Opportunity with start-up in Hawaii - NZ company

[Krazy]

I have scoured the Internet and this forum as I figured others would already be talking about this, but can't find anything, so here goes...

I applied for a position with a NZ company starting up in Hawaii for passenger and cargo work. Recently I received the response telling me the interviews are coming soon, lots of applicants, only 10 positions. The kicker is that in order to get the job, there will be a payment of USD5,000 (to cover tickets, immigration, etc) - which I can partly understand, but then also a USD20,000 bond (not fully explained). Now, in any other industry, and with my previous business experience, I can only assume this to be a scam where someone is trying to get my money to help him do whatever he wants (possibly even start up an airline in Hawaii). But I'm wondering if this sort of thing is 'normal' in the aviation industry and how does one ever determine if it's legitimate?

Obviously I haven't handed any money over yet, and I doubt I will unless I can be seriously convinced this is legitimate.

Has anyone else received this email? What about other similar situations?

[framer]

A bond is fairly normal if they are giving you some training. Whats the a/c type and training involved? ie do you do a sim to convert your licence or is it a ZK registered a/c?

[NOSIGN]

on first read that sounds absurd!

I suggest do some meticulous research before you commit.

[tinpis]

Beware of Kiwis in Hawaiian shirts bearing gifts
Beware of Kiwis in Hawaii selling you anything
Beware of Kiwis in Hawaii smoking pakalolo
Beware of Kiwis anywhere selling you anything
Beware of Kiwis

[waren9]

Listen to Tinpis.

He's been been scammed by Kiwis before.

W9.

[The Green Goblin]

Is it my turn yet? :}

[puff]

A/C listed was PA31s, thats one hell of a PA31 endorsement. Sounds like his plan to get started includes all his funding coming from his pilots. Persons initials aren't GH are they ? Sure some people in Port Mac can tell you about business dealings with kiwis in aviation !!

[waren9]

Listen to Goblin too.

He's a big Kiwi hater from way back. Worse than Tinpis.

Think his wife took off with one or something. Or maybe a Kiwi undercut him for a 182 job somewhere. Cant remember which.

W9

[NoseGear]

Tinpis IS a kiwi..:eek::E:D

[Artificial Horizon]

Here is the ad:

"New Zealand owner of 2 Piper Navajo twin aircraft based in Hawaii is seeking 10 qualified or trainee New Zealand pilots for a new ‘start-up airline’ (regular inter Island service, freight, training and charter services in Hawaii). The company will sponsor your USA Work Visa, provide all inclusive meals & accommodation. If you have single or multi time or just passionate about learning to fly and have the right attitude we can provide you work and further training. You need to be highly motivated and a team player. To find out more about this fantastic opportunity, apply online or send brief CV "

I thought that this sounded really dodgy on first reading. Now that I have heard about the financial contribution the candidate has to make I am convinced. Be very very careful, perhaps offer to get yourself to Hawaii 'which you can do for much less than $5,000usd'. If they insist on getting the $5,000usd themselves then give it a wide berth. Bond of $20,000 is massively over the top for a PA31.

[toppledgyros]

newsflash

has anyone found out more information regarding this operation out of hawaii?. I wounder if the man who is setting this operation up actually has any aviation/airline experience?, our just the previous owner of sterling sports!!!?:ok:

[biggles7374]

where on the web was the advert listed?

Sounds a bit suss to me but it may be worh finding out more, particularly in relation to the bond.

Thanks

Biggles

[Howard Hughes]

Tinpis IS a kiwi..
Not anymore, with the amount of time he has spent in the NT, he is Territorian through and through...:ok:

They even like Kiwi's up there!;)

[Stationair8]

Krazy, bend over grab ankles and wait for shafting to occur.

Rule1 in avaition, if it looks like pooh, tastes like pooh most likely is pooh.

Rule2 refer rule 1

Rule 3 refer to previous PPrune posts.

USA is not a nice place to be caught without work visas etc.

[Peter Fanelli]

USA is not a nice place to be caught without work visas etc.


You'll be right, just tell em you're mexican.

[Artificial Horizon]

It was/is being advertised on SEEK - New Zealand's no. 1 jobs, employment, career and recruitment site (http://www.seek.co.nz) under aviation or commercial pilot. The bit that makes me really suspicious is the fact that he says you don't even need to have a licence to apply just an interest in becoming a pilot.??

[toppledgyros]

The ad actually asks for traineed or training pilots. Mostly likely looking for pilots with time on type and or instructors to carrying out the other halfs training, then use the newly trained pilots as f.o's in a 2 pilot crew operation. :}

[overhere]

It's strange in a number of ways - $20K for a PA31 endorsement is a joke.

Why don't you offer to pay your own airfare to Hawaii (can get it for under $1000) and offer to get your own PA31 endorsement (can get one in Aust for around $2200) and you've saved a fortune.

Not quite sure how they will sponsor a work Visa for expat pilots when there are so many local pilots (USA Citizens) out of work still - that bit seems very strange.

[dik cheney]

Honestly, what GA pilot in NZ has 20k usd...or 5k for that matter. Remember its the land where most multi IFR pilots are paid 25k per annum. :yuk:

[DeltaT]

1. According to the NZ companies register the company is REAL.

2. The ad does not say they are ZK registered aircraft only that it is a NZ owned company. However why else would you require NZ licenced pilots?
If they are not ZK registered, then to hire non US citizens what is your reason for applying for a US Visa to the US authorities?

3. According to the CAA aircraft register there is only 1 NZ company with 2 Navajos, being Airtothere. And I highly doubt its them! So are the planes yet to be registered as ZK, or they never will be and therefore we are in conflict as to why you need kiwi pilots and then them getting a US visa.

4. If they are ZK registered, don't you need 750hrs TT for IFR Air Transport under NZ rules?
Which leads to...

5. Why is there no mention of minimum hours for twin engine Air Transport ops, highly unusual if not bizarre saying they will train you from nothing to do that!

6. Advertising only on 'Seek' and no where else mainstream that most of us know about is also unsual, especially for targeting kiwi pilots.

7. All that money up front, hmmm, you can work that one out...
But I will say this, what is YOUR $ security if the new start up airline goes belly up?

[Krazy]

OK - yeah, I didn't notice that the bond money is NZD and not USD. Though given the slide of the USD lately it's still a lot of money.

Also, the NZD20K is refundable after 12 months only if you are fully qualified to start off with. But this is the curious part for me - if you are fully qualified to start off with, then there is no need to pay for the training?!? I could understand if there is no bond for qualified pilots (ie., on type) and the bond is payable (but refundable) to non-qualified pilots.

Either way, I intend to follow through with this and will ask many questions in the interview. Will also post here more information that I find out (if I find out). Having been burned in business before, I intend to be very prudent!

[Aerozepplin]

I just don't understand the whole training side of it. While of course it may be perfectly above board, surely you could just post an ad "Seeking SEIFR experienced pilots for PA-31 job in Hawaii" and you'd have a flood of applicants. I know if I'd apply.

[YMEN]

The $20k over the 10 positions must be there to buy one of the PA-31s!

[FOCX]

If the believe the job is suspect you can report it to Seek. On the right side of the ad is a button if you have doubts about its authenticity.

[DeltaT]

I could swear the ad required 5000 for airfares and visa, and only if you are pre qualified do you get your 20K back after 12months, so money upfront if selected is required.

Where does it say it will be 2 crew, how do you know that? You seem to be very positive on this. Do you have some association with this deal?

Your money is clearly being used to be injected into the company to raise capital, as well as making you stay, if it was seriously -only- to prevent you from leaving then why not take out a loan in your name, they make the payments on your behalf, and if you leave early then you have to continue paying it yourself.

If this start up company goes belly up, do you really think you will get your money back?? -above all else that is a serious issue

[chode1984]

I wouldn't touch this deal with a 10 foot pole. Even if its legit its a rip off. Does anyone happen to know the kiwi involved? Wtf would you pay 20,000 for a PA-31 endorsement?

[DeltaT]

Wasa

I applied to the Seek ad, but on being told of 20K upfront, my first thought was a Nigerian scam, who would be so stupid as to risk that kind of money.
I would be very interested to see if after your 5k is put up if you even get to Hawaii. However the company is real, just no substance to the aircraft.
You know so much why don't you fill the gaps for everyone?

I just did a simply search on the FAA website on part 121,141 and 135 regs.Two crew for low capacity rpt ops..In the USA they are big on safety and two crew ops. Very different from Oz and NZ.

Ahh ok, so they ARE US registered planes.
So when the application is made for the work Visas for the NZ pilots, o and that includes the pilots that have no training yet, on what grounds can they do the job that a US citizen/pilot cannot??

No I am not part of the deal but I have family in the know. Also I am qualified and looking for some fun. (I have all my hours).

Great, go burn your 25K, and tell us about your flight hours when it happens.:D
With 'all your hours' you would not have a need to pay 25K to fly a Navajo!:rolleyes:

To secure the bond is easy and it is least of my worries. To put it simply "No security on our behalf, No Hawaii" and I will report it to the NZ authorites through a local law firm that I know of.

OMG.They can't even get $ back out of Hanover, what makes you so special?

Too easy.

:ugh:




Everyone else; is this where I say I have been wound up?! :suspect:

[FOCX]

Delta T, have a look at his join date!

