.

On a personal level this a**hole is on the same par as the one running afghanis over with a truck. The events described sadly dont supprise me one bit.

A disgrace to our profession, country and human kind.

[GoreTex]

and who is this guy?

[flaphandlemover]

K A G...

His pic on the portal is in a dishdasher and when i flew with him, he gave the cabin crew a f... hard time...

I liked the way he communicated... the finest CRM you can find on earth. He should become a CRM trainer. He is a raw model how to treat and talk to everyone :ugh::ugh::ugh:

got fired twice already (if i'm not mistaken.. could be three times though)

went to HH and cried on his knees to come bk.... What a w....r.

Is after every skirt he can get....

A RAW MODEL OF OUR PROFESSION (joke):ugh::ugh::ugh:

[5star]

More about SIN: During the layover our dear local friend apparently tried his luck on our of our hosties, only to be turned down by her. :} :} :} I love it.....
The looser then called FDM and took his revenge out on the WHOLE crew by accusing them of drinking within 12hours from duty (which they were not!!!). Result: all had to take the breath test at check-out. The FO was the victim of his act as he had the most beers and did not refuse to be tested 2.5 hours before the start of the flight to BNE....

Beware if you get paired with him. It won't be me, that's for sure!!!

[FlyingCroc]

Very sad indeed. Lets suppose, a guy that drinks a lot, lets say 4 beers (330ml/5%) an hour, so 2 hours before 13 hours limit, he would have a BAC 0.026, after 15 hours, at check-in he should be 0%.
He probably underestimated the alcohol content, however if 2hours later he was 0%, why was he charged?
I think you cannot be careful enough, it is so easy to missjudge, I guess 24 hrs layovers it is better to stay away or have just very few light beers.

[TooLow]

What fleet is this guy on?

[jinglied]

He's on 777.

The SIN "incident" was brought up at the Commander's Conference last year. TCAS's response was..... "That's the kind of Leadership we want!!"

Aren't these guys special....:ugh:

Jinglie'd

[Kamelchaser]

I have to concur with the above comments. One of the three worst pilots I have flown with in 28 years in aviation.

Shocking flying skills, atrocious CRM, racist and sexist thrown in for effect.

After flying with him as an FO (where, amongst many other things on a 45min sector, he managed to flare at 50 feet in a lightweight 772), I vowed never to fly with him again. As a Capt, I stand by that position; I will never operate with him on a ULR flight. My family will certainly never fly on a flight he is on if I can help it.

People like this simply should not be in charge of a motor car, let alone an aircraft.

End of strongly opinionated statement.

[MTOW]

Who could forget his usual habit of having the radar tilted so far down he used to try to avoid **ing islands in the Bay of Bengal?

I thought the man in question was on a final warning letter quite some years ago and told that one more substianted complaint from an FO and he was out.

I supposed the management weenie who put that letter on his file has long been replaced and the "aarrr" current management doesn't read personnel files written by non-"aarrrr" management.

The man in question is the only FO (when he was still an FO) I have ever fronted while away on a trip before a sector and given him a choice - change your ways and change them big time or I'm delaying the flight and calling Dubai and asking them to send me a new FO. To his credit, he changed his ways for the rest of the trip. However, it would seem he reverted to his usual ways pretty soon afterwards. (It was the last time I ever flew with him, [I suspect that was his doing, because I'm sure he was as unkeen to fly with me again as I was to fly with him], but I'd have to agree with the sentiments of those who've posted before me.)

[kennedy]

The guy is an idiot!

I had the misfortune of being his FO on a trip 3 years ago.

Most unpleasant flight I have ever done,his CRM is unbelievable, his flying attrocious, argued with ATC all the way there and back, even tried to disregard a heading instruction to avoid prohibited Airspace.

Had to apologise to a Qatari crew in the hotel because of his antics, they thought he was the FO on the flight, he was that unprofessional!

Closest I've come to walking of a flight deck (or smacking the :mad:)

Will never fly with him again!

