What to do at the holding point?

[kimwestt]

Waiting to do some night circuits (at a VERY busy YSBK) the other night, and lined upbehind another airplane, when suddenly, no warning or coms, the pilot in front of us decides to do a u turn. No warning, no radios, and taxis partway onto the grass to get past us, in the opposite direction to taxying aircraft. We have to move onto the grass to let him/her/it pass. Can't see whether there are any obstructions in the grass. Me thinks it was a home built, with HID taxi/ldg lights, which very effectively blinded us. Had to ask same a/c to turn same lights of whilst same a/c was in the runup bays, facing oncoming taxying aircraft, with those hugely bright lights on full.
I ask - what is going on with the teaching of airmanship, courtesy, and common sense.
On another item whilst waiting, (as in but wait - there is more!!) a Mojave VH-IT? pushes into an already full circuit from a 5 mile final, basically demanding that all and sundry change everything so he could fit in. What a saad example of airmanship.
It really is time that some fundamental basics of airmanship, courtesy, and common sense get rammed home.:ugh::ugh:

[18-Wheeler]

Don't feel comfortable going onto the grass?
Just get on the radio and say no, I can't move, you're going to have to turn around and/or wait.

[Mick.B]

Get on the radio and ask what his intentions are. Then make a decision. I would not go onto the grass if you cant see what is in it.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Even better is, "but my last review was just three circuits!":ugh::ugh::ugh:

[The Green Goblin]

Imagine being in the Piper Mojave coming into a busy GAAP at night when the tower is closed with a circuit full of bug smashers!

The last thing he wants to do is join the circuit and follow a lighty doing 80 knots on downwind!

I flew a Chieftain and Baron into a GAAP during the day a few times on ferry flights from up north and even with the tower operating it was disconcerting to say the least. You can't fly a wide circuit because some clown in a 172 is flying 747 size circuits leaving you few options. The slowest you can safely go with gear and flap is 110 knots with weight on before you loose all your forward vis and get yourself in serious bother with engine failure considerations. Rather than join upwind outside tower hours and let down into the pattern I'd be trying it on from 5 mile too as I'm sure most other guys in the same situation would also be also doing.

The landing light saga is pretty ordinary, he could have entered and rolled through on the runway or backtracked if available!

When you leave the GAAP environment and get out into the real world of aviation generally the smaller types accommodate the larger types where possible (even if they have to orbit on downwind or get out of the way) especially if it's RPT. Perhaps the same courtesy should be extended at the GAAPs outside tower hours.

[Horatio Leafblower]

Saw a Gyro sitting on the holding point (the ONLY holding point) at a country CTAF the other day, completely blocking access to and egress from the runway.

After sitting at the holding point for 5 minutes warming up and doing his runups, he shut down and hopped out (still at the holding point) to get his rotor turning.

With an aircraft on base turning final, old mate makes a radio call, enters and backtracks :rolleyes: and forces a go-round. :ugh:

The best bit was that, with the C182 now climbing through 300' on upwind to the right of the RWY, the Gyro climbs like a bastard and turns right directly in front of the other aircraft :eek:

Incident report lodged for that one :=

[das Uber Soldat]

yeh, private pilots are by far the worst.

My pet hate is the bankrunners taxiing with strobes and lights on.

But then i'm just a muppet instructor, what do I know :P

[FRQ Charlie Bravo]

Wait wait wait a minute; so you're telling me that there are other pilots out there? I thought I was the only one.

Sorry about doing that u-turn and taxying past you the other day, I thought that you were just the ground crew waiting to sweep up my rubbish (that HJ's wrapper I tossed out the storm window).

Sorry too about conducting the straight in and pushing my way in front of the "circuit" (whatever that is). As I thought that I was the world's only pilot I just assumed that all those lights were shooting stars.

~FRQ CB

[GADRIVR]

Ah Das Uber.......so we meet again!

"But then i'm just a muppet instructor, what do I know :P"

Haven't the foggiest! Care to enlighten us?:ok::E

[The Green Goblin]

I dont think thats good enough. I along with all of my coligues have been joining busy circuits and GAAPs in 200kt+ machines for years and wouldnt just push through because we cant get our spacing right. Its not THAT hard.