[Flying Bear]

HH - regardless of how long he spent in the NT, if Tinpis wasn't born there, he will never be considered a Territorian!

To add to another post earlier:

Beware of Kiwis in the NT
Beware of Kiwis...

[Howard Hughes]

Being born there is not a requirement for being a 'territorian'...:ooh:

[mjbow2]

Some facts to consider.

FAA Part 135 requires 1200 total time for PIC's.

FAA Part 135 SIC is not required for Navajo operations. It is required if conducted under Part 121 (scheduled pax ops)

FAA does not have or require an 'endorsement' or 'type rating' for a Navajo or any non turbo-jet aircraft less than 5700kg.

FAA Part 135 operators are required to train all new hire pilots to the company's specific FAA approved SOP's regardless of previous experience on type.

FAA does not recognize high and low capacity RPT. FAA segregates operations by type (scheduled, non scheduled/frieght etc) and not the size of the aircraft.

MJ

[Flying Bear]

HH - I know that! The thing is that I spent many years there and was always told that to be a Territorian, I had to be born there.

Generally, this came from one of those with very little to boast about...

Which gave a bad name to the others...

Anyway, my main point was the advice relevant to this thread:

Beware Kiwis in the NT
Beware Kiwis

Been burnt before, going to work hard not to let that happen again! IMHO, the job in Hawaii sounds dodgy - would be interesting to pursue if one had the time and money to blow, but I would be prepared for tears in the long run.

[tinpis]

Beware of EVERYTHING in the NT


(Especially dressed in long sleaved shirt and slacks with nice polished shoes)

[biggles7374]

Has anybody been for the interview yet?

Any chance of posting some details - Interview venue, impressions etc.

Cheers

Biggles

[beantoo]

Having flown in hawaii quite a bit.....Behind every clouds silver lining is a volcano.
You couldn't pay me enough to sit in the back seat with a fresh commercial pilot at the pointy end. Tropical storms every arvo, volcano style LSA and no instrument experience.... Not a good idea if your hoping for a lasting company with minimal fatalities.:=:=

[Mach E Avelli]

The US airlines still have hundreds - if not thousands - of qualified pilots on furlough, with plenty more waiting for their first hour-building job. So how is this guy proposing to set up working visas for the dreaded aliens?
If he is running an inter-island service, which larger airline is hosting his reservations system, and has it been paid for yet? Without an alliance and a reservation system, no commuter air service will survive more than the time it takes for the first fuel account arrive in the mail.
Unless you are planning a Hawaiian holiday anyway, save your money and leave this scam to the locals to sort out.
A fool and his money are soon parted.

[remoak]

In my more cynical moments, I do wonder how many of the naysayers and doom merchants are desperately sending off their CVs whilst trying to discourage anyone else from applying... :}

[Aerozepplin]

Hahahaha... maybe we are... maybe we are.
I remember though that my father worked in the states for some time. He has a PhD, and an employer willing to pay the thousands needed to get a visa.

I don't want to jump to anything... and I don't want to say too much... but from reading about this guy, and his "experience"... well... :yuk:

[remoak]

Yes it all looks a little naive to say the least. Much cheaper to employ some locals, much cheaper to run N-reg aircraft too.

I have a friend who is just heading off to the USA to work (he's a musician), it cost USD3500.00 for the visa application process via an attorney.

Hey, you never know, the guy might be an idealist/enthusiast who can make it work. Not sure I'd bet that much money on it though.

[jezzaa]

Doing a search for Kiwi Projects Ltd (Company offering these positions) reveals the director Mark Taylor has experience with companies going into receivership. Although was back in 2004 .....

"
Receivership: Receivers at The Building Depot, RetailX share trading halted
Company: The Building Depot Ltd
Directors: Mark Taylor
Receivership: 8 September
Receivers: Rod Pardington & Grant Jarrold (Deloitte)
Directors� other main interests:Receivers were called in to The Building Depot on Wednesday 8 September but the NZX called a halt to trading in shares of its management company, RetailX Ltd, only on Thursday.

Mr Taylor bought the Building Depot chain of hardware outlets from Fletcher Building Ltd in 2003. Fletcher Building Ltd bought the business from Whangaparaoa businessman Wendell Phillips. RetailX operates the Stirling Sports chain, The Building Depot and stores under the Toyworld brand.

Mr Taylor is a director of Colmer Financial Services Ltd, E-prepaid Ltd, Franchise Investments Ltd, Kiwi Management Ltd, Kiwi Projects Ltd, Media Partners Ltd, Mega Sports Ltd, Metro Grand Insurance Ltd, Molly Taylors Ltd, Queensgate Holdings Ltd, RetailX Ltd, Retail Services Ltd, Stirling Sports Franchises Ltd, Taylor�s Financial Services Ltd, The PC Depot Ltd, Toyhouse Ltd and 4 Stirling Sports franchise companies at Hastings, Napier, New Plymouth & Whangaparaoa. His father, Colin Taylor, is a director of Stirling Sports Franchises Ltd"

Source: Auckland and New Zealand Property - Bob Dey Publishing (http://www.bdcentral.co.nz/afa.asp?idWebPage=8338&idBobDeyProperty_Articles=3386&SID=483132367)


Here's hoping it is legit and he has better luck with this venture and doesnt screw over his unsuspecting pilot's...

I would be careful about handing over any cash without some sort of security of being able to get it back if this venture goes belly up.

[Krazy]

A small update in the mean time: I believe the NZ'ers are having their interviews this week and the non-kiwis next week... Would love to hear from those who have had their interviews already...

[Nikai]

Caution, an open mind and a good lawyer (just in case) are probably all thats needed... :oh:

Surely there's no harm in finding out more about this type of thing initially, and trying to figure it out once more facts are available.

Afterall, for years pilots in NZ GA have been bonded for a similar amount (over 2 years) just for jobs on BN2's, so why not for a faster, light twin in a foreign country...

It is a bit strange that it appeared on Seek though rather than a standard pilot recruiting site... definitely agree it is strange to want to operate ZK- rather than N-, and if not ZK-, the need for NZ pilots...? :hmm:

[hoggsnortrupert]

C'mon get real people:

Pilots on food stamps in the good ol USA, and you really think the INS/Labor dept will issue work permits/green cards/ social security numbers:

Pink Pigs will fly before any NONE US citizens will.

If the company is registered, it can still be a scam, it is easy to register a shelf company just about any where in the world, my advice do not hand over any money.:=:=:=

H/snort.

[jimmyjones]

Apparently Hawaii is not until about 8 months time, in the mean while doing courier work in nz, flying and driving. He has the pa 31 but not sure of reg. Be careful I think.

[The Green Goblin]

Watch all the Kiwis with their left over student loan money (the same money that used to fund themselves over here working for free or being able to be the last man standing for a job the locals couldn't afford to do) burning in their hands ready to hand over to get some twun time :ugh:

Some PA31 time is just what you need to get into Air Nulsin, Vuncints or EEEgil.

Don't forget to turn the lights off boys on the way out :ok:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/VOCga5VzXJc&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/VOCga5VzXJc&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[remoak]

Had a look at the letter he sends out, and I can't decide whether it's legit and the guy is just trying to cover himself (because we all know that young pilots have absolutely no scruples when it comes to taking an airline job abd leaving their old employer in the lurch), or whether he is trying to finance the operation via his employees.

Simple solution is to offer the money for the bond, but only if it goes into an escrow or trust account that requires more checks and balances than simply handing the money over.

If it is genuine, it could be a good gig. Certainly, stranger ideas have come to pass...

[ZK-NSN]

for years pilots in NZ GA have been bonded for a similar amount (over 2 years) just for jobs on BN2's Try half of that, the fine "airline" your refering to "only" charge $10k for "training your replacement" if you leave within 2 years. Even a dash 8 bond is only $18k in nz for 18 months.

If you want to better your position in aviation and have $20k to part with then there are much better ways of doing it, or you could just give it too me. I cant really get you a job, but I will send you a christmas card every year.

[framer]

Even if I live to 100?....what about 10k just through til 2040? I want Christmas cards :sad:

[meggo]

There have been many responses, some insightful and sceptical and some just sceptical, but all have been very worthy of careful consideration. Thank you for taking the time to contribute.
As one who has done all that is possible (company checks, aircraft checks & everything suggested by previous respondents) to verify the integrity of this employer I still have the following question:
Has anyone had an interview or are you scheduled for one?
If you have first hand knowledge your response may help to clear up the integrity of this advertisement.
I am not questioning the integrity of the employer, because I don't know anything more than you all do, but would like some confirmation from anyone "in the know". It is all helpful info for the "wannabees" who sometimes need the helping hand of the "old hands'. Thanks for your anticipated responses.

[Aerozepplin]

so far everything checks out

Did you ask about how they're getting through the work visa problem?

That's the question that interests me the most. As I've stated before when my father (PhD, expert in his field) wanted to work in the USA his employer had to sponsor him, and show that there were no American citizens who could fill the role satisfactorily. Quite a significant cost if I remember too. After six years we had to leave, as beyond that you require a green card, which is given out (bought really) on a weighted lottery system.

[j3pipercub]

Roles other than flying, assuming to which you replied 'of course'?

DANGER WILL ROBINSON!!!!!!!!!!