Mate of mine got called out to fly with him couple of months ago, was telling me of this prat of a captain he just flown with, and some of his antics, and was surprised that I was able to name him without prompting.

Unfortunately, he is protected so his sacking will never stick!

Beware, life's too short to screw your career on one of his flights!:mad:

[Murrenfan]

053723
Cheers

[alwayzinit]

his picture seems blocked on the portal.....................or is me being a lundite?

[lowstandard]

I am sure his next trip to the US (if he flys there) will involve some mild discomfort if the proper authorities are informed :E.

[2000GT]

So what about the runners?

[EK Snorkel]

they thought he was the FO on the flight, he was that unprofessional!


hmmm, kennedy, is that what you think of EK FO's? "That unprofessional!?" Please explain..... Not my general experience so far ....:ugh:

[blorgwinder]

Had to apologise to a Qatari crew in the hotel because of his antics, they thought he was the FO on the flight, he was that unprofessional.

Well mate right up to there you had a credible post. 3 years ago you flew with him, so you would have been an FO there. Fast forward three years and you are either in the LHR, in which case if your comment is reflective of your vuews on teh guy sharing the office with you then you need a CRM course and a gyro re-set.

If oyu are still in teh RHS then you need to seriously ask yourself if you are command material..

[6000PIC]

If this " local " EK 777 Captain is as bad as several of you say , is it any wonder that Emirates has lost the confidence of so many people in this industry ? May I offer that the training department , standards, management , in fact you all are to blame ? Just doing nothing and allowing such an individual to retain such a responsible position is tantamount to negligence. It`s very easy to ask not to be rostered to fly with him , much , much easier to do " the runner. " I`d rather have expected more , " protected , priviledged , local arab type or not. Definitely time do think about that runner .....

[5star]

May I ask you a question. Have you ever worked in the ME?

While I have to agree with you that our reputation is going down the drain, may I ask you not to generalize... It's not because EK is ruined by the actions of a few brown nosers in management (more and more locals btw) that everyone is a looser on the line...
Most guys I flown with come from well established airlines (well at least that was the case >3 years ago --i dont know about the quality of the intake right now-) and do their jobs professionaly and are a joy to fly with. So to put us in the basket with our mgmt is way too easy. If you open your mouth you get a written warning or they look at you like you come from another planet...:rolleyes:
About doing a runner here... I always have left previous companies with handshakes so not really my style. Don't forget that most guys have families here so it means it's a few more who have to do the running with you...

[kennedy]

Blogwinder, ( and any other first officers that took offence)

My apologies, it must be consectutive 90+ hour months, my grammar was incorrect, I, in no way believe that this gentleman's ( and I use that term very loosely) behavior represents the standards of 99.9% of our FO's who are excellent and a credit to the company (It's a pity the company doesn't see it that way and insist on employing DEC's instead of promoting them!)

[sanddude]

See that they looking voor vp safety again. What happend to the guy who got the job about a month ago? Do whe have a new record holder here?:rolleyes:

[Fart Master]

Different position..............

[6000PIC]

5Star , whether one has worked in the Middle East or not , don`t you get what I said ? Or , just like a few years back are you doing the comparable " just following orders " routine ? Either way , my point is that something should be done and if the " system " prevents that , well , what a sorry state to be in.

[Payscale]

OBOGS

Its the same CAR as the UK. I have it on some handout for a UAE Air Law exam long time ago.

I tried to find it on UAE GCAA web site, but you need to subscribe to their service.

Anyone out there with the correct reference? 8 hours/0,02% blood alcohol.

Thats way more stricter than EK, and therefor a trap to avoid.

[Oakape]

Interesting story for those thinking of skipping town.