Well you certainly won't be flying 200kt + machines at 200+ knots into a GAAP. It's not the speed thats the problem but the fact that you can't go slow enough! I for one wouldn't want to be cruising around a GAAP circuit in something like a Kingair or a Conquest with C150's around at night!

I'd also love to know what 200+ knot machine you are flying into a gaap. Particularly when you have stressed on here many times that you are a flight instructor :E

[The Green Goblin]

Its part of the challange and at certain ad's you have very little choice but to join the circuit rather than strait in. .

If you fly at CTAFs where 737 size aircraft operate they 99% of the time track for a straight in approach via the GPS RNAV FAF. Most gentleman give way to them, they don't get upset and say they pushed in and how poor their airmanship was.

Very few 200kt+ machines slow down to less than 110 in a circuit yet we all manage, we have to.

Yes, most decent folk let them make number one, or hold on downwind as necessary. Once you are in that 200 KT machine you will know what I mean. I had to follow a Jabiru in recently - that was painful!

I'd still love to know what you think you are flying as you say I along with all of my coligues have been joining busy circuits and GAAPs in 200kt+ machines for years

If you follow my posts you'd see I was an instructor

I can tell, I can also tell you DON"T FLY 200KT + MACHINES

[Captain Nomad]

Maybe the aircraft VNE is 200+ so is considered a 200+ machine... :E

The Mojave (if it is one of the ones I'm thinking of) could possibly have been carrying a medical priority and been trying to get on the ground quicker. If so, medical priority could have/should have been announced on an initial radio call.

Turbo prop drivers will always get nervous when a GAAP tower is closed and they are coming in to an occupied circuit. It is a challenging environment with dangers not easily detected by either pilots (try closing fast on a C152 from behind trying to judge spacing with only a white tail light and a beacon on the C152 blending in to ground lights) . A bit of airmanship/give and take goes a long way to preserving your own safety and the safety of other aircraft and potentially those under the path of falling debris...

[YoDawg]

Maybe the aircraft VNE is 200+ so is considered a 200+ machine

Maybe the prop tips move at 200Kt+

[ab33t]

Maybe he had tundra tyres that needed testing

[morno]

Its a bit difficult for 4 172 to hold in a circuit at night while they wait for you to make an approach.

It is? :confused::confused:

How is flying a 1,000ft circuit over the aerodrome difficult? Mate in all honesty, you're just making yourself look more like a goose every time.

morno

[GADRIVR]

Having been on both sides of the argument I'd put forward the idea that if it gets a bit tight.......training aircraft should give way out of courtesy.
Nine times out of ten a quick radio chat will sort everything out.
As an aside, the only time I've ever had a problem related to an arrogant private bloody minded private pilot tosser. Wouldn't give way, took his own sweet time, didn't answer radio call etc. Again, a quick chat on the ground sorted him out....don't think he'll be doing it again!!!
I find that the instructor types are more than helpful and the students?....well they try hard but you have to make allowances for them.
Now........where's Das Uber, I need a pointless argument!:ok:

[Howard Hughes]

Its part of the challange and at certain ad's you have very little choice but to join the circuit rather than strait in.
Straight in is the first choice, it is safer, it saves time and in the long run money!

I will always do a straight in over joining the circuit and if I do join the circuit it will be straight on to downwind! (well at 45 dgerees anyway ;) ) I have never experienced a problem mixing it with circuit traffic even when the circuit traffic has been doing contra circuits. By listening out on the CTAF early and building a picture, you can vary your speed to fit in with other traffic. It ain't that hard, but of course that might be misconstrued as 'airmanship'...:E

[Super Cecil]

How does it go after Tower hours these days with say four or five Aircraft in the circuit, do they keep the radio calls to a minimum? Some spots with instructors telling the students "To do the right thing" and make four or five calls each Aircraft and every circuit flown. With any more than two Aircraft doing circuits you can't get a call in.

[das Uber Soldat]

I'm right here! Dont fret.

Unfortunately I agree with you though. Whenever i'm buried in the circuit at night, or inbound PSP/TWRN and there is metro/other traffic around that I know will have difficult dealing with my little plane, ill have a quick chat and arrange something, whether that be a go around when infront of them, or an orbit etc.