Jezza, I would be very very careful if I were you. In another country, ending up working as a booking agent in reservations 4 days a week, but of course the 'core' job is the flying 2 days a week in the RHS of a 30 year old never-go. And you've shelled out 25k. And then you want to leave only to find that 'third party' solicitor aint so third party anymore. It sounds awesome and exciting, but make sure you have ALL the facts. If they are hazy on some points definitely get clarifaction before diving in head first.

GG, love the jokes, they never get old.

j3

[NoseGear]

Jezza, J3 brings up a valid point....I too would clarify as much as you can just what the other roles entail. When I was in GA, it was basically a 2 pilot operation, and we ran the whole show, phone, bookings, check in, loadsheets, baggage handling and the flying, however, it was a small operation and quite manageable. This company sounds a bit bigger than that, so a 4 day stint in reservations could very well be an option from your bosses point of view.

I think AeroZep is probably onto the biggest hurdle.....and I dont see how he'll manage that, or operating ZK rego aircraft in a commercial op in the USA.

[Mr_T]

If the aircraft are ZK registered wouldn't then NZ CAA have to issue a Air Operators certificate and the US FAA issue a exemption to operate? - Check all this paper work before you sign on.
20K to fly a desk... better to feed that money to a 737 or A320 endorsement in my opinion.. Interested to see how this pans out. Does the company have a website?

[Aerozepplin]

Danger Will Robinson indeed!

So...
Immigration Issues
Work "other than flying"
Lack of PA-31 registration movement
Lack of PA-31s with ZK reg in the USA
Lack of PA-31s that aren't busy with other operators
Lack of claimed airline experience
Lack of logic in requirements
Large amounts of money changing hands.

If this company is humming 18 months from now with happy young pilots flying ZK registered Navajos around the Islands of Hawaii I shall eat all my hats.

[j3pipercub]

You're awesome Jezza, so you've got 850hrs, you're going to shell out 25k to sit in the rhs of a navajo, and we're the ill informed ones... You're a legend.

j3

[ZK-NSN]

Dont be a sook jezza. Grab your blankie, have a glass of hot milk and go have a lie down.

The interview was quite short and he was mostly interested in whether I'd be willing to perform roles other than flying So he wasnt actually that interested in your experience or knowledge? Sounds like to me all you really need to get the job is a willingness to other tasks and stump up with the cash. (but a licence would be an advantage)

Or what evidence he's got to say "Lack of claimed airline experience The NZ aviation aviation industry is pretty small and nobody seems to have heard of him. Evidence?

Frankly you are too young and too ill-informed to be posting such snide comments I find this quite ironic. One could argue that you saying zepplin knows nothing because of his age is ill-informed. You dont need to be old to know the long trail of cluster f*cks and bullsh!t artists that have operated within the NZ aviation industry (or to do your homework on the net)

People willing to shell out huge amounts of cash to secure a job are screwing the industry. Dragging down pay and conditions for everyone in the game. What happened to the old (2 years ago) way of going door knocking and finding a job in GA and doing their time and moving up. (similar to what the goblin said without the kiwi bashing)

[Aerozepplin]

Quite :ouch:

Don't get me wrong, I really really want this to be a genuine sucessful operation. Good on the people who've given it a go, and good luck to you. I'm sure no one has gone in eyes closed, because... well... you're not idiots.

However, there is not one tiny piece of evidence to suggest it will be a successful operation, or that its more than a sizable nothing. I don't know what the ultimate goal of this is though. It doesn't make any sense. I can back up my above claims (which were probably a bit harsh), but I won't. Unless this is a super sneaky way to get a few brave souls on board, the ones who take a punt so to speak, well... unless it's that I simply can't fathom it.

[The Green Goblin]

I rest my case boys :ok:

[j3pipercub]

Jezza,

My initial comment was one of concern, as I didn't want to see a less than experienced guy get taken for a ride, especially after the comments made in the interview.

Now I see I was wrong, you can obviously take very good care of yourself, so by all means go to Hawaii. Best of luck in your reservations career...

j3

[ZK-NSN]

Now just give me a second to cower behind a rock somewhere before you all tell me what a loser I am Cower behind, crawl back under. Whatever suits dude. :ok:

The bond is being paid to a third party solicitor which makes me feel a lot better In which country? But I guess theres no need to worry about that, lawyers are all good honest professionals.......? The thing that gives me the sh!ts is that every other bond I have heard of within aviation doesnt require you to hand over any money, only to pay it out if you decide to break it. But like I said, you can trust lawyers.

Good luck I guess. Be careful though, $20k can dig you a pretty deep hole.

[NZ X man]

You have to take everything you hear from a KIwi with a grain of salt, pay a bond for a Chieftan job, you would be nuts. I am a Yank , who is living in NZ, and have been for the last 15 years. Trust me, Do not get involved. There have been more start up operators in Hawaii, who ground to a halt than lippo suction jobs in LA.. You can do better. Hang in ther mate.

X man

[j3pipercub]

Jezza,

I was inferring using personal knowledge about the aviation industry in general, and if the future boss is concentrating on asking you whether you'd be willing to do other jobs (ie office biatch) vs your flying experience, then I reckon you could make a pretty accurate assumptions and inferences about what you'd be in for.

I got Snarly, or as you say

rude, mean spirited and uncalled for.

because you are telling others that

if you think that you can get a multi engine job in GA without having to perform duties "other than flying" then you've got a lot to learn about this industry.

That is utter crud, you are the one that has a lot to learn with that mindset.

AND MY PERSONAL FAVORITE

Frankly you are too young and too ill-informed to be posting such snide comments

You're the 'young' one here mate. With 850 hrs you are 'young' experience wise, and I don't care what your age is.

So go away, and grow up.

j3
And I have no idea why you are so vehemently fighting either...

[Idlewild101]

This forum reminds me of a school kids playground. Grow up guys we're on here purely for advice and opinions, not smart ass comments.

Jezza, went to the interview myself on monday. Upon meeting the guy, immediately got a bad vibe.. Then came the interview..

Lacked in many areas. Firstly, he informs me that the comapany is no longer starting up in Hawaii, due to the 25/12/09 attempted terrorist attack. The company is to be opened in NZ. Later in the interview, he tells me the plan has been seven years in the making. I assume this is seven years in the making having the company based in Hawaii?? yet it takes only a month to move it to New Zealand?? what happens to the supposed contracts he already had in Hawaii?? how has he found enough buisness contacts in a month to establish the company in NZ?? And the fact that he's trying to break into the small freight industry, how does he expect to compete with other already established and highly successful companies??

He went on to ask me how much the salary he had mentioned was, and also what he had said the start month would be.. a couple of very basic, but essential things you'd think an employer may remember..

as you said, he seemed far more interested in everything about me other then flying, in fact I don't recall him asking me a single question to do with my flying....

Yes he did say the bond would be payed to a solicitor, but wouldnt give me a name, it could be his mate at the local pub for all i know.. wouldnt put it past him considering the interview was held at his home residence!!

Mate, the list goes on, there's way to many warning signs to trust this guy, and if it's not a scam, then it's a poorly thought out buisness plan, either way this idiots not getting anywhere near my wallet.

All the best.

[...still single]

Sooooo.........

No more Hawaii?

20k bond (upfront) still stands?

No aircraft?

Sounds legit to me. Have at it, Bro. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. It's win-win. Get in at the ground level. When the airlines start hiring, that RHS PA-31 time will be invaluable. Don't call it a BOND, it's an INVESTMENT in your future, mate!

It's all good! What could possibly go wrong?

[Mr_T]

if you think that you can get a multi engine job in GA without having to perform duties "other than flying" then you've got a lot to learn about this industry.

Go to the Caribbean... Its ICAO, they wont bond you, you have people to do everything for you all you need to do is turn up and fly. GA at its best. Plus they pay $US

[Mr_T]

Jezza

I worked for NZ GA... I know what your talking about.

Just letting you know that there are GA operators out there that do treat you right, and pay decent tin to do what you were trained to do. You just have to look hard to find them.

NZ GA can be the best and the worst.


And to ZK-NSN

I wonder if this guy has been chatting with RMCK!

[ZK-NSN]

Could very well be Mr T, it has that Rothmans smell to it. :ok:

Running freight in NZ in a cheftain is pretty unlikely these days, even Aztec and six operators are losing contracts. More economical to run a courier van than an aircraft, The economy still being very slow contracts would be very hard to come by anyway.

Dont worry jezza, i reads reel ok, its just me speeling that needs to get gooderer at. If he offers you the CEO job and says "dont worry its just some paperwork thing".....take it.

To the pub!

[Aerozepplin]

I would have thought the Cook Strait would be one of the few places where a light twin operator would make some freight money. Wellington to Nelson is a long trip my road with the ferry crossing and that. Not that I can think of any who are... but I'm quite young...:oh:

[pilot_chicky]

Thanks Krazy for starting this disscussion, its interesting reading everyone's thoughts on this potential job opportunity.

In the current entry level job market there aren't too many opportunities like this that come up. For them to be asking for a $20,000 up front bond on first impressions seems odd as that isnt the norm, but also quite sensible. It cuts down the amount of potential applicants and also ensures that you have pilots who are committed to you for the 12months.

I would be interested to hear from anyone who has proceeded past the first interview.