Tuesday 15 Dec, 2009

He rented a car to get around Dubai - but now Roddy Bassett is one of the world’s most wanted men. The UK-based holiday salesman is the latest Dubai expat to end up on the Interpol wanted list - for owing less than dhs5,000 on a rented Peugeot.
“It’s just so ridiculous. I’m not a criminal and there I am on the wanted list with terrorists and drug lords,” he told 7DAYS.
While most countries contact Interpol - an international network of police forces - to track down major criminals like serial killers and terrorists, the UAE hunts anyone who has left the Emirates owing money.
The zero tolerance policy has left more than 160 former UAE residents rubbing shoulders with Osama Bin Laden and some of the world’s biggest criminals on the Interpol wanted list.
Of these, 112 Dubai cases are for fraud - a crime that includes owing money on apartments, cars or credit cards.
Bassett, 39, was working for a Media City marketing company when he rented the Peugeot in 2005.
He said he paid every dirham due until the month he left Dubai but would have had extra charges for cancelling his rental contract. “I will be the first to admit it - I didn’t handle it very well. I drove it from my place in Jumeirah to a friend’s and left it there,” he said.
Last week, he turned himself in to police in Exeter, England, after his father informed him that Interpol was looking for him.
He said his elderly dad emailed him from Scotland with the news last week.
“He said: ‘You’re wanted by Interpol…would you like to elaborate?’ I was stunned,” Bassett said, adding he is broke but will “absolutely” repay the rental company.
A spokeswoman for Devon and Cornwall police confirmed that Bassett had been released after Interpol confirmed the case concerned a rental car bill.
Interpol told 7DAYS last night that it had discussed the case with Dubai police and that all charges against Bassett may be dropped if he paid a fine of approximately dhs 4,000 and paid off his car rental debts. However, he said there must be no other charges against Bassett if the plan is to work.
Interpol also said that Bassett could contact it directly if work out a solution.

[fatbus]

Thanks for the link.

(e) A crew member shall not:
(1) Consume alcohol less than 8 hours prior to the specified reporting time for flight duty or the commencement of standby;
(2) Commence a flight duty period with a blood alcohol level in excess of 0·2 promille;
(3) Consume alcohol during the flight duty period or whilst on standby.

I think you will find its no drinking within 8 hrs of duty and at report for duty the max is .2, standard stuff

[FlyingCroc]

He quit drinking 13 hrs before flight and had 0% at check-in. Why was he fired?

[IXNAT]

Because those in charge said that when you report in the hotel lobby for one's trip.....you are on duty, no matter if it takes the bus two hours just to get to the airport. They figured if you're in uniform, you're on duty. Plus they had to cover their man's (term used loosely) backside when he called it in.

[EGGW]

IXNAT has nailed it as far EK is concerned, they couldn't give rats about CAR-OPS or anything else, if you are in Uniform, you are on a company duty. End of story. Its corporate policy.

EGGW.

[mensaboy]

I'm not condoning being in uniform and over the legal limit for alcohol but isn't it strange that EK uses this 'policy' when it comes to everything other than Flight Time Limitations?

I was once called for a duty, reported for work, only to find out that they had messed up and I was not required. No problem, ****e happens, so off home I went. (about 4 hours after waking up for work).

Then I get a call from rostering telling me they were assigning me an R23, which was about 4 hours later. They did not agree that I had already been on duty because.... as they said, I didn't actually 'do' anything. Needless to say, I refused and told them I would not answer my phone.

DUTY is defined by EK, as ''any continuous period during which a crew member is required to carry out any task associated with the business of the company.''

Yet, EK does not credit when we normally arrive at work to perform our duties nor do they consider the time we are carrying out tasks after chocks-on! They only credit one hour prior to ETD and ZERO time after chocks-on.

But when it suits EK's purpose, for something such as ignoring the CAR's or whatever, they revert to 'company' policy. My opinion is that they should not 'have it both ways'.

No wonder Unions are not allowed in this ****e-hole country, haha!

[CAVnotOK]

Great post Mensa,

Probably the most relevant, and insightful post I have read on PPRUNe for a long, long time.

CAV:D:D:D:ok::ok:

[Oblaaspop]

Actually Mensa, you highlighted a common misunderstanding....