Its all useful training for the student and reduces the chance ill end up as FOD in a metro engine :ok:

[Ando1Bar]

One of the biggest airmanship issues at YBAF during night circuit operations is no or a late inbound call from the IFR guys. Pretty hard to get the student thinking about how everyone's going to fit in when a PA31 makes in inbound call 2 miles from the field. Even worse when there is no call until joining the circuit. It gets even better when they join downwind for 28 when everyone else is doing circuits on 10.

You have two radios - use them!

How does it go after Tower hours these days with say four or five Aircraft in the circuit, do they keep the radio calls to a minimum? Some spots with instructors telling the students "To do the right thing" and make four or five calls each Aircraft and every circuit flown. With any more than two Aircraft doing circuits you can't get a call in.

Yes, I make the student complete the required three radio calls each circuit. But I give them a kick up the backside if they are non-standard and taking up too much time.

Where appropriate, I will continue 'to do the right thing'. What would happen if one of my solo students hit another aeroplane after only base calls (for example) had been made all night? How do I defend myself at the coroners inquest? "Sorry sir, but I know better than the AIPs".

[das Uber Soldat]

no andobar, you'd say "Super cecil knows better than the AIP".

:rolleyes:

[The Green Goblin]

Its a bit difficult for 4 172 to hold in a circuit at night while they wait for you to make an approach.

It's very easy, the 172 which is number one in the sequence does not descent and flies base rejoining upwind at circuit height. Turboprops and piston twins are pretty quick and will usually keep the speed up if they need too to squeeze in. Perhaps the 172 at number 2 in the circuit might have to follow number one. Certainly doing these types of maneuvers are valuable for your students to add to their bag of tricks when they are let loose in the real world. The fact that you think it's a bit difficult and are their instructor is a bit of a worry. This is also why traditionally charter operators hated hiring instructors.......they thought they knew everything and could be told anything! (And I was an instructor myself)

A little bit of careful planning makes plenty of room.

Sometimes it is pretty hard (as you should know) to predict when/how ATC are going to send you into the GAAP zone. They vector you here, clear you there and hold you here sometimes taking up a lot of your excess mental processing capacity (especially the single pilot guys) as well as flying a high performance aeroplane. The last thing you want to do is talk to the CTAF traffic who have marginal radio telephony skills at best (if you can understand the accent) and often don't do what they say they are doing or give you incorrect position information/intentions.

Also how one to make a strait in approach into an AD where App wont allow an instrument approach unless IMC

You don't need to be doing a published instrument approach to make for a straight in approach........:ugh:

and hold you in CTA until 8 nm then only allow you down to radar lowest safe until you're within the circling area?

When you fly a pressurised turbine aeroplane you can do all sorts of cool things. You don't have to be as nice to the engines as pistons and can go from cruise power to flight idle whenever you desire. You can also fly a 1:1 profile which means at 25NM you can be at FL250, loose 1000 feet/mile and still get in. At 5 mile you can still be at 5000! If you are at 8nm at a typical 1600-2200 feet radar lowest safe it is not to hard to select flight idle with a 2000 feet/min rate of descent to intercept the PAPI. Most of the time you won't even need flight idle, just select flap and gear point the nose down with a high ROD and you will be on profile in less than 30 seconds!

Lets not also forget you can descend from the LSALT when established within 5nm in the PAPI negating the need to remain at the LSALT until the circling area. If you are held at LSALT until the circling area as mentioned it is not difficult to get on profile quickly in a pressurised aeroplane. (2.66NM Cat B you can still be at 2600 feet)

[Super Cecil]

"Sorry sir, but I know better than the AIPs".
I have to yeild here to knowledge as I'm not an avid reader of AIP's (Not enough pitchers!) but what are the "Required" calls as against "Recomended" calls? Has this changed recently?

[Mainframe]

Straight In Approaches are a time saving and energy efficient alternative to joining the circuit in the conventional manner.

I use them where possible but within the published requirements.

Both the AIP and Jepps spell out the requirements quite clearly.

I dont have AIP references but Jepps, "Air Traffic Control", page AU-720, para 6.7.6 starts off:

"6.7.6.1 Only pilots of radio equipped aircraft may conduct a straight in approach at NON-towered aerodromes.

A straight in approach should only be used when it does not disrupt the flow of arriving and departing traffic.

Pilots conducting straight in approaches must give way to other aircraft in the circuit."

The section goes on to detail all the requirements.