I guess until you are at the point of handing over your hard earned cash, what is the harm in applying for this role?

[Krazy]

Well I know he's still doing interviews. Have now been told non-residents will find out about their interviews next week. Which means he's already behind the schedule he set for himself a couple of weeks ago!!!

[100.above]

If your willing to pay 20k for a PA31 Job, whats next? 50k for a A320 endorsement and 500hours on type? or maybe 70k for A330 with 500 on type?

Good luck getting your $20,000USD back after a year!

20K is on the money for an A320 endorsement! I didn't know the PA31s were so complex! :yuk:

[dik cheney]

For them to be asking for a $20,000 up front bond on first impressions seems odd as that isnt the norm, but also quite sensible. It cuts down the amount of potential applicants

I suppose it cuts out all the applicants who are not willing to drop their daks and bend over, and all the guys who would make good decisions in the cockpit...because lets face it, if you pay a 20k bond for a PA-31 your an idiot.

[The Green Goblin]

Better not put it on ebay, the Kiwis will be paying over 50k after a bidding war :}

smy turn bro :ouch:

[Aerozepplin]

You could use the 20k to live on the front door step of your favourite operator until they hired you. Or use it to pay the bond when you get arrested for trespassing and public nudity.

Any other people who've interviewed who haven't shared? Your story is of much interest.

[jimmyjones]

I went for a interview earlier this week. When I got the info about the job, the first thing I thought was, this sounds a little dodgy, but hay worth finding out a bit more about it.
Did a bit of research into it, esp the man himself. He has been director of many companies before, including kiwi airlines ltd back in 1998 and was also with origin pacific and we all know what happen there.
Set up does sound a little weird, he wants to start up in Hawaii, but now has been put off due to "security issues", and setting up a courier business in NZ with one of the PA31. So what is going to happen to the NZ business when Hawaii is all up and running?
Apparently the aircraft have been brought and are in Hawaii, and getting ZK reg, then bringing one to NZ.
If it is all legit and he is really making a good go at this, what are the chances of competing in the market.
Bond wise, yes it is steep and the main reason why it sounds dodgy.
Anyway, not going into this blind and will be asking a lot more questions.

[biggles7374]

So his intention is one PA-31 aircraft in NZ.

Does that mean he is only looking for 5 pilots now?

With respect to the Cash Bond, I understand from the posts that this is to be lodged with a third party solicitor, however there is usually a Bond Agreement to accompany it that spells out under what circumstances the Company are able to 'call on the bond' and withdraw the money from the third party. Does anyone have details of this?

As long as the 'call' is in accordance with the clauses of the Bond Agreement the third party can happily release the bond to the Company without fear of any legal redress.

The wording of the bond agreement is crucial and I urge the 'chosen few' to pay particular attention to this document above all others.

[remoak]

I think that if you read the letter he sends out to applicants, it all becomes clearer. He says -
BOND: If you accept to go ahead you will be required to pay $5,000 by 29 January which covers immigration costs, airfares and legal expenses. When immigration is approved, you will then be required by 12 March to pay $20,000 as a security bond. If you join the business as a fully qualified Multi Engine Instrument rating, Commercial Pilot this will be refundable after 12 months.
What the bond is actually going towards (for some applicants) is a complete licence, multi instrument rating and type rating, not just a type rating alone. It is actually a pretty good deal if you are an ab initio. Of course the next question would be, why not have a two-tier system for those who have the CPL and multi instrument? Although the qualified people get their 20K back (hopefully) which makes it a simple loyalty bond for them.

Makes you wonder if he still wants the extra 5K, seeing as how Hawaii is off the cards for now (and probably always will be).

If you can verify that whoever is holding the money is trustworthy, and if you don't mind doing everything else besides flying, and if you actually have the cash in the first place - may be worth a punt. You'd need to be pretty desperate, though...

[biggles7374]

Remoak

I don't know if your post was in response to mine but the paragraph relating to the bond within the letter is certainly sketchy to say the least and for any legit business operation which MT purports to be there should be a lot more detail than this - and I hope he will provide this in due course.

Tell me, based on the information you have to hand, and assuming you had the money would you take a 'punt'?

If so, then I think I would think twice about being your first officer I am sorry to say. With everything looking doubtful you would still be the one to take the risk anyway rather than walk away. Think the airlines would have something to say about your risk profile!!

Biggles


ps. Is MT a pilot himself? Sounds a bit odd that someone starting a new business would not do some of the flying himself to keep overheads low at the beginning? Who would be his Chief Pilot?

[remoak]

biggles7374

No, you posted while I was writing my contribution, so I didn't see it until after I posted.

Would I take a punt on this? Not a chance in hell! But then I have over 10K hours in my logbook, mostly jet, and I'm not desperate, so...

No company (in my experience) tells you much about the bond until you accept the job, other than how much it is for and how it is administered. I would need a lot of convincing to sign such an agreement, but if you are an ab initio looking to move straight into a Chieftain, it could well be a very sweet deal. There are a huge number of "ifs", though.

I don't really think it is a big risk if you do your homework properly, and pay close attention to what your head is telling you, rather than your (aviation) heart. Any third-party lawyer who retained your bond outside of the scope of a bond agreement would be wide open to fraud charges, so really it comes down to reading the contract carefully and getting advice if you are not sure.

As I said, for an ab initio it COULD be a fantastic opportunity. Just be careful.

[biggles7374]

Cheers Remoak, I appreciate your response.

[The Green Goblin]

20k equals 160 hours ICUS on a PA31 in Tasmania :}

I'd say that will get you much further ahead than this :D

[27/09]

was tasmania where frodo was from? I didn't know Frodo was a Goblin too.

From Wiki

A goblin is a legendary evil or mischievous creature described as a grotesquely evil or evil -like phantom that may range in evil from that of a dwarf to that of a human. They are attributed with various (sometimes conflicting) abilities, temperaments and appearances depending on the story and country of origin. In some cases, goblins have been classified as constantly annoying little creatures somewhat related to the brownie and gnome.
Goblins can come in any colour but are mainly depicted as green or brown. While they are generally considered crabby, very rarely a story or movie will feature kind goblins


That seems to sum up the character of one poster on here. :) Poor fellow.

[27/09]

I have some Q's

1. I wonder where the Chief Pilot is coming from? In fact has he even got a Chief Pilot or know what is required in this regard?

2. I wonder where the courier work is coming from?

3. I wonder why he is advertising for people that don't have the qualifications required to do the flying?

4. I wonder why he needs a bond as high as $20,000 or a bond at all for that matter?

I have a theory on how Q2 and Q3 might be related, City Jet comes to mind.

I have theory on the $20,000 too, the "bond" is a clever way of getting the use of your money. You will get it back if it all works, BUT if not, you cannot get blood out of a stone. Refer again to City Jet. :{

I get the feeling that someone has a great idea but doesn't have the faintest idea on how the industry works, but they are going to show us all how it is done. :ok:

[Aerozepplin]

Anyone who's lurking around this thread who's actually set up or been involved in the early days of an operation like this who has a story to tell?

[remoak]

I've been involved in three start-ups.

My experience is:

It is never as easy as you think it will be.

It ALWAYS requires sh*tloads of money, far more than you would expect.

If you don't start off with at least double your budget in your pocket at the beginning, you are unlikely to still be trading a year later.

Regulatory authorities can be either your friend or your worst nightmare. The way the NZ CAA is carrying on at the moment, I would be extremely surprised if they were in any way co-operative with this scheme.

Innovation is fine, but taking money off pilots (well-proven to be as easy as taking candy from a baby) is a well-worn route that many have trod... see the thread on a certain Mr Butler that surfaces on PPRuNe from time to time.

New operations trade on the desperation and ambition of young pilots to get a start, especially in tough times.

Of the three that I have been involved in, none are currently flying (although one still technically exists, but without an AOC). The longest-lived one lasted around 18 months. One lasted just three months. I had to take two of them to court to get my money from them.

Do some research. There are plenty of cautionary tales on PPRuNe.

Above all, be careful and don't prove the old maxim (that a fool and his money are easily parted).

However, on the plus side...

I get the feeling that someone has a great idea but doesn't have the faintest idea on how the industry works, but they are going to show us all how it is done.

... which is pretty much why we now have low-cost airlines. Everyone said that it wouldn't (and couldn't) work. Who runs the show now? It isn't the legacy carriers, who are scrambling to emulate the lo-cos...

Now look back and see where the major low-cost carriers came from. Not from aviation experts, that's for sure!

[The Green Goblin]

That seems to sum up the character of one poster on here. Poor fellow.

A goblin is a legendary evil or mischievous creature

Ill take that one :ok:

[biggles7374]

http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/399233-warning-internet-fraud-pilot-hiring-scams.html

[biggles7374]

It's all gone quiet!!!!

[Luke SkyToddler]

... can you even log RHS in a navajo at all? What column are you hotshots planning to put it in? It ain't "dual" without an instructor and it ain't "co pilot" unless the aircraft is legally required to operate two crew, so it's got to be in the "command practice" column, and that opens up a whole new can of legally dubious worms if you're physically occupying the RHS, and especially if there's not a proper set of full IFR instrumentation on both sides of the panel which virtually no Navajos have.

I'm already having visions of one of these turkeys doing an ATPL flight test with someone like Graeme Leach in a few years, and getting half their logbook hours ripped up as illegitimate before they've even made it out of the briefing room.