FLIGHT Duty Period (FDP) ends at chocks on, however DUTY Period ends 30 mins AFTER chocks on.

So if you chock on in Dubai at 2200, you cannot be on duty again until 1030 the next day (12 hrs 30 mins after chocks on).

Just a small point, but commonly incorrectly applied.:ok:

[Sheet House Rat]

Mensa is spot on regarding the convenient double standard regarding when you are "on duty".

To the best of anyone's knowledge, has anyone refused an alcohol test until actual duty on time (1hr prior to departure), passed the test (like .00%) and suffered any repercussions??

Taken to its ultimate and completely illogical extreme, the guys from Nemesis Testing could coceivably be waiting for you in your Audi, or outside your hotel room...:*

SHR

[mensaboy]

Oblaas,

I completely understand the fact that our 'rest period' is contingent upon blocks-on plus 30 minutes. But until 2 years ago, EK had considered blocks-on plus 30 minutes for the relevant duty day and not just the subsequent duty period. Why the change?

Perhaps one or two other ridiculous airlines on this planet, now take this approach to FTL's but I am unaware of any.

What YOU don't understand, is that this company....... EMIRATES AIRLINE...... is taking whatever liberties they wish, without due regard for Fatigue and by definition, Flight Safety.

FATIGUE and long term health effects of Emirates employees are not even a consideration for our management, unless of course, the truth becomes known to either the general public or the ineffectual airline authority in the UAE.

Let's face facts..... they don't give a damn. Most employees at Emirates Airline leave within 5 years, so the long term health effects are inconsequential to their thinking, plus the fact that NO ONE is actually regulating the obtuse and illegal interpretation of EK's FTL's.

COME ON!!!!!!!!! Variations to the normal flight time limitations are actually considered acceptable in this hell-hole? Take a serious read regarding Variations because the only allowances are made for......... time off AFTER the flights. (ok fine, there is a small margin before the flight). But how the hell does 'time off' after doing a Variation, help a pilot perform his duties......... DURING the variation?


I understand the decline of Dubai in general and I voiced those concerns long before it was generally accepted. (wish i was as smart at Dooner or and that other guy who professed things so succinctly, long before it was common knowledge) I am not pissed off because Dubai is such a crap-hole place, I am mad because Emirates Airline has turned into such a meager existence.

We can't even spend time with our friends and enjoy the good aspects of Dubai, BECAUSE OUR SKEDS are so crazy. I am actually considering leaving this place solely based upon that fact.

When you pass the age of 40, this place is a death sentence. I look after myself, have a relatively stress free life (thanks to my family) yet there is no doubt in my mind that this existence is not conducive to harmony or happiness.

I occasionally feel like punching the minority of my colleagues who are living in a dream world, and then in the next sentence they tell me their wife is leaving them! Darn, it is becoming more and more difficult to be so 'upbeat' on each on every flight.

In spite of my postings which might seem negative, I am a happy dude. But I have to admit, it affects me too much when I consistently fly with 'unhappy' pilots. They generally walk off the plane and slap me on the back, saying they appreciated me listening to them about their concerns without judgement. Oddly enough, this has more of an negative consequence to me, because I actually feel for these guys. I can't imagine bringing my wife and family here only to discover we hated the place and the company. Ouch.

Fook Me..... ANYONE who defends Emirates Airline's practices with respect to employees is either a moron or a kiss-ass wannabee. Without exception!

[mensaboy]

Muttley, you said,

''Hey you noticed! Armed with this knowledge, you should now be able to relax a little and enjoy life outside of work because you understand why they do what they do.''

I do enjoy life outside of EK and I totally agree with you that life is what you make it.

But are you suggesting that since I recognize the lunacy of this company with regards to Fatigue, that I now should just be able to overcome it and be happy with my lot in life? Sorry, not so easy for people who actually feel for their colleagues. Admittedly, I have it easy compared to most pilots here, due to my personal circumstances, but even I am finding this job is becoming too much.