The very last para, 6.7.6.4 d. says it all:

"an aircraft established on base leg or final approach for any runway has priority over an aircraft carrying out a straight in approach."

A straight in approach is a "concession", you cant disrupt the flow of traffic, you cant do it if an an aircraft is already on base or final,

you must be lit up like a Christmas Tree, you must listen to whats happening in the circuit,
you must make announcements, and communicate with circuit traffic.

No matter if you are punching into the aerodrome in a Metro, a wound up Baron etc, a straight in approach is just a concession, NOT a right.

Despite all that, a bit of common sense and good manners (also called airmanship)
will generally see a good outcome for the inbound and circuit aircraft.

Instructors, by the nature of their role, are teaching conventional circuit procedures to a student
and generally do not usually get to engage in straight in approaches.

On the other hand, pilots engaged in Charter or Aerial work often feel compelled to hurry up everything, hence the straight in.

There are many non towered aerodromes with Dash 8 or jet RPT wanting to make straight in approaches.

They dont have right of way by virtue of their speed or size and in places like Horn Island, Mt Isa etc,

instead they will tend to negotiate with other traffic to achieve the desired outcome.

It is regrettable that pilots who once trained at a training aerodrome forget that, when, as in the case mentioned, they try to force their way in.

Again, I'm all for the benefits of straight in approaches, but the rules and airmanship need to co incide, particularly at a training aerodrome.

[Ando1Bar]

Cecil,

AIP ENR 56.4:


To achieve the greatest degree of safety it is essential pilots of
radio equipped aircraft monitor and broadcast on the CTAF by 10
NM of a non-towered aerodrome.

Note: Carriage and use of radio is required at aerodromes depicted
on charts and in ERSA as CTAF <frequency> (R). At these
aerodromes pilots must commence monitoring and broadcasting
on the CTAF prior to and during all operations in the vicinity of the
aerodrome.

Pilots should make all of the recommended broadcasts unless operational
considerations preclude them from doing so.

[Super Cecil]

Got all that Ando, what I was after was the "REQUIRED" calls as against the "Recommended" calls. What do the AIP's say? Some say it's doing the right thing making 6 or 7 calls a circuit. Do that with anymore than two Aircraft doing close circuits and you can't get a word in, that's not the right thing.

[The Green Goblin]

GG I think you're really stretching the friendship to push strait into an AD with 4+ in the circuit at night without any priority and you're asking for trouble. If something happens no one will cover you.

It's called airmanship mate. Do you think it would be pushing the friendship if it were at Karratha with a 737 inbound and 4 x 172's in the circuit? Most of the time you guys can lower a stage of flap and slow speed cruise letting the fast aircraft complete the approach with minimal disruption.

Especially when its perfect reasonable to just join the circuit. Argue the point as much as you want but at the end of the day its outside the regs.

The regs say existing circuit traffic have right of way. But the existing circuit traffic can use some common sense and give way. Think outside the box for a moment. I used to do this when I was the instructor with student doing circuits at away airfield. I didn't just continue on my way saying "hey, I have right of way and the regs are on my side"

I have to admit if this argument came up a couple of years ago I would be right there laughing at what I'm saying but at the preservation of my career I do what the AIP and Ops manual says.

I'm sure your ops manual does not cover this situation and neither does mine.

What if you were flying circuits at a RPT CTAF and heard a 737 call inbound and shortly later established on a 5 mile final. You shrugged turned base and continued on your merry way forcing the 737 to conduct a missed approach from about 2 mile into a congested circuit. What if the 737 pilots had asked you if they could make number 1 and you declined as you had right of way. What if they hit a light aircraft in the circuit who was not transponder equipped and their TCAS didn't pick it up? I bet CASA would be closely reviewing your interpretation of the regulations and I bet there would be some changes to the regs quick smart.

I don't demand right of way when I am the aircraft joining a straight in approach, but most of the time I am given it by the piston aircraft in the circuit from a common sense perspective.

Talk to your CFI and see what their opinion on this is. I bet it's the same as mine :cool:

[splinter11]

In my opinion everyone on here should listen to green goblin because all he ever does on here is make a lot of sense on a number of issues. I have never flown anything bigger than a cheiftain, however i think alot of these guys who have never flown bigger than a 172 would be more understanding if they had experience in a larger aircraft, and in a commercial operation.