Unless of course you're in the left seat, which is a whole different ball game considering the advert seems to be targeting fresh CPLs and people not even out of training yet. Now unless things have changed a lot in NZ, it used to be nigh impossible to even get your hands on a PA31 unless you had over 1000 hours TT, I vaguely remember back when I was about a 500 hour "C" cat and I rang around the whole north island trying to rent one for a private flight with a bunch of my mates down to Queenstown, nobody would even consider letting me near the aircraft without 1000 hours, they all cried "insurance requirements". What do the insurers reckon about this guy's plan?

And the insurers actually know what they're talking about to be honest, this guy better be a bloody good instructor as well as the other hats he's wearing, or he might well have blood on his hands before too long if that is in fact his plan :hmm:

[The Green Goblin]

You can log COPILOT time in any aircraft that you are a COPILOT. This includes a PA31, or even a C152.

In Australia mining companies require two crew operations in the said aircraft.

I'm sure COPILOT time will be laughed at in a C152, but it still counts after being divided by two towards your Grand Total :cool:

GG

[framer]

You can log COPILOT time in any aircraft that you are a COPILOT. This includes a PA31, or even a C152.
Really? In NZ a few years ago it was as Luke said, ie the aircraft had to have a "2 crew requirement" . there were some GA companies that got a kind of dispensation but they had to have it written into their Ops Manual and actually have SOP's for operating 2 crew.....ie not just sitting there and doing/ saying whatever you feel like or are told by your "captain". At least thats how I remember it .
If it was that simple wouldn't PPL's be splitting the costs in 152's and all logging lots of "co-pilot" time?

[Offcut]

There has always been debate about this in NZ but I seem to remember CAA issuing an opinion on it years ago. I'm pretty sure that to log co-pilot time the aircraft flight manual must specify that it requires two pilots.

Even on an ATO IFR flight with no autopilot that requires two pilots by CAA law, the second pilot cannot log co-pilot as he is essentially just a safety pilot, not a functioning crew member. Think about it, there are no procedures laid down for PF/PNF. Who does what and when?

And I am 100% certain that you cannot log co-pilot time in a 152 in NZ! But hey, give it a go. It might get you over the bar for that airline interview one day. Or possibly get you laughed out of the room. Believe me, they check every entry and will notice.

[The Green Goblin]

Things are different over here :ok:

Just about any mining contract flying pistons now require 2 crew with the Captain of a Navajo having 2000TT with 500 hours multi engine command.

Considering a lot of the ways to build the multi engine command in the first place was mining charter and now this requirement has appeared, it will be interesting to see how pilots will get the command in the first place!

When I had 2000TT and 500MEC I had my eyes on something much bigger than a Navajo, hell I was flying one with less than 1000 hours :{

[pilot_chicky]

Has anyone been offered/signed a contract with this guy yet?

[Braviator]

Will be interesting to see how many people have signed up. Apparently there are 3 spots left - I'm guessing for the non-NZ applicants. There must be some form of carrot to entice people to part with 20k... and I'm guessing it's not RHS in a PA31.

[stan_02325]

Yeap, got offered a contract
what do u wanna know

[No junk male]

Congrats Stan,

I really hope it works out well and this is indeed a wonderful opportunity :ok:

[pilot_chicky]

have you accepted it?

[eeper23]

Ahhh well, the less kiwis in Aus stealing the hours from Aussie pilots who actually had to pay for it, the better. Good luck on getting your money back.

[DeltaT]

Ok, I will bite again...
What about the 750hrs experience requirement for NZ IFR ATO, does that include the co as well?!

[NoseGear]

eeper, congratulations, youve managed to post something that contributes absolutely nothing, whilst at the same time making no sense at all....well done:rolleyes: Id mention in passing that Aussies aren't against crossing the ditch for work when it suits either.:D

To those offered work, can you tell me why they require the money up front? I'm concerned at that, the normal practice of bonding usually is no money unless you dont fulfull your contractual obligations....beware, however I do hope its a break for some of you.

[stan_02325]

Thanks a lot mate
I hope it all works out..

I'll keep you posted

cheers:ok:

[biggles7374]

The more information that gets posted on here, the more things do not add up. There appears to be a number of inconsistencies.

Jezza - This seems to be at odds with previous information on the letter MT has issued to potential applicants that Bond will be refunded if you start with a CPL MECIR.

Is this guy making it up as he goes along?

Wonder how many offers he has made? I just hope that he does not make 50 offers and runs off into the sunset a millionaire!!!

He seems to be conducting a ****load of interviews!!

[pilot_chicky]

I know of someone who has declined the offer as well.

I would be checking the registration of the aircraft its secured against (what else is secured against it?), a certified copy of the ownership papers...

[remoak]

eeper23

Ahhh well, the less kiwis in Aus stealing the hours from Aussie pilots who actually had to pay for it, the better.

Funny how Aussies are the first to head off to pommyland to steal the hours of hardworking Brits when it suits them... hypocrites one and all.

JezzaNZ

The bond is secured against the aircraft so there's recourse to get the money back if things go sour.

Depends on the value of the aircraft, and the number of bonds... could well be that there isn't enough equity in the aircraft to pay the bonds back. And are the aircraft actually owned, or leased?

[biggles7374]

I have to admit I was unsure whether this was a genuine opportunity or not, but I have to say, the more information that is emerging the more questions I have rather than answers.

Obtaining more information is suppose to provide re-assurance rather than creating further doubt as is the case here.

From a bond lodged with a third party lawyer to a source of finance to use to fund the business start-up - oh I forgot this is secured against an aircraft that it appears he does not own yet cause he cannot give anyone the rego. What did the advert say - "owner of 2 pa31" LIE No 1

Why not just give you a share of the company and a place on the board?

Also, if the company goes bust do you think that the bank is not going to impound the main business asset (the aircraft) because there are bonds that are secured on it? It is unlikely that your bond will even be listed as a charge on the ownership of the aircraft. You will be treated as a creditor and will get nothing back.

Also, what is stopping the use of the aircraft as collateral for further borrowing once all the bonds have been lodged?

WHOOP WHOOP!! MASTER CAUTION!!

Sorry I cannot be more optomistic at this point.

[eeper23]

For all the haters. Your missing the point. Aussies stealing jobs actually had to pay for their flying training. Kiwis stealing jobs in Australia, had their flying training paid for by the government.

So the poor young aussie student working his ass off for a full-time job, or having a $70k debt, has to go up against some kiwi whos had all their flying training given to them on a platter.

Go figure. Homos.

[remoak]

eeper23

You, sir, are an idiot. NZ pilots do not have their training paid for by the government; it is a LOAN. They have to pay it back...

Any Aussie can do the same thing by going to the bank and getting a loan as well, which I am sure some do.

[Aerozepplin]

eeper, please don't get this thread closed by being an idiot. If you have problems with the NZ loan system (and the large number of maybe-never-to-be-employed pilots it produces :sad:) then start a new thread. This one is too interesting to get hijacked.

[remoak]

Well even if you do (and I'd be surprised), not paying back your student loan results in pretty much the same actions as if you took out a loan from an Aussie bank and refused to pay it back. You think the NZ government just rolls over and says goodbye to the money? They help out with various deferment options etc, but students are still liable for the debt they incur. The people you know may like to think they have got away with it, but when they return to NZ, reality will catch up to them.

So, good old Australian xenophobia aside, how is the loan playing field not level exactly?

However, you are right that aviation itself isn't a level playing field. The sight of pilots crawling over each other to get a job is hardly inspiring...

[The Green Goblin]

So, good old Australian xenophobia aside, how is the loan playing field not level exactly?

However, you are right that aviation itself isn't a level playing field. The sight of pilots crawling over each other to get a job is hardly inspiring...

Try being 18 in Australia and getting a hundred thousand dollar personal loan. Not going to happen. I doubt they will even lend it to me. Almost got declined trying to buy a 30,000 friggen car due to past tax returns, and the amount of times I have moved in the past 5 years (18 residences)

In NZ it's very easy to get a student loan from the government. I know many pilots who will not be returning home so they do not have to pay it. Besides they also know life is better across the ditch on the mainland. That is why 10% of the New Zealand population live here (400,000 I believe) And countless others are on fly in fly out arrangements in the Pilbara working the mines. Australia is the number two best place to live in the world with Norway being number one.

IMO if you need to spend 80k on flight training, 20k to get a job on a piston twin, more than likely 30k for a type endorsement, when will it end? At some stage you need to earn a decent wage and cover what you have laid out.

I'd steer clear of this. Sounds like another dodgy kiwi with short arms and deep pockets.........

Spend your student loan money on ICUS in Tasmania.

[haughtney1]

CITYJETCITYJETCITYJETCITYJETCITYJETCITYJETCITYJETCITYJETCITY JETCITYJETCITYJETCITYJETCITYJETCITYJETCITYJETCITYJETCITYJETC ITYJETCITYJETCITYJETCITYJETCITYJETCITYJETCITYJETCITYJETCITYJ ETCITYJETCITYJETCITYJETCITYJETCITYJETCITYJETCITYJETCITYJETCI TYJETCITYJETCITYJETCITYJETCITYJETCITYJETCITYJETCITYJETCITYJE TCITYJETCITYJETCITYJETCITYJET

Is all that this reminds me of :ok:

And all of you too young or foolish...go and do a bit of research:ugh:

[Aerozepplin]

CITYJET

I belive the figure of $20,000 rings a bell in regards to them...