I could deal with stupidity from our management except for the following;
1- We're talking about flight safety
2- Long term (let alone short-term) health effects are NO consideration for our illustrious leaders. They don't care because they are all like ED and TCAS and are only considering their personal benefit.
3- Not one person in management understands the true aspects of crossing time zones, flying back to back night and day flights and working schedules that are not conducive to proper rest
4- Not one person in management cares..... even if they were capable of understanding!
5- 15% of pilots at EK are willing accomplices to the lies

My goodness, the only reason this planet is in peril is due to complacency or a willingness to accept poor leadership. EK is going to fall at some point. It might be next year or it might be in 10 years. But it will surely happen.

It might take a massive disaster such as killiing 300 people or it might be a general decline due to poor management. But whatever the experts degree to be the cause, it will happen because we have management who only have their personal interests in mind. Sadly, pilots must take some blame as well, even though the entire deck of cards is stacked against us. But every time we go into discretion, accept a change from rostering, or simply knuckle under to pressure, we all take some responsibility for the inevitable demise of this airline.

Newbies joining this airline are in for a rough ride. Most of us already here here, have experienced at least some good times, and benefited accordingly, but the poor bastards coming here now are in for a shock. My heart goes out to them.

[Oblaaspop]

Hey Mensa, chill little buddy!

I am not in any way defending EK, but just correcting your obvious lack of knowledge on Ch 21.....:E

If you are concerned that you are not getting paid or receiving 'credit' for post flight duties, then fair enough. However in terms of legal rest etc it IS taken into account, so what's the problem?

Incidentally, whilst I accept that they are horrid and completely knackering, Variations are widely used and accepted in the industry. My old UK outfit regularly used Variations to fly across the pond on 'Bullets'. In fact Virgin Atlantic 'invented' the Florida 1 Variation which was submitted and approved by the UK CAA which is now used by many other operators.

Again I'm not saying its big or clever what EK are doing to us fatigue wise, but it is a current fact of life!! Just keep putting those ASR's in if you are knackered and hope for the best........

[Oblaaspop]

Indeed badly worded, however the 'Voyage' report is only concerned with just that.... the legal 'Voyage'. The reason the GCAA et al is ONLY interested in FDP is to do with the use and calculation of discretion for which the 30 mins after chocks on has no relevance.

The 30 minute thing is purely a scheduling limitation and is applied in exactly the same way as it is in the UK C A P on which the UAE GCAA predicates (copies) its FTL's.

Where the whole system is cheating us (and dare I say it where I agree with Mensa:yuk:) is the 'FORCED' early report ie finish the brief 75 mins before ETD.

Its a legal grey area, but I suggest one way around it would be to take it into account should you CHOOSE to exercise discretion and reduce the amount you are willing to use by the amount of minutes you turned up early for at work! Easy........:ok:

[Buscat]

Apparently the lowlife to which you refer is on the EK yahoo groups and regularly sends messages begging others to do its flights. It calls itself "Captain Captain" - a double title as befitting a tosser of its magnitude.

While its happy to stab any of its fellow crew in the back, its not above asking them to help it out when its roster doesn't suit it. All in an eloquently phrased and polite dialogue of course. :rolleyes:

It has on many occasions demonstrated itself to be a vile, scaly scumbag of an individual. If you're on the Dark Side fleet and it asks you for a ROSTER SWAP, tell it to F**K OFF BACK UNDER THE ROCK IT CRAWLED OUT FROM.

[GoreTex]

Bus,
are you talking about the Captain formerly known as tartan guy?

[flaphandlemover]

Any truth:
30 resignation heading 4 Turkish?

more to come...

[jinglied]

To all..

I, like most, am not sure how many are "running" to Korean, Turkish, or anywhere else. However the company knows almost exactly how many are, at least, applying to other airlines...