[j3pipercub]

Hey everyone, let's play pick the instructor that dreams of flying a twin...we will accept self nominations....

And as usual, GG is a straight talkin, sense makin, kiwi hater :)

j3

[The Green Goblin]

We WERE talking about your typical GAAP come CTAF-R at night with Turbines and pistons in the same cct. Not the oddities Rocky, KA, BRM, AY etc which typically speaking are much larger, can accommodate a much larger cct (god at KA you could fit 5 on downwind alone) and dont have high cct or RPT traffic at night. Rather 1 or 2 of each.

I was just giving you an extreme example so you could see how stupid you sound.

I'd be giving way to turboprops in the GAAP too outside tower hours. I'd even be slowing down or maneuvering as required to accommodate the piston twins.

I think the CFI would be a little confused as to why I'd come to him when my FIR lapsed 3 years ago.

I think you're common sense expired 3 years ago.

And you still have not answered the question what are you flying?

Only recently did you state that you are a flight instructor. J3, time for some investigative PPruning :cool:

[Ando1Bar]

what I was after was the "REQUIRED" calls as against the "Recommended" calls. What do the AIP's say? Some say it's doing the right thing making 6 or 7 calls a circuit. Do that with anymore than two Aircraft doing close circuits and you can't get a word in, that's not the right thing.

You've no doubt seen it, but AIP ENR 1.1-44 might be what you're after - "SUMMARY OF BROADCASTS - ALL AIRCRAFT AT NON-TOWERED AERODROMES".


During a normal circuit the only calls you would expect from the training traffic would be the downwind, base and final calls. The only additional calls from the inbound traffic would be the inbound call, joining the circuit (or the straight in calls) and clear of the runway. With a bit of common sense and not crapping on during transmissions there shouldn't be too many problems on the radio.


I might be mistaken, but no where in the AIPs does it mention recommended vs required radio calls. The ongoing theme is:


Carriage and use of radio is required at aerodromes depicted on charts and in ERSA as CTAF<frequency>(R).


The GAAPs we are talking about all become CTAF(R)s once the tower closes.

Hey everyone, let's play pick the instructor that dreams of flying a twin...we will accept self nominations....

J3, not sure who you mean but I've been both the IFR twin inbound at night to a 'GAAP' in CTAF hours (4-5 Cessnas in the circuit), and the C172 conducting circuits. As a result I agree with most of the posts I've read, such as GG's, but I thought a couple of posts ago it was time to stand up for the circuit traffic, highlighting some of the airmanship issues we experience.

[Ando1Bar]

Nope, I'm with GG.

As a result I agree with most of the posts I've read, such as GG's

[Wally Mk2]

Personally I feel that straight in App's are dangerous. They where not allowed once upon a time & for good reason (except for the RPT boys under certain conditions, ground agent etc @ AD ) & now that we have multiple Asian students out & about it's even more dangerous, so no not for me I rarely do them & if so only at a CTAF/R.
As an Eg of arrogance existing in ALL sectors of aviation not just the boys in toy planes. I was in the circuit of a CTAF/R some time ago now conducting a std circuit & keeping a close eye/ear on a certain RPT A/C whom tried to barge their way in via a 5 mile final, (long story but they essentially lied about their position/time)end result? He did an orbit at around 1-2 miles from the threshold (somewhat low obviously) as I was on final for crossing rwy, & to think there could have been a couple of doz bods on board!:ugh:.
I could tell a zillion stories as most could but some learn everything but remember nothing!

These threads usually end up a chest beating match & I guess that's human to do so especially with pilots but at the end of the day Airman-ship is the major concern, it pretty much no longer exists sadly. Courtesy is a rarity these days whether at the holding point or on final. I/we go from looong paved back rwy's to short dirt strips, we see 'em all, there's the arrogant at every port!

Roll on Class D where applicable, whoopy!:)


Wmk2

[VH-XXX]

We have an issue at a local field where there is no dead side due to para ops on one side of the field.

As a result if someone on base forces a go-around of someone on a straight-in approach things get very nasty because the go-around aircraft (subject to their height) has nowhere to go to avoid the para ops, another guy on base or the guy that caused the go-around.

In the real world, the guy about to turn base casually extends his downwind leg to let the faster straight-in aircraft go first. It's common courtesy or professional courtesy depending on how you look at it.