[remoak]

Yeah I would have to say that putting up a bond that is secured against the aircraft is utter foolishness... because if/when the company goes broke... guess who will be last in line... :sad:

[remoak]

I know many pilots who will not be returning home so they do not have to pay it.If it goes through the courts, being in Oz won't protect you. Oz and NZ have a multitude of bilateral agreements, and one of them allows allows action through the oz court system for defaulters and other miscreants.

And just because they aren't returning doesn't mean they don't have to pay their loan back... unless of course they are so morally bankrupt as to think that the principle of paying your debts doesn't apply them to them. Nice friends you have there, I'd watch my back if I were you.

Besides they also know life is better across the ditch on the mainland. That is why 10% of the New Zealand population live hereAh, the arrogance. The other 90% know that, in fact, life is NOT better across the ditch, just different. It's basically just a big desert with green bits around the edges, full of things that want to kill and eat you. Spent a bit of time in Oz, always glad when the wheels touch good ole Aotearoa... ;)

IMO if you need to spend 80k on flight training, 20k to get a job on a piston twin, more than likely 30k for a type endorsement, when will it end? At some stage you need to earn a decent wage and cover what you have laid out.Or you could move to more enlightened parts of the world, where the apprentice mentality doesn't exist...

After 20 years of airline flying, I'm proud to be able to say that I have never paid a bean to secure a job, never paid for a type rating, and never stooped to prostituting myself to try and get a gig. That sort of crap is an Oz/NZ thing...

[j3pipercub]

Pray tell remoak, where are these 'enlightened' parts of the world.

Also, if you ever open a bank, let me know.

j3

[The Green Goblin]

Pray tell remoak, where are these 'enlightened' parts of the world.

Also, if you ever open a bank, let me know.

j3

Yes I'm waiting too :)

With the right for me to live and work in 3 other regions I'd be very interested!

In terms of pay, conditions and stability in your employment I think we have it pretty good in Australia which is why we are still here!

80k to drive a Metro in Australia and 28k as an A320 FO in the US, I know where I'd rather be!

[haughtney1]

How about 15000.00 USD per month to fly a Bizjet based 3 hours from Perth :ok:
It will look even better when the US Peso inflates this year....

Pity I dont have the job though, nor can I fly the Texas lawn dart

[remoak]

Try most of the EU.

Last job I had there paid me AU$14,500 a month, so around AU$174,000 pa. 100 seat jet.

How about turboprop F/O at 700 hours, turboprop skipper at 1800 hours, first jet (and a direct entry command) at 4000 hours? All of which took just 4.5 years? Try doing that in Oz. And I wasn't unusual, plenty of people in Europe with 767 commands on less than 5000 hours.

Australia has (comparatively) low rates of pay, poor conditions, and very slow progression, which is why most ozmates with the ability to do so, leave and go anywhere but Oz. Cathay, all the Mid-East airlines, Royal Brunei, half the Asian airlines, Easyjet in the UK, all infested with hundreds of Aussies.

But that's OK, keep those rose-tinted speccies on your nose and enjoy whatever it is Oz has to offer... let me see... 5000 hours of instructing before you have any chance of seeing a dilapidated 30 year old Aztec... another 5000 hours banging round in said Aztec before you have any chance of a regional job in a... wait for it... Dash 8 or similar... another 5-10 years to get a command in said commuter plane... then - if you are lucky - right seat of a jet where you will sit for another ten years before getting a command... assuming the next recession hasn't hit by then, in which case it's back to the Aztec... ;)

[j3pipercub]

Settle down there, my question was a valid one!

Europe is great if you have the right to work there...and did you pay for the turbo-prop endo? And how did you get that first 700 hours?

j3

[biggles7374]

Lets get back on topic!!!!

[remoak]

First 700 hours - 400 private flying, 300 instructing. As I said earlier, I have never paid for an endorsement (or "type rating" as we call them)... in fact, my first employer paid for my pommy instrument rating... the '80s were great... :ok:

[Sue Ridgepipe]

Remoak, it sounds like you have had a good run with your career and are happy with where you are now. That's great for you and congratulations for what you have achieved, but not everyone aspires to the same career path.

I spent several years flying in GA and the regionals and I wouldn't change it for anything. I thoroughly enjoyed the flying, went to a lot of wonderful places I never even knew existed, and made some life long friends along the way.

Sure it's taken me a long time to make it to the left seat of a jet, and financially I'm sure you're way ahead of me, but I've really enjoyed the journey that got me where I am today and I am still enjoying it now.

Anyway, sorry for the thread drift, back to the topic................

[slice]

hmmmm bit over the top there remoak. Recently very low timers have been going to DASH 8s etc. and a few onto jets below 2000 hrs. Things have changed quite a bit here recently. Plus the days of employer paid endorsements have been gone almost as long in Europe as here in Australia. In fact the latest Easyjet cadet scheme is pretty shocking - see that thread. Now I hear of schemes to employ pilots for Northern summer months only!

BTW Captains on the 100 seat jet here at band camp are on $143K basic so with the difference in cost of living there is probably not much in it. There have been some sub 2 year upgrades to command as well.

I do wonder what happend to the heli student that ran up $184K in student loans!:}

[remoak]

Sue Ridgepipe

Don't get me wrong, my career path is neither the only or the best one. Mostly it was shaped by airline bankruptcies, booms and busts, that sort of stuff.

At the end of the day, you choose the path you want, no path is any better or worse than any other IMHO. All I'm saying is if you want to advance quickly, you are far better off doing it somewhere other than Oz. But if you like the GA scene and the place itself, then all power to you and enjoy the ride!

If it makes you feel any better, I've had enough of the airlines now and I'm thinking about getting back into GA. The airline life isn't necessarily a very satisfying one.

All this is quite relevant to the topic, which is basically about an alternate path to commercial flying.

slice

the days of employer paid endorsements have been gone almost as long in Europe as here in Australia.

Not true. The majority of airlines will type-rate you on the basis of a bond. Only the lo-cos require the type rating.

What is "band camp"?

[dik cheney]

Yeah? I know of Doctors and other NZ 'Professionals' who refuse to return to New Zealand so they DON'T have to pay their student loans back, hardly a level playing field :ugh:

Ahh to pay it back or not. 100k would increase very fast with the monthly penalties and interest. These people might not be returning to work, but I'm sure they have family in NZ, what happens when there go back to see them. I know you can't get arrested for bad debt but in sure they could refuse you departure from NZ.

What happens if 10-20 years from now someone turns up on your door in Australia to tell you your house now belongs to the NZ Government. There has always been talk of an agreement between NZ and AU regarding student loans. A child support reciprocal agreement between Australia and New Zealand came into force on 1 July 2000. I wouldnt be able to sleep at night if I were these people.

[The Green Goblin]

Bankrupt yourself in NZ when you get your first Australian job. 3 years later you'll be discharged, free CPL and more than likely an Australian ATPL to boot.....

The more of you that do this the better, the money will stop and the GA industry in Australia may get back on track :ok:

[remoak]

Australia is the penal colony, not New Zealand. We don't do that sort of thing...:=

And I wouldn't particularly want to fly with anyone who did. People who demonstrate a lack of integrity in one area of their life, usually do so in others and such people are a liability. Who the hell cares if you falsify a logbook or a tech log, it doesn't really matter, right? Nobody gets hurt, right...?

Exactly the same thinking as deliberately avoiding paying your debts.

And as for Aussie GA getting back on the right track, it isn't a few Kiwis that are the problem...

[pilot_chicky]

what did you ask to get changed in the contract? have you accepted it?

[biggles7374]

Jezza

Tell him that then. I hear that he has tentatively set up interviews with Aussies at the Gold Coast to be confirmed this week.

Must be waiting to see how many Kiwi's want to take him up on his offer.

Is he just wanting a verbal or has he asked for the cash?

Be carefull!!

Biggles

[biggles7374]

I thought that the 5k was to cover US immigration etc. and that he has ditched the Hawaii idea in favour of setting up domestically in NZ.

I like to think that I am quite an intelligent person but this is puzzling the hell out of me.

[biggles7374]

jezza

check your pm's

Biggles

[Offcut]

Guys guys guys (and girls). Please dont give this guy any money.

I reluctantly admit to being sucked in by a similar scheme in 1999. Times were tough, no one was hiring, Air Nelson wanted 5000 hrs and turboprop time to get RHS on the Metro etc etc. As a 350 hr CPL/MEIR pilot it didn't look good. CityJet were offering a Bandit rating and 500 hrs of RHS time with the promise of a job at the end. The only catch, $22 000 to cover " training costs". A rip off I know, but around 40 others had done it before and everyone I talked to on the inside said it was a good punt. After getting a loan, secured against my fathers house (cheers dad), I signed up. It seemed to good to be true (heard that before?).

After about five months back on the building site the big call up to start training came. After the ground course we were all sent home to await type rating/line training. Back to the building site. Around four months of digging holes later I began to smell a rat. Eventually training began. Just before my line check I turned up for a shift to find a rather large South Auckland lad blocking access to the office. Not to worry I thought, I'll meet the Captain at the plane, only to find two more chaps camped out on the tarmac. So, there ended my little adventure with CityJet.