For most airlines we will apply to, we need to get a "Letter of Certification" from the GCAA office here in Dubai. When they (GCAA) get a request from an EK pilot for one of these, they advise EK. One of the ladies in Boeing office had her computer screen exposed at a most opportune time recently. There on the screen was an email from GCAA stating a request from one certain EK pilot for a letter that was addressed to Korean. The Company has a very good idea of how many are attempting to jump ship.

..Just FYI

Jinglie'd

[Kamelchaser]

I do have to laugh at Ed's weakly (sp) propaganda message to the troops..United Airlines (is it them or another US carrier..not sure, can't be bothered re-opening the no doubt virus ridden mail) announces another round of furloughs...and some subsidiary of Lufthansa making pilots redundant (who cares!!)

..but wait..while Ed seems to be very keen on telling us how bad things are (outside of EK)..there doesn't seem to be any mention of;

1. Korean's plan to double its 400 strong expat crew,
2. Parc Aviation actively recruiting experienced 777 drivers for Asiana
3. Turkish Airlines recruitment
4. German Freight carrier recruiting 777 guys.

mmmm.....would seem a little one-sided on the industry report Uncle Ed.

Still, I guess you think we're all stupid enough to beleive your propaganda.

I think someone should do another youtube version of Hitler in his bunker..shouting at his staff for allowing all those disloyal pilots to leave and join other operators. (Hitler and sleeping pilots...YouTube - Hitler gets angry with pilots for flying over airport (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0_9TIi76a4) )

[Marooned]

Love to see the Bunker with TCAS, ED, AAR, TCDM et al...

Yes Ed is economical with the news, what else can we expect from a bare faced liar.

The carriers mentioned are looking for exactly the type rated pilots EK have shafted so often and have taken for granted. These airlines are targeting EK.

EK itself cannot find anyone of a decent enough quality who is type rated to join and are forced to accept those with much less experience than was previously the case, just ask recruitment.

EKs pool is dry and its experienced pilots the source for others. The aircraft types EK operate have generally faired better in terms of job security and they are the same types seeing increased demand worldwide. 777, 330/340/380, EK has them all, treats the pilots who fly them like sh*t making the option to leave one worth serious consideration.

EK will have to go all out just to keep the level of pilots it has to replace those who are going to leave. There is no flex, no extra cover its all been taken away.

[Buscat]

are you talking about the Captain formerly known as tartan guy? No that's that other champion of humanity, Captain America. I'm referring to that vile, inbred creature, "Captain Captain" - that's what the Boeing chaps reckon it calls itself on the swap group.

The thing which when rejected by all, female AND male, took revenge by reporting the Canuck who was drinking. All in the interests of safety and responsibility of course...

[seadouble]

What happens if you leave EK and break your training bond before the three years?

What would happen if after breaking your training bond, you flew into the UAE with another carrier.
Does EK have any legal actions available working with UAE customs?

[three eighty]

What happens if you leave EK and break your training bond before the three years?

If you pay back any outstanding bond then no problem.
If have any outstanding debt here, you will be frog marched off to jail as soon as you clear immigration

[flaphandlemover]

you will never clear any immigration in DXB...

straight into jail.. and don't forget to keep your cap on your head and the tie on....

[GMC1500]

I see you've thought about this alot, Bypass? Very funny post, loved it.:ok:

[GMC1500]

thanks for that, murrenfan, was about to ask for it. He's going on my no fly list for sure, along with the single one who is already there.

[GMC1500]

Maybe this is on thread a bit more, but I was called this morning, at 0730, to ask if I'd take a Xxxxxx flight departing at 1030. Funny thing is, my stby didn't begin until 1200. :confused:
I declined...:yuk:

Would this have happened at your previous company? Not at my 2 previous, both ALPA represented, not ever. In fact, my rest period clock would have been reset to -8hrs from when we got off the phone.:zzz:

Destination deleted to avoid potential punitive action by identifying the poster. 4HP

[flaphandlemover]

any info about the latest resignations?

probably there will be a biig one coming after the great news...