I give way (when I'm not required to) based on a number of factors, including the speed of the aircraft and the operating cost. If it's a $100 a minute S76 Sikorsky I'm happy to give way or a larger than normal hired aircraft that someone is paying $5 a minute for on his second mortgage :)

[Trent 972]

XXX, big difference from your analogy, to 5 training aircraft doing night circuits. I'm all for helping each other out but even in the story you relate, the aircraft doing the straight in arrival, has already f*cked up by virtue of being on final when an aircraft is about to turn base. Sounds like a piss poor effort by the guy coming straight in. Where will it all end, when the rules are ignored because of 'how many dollars you pay to fly' is the deciding factor.

[Awol57]

I find this rather amusing, as when the tower is open, if I can't fit the big guy in he joins upwind at 1500' then flies a circuit. I have not yet seen one not be able to do it. They all get on the ground eventually.

[snoop doggy dog]

Flew in and out of Bangstown for about 4 years. In Metro (2/3/23) and Kingair.

Take a pill, take a number and join the circuit when you can. Being in a rush and thinking because you have a bigger plane gives you right of way is Bullsh!t and dangerous.:mad: You should be more experience than the guys doing their night circuits and have an appreciation for safety. So what if you are 5 minutes later on the ground. This is new to these fellas in the circuit at night. They are nervous and doing the best they can. You arrive when everyone is out doing circuits, join the circuit, keep your eyes out for everyone and land when you can. Don't be a phuckwit and think your the man 'cause you plane is bigger or whatever! :mad:

I have had about half a dozen go-arounds on 11C during tower hours when cleared for that runway. Always from students over shooting the centre-line for 11R. Big deal. They are trainees learning at a busy airport and bound to make mistakes. You should be more understanding and realise that this is/was a potential threat because you should be more experienced, professional and have the big picture in sight. ;)

The chest beating, macho man, little d!ck syndrome (my planes bigger) is dangerous and your cowboy tactics are not needed in Aviation anywhere :mad:. You think that this is just specific to a few airports in Australia? Try China sunshine. The planes are bigger and most of the time they speak Chinese :p Thanks for TCAS.

A few of you guys need to get over yourselves quickly. Your flying in a bigger plane than others around you "Bravo!" :ugh:

From an ops manual a few years back, to use when making a decision and in the following order.

1. SAFETY
2. PASSENGER COMFORT
3. SCHEDULE
4. PROFITS

A lot of people get 1 and 4 mixed up! As long as 1 was ok, it was good to go. If it wasn't, no go. :ugh: If you could get all 4 in that order of priority in your decision, golden. Didn't always happen, however, SAFETY always did. :ok:

You guys ask yourselves, if it is SAFE pushing in and putting unnecessary pressure on beginers where they will get more nervous and more tunnel vision? Get over yourselves, get on with it and be SAFE! :ok:

[Ando1Bar]

Trent, meant to say thanks for your comments back on the previous page.

Most of what is being said previously make sense, but it all depends on the situation. As Snoop Dog says above, the pilots of the faster/bigger aeroplanes shouldn't have the mentality that everyone should get out of their way, and I don't think that was the point Green Goblin was trying to get across.

A bit of common sense and courtesy from everyone in the circuit at night ensures a safe outcome. There is no correct solution for this topic.

Work together folks. Trying to slow a 180 kt + machine down to join the circuit (either overhead or on final) is bloody hard when multiple Cessnas are doing circuits. Teaching Bloggs to fly at night and get him/her ready for solo in 2 hours, with faster aeroplanes joining/departing, is bloody hard as well. Throw in an inconsiderate pilot from either 'side' and the problems begin.

Threat & error management = airmanship = common bloody sense.

Situational awareness + common bloody sense = everyone back on the ground safely.

[Awol57]

Eovictim it's ok I am a controller at a GAAP :ok:

That's what I meant by if I can't fit you into the circuit you go to upwind. I haven't left one up there yet :ok:

But seriously this convo has morphed away from the busy GAAP environment to talking about aerodromes where you have a lot more space to work the situation out. A bit of communication from all parties normally sorts anything out I found from my old flying days.

At the GAAP I work at there is a limit on the circuit at night as well(or should I say out of tower hours), so it should never get so out of hand that one can't land. Admittedly the biggest that comes in is either a C550 or BE20/PC12 but it seems to work ok even we aren't there.