There were many factors that bought them down, both internal and external, but one thing that was certain was that they were using the $22 000 for purposes other than training. Most of it was taken immediately out of the company and used to buy property for various trusts. One new trainee was even asked to write the cheque not to CityJet, but to Steve Mosen directly.

My rather long winded point is that no company should ever require a new employee to pay anything to secure a job. Some airlines do require pilots to have a type rating prior to training which is unfortunate. However this guy isnt doing that. He is straight out trying to get your cash. Maybe he will use it to build the business, maybe not. Either way, its not going into your training. This is not a "Bond". Pretty much all employers put pilots under a bond. This is only for actual costs of trining and is for a reasonable time frame. ie, $3000/one year for a light twin, up to around $30 000/two years for a jet. However, no money changes hands unless the pilot leaves before the bond period is up.

Pleeeaaase dont give this man your money. I strongly doubt that it will lead to a good job and lots of twin hours. I know its easy for people like myself who have got the jet job to dole out advice but I cant help myself.


Post script. After chasing the two owners of CityJet for our money back, including a court judgment that they had to pay, they declared themselves bankrupt and jumped the country. Then low and behold, one of them turned up on "Dragons Den" last year proclaming himself a millionaire property developer!

[Aerozepplin]

Michael Fay got knighted for spending his unethical money on yachts. Some standards we find ourselves applauding.

[stan_02325]

Thanks offcut, I get a feeling that you've just saved me 20k..
i'd buy you a beer if I could

[Krazy]

offcut - very good of you to post what you wrote. A lot of people on here are willing to preach and advise, not many are willing to help others learn from their own mistakes. Good on you!

[LocoDriver]

Very Well said Offcut!:ok:

Cityjet, hmmmmmm, I know one young guy who also lost 20 grand.


I wonder if the CAA 'fit and proper person' vetting via the justice department
would return a 'no' vote to be a licence or document holder for these scam artists.??

Cheers

[biggles7374]

Do you all remember the recent story in the US about the suicide bomber who got through security and onto the plane?......you know the very one that this forum claims that has put off MT from setting up in Hawaii in favour of New Zealand.

What was it Barrack Obama said.....words to the effect of 'I take responsibility.........we had all the intelligence we needed we just did not put it together to work out what was happening'

Well try this for size!!

The cityJet story that Jezza quotes states in it's first paragraph:


The names drop off the tongue with dismal regular
ity: Skybus, Kiwi Airlines, Central Pacific Airlines,
K2000 Airlines and CityJet. All of them tried and failed to take on the major players in the airline industry. All of them met a nasty end.



Kiwi Airlines....where have I heard that before?

the following is an extract from the seemingly endless business failures taken from the Companies Office website:


MT Director Search


1188557−Kiwi Projects Limited (Registered)
912843−Kiwi Airlines Limited (Struck Off)

*

That is not the only failed airline business that has been registered by this guy!!!!!

Have there been others in the past....and did he try a similar scam?

[tail wheel]

PPRuNe does not support scams of this nature. Normally threads of this nature would be removed - to protect those who are intellectually challenged - but on this occasion I left the thread in view, hoping there would be some rational posts.

A fool and his money are easily parted!

Doesn't the concept of a NZ company starting PA31 operations in the US cause alarm bells to ring? Would you not question whether there is a financially viable niche in the Hawaii aviation scene? Indeed, does the proposer actually hold a US FAA air operators certificate and have the requisite aircraft and facilities?

I have no knowledge of this scam but it occurs to me that even if you pay funds into a trust, there must be a trust agreement that gives some form of discretionary control to the scammer - and problems of jurisdiction if you were to test the matter in Court! It will cost far more than your $20,000 loss in legal fees and processes involved in international Court jurisdiction determination.

Why on earth would any employer want to employ Kiwi or Aussie pilots to fly a PA31 in Hawaii? Surely you don't think the US Dept of Immigration would support that scenario when unemployed pilots in the US are a dime a dozen?

I suspect the scammer or his representative may have posted on or viewed this thread and am carrying out an IP search on all posts.

Unbelievable anyone would take this scam seriously! :confused:

Walk away and gain employment on your merit and qualifications. Any employer of integrity will never ask for advance fees or bonds.

Caveat Emptor! := :=

[j3pipercub]

Jezza and the like (anyone who was actually considering this),

Back on page ONE of this thread those who have been there/done that were warning you, yet you pooh poohed most of the concerns and criticisms...so only now you're starting to realise what we see?

The paint is wet, are you going to touch it?

j3

[toppledgyros]

Well I wonder after 170 posts on this topic has anyone actually learnt anything?????.
If you google this businessman's name you get a good indication that in the past things havn't been good for him. Bankrupt and no sign of ever owning another Aviation company other than Kiwi Airlines". :ooh:If you then google his address it comes up with a Maree Neal Consulting
48 Wheturangi Road
Greenlane 1051, Auckland

I have contacted this company and the owner told me that M.T once rented that office/home for a short period. The owner was very surprised that this person was still using the old address and he hadn't resided in that property for quite sometime. If this was ever going to be a legitimate operation things would have added up a lot better from the start.

Well just my 2cents worth.

[biggles7374]

Hey Toppled

Do a Director Search on the NZ Companies website, search under difference variants of his name (ie. without middle names)

880273 Global Express Ltd - Struck off
893972 Quickjet Airways Ltd - Struck Off

...and these are just the ones that look like airlines - there are plenty more.

On the basis that he doesn't seem to be at the address he claims I don't think we need to say any more than that really!

[tail wheel]

The New Zealand Company Search web site (http://www.companies.govt.nz/) is a very interesting site!

Far more revealing than the Australian ASIC web site, particularly their Director Search function. :ok:

[dik cheney]

I think the concrete evidence will be when someone gives the guy 25k and never sees the cockpit of a PA-31. I'd be surprised if this guy even has an aircraft, yet alone an offer of a freight contract. How do you fulfil a freight contract with only one aircraft anyway? It would be hard enough with just the scheduled maintenance, yet alone when the aircraft goes u/s for other reasons.

[j3pipercub]

Off you go then Jezza, just do it already! Quit talking about it and hurry up and get swindled will ya!

[remoak]

JezzaNZ

Everything you said a couple of posts back is completely correct. What you are seeing is a combination of healthy distrust, and the standard Kiwi tall poppy syndrome at work.

Plenty of people have had a rocky road to success - I offer the following examples:

Larry King has interviewed over 30,000 people during his career but his rise to fame for radio work in the 60’s derailed him financially. He was in debt $352,000, charged with grand larceny and accused of stealing $5,000 from a business partner. The charges were dropped but he struggled to get back on his feet and ended up claiming bankruptcy in 1978.

The 16th President of the United States, Abraham Lincoln, declared bankruptcy in 1833 and spent 17 years of his paying off the money that he borrowed from friends to start his business. It took Lincoln 30 years to achieve his goal of becoming President of the United States.

Donald Trump found himself $900 million in debt in 1990 and lost a lot of his business ventures but somehow restructured his debt to be back on top running a billion-dollar empire.

Walt Disney His name may be a stalwart brand today, but early in his career, Disney was just a struggling filmmaker with too many bills. In 1922 he started his first film company with a partner in Kansas City, Kansas.
The two men bought a used camera and made short advertising films and cartoons under the studio name Laugh-O-Gram. Disney even signed a deal with a New York company to distribute the films he was producing. That arrangement didn't work out so well, though, as the distributor cheated Disney's studio.
Without the distributor's cash, Disney couldn't cover his overhead, and his studio went bankrupt in 1923. He then left Kansas City for Hollywood, and after a series of increasingly successful creations, Disney debuted a new character named Mickey Mouse in 1928.
H.J. Heinz When Heinz was just 25 years old, he and two partners began a company that made horseradish. As the legend goes, the spicy root was the first of Heinz's famed 57 varieties, but it wasn't as lucrative as he'd hoped. A business panic in 1875 bankrupted his enterprise, but Heinz's passion for condiments remained strong.
The very next year, Heinz got together with his brother and a cousin to start a new company in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. The reorganized group started making ketchup, and the business took off. Last year the H.J. Heinz Company had over $10 billion in revenue.


Yeah real bunch of scumbags, that lot... :rolleyes:


The point being - be careful, but not dismissive...

[DeltaT]

Remoak I usually agree with a lot of your posts but I must point out that while those people you mention went on to be successful there will be 1000's under similar circumstances who did not make it. (just like airline pilots!)

[Offcut]

There is some sensible opinions being offered here. Believe it or not, a lot of us actually want you guys coming through GA to do well and have good careers. If you can learn from the experiences/mistakes that others made (in and out of the cockpit) then hopefully the industry will be a better place for all.

So, while this guy may be legit and intend to start a real operation with an actual plane and pilots that he pays, he probably isn't. I really hope I'm wrong as the more light twins employing pilots in NZ the better.

HOWEVER, there is no reason to demand a potential employees money up front, in advance, for services that he can't properly detail. There is no reason for him to need any of your money. Requiring a type rating and IFR currency, that he could provide for a nominal fee is one thing (but still not great), but twenty grand is a straight out rip off. Be very clear, this is not a bond. You are buying a job. Which is basically what I did with CityJet. Not only did it hurt me financially, but it lost me a lot of respect amongst my peers, which hopefully I have back.

If it was me, I would go to the interview, answer the questions, and if offerred a job I would agree to signing a bond for the cost of training (3-5k) that is pro-rated over 18 months. He has his labour security and you don't get scammed. If he doesn't go for this its probably a scam.

Now, whoever offerred the free beers........Fine, I'll buy my own.

[remoak]

DeltaT

those people you mention went on to be successful there will be 1000's under similar circumstances who did not make it.I agree with you, however you can't predicate the success or otherwise of this venture on the basis of well-known failures in the aviation industry. He may fail, he may not, but you and others have absolutely no way of knowing for sure which way it will go. There are plenty of informed (and not so informed) guesses being put forward here, but there is simply not enough information be sure one way or the other.

Now, it may well be that the money being asked for will be used for purposes other than training, that it may in fact form part of the start-up capital of the venture (in a roundabout way). As long as the way the money is being used is not illegal, what is the problem here? As long as you walk into the deal with your eyes wide open, and your own lawyer satisfied, it seems a reasonable bet to me.

Let's be quite clear that very few people starting a GA operation are sufficiently cashed up to be able to afford all the training, capital equipment and other costs that typically occur at the beginning of a venture. It's just the nature of the beast. People start operations on a shoestring and try and get through the first 12 months intact. This situation is not helped by a somewhat passive CAA, who allow all sorts of crap to go on. It is even more difficult in the present economic climate, which is a good reason to apply some creative thinking to the problem. Is this guy a charletan, or is he simply thinking outside the traditional aviation box? I don't know either way, but I suggest that nobody on here does either.

This guy might have a good idea and a sound business plan - personally I'd be asking to see the business plan! He might be able to make it happen, in which case the people who go with him will have done very well. There is always the risk (with any venture in any industry) that it might fall on it's face, which has happened to plenty of smart people in the past - remember the recent experiment in NZ real estate, "The Joneses"? Good idea, but didn't work. Should have, but it didn't.

Or the guy might be a crook, but to me this doesn't have the smell of that, not yet anyway. Has this guy ever been convicted (or even charged) with an offence of dishonesty? Apparently not, so perhaps a few of you should dial down the rhetoric a few notches and give the guy a break. Innocent until proven guilty, n'est pas?

Having started a few businesses myself, I know that it is almost always a very difficult and risky business. I have never been bankrupt, but I have seen good ideas inexplicably fail to take, and have had to shut down those ventures and try something else. That's the nature of entrepreneurial business (gee I hope I spelled that right...).

And finally... buying a job is neither new, nor particularly risky. It has been going on in the UK since the early '90s, and in the USA since the '60s. Far more satisfied customers than otherwise.

I have worked for airlines that have gone into receivership with little or no warning, three times now. I have lost a lot more than 20K in the process. There is risk, and then there is risk. You pay your money and take your (hopefully fully informed) chances...

[j3pipercub]

Ok Jezza,

If you're just playing devils advocate, righto. I don't think I'm experienced by any means, but I can just smell a rat here.

[jimmyjones]

Has anyone taken the job?

[hueyshuffle]

Donald Trump ""decided to declare himself bankrupt as it was financially advantageous to him"". I think he might've messed up a bit (too much money spent on toupes maybe?) and i'm not sure how many people lost money as a result...

And Disney was an Anti-Semite like you wouldn't believe.

I agree with your sentiments about taking risks and success being a function of educated guessing and risk management but the examples are a bit off-colour!!

[frigatebird]

So being Pro-Semite, does that make one racist too?

Personally, think the tags are over-rated, there are good and bad in every society, just as there are beautiful and ugly women in every country!

[Horatio Leafblower]

There was a couple of ****box Chieftains for sale in Hawaii for most of the last 2 years - my recollection is hazy but I think they were listed as "PA31 Commuters" or similar, one with 20,000+ TTAF and one with 'only' 15,000 hours.

Both had timex engines and props, original avionics, etc etc etc.

I think they were the cheapest Chieftains on the planet.

I wonder if he's bought them and needs 10 x $20k to cover it? :uhoh:

[beantoo]

What's happened ? Interviews all done ? Anyone taken the job ?

[scroogee]

if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... it's probably ok (that's how it goes, isn't it?)

[el_capitano]

It has been quite a while since anything was said about this company. Just wondering if anyone is working with the company and how the company is progressing???

[biggles7374]

I think the silence speaks for itself!!

Did anyone pay over the cash??

[...still single]

Jezza?


Yoo hoo! Jezza?!?

I already told yez, it's all legit. Jezza is probably busy flying. It's a fully sick gig, Bro!

[lilflyboy262]

The bit that raised my eyebrows was all the people that commented on going to, or doing the interview, all joined pprune at the start of jan this year, when the thread was created..
hmmm..
Would be interesting to see a IP check on them as they all had the same writing style as well.

So whats the news on this company anyway?

[Krazy]

Well since I started the thread I'll give an update. Everything with respect to my interview just got delayed and delayed, never heard back when promised, things in the business never seemed to be going remotely close to schedule, and it seems to have just fallen off the radar (from my perspective). Even when I was told an email with info I had requested was on its way, or details of the interview were on their way - nothing was received. I know others who have had interviews, so it's possible it's just my personality!!!

[j3pipercub]

Hey Jezza,

C'mon, where are you... Going to admit that maybe we were right??:}

j3

[hikoushi]

Hello!

Just wanted to chime in here and give you a little information to help you out if you are still considering spending your money on this position. I have lived in Honolulu for 15 years and spent most of it flying.

1. I've never heard of this operation; no advertising, nothing. Nobody I've asked has heard of it either.

2. 2 piston twin-based operations have shut down here in the last few years, one a failed startup and one a well-respected and established company.

4. The competition in the interisland market is FIERCE. Historically many have tried and failed, many more will. Over the last 5 years we just saw the loss of one MAJOR airline, Aloha, in major part due to an upstart with bad intentions and deep pockets (who is still here); followed by the entry and subsequent failure of an well-financed upstart flying Embraer 170s; recently the major downsizing of 3 turboprop operators.

5. An upstart interisland carrier without HUGE cash reserves, a large fleet of large, efficient aircraft (Q400s, Ejets, 717s, etc), and a dose of insanity does not stand a chance. Even then it's dodgy.


Even if the operation is legitimate (....), it is a gamble to assume it will be around for very long. There is very little hiring here now (lots of good aviation people on the street without jobs), and probably won't be again for a while.

Whatever your choice, good luck to you wherever your career takes you.


Hikoushi

[Braviator]

After reading the posts here I thought I'd go along to the "interview" to see what he had to say, if not for a few laughs, at the very least I'd get a day at the beach up at Surfers. Interview got pushed back, said thanks but no thanks. No beach.

[No junk male]

Krazy and Braviator,
was also promised an interview and that I'd hear from him. I would have attended out of curiosity.....

Good luck guys. Hope you get your dream jobs soon :ok:

[beantoo]

So What has happened ? I too was promised an interview but all contact lost now.... Strange if not Dodgy.

[j3pipercub]

Jeeeeeeeeezzzzzzaaaaaaaaa, where are you??

[coconut99]

J3,

Prob had to pawn his computer and belongings and is now homeless after blowing his savings on the now lost dodgy bond. :E

[DeltaT]

Kick...

This thread has gone quiet, we are all waiting to hear on the good news...errr perhaps 'progress' would be more apt

[j3pipercub]

Why are you hearing crickets?

Do you still have to pay the 20k for the endorsement/ copilot time? Serious quesion.

Is that the loan shark at the door coming to get your kidney as collateral?

j3

[Sqwark2000]

like I'm pulling your left leg!

:hmm: come on j3... sharpen up!

There is no MM at NZAA and pulling the left engine on the ILS is not a tricky situation. Standard IFR renewal exercise...

[tail wheel]

Surprise, surprise! If a deal sounds too good to be true ... it probably is! :ok:

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

Looks like pooh, tastes like pooh, probably is pooh.

[coconut99]

Any update with this one? I know it was all horse piss but I recall some users stating they gave bond $$?

[j3pipercub]

Noticed that little scrote Jezza deleted all of his posts.

[remoak]

I seriously doubt anyone is going to admit to handing over any dosh on here! :=

[Stationair8]

Let me gues they have placed an order for Airbus A380's, and those guys that joined early will be off to France for the endorsements very shortly?

[Aerozepplin]

I paid my bond around three months ago, but no word yet on a start date. Rumour is that the PA-31s have been replaced with C209s since it'll be freight, so SEIFR is cheaper.

I miss my daughter/bond however, so am having second thoughts.

[el_capitano]

So you have gone from a PA-31 to a C209 because of freight and its cheaper, and you have gone from HNL to NZ, hey why not suggest the Airvan it's even cheaper than a 209. You have been waiting 3 months for a start date on a 209, sounds good where do I sign up. NOT...:=:=

What is this dodgy brothers outfit called, or are they still waiting on a name for the proposed business.

[Ixixly]

Ahhh.... El Capitano... "C209"... *cough*

[j3pipercub]

Hook, line, sinker, the bait box and half the jetty...

But seriously, those 209's look like a beast!